Suriage

[Nishi]

I'm searching for feedback regarding Suriage. I have been studying men-suriage-men but alwayse strugle with one glitch...

In order to deliver my men-cut i press forward and strike, now the problem is my opponent also makes the distance move and we tend to crash before either cuts. I can appreciatte the ma'ai of the situation which would require me to stay on the spot, suriage the men-cut then as i return the men-cut i fumikomi and okuri ashi out if there...so technically i can make it work, but i always feels half spirited and the cut is very short and sharp...

Can anyone give some advice regarding men-suriage-men, ma'ai, timing, cut size, and anything else you can think of.....

Cheers
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[JSchmidt]

Mmmm suriage..my favourite (and probably best) waza in chudan :)
Cut-size should be small and sharp..you simply dont have time for a big cut. After you deflect the opponents shinai, your kensaki should be about 8-10 inches above the opponents men, so it is merely a case of a short sharp step with a little elbow and lots of wrist. Think of the step as the first you do for kote-men..you can still propel yourself forward from there.
Timing, though, is by far the hardest and it also depends a fair bit on the opponents cutting style. A person with a strong right hand is hard to do suriage on, on the (your) left handside, as you are attacking the strong side of his shinai and vice-versa.
Also, I find people with bigger cuts, combined with a strong forward motion hard to do suriage on in general, regardless of side.
People with small cuts are technically easier, as you can catch their shinais on the upward motion, but the timing is more tricky.
As for distance, it works best at issoku or further. At close distance you'll have to work hard with your feet to pull it off.
The most important thing is to have relaxed wrist. And awful lot of the motion comes from the wrist, as you can't really generate that slight rolling motion with your elbow/shoulders.

If you ever get a chance to practice in Hizen or with Jeff Humm elsewhere, ask him, as it's one of his favourite wazas (and where I learned it).

Jakob

[Charlie]

Yeah, it's a tough one because the nature of kendo is to have your opponent rapidly closing the distance between you. By the time you've swept the shinai aside, the opponent is too close for the men cut.

It seems to be one of those things that when the opportunity arises, you know it (and watch it whip past before you have a chance to do anything about it) but the opportunity doesn't arise that much. I myself am usually concentrating on my attack so don't think about it much; maybe it's a different style of play?

[Nishi]

Well said Charlie... I do find that when i use suriage as displayed in kata 5 i can control the distance much better by stepping back, sweeping the shinai aside, then gauging my distance and cutting short and sharp to return the cut. My problem is stepping back, i just cant step back and feel offensive about it, and like Charlie said, i am usually pressing forward in attack mode, so the situation rarley arises, but when it does im under trained for it because of my misunderstanding of the technique.

I think as most of my cuts are all big this may be the start of my misunderstanding.

[JSchmidt]

Ok, I think the trick is to look at suriage-waza more as an offensive technique and not defensive...almost like debana-waza.
If you approach it with the same mindset as with nuki and kaishi-waza you will be too late.

Jakob

[Nishi]

Okay...I tried the suriage the described by JSchmidt, and i works well....the problem it seems is that it goes against my normal style of cutting (above the head)!! I find that my cut rises and suriages and snaps a small cut which is almost all wrists and nevers see's the hands above the head....i'll just have to get used to the snappy cut i guess!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Nishi
I find that my cut rises and suriages and snaps a small cut which is almost all wrists and nevers see's the hands above the head....i'll just have to get used to the snappy cut i guess!
Uhm... duh! That would be a small men, ne? My definition of small and large men isn't related to how big the shinai motion is but rather the mechanics of it. A large men is the standard basic thing, which involves the whole arm, swing up with hands above the head, use the wrists at the end. A small men is one where the motion derives from the wrists. If you are raising your hands above your head, you aren't doing a small technique. In fact you should be moving your hands straight towards the target without any unnecessary up and down arm motion. You can still get a big shinai motion - 30-45 degrees of swing is easy enough with a nice flexy wrist motion.

[Karaken]

When I have enough time and distance, I can cut sharp men going forward. If I'm late or too close, I simply execute Hiki men after suriage - this way I can execute full men with better posture and possibly better timing. If you retreat with a bit of angle ( to your right rear ) it gives better angle than straight hiki men.

Center.

