Is Japanese Society Rotting Away?

[iwatekenshi]

Since the Origin of Kendo thread has gone out of wack. I thought I'd start a different thread...Sorry to repost from that thread.

Westerners who get their info through the eyes of the media seem to think that this kind of rebellion is what goes on their own country as well. It's not the same.
Japanese teens are not the same as Western teens. They will have similarities as teens all do but, but deep inside their reasons for rebellion are much different.
Here's an example....
After asking a bunch of teens how they feel about their hometown here in the sticks of Iwate they say they want to get out. They don't like their parents telling them what they should do and how hard they should study. They want to wear their school uniforms in some kind of fashionable style that's totally against the rules. They want to drink and they just want to break the silly rules that run their daily lives.
Hmmm...this seems all familiar...any teen in the world has these feelings based upon their culture's status quo. They want out!
The strangest response I get is when I ask them what about their future? Almost 100% of them say they want to come back to the sticks. Meaning that they want to come back to their ancestral home. Do you think a Western teenager will give a resonse like that? I don't think so.
Before saying this and that...please keep in mind this is the countryside NOT Tokyo or Osaka. Not everything happens in Tokyo and you can't judge a culture with what happens there and what happens here in the countryside.
Oh I can just see it little Johnny and little Jenny wants to go back to his or her ancestral home in (hometown,add a western country here) after spending a rebellious teenage life and then finding a job away from home.
This ain't the WILD WEST folks! This is WILD ASIA, things are a bit different here.
Sorry for my tirade, but I don't like it when people start to equate things without the hands on experience. Don't judge a book by its cover, i.e. through the media

BTW wanting to come back to their ancestral home I find that absolutely facinating. That longing for their FURUSATO, as it is said in Japanese, is still much in the hearts and minds of teenagers.

PS here's another bit of info...that probably most Westerners don't know. This has nothing to do with teenage rebellion or chapatsu, but did you know most towns outside the large metropolitan areas are still without the convenience of a sewage system? Yup that's right folks a tank to catch your feces and then a truck to suck it up. After the war the local municipalities are still working on it. Many of them have a goal. My parents home still have an indoor outhouse (that sounds strange??). Geez... isn't this the land of mini-cellphones and all that high tech stuff??? Again this is Asia and we're still sucking shite out of a bucket. BUT WE'RE WORKING ON IT!!!
Sometimes I like to put it as Japan being the most modern third world country ;) !
It's still a wonderful place to live and I still call it home :p .


Posted by kendomushi:
iwatekenshi,

Very well said. Having lived in Japan basically my entire adult life I have seen many times exactly what you speak of but I know that such ideas to my peers back home in Chicago would be an anathema.
The one thing I always tell westerners about Japan is that I expect no one to enjoy living here like I do, but I think everyone should experience it if they have the chance because it is as a culture and society, no matter how modern in most ways, different from anything you know growing up in the west.
Granted I live in the suburbs of Tokyo and have real plumbing, but when I was married to a woman from Kyushu, I don't think I visited even one family home with a real toilet. And don't forget that even in Tokyo, most homes and even huge 400 or more unit apartment buildings do not have a stove, they have only a 2 or 3 burner gas top with a tiny grill slot and are run by tanks of LPG (liquid Propane Gas). For those of you in the USA, thats the same stuff people have wired up to campers and your gas BBQ grill out back.

