BAFFLED - Need some insight

[Old Warrior]

I am baffled. I am now in my 9th month of Kendo and I have passed 4 exams. I have a sense of bouting but I have a world to learn. I faithfully come to class 3-4 days a week and I try as hard as my 55 year old body will allow. I know my bouting skills are okay (for my experience) because I can hold my own with people who have studied 3 times as long as I.

Tonight Master Seong came to me and through a translator indicated he felt that I would do better trying something different. He gave me a shoto and a 37 shinai and spent the class teaching me the basics of nito. What am I to make of this?
I thought I was progressing pretty well and I know my persistence is respected. Considering how much I have been enjoying the classes I don't have a clue what to think.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[sminki]

I wouldn't quite use "holding my own with people who have studied 3 times as long" as a guideline for anything. Especially if that "holding my own" means that you're not losing. If you're beating people who's done kendo for 27 months or more than 2 years after 9 months of learning, congratulations and keep working hard. But keep in mind that there's a certain depth in one's kendo that only comes progressively through time whether it's 9 months or 27 months or 27 years, so I would just remember that.

Anyway, in most cases, nito is typically practiced by people who's probably 4 dan and above. My sensei usually says "to do nito, you should learn jodan first". And we have all seen arguments about using jodan after you attain a certain level.

Seong sensei takes a bit of a different approach. I think that he feels that nito is a different method from itto kendo and that people who are better suited for nito (for whatever reason) should just developing nito skills sooner rather than later.

My advice is why not learn both? Continue practicing itto, but take up nito as well. It's an opportunity that most people don't have as beginners. Nor do all senseis teach nito or jodan. Don't try to read into it too much as a negative thing. Enjoy it.

[slidercrank]

OW:

It is a fact that no one who posts here is a nanadan, therefore it is unlikely that anyone can offer you more insight than those already given to you by Master Seong. He's been training you since day 1 and knows your kendo better than anyone else here. He's obviously given some thought about you, so just take this lavish attention from him as a compliment and do exactly as you're told.

Out of curiosity, is Master Seong telling you to hold the long sword in the left arm or right arm?

[sminki]

OW, correct me if I'm wrong, but if my memory serves me correct, doesn't he hold the shoto with his left? It's been a while since he's used nito on me...

[Old Warrior]

slidercrank

Very interesting inquiry. As you probably remember I put 20 years into epee fencing. My right arm/hand is strong and my left is weak. At first, he put the shoto in my right hand and the longer shinai in my left. This way the footwork remained the same as itto (Right foot forward)

He could see I couldn't wield the long shinai in my left. So, he reversed them, said "Better for you?" and went on from there. He just seemed prepared to work with whatever I could do best. I am getting the impression that while I am sure his skills are classical, he has a very practical approach and wants me to do the best I can. He just works around my limitations.

[Old Warrior]

sminki

I was in a daze tonight but it appeared to me that he was completely ambidextrous. But, I sure he has a preference.

[slidercrank]

OW:

Nito is very flexible (or maybe it's because so few do it, the rule guys can't be bothered enough to draw up rules about it). There are no fixed rules for which hand to hold which shinai and which foot forward.

Sounds like Master Seong is really tailoring his instruction to you according to your physical ability and experience. Perhaps you alreday have a good eye for distance from your fencing days, that you can judge the distance without having to hold the shinai in front of you.

I remember Moocow65, a team USA player who does nito, wrote quite a bit about nito in a couple mesages earlier. Perhaps you can search his name and read up.

[Old Warrior]

Moocow said:

Jodan and nito are basically one strike kamae. There are no kote men combos. Because of this, more seme, timing, spirit, speed, and all that other good kendo stuff are needed to be really accomplished at these two kamae. With seigan, you can rely on multiple strikes and feints and other tactics. With jodan and nito, you can't do that, you have to rely on the other stuff i.e. seme and timing. And to the person who called jodan and nito "players" weirdos, go tell Chiba sensei and Toda sensei that.

Perhaps, I am being told in a subtle way, that I should focus my energy on learning a few things that I may be able to do - well. My greatest concern is not fitting in with the usual class routine; which I really enjoy. I wonder if nito people also devote the same time to itto. As they say "Life is a journey" - I'll see what's in store for me when it happens.

[Kiki]

OW

This all sounds good. I think your sensei has not only seen your potential but feels his time will not be wasted on you. To me this says a lot about your character. Congratulations and enjoy the process.

[Karaken]

OW - for your info, only Nito person during EUSKF tourny was 3 kyu. And he was pretty good. BTW, many Jodan or Nito people use it only for Team competition not for individual ( not all of course ). I'm just guessing that Master Seong recognize your physical aspect and maybe you could handle Nito better than anyone else. If we get together during summer, maybe I'll ask Master Seong.. I certainly can't handle nito or jodan very well.

Center..

[Old Warrior]

My only hope is that the change was not engendered by some behavior on my part that was perceived as negative. I would think not, because one couldn't be more respectful or diligent in attendance, than I.

Saturday's class was really exhausting. The stress on the shoulders, forearms and hands is much greater in nito. I am developing new muscles and working on new muscle memories. And, since I am holding the shoto in my left, the stance is now reversed with my left foot forward. This means I am pushing off with the right and new callouses need to be formed.

