Locking Threads [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

satsumaruma

14th December 2006, 03:25 AM

At the risk of having this thread 'locked' I feel I must raise my concern at censorship being undertaken on these forums.

Over a year ago I wrote two articles which I duly submitted to the BKA newsletter in the hope that they would be published. The BKA always cry out for contributors so I thought I would write a few for them.

The first was a nice piece extolling what a great time I had at a couple of seminars - this was published.

The second was in response to a couple of bad ideas by the BKA (which have been duly dropped or severely amended - I make no comment) but this was not published. When I queried why I received the most horendous email from someone who I will not name because he does not frequent these forums to defend himself. When I pointed out the flaws in his arguments why my stuff should not be published ( and I did this in a most reasonable way because I hoped that my article could still be published) I was subjected to abuse. I will admit that I then indulged myself in some 'baiting' of this individual ( I know I know) and I contacted a certain UK MJER Nanadan Renshi who was equally appalled at the abuse I had received.

Now personally I couldn't give a flying f**k at abusive language but I wish to draw all your attention to two things.

In his rantings ( and I do not overplay this word) he said that the type of things that I had written were best suited to Forums such as ...and I quote...Kendo world Forums. I am not saying that it is right to rant about the BKA on these forums but a BKA official has personally told me to do exactly that.

To my knowledge this individual has not been brought to task about his attitude - perhaps it is not my place to know.

Please note, and hopefully there are some on here who will support this, I am far from being anti BKA. I actually think it is an excellent organisation.

But I also think that its members must be allowed a voice and if they deny such on its own 'private' newsletter then where do members vent their frustrations. I actually think it is wrong to do this on open forums but what are the options.

I also think open and honest deabte/discussion is preferable to censorship simply because that will only lead to a festering kind of resentment. Also how does any organisation grow unless it knows what people truly believe, what their hopes are?

I suspect that this posting will be misinterpreted by the more anally retentive but I hope some will understand why I felt the need to say...

Let's talk (so long as we do so in a reasonable manner).

Yours, In sincerity

Lee

PhilMcLaughlin

14th December 2006, 04:18 AM

well, there are 2 forums where there isnt so much of an international presence

kendo-uk on yahoo groups

www.kendouk.net

neither of those are moderated by BU members (but they are modearated as all lists do these days) so in theory should be a better place if you really need to discuss things in the open

but bear in mind the people yove alluded in your post to are easily identifiable so you might want to be careful in the words you choose !

Really these are internal matters for the UK community, best dealt with that way (IMNSHO)

best regards

Phil..

Neil Gendzwill

14th December 2006, 04:23 AM

I locked that other thread because the fellow who started it clearly joined KW with an agenda, and it all seemed fairly petty and internal to BKA. If I'm out of line in moderating in that fashion, I'm sure Alex and Hamish will let me know. I normally keep a pretty light hand, just punting spammers.

If more senior members want to discuss BKA internals, I suppose that's OK but I think it's extremely ill-advised.

Old Warrior

14th December 2006, 04:26 AM

At the risk of having this thread 'locked' I feel I must raise my concern at censorship being undertaken on these forums.

It is one thing to decry censorship by a government, a monopoly or an agency charged with a significant public function. A privately operated open forum can police itself as it pleases. If you feel aggreived take your free time reading elsewhere. I guess, I believe that the one who pays the bills and maintains the site gets to regulate its content. If enough people are offended, the owners will have to decide whether to change their editorial policy or risk falling into oblivion. In any event, the privilege to post in someone else's open forum should be exercised with dignity and restraint.

Newbie

14th December 2006, 04:29 AM

I think you've entirely missed the point of what Sats was saying, Old Warrior.

JSchmidt

14th December 2006, 05:54 AM

well, there are 2 forums where there isnt so much of an international presence

kendo-uk on yahoo groups

www.kendouk.net (http://www.kendouk.net)
Phil..

Phil, kendouk.net is not a forum as much as an information hub. Apart from exchanging letters, you cannot actually have a discussion there.

There is the yahoo group, but I don't understand it's purpose, as discussion is discouraged.

PhilMcLaughlin

14th December 2006, 08:03 AM

Phil, kendouk.net is not a forum as much as an information hub. Apart from exchanging letters, you cannot actually have a discussion there.