[Hongsermeier]

iwatae...Where in Kyushu? My wife is from Kagoshima area.
I find some of this info very close to home. My wife has lived in the US for about 12 years. On our most recent trip back to Japan she told me she always wanted to come back to the US. This trip was different. When we got back to the US she said I miss Japan. That was when I started looking for a Job opening to go there for work. On the other hand I left Illinois about 11 years ago and wouldn't move back for anything.
As for rotting away. The younger generation is easily taken in by fads. Example, the many blondes I saw there. Yet, as they get older they do return to their roots. I would say as a society their changing slowly. Good or bad will take much time to be seen. :cross_eye

[iwatekenshi]

Hongsermeier,
Hopefully for the good. They do return to their roots though. Still very common.
Sorry I'm not in Kyushu. Gotta look way up north! I'm closer to Hokkaido than I am to Tokyo. The cold north or people in Honshu call it the Tibet of Japan.
You were in the military right? Well I'm close to Misawa Air Base and three hours by Shinkansen from Tokyo. Get a JR Pass and please come to Iwate when you visit! We need some visitors!!! Bring your gear as well !:cool:

[Hai_hai]

The strangest response I get is when I ask them what about their future? Almost 100% of them say they want to come back to the sticks. Meaning that they want to come back to their ancestral home. Do you think a Western teenager will give a resonse like that? I don't think so.
The flip-side of this is that the Western teenager who wants to leave for the big city after high-school because life is boring will, in the future, want to return to their home town or at least move away from the big city.

[Hai_hai]

I think that all western-civilized societies are rotting away to some extent on different levels, including Japan, including the US.

[Nishi]

Including Britain....

[Hongsermeier]

Iwate...I was in the Navy. I did meet my wife in the US. She was an exchange student.
I've been to Misawa. Took a tour from there to Sendai. The only white guy on the bus tour. No body but me spoke any english.
I have a friend teaching English up your way. Maybe we'll come up on our visit next year. I plan on buying another set of bogu to leave in Japan. Too much trouble to carry back and forth. :cross_eye

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Nishi
Including Britain....

Britain is a completely depraved and morally-decrepit society. I just didn't want to hurt anyone's feeling and all.

[Nishi]

I agree Hai Hai. But there are good people and bad people in every country and Britian is no exception. I dont think it is any better or worse than the U.S, but i do feel both countries are on the down side of a massive mountain. I have always seen the western world like Rome and its provinces, and i also think its fall is inevitable(sp?).

[Hai_hai]

I was just kidding. Britain isn't any worse than the US.
Like I was saying, every western society is, in my opinion, on a downhill slide.

[dorkusxmaximus]

it's nice that Japanese teens feel that they have to go back to their roots. ohhh those toilets that you have to squat to. Yup it's still Asia alright.

[iwatekenshi]

Hongsermeier,
If you ever have the chance come up. I've lived in Kyushu before including Yakushima and life is a bit different down there. The cold weather slows the pace of life down. Anyway plenty of kendo. You'll have some fun!

[IRJ]

I think it's overly simplistic to say that Western i.e. capitalist countries are all rotting away. If one looks at the history of these countries, things have never been better in terms of racial and religous tolerance, etc.

Obviously the gap between the rich and poor is getting wider in the US, but many other Western countries are not experiencing it it to the same degree due to cultural differences and what people will let their governments get away with.

However, concerning Japan specifically, I think this particular country is truly in a state of rotting for one major reason: culture of denial!

Denial of economic problems, denial of WW2 atrocities, denial of problems associated with patriarchy (rape, gender inequality, etc.). Don't get me wrong, I love Japan, have been there many times and have many friends there and elsewhere, but the society has got MAJOR issues to work out.

[samurai999]

Though I am not as extreme as my parents, (they want things in terms of societal values the way they were right after WW2) i do think that what is cool about any country is that they are their own country. Japan has it's thing, America has it's thing, and so on and so forth. Once Japanese people start to think that they are better off being another ethnicity or another culture, then they start losing individuality. Everybody looks like a clone of another. Booooring..

As long as Japanese youngsters are tied into their roots and know where they come from, they can be as "Gen-X" as they wanna be.

Tim

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by samurai999
...As long as Japanese youngsters are tied into their roots and know where they come from, they can be as "Gen-X" as they wanna be...

...ah yes, changing from their "summer-time" rebellious leather jacket to their "winter-time" rebellious leather jacket at the same time that every other Gen-X person does.

