Nationality and language

[Hagakure]

Its refreshing to see so many diverse nationalities on this board. I remember someone saying something about rec.martialarts and I remember it being negative. I like this forum and think it has a lot of good things to offer.

Which brings me to my question. There are about 2-4 Japanese members that I have seen (maybe I'm wrong, gomensai) But all you people who don't have the benefit of being born in the birthplace of Kendo (people like myself) how well versed in the spoke Japanese language are you?

I'm an American, and I have lots of trouble with the language. My father always asks me how I communicate with my dojo peers. The United States generally does not enforce foreign language. Okay so they do, I'm wrong, but they only reiforce romance laguages like french and spanish. I feel like I'm missing out. Japanese students learn English as normal curriculum (right or wrong, someone help me. Confound? Hyaku?) Here in the states we are not offered that. Japanese kids will be fluent in English before I can say "Hello, my name is Mark" in Japanese.

That's an exaggeration, but I still have trouble with some calls. I know basic Japanese like moshi-moshi, arigatou, gomen, yare-yare, san, sama, chan, kun etc. I know a wealth of Japanese that is pretty useless on a daily basis from anime ^_^

For instanse (to ask is a momment's shame, but not to ask is a lifetime of shame. One must always avoid shame) What is the call when entering the dojo? What about leaving? I want to make sure I'm correct when adressing the shomen, as its a matter of respect.

I also notice that the younger kids (most of my classes can be made up of young blood Japanese boys and girls, who's parents do a wonderful job of making them proud of their heritage. I think its great that they practice Kendo) at my dojo are not well versed in my culture, even if they know my language. I once told a very young kendoka my name is Mark and he said "what does that mean in Japanese?" when i told him it meant "warrior" in Old Latin, he cocked his head to the side and said "Latin?" An Arabic fellow had the same expirirence. Kendo is a mutual learning expierence for the both of us. That boy is a good friend of mine now, and I teach him about American names, and he teaches me about Japanese. Just another thing Kendo has offered.

Enough about me, how do you guys do with the language (Japanese posters, you feedback is STRONGLY appreciated. I need some help! ^_^)

Regards,
Mark

[KhawMengLee]

Heh, my sensei is Australian so he explains to us in English.

Right now I am training in Malaysia with Toyoda Sensei and I am not used to his husky Japanese. Just the other day he was giving the command mai to the class and I didn't hear him at first...it was pretty funny when the person behind me stabbed me in the back of the neck...

He also explains his instructions in Japanese so I usually watch and follow...

My ex was japanese so I learned a little as well...

[David J]

Yep, having a sensei / sifu who doesnt speak your native language doesnt help IMHO. My old Kung Fu sifu used to mumble a few things in half-English, to which we'd all nod, and pretend we'd understood....he'd demonstrate a technique by doing it once (or twice if you were lucky), and we'd try to copy him...often with comic results :D

I can vouch for how good it is to have someone explain in your native language "no, its more like _this_ than _that_, because...etc", and how much quicker you learn. I think its good to know the proper Japanese term for a technique, but its more important to understand how to do it properly.

I sometimes envy non-native English speakers though. English is becoming the universal 2nd language (blame America / computers / the fact that its easy...discuss), so if its not your first language, its the obvious choice as the most useful one to learn. As an English native - what do you pick? Most other languages arent that useful unless you're going to _that_ country, and lets face it, many are pretty tough to learn in comparison (any Thai speakers here?)

<rei>

Dave

[Confound]

Hagakure, let me preface this by saying i am not picking on you, you just happened to pick up two MAJOR misconceptions about Japan in a row.

The level of Englisg fluency in Japan is stupidly low. As someone who studied a foreign language for 14 years (french), I'd like to think I have a it of experience in learning a second language. However, the way the Japanese school system goes about teaching English is totally ass-forwards. They use rote drills and horribly ineffectual boring textbooks.

to be honest, despite the fact that from junior high to high school, students have 3 english classes a week, they can't speak. My grade nine students can just barely manage "Hello. My name is X. How are you?" They always respond to 'how are you' with 'i'm fine thank you'.

If you find my story far fetched, please check out the forums section of big daikon (http://www.bigdaikon.com) and read the stories of my fellow warriors in the fight to stay alive in a culture, and a bureaucratic system that tells us everyday "You are not wanted here."

Also check out Engrish.com (http://www.engrish.com) another site all about the joys of English in Japan.