There is the yahoo group, but I don't understand it's purpose, as discussion is discouraged.

info hub - ok i think i understand that

but yaho group ?i dont understand that - its an open forum ???

can you be specific - pm me if you need to ;-)

cheers

Hisham

15th December 2006, 12:14 AM

But I also think that its members must be allowed a voice and if they deny such on its own 'private' newsletter then where do members vent their frustrations. I actually think it is wrong to do this on open forums but what are the options.

I think Satsuma's point is clear, and i think it is true for any organisation that has a long term vision, as the KW "elders" pointed out, it should be discussed internally but the thing is here, this senior member of the BKA doesn't see it that way.

Although i don't know the full story, according to what you said, i do empathise.

PhilMcLaughlin

15th December 2006, 01:20 AM

I think Satsuma's point is clear, and i think it is true for any organisation that has a long term vision, as the KW "elders" pointed out, it should be discussed internally but the thing is here, this senior member of the BKA doesn't see it that way.

Although i don't know the full story, according to what you said, i do empathise.

From Satsuramas public profile

Art and Grade:
Iaido -Yondan: Jodo -Nidan; Kendo - refuse to grade with the BKA

Im guessing here ;-) but I think he might also have an axe to grind, so without seeing what the 'contentious' text was its hard to say. Frankly Im not bothered

Hisham

15th December 2006, 02:02 AM

That is why i wrote:"Although i don't know the full story, according to what you (Satsurama) said, i do empathise". Which means my view is subject to change.
Although i don't train with partners my zanshin is still on:calm:

satsumaruma

15th December 2006, 02:04 AM

From Satsuramas public profile

Art and Grade:
Iaido -Yondan: Jodo -Nidan; Kendo - refuse to grade with the BKA

Im guessing here ;-) but I think he might also have an axe to grind, so without seeing what the 'contentious' text was its hard to say. Frankly Im not bothered

Can see where you are coming from with this but actually ...No, I do not have an "axe to grind".

When I joined these forums I was still in the middle of my emailing sessions with the aforementioned BKA 'person'. So the "refuse to grade" statement was written with a little pique. I still have not graded in Kendo and am not that bothered TBH - I have enough on with work, Iai and Jo.

The point of this posting was ostensibly to point out the BKA say their newsletter is not a venue for people to air their views and that a forum like KWF is. Yet I noted that whenever anyone says anything negative about the BKA on these forums it seems to get blocked at some point. This is no criticism of Neil ( and I mean that) , it is just that there seems to be no place that anyone can bemoan, whinge, identify shortcomings of the BKA. It all seems very wrong.

We either have freedom of speech or we do not. I do not support "freedom of speech" as a means to say what you like how you like; there must be responsibility attached to free speech. But if someone wishes to criticise something they disagree with then I take the view that they should be able to...and I say again... as long as this is done in a reasonable and non-inflammatory way. (explaining this could take the length of a full dissertation so I hope you all get mt drift).

Oh and Phil - did you miss the part where I wrote I actually like the BKA?

Regards

Lee

Neil Gendzwill

15th December 2006, 02:13 AM

We either have freedom of speech or we do not.That's a seperate issue from any BKA axe-grinding, and one that is commonly misunderstood. Freedom of speech does not apply to web forums, in the same manner that it does not apply to private homes. Freedom of speech means being free to say anything you like without restriction by the government. But in a privately held venue like this, you are subject to the rules laid down by the owners. Many forums forbid foul language, for example. Similarly, if someone is making a scene in your house, you throw them out. This is not censorship. Censorship would come if you set up your own web presence, at your expense, and then had the government regulate what you say.

Now I'm not the owner, and I don't set the rules here. I've been allowed to moderate the forums and I try to do that, as I've said before, with a light hand**. If you feel that I'm being heavy-handed here, you're welcome to pm Alex or Hamish and ask for a clarification. I'll of course abide by whatever they say.

**Except for spammers, who are banned instantly and without recourse.

PhilMcLaughlin

15th December 2006, 02:14 AM

Nope i saw that, but on the other hand you clearly have a beef with someone in the BKA. On the one had it could be censorship on the other it could be good editorial policy - I dont know

Im concerned though that what is essentially a personal issue with you and someone in the hierarchy could be intrepreted by the KWF readers as a bigger issue

For instance if you put a forum up on your club site & used that to air your views, I think that would be fine.

I can see why youd want to have a go (and of course you have the right) BUT I still dont think this is the place & FWIW thats my opinion.