[Hyaku]

To me this subject is a constant topic working in education. I even offered to give one boy some free private tuition yesterday. He flatly refused.

Talking to other educators who have done over thirty years they say there is definate downturn in values.

Other experts tell me that since the war it has not been the same. Suddenly what grandad had said one should do was replaced by a feeling of mistrust in the older generation leading everyone the wrong way. Problem is there was never anything substantial that took the place of the older ways after the war. We see an older generation of lost 40 to 50 year olds equally leading their children in the same direction.

That being said I clearly remember my father saying, "You dont know how lucky you are. Your grandad was ten time more severe. Seems to me its a wordwide problem.

I seem to remember most of my does and donts coming from the church. Regardless of being religious or not there is a set of values there whether it be Hindu, Christian whatever.

Thirty five years ago saw Prince Phillip telling the British people, "Get your fingers out" and statements like Youve never had it so good.

Basicaly Japan is a very selfish, spoilt country. I think Japanese wont come to their senses until they experience a bit more poverty.

Are they bad? If a child does not understand or is a bit slow, given the choice of being labeled bad or stupid, they will choose "bad" Are Japanese different? As much as sheep are black and white they are still sheep and get led the right or wrong way.

My area is nothing but "Kumitori" truckloads to suck up every day. Before the war they spread it on the fields as manure. Problem is the actual rate for having a cess pit emptied is five times cheapers tham being attached to a sewer system. within four years of laying a sewer local government will foot the costs of having your house you house connected.

After this if you move into and old house with ideas of modernizing, forget it. It will cost you 450 000 Yen (3780 US) to get pipes connected by an government authorized plumber. You cant to it yourself. A landlord wont spend that kind of money and a local goverment would rather build a new airport just to say, "We have an airport" rather than spend money on what I would have thought was a health risk.

Hyaku

[kendokamax]

put in a simple sentence
"japan is weird"

[kendomushi]

Hongsermeier

I'm the one with a wife from kyushu, or rather had one from kyushu oita ken. we divorced a couple years ago after she started an affair with her old high school flame..... very messy.

Iwatekenshi,
I work down at Yokota mainly but my job takes me up to Misawa for a week or two several times a year. Love it in winter as it reminds me of Chicago winters at home much more than Tokyo can.
.......................

I know many Japanese who have strived their whole lives to leave the country or their home areas and when they got the chance, immediately realized they missed home.

The thing I just cannot understand is why Japanese want to be something other than Japanese. I'm all for ingetrating things you like from any culture, but to work, it needs to be built on a firm base, built on who you are, not who you wish you were.

I unfortunately am rather old fashioned and my Japanese friends often refer to me as being more Japanese than Japanese or their Japanese history/culture sensei. This probably makes my view of the young a bit narrow, but I know that with all the pressures on Japanese society today - economic, political, cultural, moral - and the fact that the leaders of society are completely happy to do nothing but sit back and watch everything fall apart as long as they have what they want in their lives, the future does not look bright for my adopted homeland.

That being said, Japan is my home, and I'll be here the rest of my life no matter how bad it gets.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by kendomushi
I unfortunately am rather old fashioned and my Japanese friends often refer to me as being more Japanese than Japanese or their Japanese history/culture sensei.

In get stuck with that one regularly because they mistake a Brit Island attitude as being traditionally Japanese. One good thing to say for that is if your not sure what to do, follow your nose and you wont go far wrong.

My wife was born here in Kyushu as far from your usual sheep mentality. She was bullied a lot, even by teachers as she did fit the Japanese mold. Does not go down well if your English is too good!

Hyaku

[LNGUYEN]

Japanese, I have experienced two type of Japanese.