It is a real challenge. I seem to be getting a sense that I became the dojang nito dummy because it requires somewhat less mobility than itto and (if done well) is a problem for other people to deal with who are not used to facing it. Hopefully, it will allow me to advance my skills and deal with the faster and more energetic attacks of my classmates. Actually, it's kind of exciting.

[heri0n]

Two shinais up ow! =)

[kendomushi]

Nito is not a skill many people can learn well. I'm sure your fencing experience comes through in your style and your sensei is learned and skillful enough to see that and tailor kendo to this advantage you already have. Nito kendoka are usually looked at with a bit of awe and admiration here as they are so rare.
Take it not as a criticism, but as a compliment. He sees you are working hard, respects your efforts, and so wants to tailor things to make you the best you can be. Enjoy it.

[Stan]

Hey Old Warrior,

Some of us would consider giving our left one up for an opportunity like you have. Enough whining, get to work! :-)

Stan

[Inouye02]

OW, you dont have to use reversed foot work, you can still do nito keeping your right foot forward, I also do nito using my right hand, in the begining try practicing this way when doing men uchi, kote uchi, and do ichi to get the feeling of striking with 1 hand, also you will hitting gyaku do also...on the kote strike make sure you slap ( harai ) the shinai hard and strike the kote while turning the right wrist inwards, by doing so you avoid hitting the tsuba, practice this slowly until your wrist gets used to it ...remember if you miss the kote you are dead to rights for a men strike since your arms will be crossed ,( right over left ) so close distance if you miss...striking the left kote is easier if you get them out of chudan turn your wrist just a little to angle it in ..

enough said ..just as moocow mentioned , do plenty of arm conditioning..

ps in kihon keiko, do kirikaeshi 1 handed, everything 1 handed !!!

[Old Warrior]

"ps in kihon keiko, do kirikaeshi 1 handed, everything 1 handed"

Trust me, I don't get a choice. Master Seong is teaching me the nito version of everything including the do cut (hori). And kirakaeshi (yung yuk) gets very tiring doing it with one arm and then receiving the same strikes using alternating arms. At this point I can barely complete one cycle without need for a little rest. There is so much to learn and it is very challenging to be back at square one for everything. And, since I can't simply ask one of my fellow students for help and Master Seongs English is non existent - it's a marvelous struggle. I go from being in charge of everything at my office to a lowly know nothing in class and its refreshingly humbling. I can't wait to try again tomorrow.

"you dont have to use reversed foot work, you can still do nito keeping your right foot forward"

To be honest, I do what I'm told. With the shoto in my left Master Seong wants my left forward. I was surpised when he wanted me to cross the left foot with my right when I do an advancing hori to the opponents left side. But not only does it flow nicely, but after you pass its really easy to pivot and again face your opponent. Mine is not to question why - maybe some day, but not yet.

[bukowski]

Originally posted by Old Warrior

Tonight Master Seong came to me and through a translator indicated he felt that I would do better trying something different. He gave me a shoto and a 37 shinai and spent the class teaching me the basics of nito. What am I to make of this?
I thought I was progressing pretty well and I know my persistence is respected. Considering how much I have been enjoying the classes I don't have a clue what to think.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I do not wish to sound rude, so please do not take anything that I say the wrong way-

I have never responded to one of your posts before, but I noticed that you mentioned that are 55 years old. A Go-Dan in
my area is 51, I believe, and he has realized that he is beginning to slow down, because of this, he has been trying to learn Nito for the past several months. I think that, if a person is lacking in
speed, then they cannot beat a faster person with one blade, but, if the other person has one blade, but you have two, then it makes up for the lack of speed. Because Nito involves parrying and blocking with the short shinai, then you have the ability to avoid your opponent's attack and perhaps attack him, something that you might not be able to do with a single shinai.

[Old Warrior]

"I do not wish to sound rude, so please do not take anything that I say the wrong way"

To the contrary, I appreciate your reply. I have been searching for answers. You have given me encouragement and I am persisting in this new journey.

[taiwnezboi]

What bukowski said is true. At our dojang we only have one nito practitioner and he is about 64 years old. At his age there is no way that he can keep up with a younger person using only one sword. I was taught that the older people use nito because it is more slow paced and defensive.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by taiwnezboi
I was taught that the older people use nito because it is more slow paced and defensive.
Man, if Raymond is slow paced and defensive I don't want to see him when he's being aggressive. Jest sayin'.

[sminki]

or that Brazilian nito kenshi in the 11th WKC in Santa Clara who stunned the bujesus out of Eiga.

But to the extent that jodan and nito are more maai (distance) critical due to the fact that they are more of a one strike stance than chudan, I think that it can be a bit slower paced and does suit people who are more patient with a keener sense of distance.

In terms of jodan or nito being defensive - disagree. They can be just as offensive minded. They just don't show it on the surface as much.

[JSchmidt]

Jodan is offensive by default...there is no such thing as 'defensive' jodan.

Jakob

[Nishi]

OW, i think this should be looked as a positive step. Based on whats been said , i think your teacher may be trying to harness all those years of epee, and lets face it, starting kendo at a late age can be difficult. But if my speculating is anything close to the truth, i think this step toward nito is a chance to improve your kendo and harness some inbred talents you may already have.

This is, i think, a great gesture from your teacher....not because you have been selected to learn nito, but because he is trying to enrich your kendo....to me, its shows he's thinking of you, return the gesture and do your best (as im sure you are)!!