BTW Ive had more than one PM from respected friends overseas asking me if things really are so bad - QED

Anyway all of this is subjective & i wish you luck

Neil Gendzwill

15th December 2006, 02:17 AM

For instance if you put a forum up on your club site & used that to air your views, I think that would be fine.
These days, you don't even have to spend any money. He could create a yahoo news group called "BKA Sux" and have at it. I think that would be a kendo career-limiting move, and it's much better to try to work internally, but that's just me.

satsumaruma

15th December 2006, 02:35 AM

Neil,

agree with what you say and of course a private site has the right set its own rules and govern them as it sees fit.

Phil,

NO I do not have a beef with someone in the BKA - but I did get abusive emails from someone within the BKA and did not wish to come across this person at the time it was happening.

Setting up a private site might give some people a sense or satisfaction but it would not resolve anything at all - it would just be name calling.

The reason why I think it is better to discuss thing openly is that people can then understand where you are coming from - you may not agree and that is fine. It is plain we are not agreeing absolutely on this but I support your right to disgree with me. Voltaire had a great saying on this.

My concern is that when we stifle people from being able to make their views known albeit in a reasonable manner we create problems for ourselves. I was just pointing out that maybe some people felt the need to speak about the BKA simply because there is no process to do so within the organisation. It would be great if there was but there isn't. Also, a senior person within that body said to air views on this site ( it is even listed on the links page) so we should not be surprised when people do exactly that. Of course we then come back to Neils point that KWF have the right to stop such things.

And no I don't think things are so bad - I have had similar PMs .

Right, off to Iai now.

Some interesting views. Keep them coming

Kenzan

15th December 2006, 02:39 AM

Rather than claim censorship, or freedom of speech quashing, wouldn't it be more sincere to just say, "I ask that my voice be heard on this subject?"
Just a thought.

PhilMcLaughlin

15th December 2006, 03:17 AM

Phil,

NO I do not have a beef with someone in the BKA - but I did get abusive emails from someone within the BKA and did not wish to come across this person at the time it was happening.

OK i see that but, if it was a) that bad & b) unjustified you could have written to the EC and complained & it would have to b discussed at an EC meeting so you do have recourse.

Setting up a private site might give some people a sense or satisfaction but it would not resolve anything at all - it would just be name calling.

The reason why I think it is better to discuss thing openly is that people can then understand where you are coming from - you may not agree and that is fine. It is plain we are not agreeing absolutely on this but I support your right to disgree with me. Voltaire had a great saying on this.

well look at it this from my perspective

I can see your post & your opinion but I have absolutely no idea whether its a reasonable, balanced or justified one or plain bad attitude at being slapped down - all those things could be true - no offense intended im trying to get accross to you that while you know the context, no one else does & its important

My concern is that when we stifle people from being able to make their views known albeit in a reasonable manner we create problems for ourselves. I was just pointing out that maybe some people felt the need to speak about the BKA simply because there is no process to do so within the organisation. It would be great if there was but there isn't.

Not true - you can have an item added to the AGM agenda, turn up and speak your piece in person. Admittedly not ideal as its a once a year happening but to say there is no process isnt true & gives the wrong impression

Also, a senior person within that body said to air views on this site ( it is even listed on the links page) so we should not be surprised when people do exactly that. Of course we then come back to Neils point that KWF have the right to stop such things.

Ok fair enough - but again I dont like to see it done this way - I guess we just differ on that one :-)

cheers

stephanie dee

15th December 2006, 04:48 AM

Right, i've got a question, and its open to anyone who can answer it. What exactly is all the bitching about, and why does everyone seem to hate the BKA?

Now I might be a low grade Kendoka/Iaido person, so they never contact me except to give me that newsletter and to tell me when to renew my membership, i;ve never had to deal with them or anything so I really dont know anything. So what is everyone in a beef about?

DISCLAIMER! I am not saying that EVERYONE is angry or hates the BKA. I am not pointing the finger at anyone. It just seems that a lot of people have a lot of problems with the BKA and I just want to know why.

ScottUK

15th December 2006, 10:36 PM

Now I might be a low grade Kendoka/Iaido person, so they never contact me except to give me that newsletter and to tell me when to renew my membership, i;ve never had to deal with them or anything so I really dont know anything. So what is everyone in a beef about?Steph,

As I have been involved with the BKA for some years now, I have seen (and suffered the wrath of) BKA internal politics. However, is the BKA any different to any other organisation? No. Could it be improved? Of course - but like I said this is the same in any organisation/association.

However, is an email of abuse acceptable? No chance.