Martial art type: very straight forward, friendly(real friendly) and I have many friends in this type.
Regular: they usually don't say what they thought, like : oh you look nice today (but they thought, you look like sh.t)
Japan, just like other Asian countries, they rather have nice clothes but no foods on the table. they have to save their faces, honors. They are very proud of themselves to the point is feeling superior to other ethnics. If you are better than them, they will try anythig to learn it even kissing your a.. and if they don't need you : Mr. Doe get the F*** away. I used to have a Japanese girl friend, oh she was driving crazy with things like: we are the smartest, I am too busy to going outh with you for 30 minutes tonight. Unfortunately, the relationships didn't last very long, 1 week.

THEY ARE JUST LIKE EVERY ASIAN COUNTRIES.

[KhawMengLee]

Errr...that's a pretty fucked up thing to say dude. Almost as good as Confound's you can't have a rational argument with Japanese people.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Hyaku
After this if you move into and old house with ideas of modernizing, forget it. It will cost you 450 000 Yen (3780 US) to get pipes connected by an government authorized plumber...

Not all of America is super modernized. In rural parts, some people have septic tanks and use well water. My friend, who is a home owner, ended up shelling out over $2000 to connect his home to a town water supply instead of depending on his well water (which runs dry during a drought). He has a septic tank and is not connected to a main sewer line.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by LNGUYEN
... I used to have a Japanese girl friend, oh she was driving crazy with things like: we are the smartest, I am too busy to going outh with you for 30 minutes tonight. Unfortunately, the relationships didn't last very long, 1 week.

THEY ARE JUST LIKE EVERY ASIAN COUNTRIES.

You met a stuck-up girl who happened to be Japanese. That type of woman, or bitch if you will, exists in other cultures.

[Charlie]

One step forward two steps back for you, HH.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Charlie
One step forward two steps back for you, HH.

Ah well, you didn't know my ex-girlfriend (not Japanese). I'll put it that way.

[samurai999]

LNGUYEN,

Well, you really can't categorize Japanese people into 2 types. There are varieties like every other country. There are hard-liners (ie the grey hair LDP politicians) the new generation (blonde hair, and brownish-red hair youngsters) and the working class who just go about their daily business. Within those, there are many sub cultures and types of people. So in other words, just like every other nation in this world.

They type of people you describe are the stubborn old people who aren't really in touch with present times. Sometimes (like my dad) don't want to be in touch. I go buy a cell phone and he gives me an hour lecture about how they used to walk from house to house and didn't have phones and blah blah blah blah blah. Again, I understand a bit of where he comes from because he tells me those experiences and expects me to live by those traditional values EVERY DAY. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

Funny thing is, there is nothing more traditional than kendo and he hates me doing it. He keeps telling me not to practice too much, or try not to go because you already have trophies, or you'll get injured when you go back, etc. Ironic...

Tim

[dorkusxmaximus]

Haha your dad kind of sounds like my uncles, Samurai999. They used to tell me how they would walk 15 miles to school, moved out and lived out on their own at a young age, cooked their own meals, chopped wood, etc. Good thing my mom never gave me those type of lectures *phew*. The only thing she told me was that she had to help out my grandparents with the family business with the rest of her siblings.

[Hyaku]

I dont know why people are having problems with Japanese girls.

Please dont judge things on one bad relationship. There are some normal, nice ones out there. Women of any nationality are sometimes hard to understand.

Hyaku

[LNGUYEN]

I am not judging Japanese based on one bad relationship. I used to work with Japanese and had a Japanese boss, friends in colleges, talk to some Japanese in Osaka airport, friends in Kendo, Judo. I just say that like other Asian countries, include Vietnam my birth country, they tend to cover outside with many things to hide whatever they are thinking. I didn't like that in Vietnamese neither. Oh yeh, Just ask any Japanese who don't practice martial art, they will tell you who is the superior people, that is why the Japanese always have difficult immigration process to keep their purity. I am not trying to hate any of the Japanese, as the matter of fact, I like the culture very much. I admire them the way they keep their culture, not like Vietnam, we seem to lost our culture sometime ago. I like Japanese garden, Martial art, clothes, cities, temples. However, I don't agree with the Japanese, who I met out side of Martial art world. I think they should be more open mind. Correct me if I am wrong. I am all open for it. Just convince me please.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Are you trying to say that Japanese that don't practice martial arts are all ethnocentric? Look, you can't judge a certain ethnicity based on the bad experiences you had with some people. Not all are like that. You should know better, and don't say, "I don't agree with the Japanese, who I met outside of the martial arts world." That's like trying to say you think ALL of them are like that. Try using an adjective such as most, few, some, or couple next time.