[Steve]

My experience with suriage is that you have to adapt your technique depending on the opponent. If they come in at you at a speed you can deal with then suriage men forward. If they are a bit faster than that, suriage men but use hiraki-ashi footwork to move to the side a bit. Super fast, suriage then hiki-men.

If you watch high level kendoka do suriage they can handle any one at any speed and always move forward. I guess thats what we strive for, and in 30+ years we might get it! ;)

[Chusan]

Okay. Now this is my question concerning suriage:
when my opponent attacks men, and I start swinging my shinai, thus deflecting his shinai when moving my shinai up and then delivering my own men-attack - is this suriage? Neil?

[iwatekenshi]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Ok, I think the trick is to look at suriage-waza more as an offensive technique and not defensive...almost like debana-waza.
Jakob


Yes it is almost like debana-waza. As soon as your opponent makes a move you can employ a debana men but instead you slide your shinai up in a han-en or in English a half-circle upwards and then drop your shinai straight down, kiri-otosu. It's very effective waza and if done efficiently it can be a perfect men. Footwork however is very important as always because you must move to the side while bringing the shinai down to men. If you don't have your footwork down then you can forget about doing this waza.

People often get this waza confused as harai-waza but it is not. The meaning is completely different. Harai is to hit whereas suriage means to slide-up. Two complete different actions and footwork technique.

A good way to practice suriage men is during yakusoku-waza practice. Tell your partner to go for men but invite or rather force your partner in by applying seme. When you feel his or her attack coming (timing is very important!) apply suriage. This is however very difficult to practice because you must use a go-no-sen seme technique. Sounds easier said than done but once you get it, it makes keiko a lot more interesting.

Hope this helps:).

[Nishi]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
This is however very difficult to practice because you must use a go-no-sen seme technique.

Can you discuss a little more about the go-no-sen seme technique iwatekenshi??

[iwatekenshi]

Go-no-sen is very difficult to explain but I'll try my best. First of all please separate the two in meaning, go-no-sen and seme. The two are separate but both are needed.

You would need good seme to entice your opponent and then apply the go-no-sen in order to be able to do suriage. In short suriage waza is a go-no-sen move, because you take the initiative and strike after your opponent as made the initial attack.

The reason why suriage is so difficult to do correctly is because it is a go-no-sen type waza. Most waza is sen-sen-no-sen which is attacking your opponent before he or she makes his move. Go-no-sen is the opposite. The opponent has made his move already by you applying seme and then counteracting the attack with suriage or some other waza that would come automatically.

Well I hope this helps again.

[iwatekenshi]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
Go-no-sen is very difficult to explain but I'll try my best. First of all please separate the two in meaning, go-no-sen and seme. The two are separate but both are needed.

You would need good seme to entice your opponent and then apply the go-no-sen in order to be able to do suriage. In short suriage waza is a go-no-sen move, because you take the initiative and strike after your opponent as made the initial attack.

The reason why suriage is so difficult to do correctly is because it is a go-no-sen type waza. Most waza is sen-sen-no-sen which is attacking your opponent before he or she makes his move. Go-no-sen is the opposite. The opponent has made his move already by you applying seme and then counteracting the attack with suriage or some other waza that would come automatically.

Well I hope this helps again.

Just an add in about sen-sen-no-sen and go-no-sen.

Most commonly sen-sen-no-sen is what works and we're trained in that first because it's most important. Go-no-sen is the opposite so not being use to it makes doing men-suriage-men very difficult.

[JSchmidt]

"because you take the initiative and strike after your opponent as made the initial attack."

Which was why one of my teachers would argue that suriage-waza could be interpreted as a shikake-waza and not oji-waza.

Jakob

[PhilMcLaughlin]

my tuppence worth..

Its very hard to make suriage against an attack that is O waza (big men). Your timing, posture and coordination just have to be spot on or 99.9% its too late

In this case its better to try Debana men & if you cut straight your shinai will make the suriage motion for you (watch Gareth - he does that one quite well)

To learn the feeling of suriage get your opponent to attack with tsuki - that way you get to learn to keep shinai contact whilst moving the shinai out of the way

and of course - Relax ! ;-)

Good luck at the weekend

cheers

[iwatekenshi]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin

To learn the feeling of suriage get your opponent to attack with tsuki - that way you get to learn to keep shinai contact whilst moving the shinai out of the way

and of course - Relax ! ;-)

Good luck at the weekend

cheers

Yes that's the way I first learned it.