But I also think that its members must be allowed a voice and if they deny such on its own 'private' newsletter then where do members vent their frustrations. I actually think it is wrong to do this on open forums but what are the options.I agree that internal issues should remain internal, but there needs to be an open outlet - can it be discussed at the AGM or would you prefer a wider audience, seeing as not everyone attends the AGM?

satsumaruma

16th December 2006, 01:29 AM

Steph,

I personally am not angry with the BKA - i just wished to point out that when people are annoyed by something there should be some means of changing things or just to get things off ones chest. Speak to Keith if you want to know why some people are in a tizzy with the BKA ( ot at least a certain part of it) - don't know if he will tell you much mind.

Scott,

totally agree with you that things should ideally stay internal - some things have already been discussed at AGM's - and many of us know where that led to. TBH - I am not posting here to have a go at the BKA; I just wanted to say that I think that if someone would like to say if something is not right with any organisation they should be allowed to (up to a pointy and as long as they do it without being inflammatory or insulting).

Lee

kartoffelngeist

16th December 2006, 06:46 AM

Rather than claim censorship, or freedom of speech quashing, wouldn't it be more sincere to just say, "I ask that my voice be heard on this subject?"
Just a thought.

I think kenzan's got it right here (as ever...). The locking of the relevant thread isn't so much a question of censorship as a practical issue.
Bringing the issue up at an AGM or in the BKA newsletter could lead to something happening about it, but the thread was quite obviously created for bitching about fees.

I think Sats' issue is a separate (and possibly more valid) one...

spikie1

19th December 2006, 02:25 AM

im new to kendo and as for an agenda it was sugested to me that i voice my complaints in a public forum the bka dont have one so i looked for the only public kendo forum i could find
<This one ^^^^ and got locked and told i would be banned if i persisted with the post on that subject i honestly expect to be banned for this post .But the guy doing the locking was canadian and i guess they dont have a freedom of speach in that country an for england we are allowed to do anything until they bring in a law that says otherwise
i guess some people are born with freedoms and others have them taken away
as for new to the forum that i am but it wont make me stay if everything i say gets locked and then i get banned would it you ?

Paikea

19th December 2006, 02:57 AM

Ignatz

19th December 2006, 03:46 AM

Since he can't use the "English is not my first language" excuse I have to say, uh. . . . .?

Newbie

19th December 2006, 04:23 AM

it wont make me stay if everything i say gets locked and then i get banned would it you ?

Maybe if you weren't openly insulting a respected sensei on a public forum... you see, Sats we know and love has made his point and hasn't been a twerp about it. You sound like you're trying to cause trouble and create a flame war. There's a very big difference. If this isn't your intention, then you need to learn a lot about your mother tongue.

Kingofmyrrh

19th December 2006, 09:24 AM

Hisham

20th December 2006, 12:47 AM

You're going to have to be coherently offensive if you want to get banned...

Game Set and Match :D

Paikea

20th December 2006, 11:18 AM

Game Set and Match :DYeah King, nice one there...

kartoffelngeist

13th January 2007, 09:57 PM

While we're being less than savoury abt the BKA...

I'd sent the application form off with my cheque and all, then this morning it all comes back to me with a little note asking me to resend it to the correct address as the one on the form was two years old.

Now, would it not have made a lot more sense for whoever sent it back just to send it on to the new address rather than to me? They obviously had to pay for the envelope/stamp to send it to me anyway...

Sorry, just thought I'd get my little rant out...wasn't worth a new thread...

tilt

13th January 2007, 10:37 PM

Yes well, I sent off my cheque to upgrade from temporary to full membership last October, and have received nothing other than a rather perfunctory email saying they were busy with renewals and I would be dealt with at the end of january.

ScottUK

13th January 2007, 10:44 PM

Maybe the membership secretary has a thousand other applications to do too...? :D

kartoffelngeist

13th January 2007, 10:47 PM

He'll have a thousand and one when I send mine back off...

:p

tilt

14th January 2007, 03:17 AM

Maybe the membership secretary has a thousand other applications to do too...? :D

Thats maybe true - but if an organisation takes four months to process a new membership, it does leave one with a somewhat negative impression. It's a good job for the BKA that I can't take my £50 elsewhere.

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 03:22 AM

Yeah you can... :)

Don't forget that the staff are volunteers...

tilt

14th January 2007, 03:23 AM

Yeah you can... :)

Well yes, but that would mean finding another Kendo Klub....