I don't think it's them that should be open-minded (well, yeah the individuals you met should be more open). I also think it's you that should be as well. From my perspective, you had some bad experiences with the Japanese you met outside the martial arts circle and decided that all Japanese people are like the people you met. Am I right or not??? Dude, I met some ethnocentric people too, but they weren't just one ethnicity. And I won't judge them based on their ethnicity either. I Judge by their character.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Oh yeah you live in a state that has a pretty segregated city. That's pretty racist. I heard they have a freeway built by some rich high-class neighborhood that avoids going into heavily populated African-American areas. What a waste of tax-payers money.

[kendomushi]

There are good and bad, nice and rotten people in every culture country and society. My experience in Japan has mostly been that people are very nice, friendly, open.... no matter if they practice any budo or not. But the ones who are jerks.... they more than make up for the lack of numbers.

[IRJ]

I think it would be fair to say that Japan is at least OFFICIALLY very ethnocentric. It's debatable how much of the population agrees with this.

For example, I do know for certain that their immigration system is one of the most strict and racialised (spelling?) in the world. For instance, Koreans that are fourth and fifth generation in Japan are never allowed citizenship. You have to marry a Japanese citizen, regardless of whether you were born there or lived there for 80 years.

In fact, until recently, just marrying a Japanese citizen wasn't even enough. You had to marry a Japanese male, since women didn't count for "continuing the blood line." That was changed in the mid-1980's or early 90's I think.

Also, the Japanese government does not recognise any of the native groups that exist, for example Ainu people in the north.

[kendomushi]

That was changed in 1984 when the law was also changed to allow a woman to inherit and pass property to her children without restriction and the requirement to take a Japanese name if taking Japanese citizenship was also dropped at the same time.

The government does now officially recognize the Ainu as a separate native group. But official recognition is all they intend to do in terms of them.

[Hyaku]

I would not have thought that Japans ethnocentric attitude was so disparaging. More of a lack of knowledge and really not even wanting to know about other countries.

I sometimes ask myself is sakoku really over. It may appear to be outwardly as such. But I often associate Japan as being in a bubble sorrounded by a one way mirror. Others can see in but sadly they still cannot see outside.

The small groups travel following the little flag for flash tours and still look at Gaikoku like they are watching a movie. Not really taking in the fact that there is a world out there and there are "other" human beings out there.

But if you choose to make your life here is no problem with getting Japanese residency, then citizenship. The citizenship takes quite while (a year) with over twenty documents. The point is why would one want to do this? I think I would feel rather stupid showing people Japanese Passport not having been born here.

Then again I really sympathise with children being born of mixed parents and dont like the fact that dual nationality is not accepted here.

Hyaku

[Hongsermeier]

Hyaku...dual mationality is accepted in Japan until you are 21. Then you have to make a decision. I have a 10 month old son with Japanese and US citizenship.

Also, where is Saga? My wife is from Kagoshima. :cross_eye

[samurai999]

Hyaku,

Well it depends. There are people who want to keep Japan "pure" for lack of a better term. My parents (my dad mostly) are one example (ie the older generation). They believe that most outsiders only keep to themselves and only are in for their own gain. I can list examples, but it would get really long. They are also very stubborn and bull headed in their beliefs. They believe in the "if you don't like it, then get out of our country" thing. The younger generation are a bit more diverse and accepting in general. As for me, I am open but if you diss me, you'll see my dark side. :D

Tim

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Hyaku...dual mationality is accepted in Japan until you are 21. Then you have to make a decision. I have a 10 month old son with Japanese and US citizenship.