Let me illustrate only ONE of the things I've seen in this country. A shirt for a small girl (between 5 and 10 years of age) that says, "Do you like me when I'm wet? Why don't you <insert obvious lewd word here> me. I like <insert the same word here>." (O and there's also the "Hair By Monkeys Europeen Desing sign, and the olive des olive)

I could talk about this forever, but let me conclude by saying that many Japanese make incredibly silly excuses about why they haven't learned English well. I've heard things like "We're Japanese, so we can't speak English." "I don't want to talk to foreigners, I don't need English." and the wonderful "Japanese people can't learn English."

someday i'll expound on katakana english, but that's another rant entirely.

c

[Confound]

Originally posted by David J
Yep, having a sensei / sifu who doesnt speak your native language doesnt help IMHO. My old Kung Fu sifu used to mumble a few things in half-English, to which we'd all nod, and pretend we'd understood....he'd demonstrate a technique by doing it once (or twice if you were lucky), and we'd try to copy him...often with comic results :D <rei>

Dave

I agree wholeheartedly. There isn't a single person in my budokan who speaks English. there is one student who tries to stutter out a word in english every once in a while, but my senseis are 'non english compatible'. Sometimes it gets incredibly frustrating, but there are enough people for me to model, and most of the time there are people to give suggestions.

My Japanese isn't so bad, but at the same time, I'm not fluent by any stretch of the imagination, so I understand your experience. I've been lucky, i'm immersed in the language everyday, i imagine it would be even more difficult in your shoes.

c

[Will]

Confound, see...um...the problem is you're practicing in Japan. I bet if you were practicing in America or somewhere else that they would speak english. But i'm sure you know that

I don't speak Japanese, if I have trouble speaking to someone who can't speak English well, I do my best to understand them. It's just life boys.

Uh Hagakure, about the KIDS not being well versed in your culture, I'm pretty sure that when i was 10 or so I didn't know what latin was.

[Kent Enfield]

I took four years of college Japanese and hang out with Japanese friends. When I did an internship in Japan, that was enough that I could usually make myself understood and get the gist of what was going on around me. Except in the dojo. Trying to understand "old man kendo" Japanese is worse than trying to understand "drunk with his mouth full" Japanese. As far as I can tell, during keiko, all Japanese words and phrases are pronounced as "chuh!"

When it comes to remembering and understanding technique names and other phrases, knowing Japanese helps quite a bit. Many times the translation doesn't convey some of the more subtle meanings of the original. I remember once a visiting sensei was explaing foot work in Japanese. The translator described the motion of the back foot as snapping it up to the right, but the Japanese explantion contained the idea of keeping it attached to the right.

And to pick up on what Confound wrote. Very few people in Japan speak English well. The annoying thing is that those very few people arn't the same as the very few people who think they speak English well. I was at a party and this man kept trying to tell me a story in very bad English, and I kept asking "Did you really mean ... ?" He never got the clue.

[ben]

One exception to the rule of Japanese-people-in-Japan-who-can't-speak-English is Miyasaka sensei, founder of the ANU Kendo Club in Canberra, now returned to Japan. Of course he has the advantage (some would say disadvantage) of having lived in Aus for a while. I last met him at the Summer Camp at Kitamoto, where he was one of the Camp translators. He speaks English better than most native speakers. I asked him where he got his beautiful accent from and he said his Dad used to play BBC lingaphone records to him as a small child!

Of course Shioiri sensei is the other one. :)

[Hagakure]

Will, my point is that he thought my name was "weird" per say. "Mark" is kind of a plain name anyways, but he found it "strange" because it doesn't end in "suke" or "maru" (just common examples)

[Confound]

Originally posted by Will
Confound, see...um...the problem is you're practicing in Japan. I bet if you were practicing in America or somewhere else that they would speak english.


Uh Hagakure, about the KIDS not being well versed in your culture, I'm pretty sure that when i was 10 or so I didn't know what latin was.

Let's deal with number 1 first... I don't mind practicing in Japan, and I have never seen it as a problem. In fact, I am bloody lucky. I get free instruction everyday, and I have another class twce weekly (which costs a measly 3,000 yen a year). In fact, Kendou and tonkatsu are the only things I like about this country.

As for number 2, maybe you were clueless when you were 10, but many of us did know what latin was.

c

[Confound]

Amen to both Kent and Ben. I could not have put it better about people who speak english well here. It is true that some people speak beautifully, but they are rare finds indeed. People who speak a foreign language well in Japan are usually individuals whose parents either lived abroad, or spoke good english themselves.

About old man kendou japanese... i live in an area that is known for its retention of old, country japanese. my ojiisan sensei is sometimes completely incomprehensible, but after about 8 months, I:m starting to get the gist of what he says. he:s a man of few words anyway.

hagakure, about names... my kendou sensei still calls me 'sensei', because he can:t figure out how to say my name. one of the kanji on my tare uses an obscure reading for the character, so it usually gets mispronounced, turning my name into a spanish MAN's name. the kids find it hilarious. unfortunately, it confuses the poor old man even further, so he's dropped all attempts to use any of my proper names.

c

ps ~ excuse the erratic punctuation, this was typed on a japanese computer / keyboard (truly a monstruous thing... too many keys)

[KhawMengLee]

*sigh*

Confound...if a Chinaman was in Canada and you were teaching him kendo, would it be fair for him to expect you to instruct him in Mandarin?

As the saying goes, when in Rome do as the Roman's do...

Japanese have a National Language and it is not English. Go to France and see how accomodating the french are to people who ask if they speak english. The majority of people will say no, even if that is not the case.