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 03:33 AM

The choice is yours buddy:

a) stop moaning and do more keiko, or
b) complain about a poxy bit of paper and find somewhere else to train

Not a complicated choice is it? :D

tilt

14th January 2007, 04:53 AM

The choice is yours buddy:

a) stop moaning and do more keiko, or
b) complain about a poxy bit of paper and find somewhere else to train

Not a complicated choice is it? :D

That is exactly the kind of unhelpful but wholly predictable reaction that does a disservice to the organisation in the face of criticism from its members. May I remind you Sir, that I have paid £50 for what you refer to as "a poxy bit of paper" - you undervalue the BKA by your irritation which neither assists nor reassures me as a new member.

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 05:18 AM

I'm not here to reassure anyone. I am however kinda sick of all the bullshit I keep reading on here. Satsumaruma posted an interesting thread. Kartoffelngeist had a valid point too, but this thread has now degenerated into a pissy little moan. What is your point? You are a member, you are insured - do you want more?

I get insurance for both myself and my students, access to the BKA seminars/teachers, shit-hot teachings, grades recognised by the ZenKenRen etc etc etc. A response to my membership application is nowhere near as important as the above.

I assume if you've paid £50 you practice kendo and iai/or jo. May I ask who your teachers are?

sjp

14th January 2007, 05:22 AM

We have a volunteer for membership secretary then come the AGM.
Must remember to propose you.

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 05:24 AM

Ippon to the Stokey fella...

tilt

14th January 2007, 05:35 AM

Ippon to the Stokey fella...

You may wish to reduce this adult discussion to point scoring- I do not. You've just confirmed what I long suspected.

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 06:02 AM

You need to chill out, practice more and fret less.

SJP is spot-on - if you have an issue, don't moan - FIX IT. If the BKA ain't making you happy, make changes. Its OUR association.

tilt

14th January 2007, 06:36 AM

I'm looking forward to many fruitful years within the BKA and I'm sure they are doing sterling work. However, my experience so far has been disappointing - but I understand why it has been so.

As you point out, moaning and doing nothing is unproductive, but there do appear to be issues that I hear week on week that perhaps should be addressed.

We should be able to discuss this stuff, without unnecessary criticism, reaction or personality bashing and the giving of negative rep points (thank you), and I'm sure that Kendo Associations all over the world suffer from the same moans, in-fighting and nay-sayers. Group any people together and you invite the Good, the Bad and of course, the Ugly.

I do enjoy the Kendo panacea for all moaning which is "practice more" - because it's cold outside, and it's rather pleasant sat on this sofa in front of the TV with my feet up.....:o

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 06:53 AM

Then moan about something useful that is worthwhile.

I checked on our guys last week (with the BKA officer) to make sure they had all renewed and therefore were insured. The email I got back was polite but it stated in no certain terms that this time of year is the busiest for them, what with all the renewals etc. and they would address my concern as soon as they could.

Maybe we should give them a break (for a month or two hehe!) and let them get on with it?

Like I said - its just a bit of paper...

and the giving of negative rep points (thank you)Don't blame me.

kartoffelngeist

14th January 2007, 06:58 AM

I wasn't meaning to start a bitching-session about the BKA or anything. I was just pointing out something that someone did that seemed a bit silly to me.

Lets all relax over a nice pint of something heavy...

ScottUK

14th January 2007, 07:00 AM

I think you had a valid point...

kartoffelngeist

14th January 2007, 07:04 AM

So do I, it was fairly trivial though...;)

tilt

14th January 2007, 07:13 AM

So do I, it was fairly trivial though...;)

Yeah and look what you started. :cheeky:

satsumaruma

14th January 2007, 09:41 PM

Been emailing back and forth with the treasurer recently, David Spacey and he told me that so far he has had over a thousand membership applications to deal with. that is a lot of work for soemone who is doing it in his spare time. ( alongside his own practice, family life etc).

I would also say that whilst I would be in the vanguard of saying when something is wrong I feel that this must apply when something is done right.

And I will say that David was incredibly helpful in sorting out my problem. No fuss, no silliness just good advice.

Like Scott said, "what more do you want".

Things go wrong ;people make mistakes; shit happens.

What is important is how they try and put things right.

Lee

PhilMcLaughlin

15th January 2007, 02:19 AM

Thats maybe true - but if an organisation takes four months to process a new membership, it does leave one with a somewhat negative impression. It's a good job for the BKA that I can't take my £50 elsewhere.