Yes I know. My friends son was born a day after the law came in. He has to decide soon. What I meant was that I dont see why they even should have to decide.


Also, where is Saga? My wife is from Kagoshima. :cross_eye Its in between Fukuoka and Nagasaki

[Hongsermeier]

We have friends and relatives in Fukuoka. We plan on heading up that way our next trip.

I'm not sure if it's totally the Japanese law about deciding. I don't think the US allows you to keep dual citizenship either. :cross_eye

[JSchmidt]

"I don't think the US allows you to keep dual citizenship either."

With the exception of a Israeli/US citizenship..

Jakob

[kendomushi]

However, the US does not require you to declare which you want in the case of children born with dual citizenship. They simply assume that if you say nothing, you have chosen the US.
Japan was, if not still is, the same way. I know several people nearing 30 years old who maintain passports from both countries and simply have never declared which they chose. Then again, they don't travel much either.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
"I don't think the US allows you to keep dual citizenship either."

With the exception of a Israeli/US citizenship..

US/Canada is OK too, it changed a few years ago. My father's from the US and he finally got Canadian citizenship when they changed the rules so he didn't have to give up his US one. I think he's travelling on a Canadian passport now though.

[Hongsermeier]

Kendomushi....Thanks for the info. I'll have to remember to tell my boy to just be quiet. :cross_eye

[IRJ]

Canada does recognise dual-citizenship though, unlike Japan and US.

Although in reality, I know that the whole dual-citizenship thing is a bit sketchy, b/c as people mentioned above, if you don't renounce your old citizenships/passports you can just keep both. My girlfriend holds both Japanese and Canadian passports, even though she's technically supposed to surrender the Japan one.

She just uses the Japan one going into Japan, and Canada everywhere else.

Legally, you're treated as a citizen of the country whose passport you used to enter with.

[kendomushi]

But in some cases, such as the UK I believe, you cannot legally renounce your citizenship. Once a Brit, always a Brit.

[aru-ma]

I've got something that's been bugging me about citizenship, what happens to the overseas citizens if the country dissolves or cease to exist such as chechoslovakia.

by overseas citizen I mean people still holding their country's citizenship but is staying overseas.

[lewis]

Originally posted by Hyaku
To me this subject is a constant topic working in education. I even offered to give one boy some free private tuition yesterday. He flatly refused.

Talking to other educators who have done over thirty years they say there is definate downturn in values....

That being said I clearly remember my father saying, "You dont know how lucky you are. Your grandad was ten time more severe. Seems to me its a wordwide problem.

Hyaku

If you look at any time in history when there has been any change -technological or social- occurring, this feeling is pervasive. It comes from the older generation no longer feeling comfortable because of the change. They literally want to roll back time to the period when they felt comfortable, in control of their lives, and like they belonged in the time that they lived. If life is a rollercoaster, their spending most of the ride looking back at the first drop saying "I really liked that part" rather than seeing and enjoying the part they are on.

The sad part is that so many people find it easier to try to roll back time (impose their morality on others), rather than see the truth that society has always been changing and any feeling of security, control or belonging they once had was probably an illusion created by their being aware of the change going on around them then. They would rather live with the hope that they can get that feeling back than let it go, I guess. It is hard to blame them, even if you don't agree. That hope may be all they have.

That said, I don't think japan is socially or morally rotting away, just changing. Unfortunately, their economy is rotting away precisely because some things haven't changed.

[kendomushi]

True, many things that need to change here are not (economy, politics, etc.). But its not just the old who aren't looking ahead. The young too see that nothing ever changes in any significant way so they absolve themselves of any responsibility for the present or future and they refuse to learn from the past.
They just sit and wait expecting society or the government or the parents to make sure things stay as they expect them. The complacency, boredom, and indifference this breeds can cause any society to rot away.