The Japanese Kendoka here in Malaysia go to great lenghts to explain in English...I greatly appreciate it. But I would not press them to do so.

Also beware, just because they don't "speak" english doesn't mean they don't understand. I've sat in meetings where the Japanese representitives have translators. People assume they don't speak english so they openly discuss their plans...surprising when they find that the old gentleman sitting across them is a Harvard or Oxford Grad.

I am note trying to pick a fight but at the same time, why should they put heavy emphisis on a language the majority will ever use? Imagine if Japanese was a compulsory second language in the States...how many Americans go to Japan.


Peace
Meng

[KhawMengLee]

Sorry for the errors, I need sleep...

I am not trying to pick a fight but at the same time, why should they put heavy emphisis on a language the majority will ever use? Imagine if Japanese was a compulsory second language in the States...how many Americans actually go to Japan. I think the majority, in their lifetime, will never see the land of the rising sun.

Just like the majority of Japanese will not extensively use English.

Peace,
Meng

[Alex]

sono toori desu!

Never a truer word was spoken Meng.


As for Katakana English, I have enough trouble keeping up with American 'English' sometimes...:D

[Antonin]

What was said about France was true ! it is not that no-one speaks english in France, we just have the feeling it is rude not even to make an effort to communicate in the local language.
I think it is overtly naive to expect to learn something so fundamentally japanese as kendo purelly in english. just as it would be naive to expect to learn baseball in Europe without learning English (why we would do that is beyond me, but let's assume it for the sake of the example. ). it is true that English is becoming a de-facto vehicular language worldwide, nevertheless, the fact that some english speakers realise is that is complements but does not replace the other languages, and that to explore the culture of a given country and talk to the "locals", you'll still need other languages...
Don't get me wrong, i am the first one to wish that all these wonderfull kendo books were available in English and that all the sensei could communicate their wisdome to us more widelly (although in French would be even better of course...). But since it is not possible, we'll have to learn Japanese to accomodate the senseis and not the other way around, I'm afraid.
Antonin

[Confound]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
*sigh*

Confound...if a Chinaman was in Canada and you were teaching him kendo, would it be fair for him to expect you to instruct him in Mandarin?

Great scot. I was only empathising with the situation of another individual in a similar situation. I don't recollect any point in my post where I explicitly complained about being instructed, I only commented that I could understand the frustration of his situation.

As a matter of fact, as a purist, I actually LIKE studying in Japanese. It is frustrating on occasion, but that's part of the process. no matter what language you or your teacher speak, there will be times in your study of ANYTHING (kendou, iaido, shogi, ikebana, figure drawing, sculpting, equestrian sports, name any old thing you like) where you will be frustrated.

c

ps - i have never asked to be taught in english as a matter of fact. i have never asked to be coddled either. i keep up as best i can, which isn't always easy, but at the end of the day, I know that my attempts have been worthwhile, which is the end goal isn't it?

[mingshi]

Hey guys,

I'm a foreigner to the country where I'm in right now. I came, and long before that, I know I've to speak and learn English. That's part of the education. Can I complain that "no one is speaking Cantonese here!!" or "their Chinese is really terrible"?? Things that's not of your culture you'll just have to learn. Now I always blame that my spoken English is really full of grammatical mistakes with an ugly Cantonese accent, which is something that cannot be demonstrated in this forum.

In my dojo here in UK they teach Kendo in English. The technical terms stay the same, like the regular Reigi and "Kagari keiko-----!!!!", but instructions are in English --"Hey Jenny don't do this...". What I find very interesting is that, although there's only a small number of kendoka who studied Japanese before, those who know do intent to think in Japanese during practice. Sometimes you'll notice by their Kiai. A couple of times people had actually asked "Daiijobu ka?", and I've to say "i-i des" all the time (yeah the missed dou cuts on my thigh!!). I don't know if this is a "Japanese Complex" going on?

I remember I saw some Taiwanese kendo visitors back in Hong Kong. During their warm-up when they do haya-suburi, they count in Mandarin!!

There is a education movement called "mother-language teaching" going on in Hong Kong. The officials say it'll be easier for student to understand the lessons in their mother language rather than in English. Still in a debate, which will go off-topic again if I went into the details, I don't know who's correct.

Anyway Kendo is one of the thing which motivates me to learn some proper Japanese, apart from understanding the dialogues in Manga/Anime.....

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by mingshi

A couple of times people had actually asked "Daiijobu ka?", and I've to say "i-i des" all the time (yeah the missed dou cuts on my thigh!!). I don't know if this is a "Japanese Complex" going on?
...........

They don't do that at Nenriki do they? lol

Hyaku

[Hagakure]

Whoa! I wasn't saying it should be compulsuary to learn English! We don't even GET THE OPTION in the states! Any studying of an asian language where I come from, most will see as a futile attempt.

And I mean Japanese for the dojo.

I agree Khaw Meng Lee. I have been subjected to learning French for the past three years. During those years my school system could have offered an asian language, as I intend on going to Japan. No offense to the French, but I have no reason nor intention of going there.