I suspect that not many folks would flood the forum in tears if you did (actually you can if you really want to - just takes a bit of searching - , then youd learn what a difficult organisation to belong to will do for you ;-)

If youre staying then come on give the guys (who do the work) a break, they have lives as well

If every member wanted a reply, not only would that cost (say) 1000 x 35p (inc materials) thats £350 thats surely better spent elsewhere, but assuming it takes 5mins to write the reply & process it thats over 80 hours work -

As SJP says - if you dont like it please volunteer your services to help rather than having a moan - its not constructive

good luck with your studies

Kuma

15th January 2007, 03:17 AM

Is it possible, even in the Flames section, to post a negative opinion without getting the "practice more" garbage? What does that have to do with anything? If certain forum members were in my kitchen this morning and had heard me sigh when I opened my muffins to discover that they had all gone moldy, I'm sure that I would've been told, "Don't like moldy muffins? Well, go buy more muffins then go keiko."

It's great! It works for everything:

"Hey you bastard! You nearly hit me! Watch where you're driving!"
"Why don't you come chauffeur me about? Quit complaining! Do kendo!"

"I hate the war in Iraq, and now Bush wants to send even more troops!"
"You don't like it? Run for president, and practice more!"

"I hate people telling me to shut up and practice."
"Quit moaning! If you'd just shut up and practice, then I wouldn't have to tell you to shut up and practice."

I'd say that I planned on using that response myself in the future, but I'll hardly be able to what with all the shutting up and practicing that I need to get to.

ScottUK

15th January 2007, 04:24 AM

Is it possible, even in the Flames section, to post a negative opinion without getting the "practice more" garbage? What does that have to do with anything?Maybe this:

It's a good job for the BKA that I can't take my £50 elsewhere.The guy is putting an adminstrative issue over his keiko. This 'issue' doesn't affect his practice, yet he has chosen to whine about it on here. We were merely suggesting that if he practices more, he'll realise that his little problem is actually sod all in the grand scheme of things.

Go do kendo, make love to someone/something, have a beer, watch Tom & Jerry - whatever it is that keeps you happy. Just don't moan about pointless shit here... :)

kartoffelngeist

15th January 2007, 04:44 AM

I feel bad about bringing the thread back, I was only meaning to be light hearted.

I think the 'less talk, more keiko' thing can be overused, especially on a forum which was created for talking, rather than keiko. OTOH, it can be true in a lot of cases.
Some people, especially in the early stages of learning kendo instinctively want to intellectualise everything and learn it, when a lot of kendo can only be picked up through practicing it.
In this case, I think Scott was pointing out that it doesn't affect tilt' ability to do kendo. It is just a piece of paper in that sense, it won't change his kendo if it comes tomorrow or in a few weeks. So best to go and do kendo than to worry about it.

That's how I saw it...

Go do kendo, make love to someone/something, have a beer, watch Tom & Jerry

Scott, that sounds like my perfect evening...

ScottUK

15th January 2007, 04:51 AM

That's how I saw it...That's exactly how I meant it.

Scott, that sounds like my perfect evening...In what order? :D

kartoffelngeist

15th January 2007, 04:55 AM

That's exactly how I meant it.

In what order? :D

The order you said, kendo, make love to someone/something, beer, Tom & Jerry...

What more could you want in one day?

ScottUK

15th January 2007, 04:59 AM

I'd swap the beer for a large Cola, but yeah... :)

kartoffelngeist

15th January 2007, 05:01 AM

I'll have your beer then...

tilt

15th January 2007, 05:19 AM

As SJP says - if you dont like it please volunteer your services to help rather than having a moan - its not constructive

good luck with your studies

I shall certainly enquire whether I can be of service.

ScottUK

15th January 2007, 05:24 AM

Seeya both at the AGM... :)

kartoffelngeist

15th January 2007, 06:50 AM

I'll be there if I can. I always try to go to associations' AGMs, then I can feel justified complaining about things I voted against.:p

Practical problems might get in the way here though...

The great I AM

15th January 2007, 08:40 PM

Tilt, David, Like me, is a volunteer doing an extraordinarily time consuming job with no reward other than the expressed thanks of an extremely small number of people as a service to the Association.

Never mind Scott "doing a disservice", the sort of reaction that you give when someone with a job of their own and a life of their own tells you that they are busy with every other renewal and more besides is what I call doing a disservice. I know the BKA isn't a speedy organisation, but bitching about the efforts of volunteers offering their services for free, just because they don't send you back your membership papers as fast as the Dennis the Menace fan club does is just plain ridiculous.

Lets all relax over a nice pint of something heavy...Lets keep my cock out of this shall we.