Internet Culture vs. Kendo Culture

[enkorat]

Hello everyone,

I've been thinking lately about how the Internet and its particular social norms (culture) is interacting with what we would probably consider to be Kendo culture. Specifically I've been thinking about these forums in particular, and its impact on kendo as a larger whole, and I wanted to see what other people thought.

I've been posting and actively participating on these forums since 2004, and my participation in other internet based forums on other different topics probably goes back to around 2000. In the past 6-7 years or so, I've noticed a trend in American culture that has been simultaneously applauded as a "democratization" of society, and bemoaned as the rise of the crass, ill-informed, increasingly intolerant anonymous cyber-individualist.

On one hand, with the rise of the Internet, our access to all levels of information has drastically become easier, and projects such as Wikipedia for the most part highlight the benefit of collective, relatively democratic and egalitarian efforts. Closer to home, forums such as this one (Kendo World), graciously provided for free have lead to a dramatic increase in world wide communication relating to the practice of Kendo and related arts. Individuals with previously little opportunity to pursue what remains to be a somewhat obscure Japanese Sword Art are able to find likeminded people throughout the world. A single post on these forums has the potential to reach kendoka in all parts of the world in an instant. A question fielded here can be answered by a number of instructors, with a degree of face saving anonymity.

Yet more often than not, the uglier side of internet culture also raises its head (even here). Since everyone is democratically entitled to an opinion regardless of expertise or knowledge, more often than not threads devolve into flamewars, with dilletants blatently telling instructors to shove their well meaning advice into places where the sun doesn't normally shine, usually preceeding a overly obsequious beginning of "I'm only a beginner, but..." Granted there are other places on the Internet where this sort of "my opinion is holier than thou's" is much more striking, and indeed it has been even lampooned in such items of popular culture as "The Simpsons" in characters like "the comic book guy".

Yet am I not mistaken that this sort of prickly, easily offended "flame prone" culture is the antithesis of some of the aspects that kendo is trying to teach? Things such as assertiveness without arrogance, humility with confidence, patience and tolerance?

So I'd like to ask what other kendoka think out there:

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?

2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

Thanks all!

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I don't think it affects things much at all, its one thing to spew crap anonymously over the internet where there are (usually) no real consequences, while its an entirely different thing to talk to people and deal with them on a regular basis.

[ne0r]

I think kendo is not affected by internet culture, but that internet culture is being affected by kendo.

You have much more occasions to do mistakes, so you have more opportunities to learn. For instance the perpetual fight with backyardos, as I like to call them. You have to think about what you post, what others post, about the situation. I believe that you can learn a lot from this. And, like in kendo, you can transfer what you have learned into the "real-life".

Like everything in life, you can learn from it.

Just my 2 european cents.^^

[ne0r]

Oops, I forgot to say, WHY kendo affects internet culture:

I have been on this forum for quite a time and became used to it.
Now having joined other forums, on non kendo-related stuff, I pretty much
feel/see the difference. The way of communicating is somewhat other, not
so kind like on this forum.

The difference is not so big, though.

^^

[ben]

This is an interesting question (or series of questions).

[long post -- gobureishimasu!]

I think that here there has developed a kind of unspoken heirachy based on kendo grade + helpfulness + (maybe) post count. It is interesting how this has evolved fairly organically. Actually no-one really comes here to strike a blow for cyber-egalitarianism (or if they do they don't stay long). Most regulars are quite keen to replicate the kind of etiquette that is taught in the dojo.

On a side note, I'm always interested to hear how many of my otagai here in Melbourne are regular lurkers but seldom or never post. There's a lot! So information gets around to an even wider circle than the membership list would imply. Maybe it's only the tip of the iceberg.

So to answer one question, IMHO the reigi of the dojo affects the behaviour here and not the other way around.

It's also an interesting question because I've recently been in a bit of an altercation in another thread, which is not something I make a habit of. Maybe it's the humidity here at the mo. Maybe I'm suffering withdrawal from the dojo and I've started jigeiko witth someone online without saying "onegaishimasu!" Interestingly, after a fiery reply to my post I took a look at this gentleman's User profile and it listed his age as being over 50. Instantly I felt a twinge of... what? Shame? Remorse? I'm not sure. I'm pretty gullible so I tend to believe what people here put in their profiles. So even online I felt some sense of deference to this chap because of his age. Sempai-kohai crossover to the online world? Maybe also because age can (sometimes) be an indicator of wisdom/experience, and that maybe I should have given this guy the benefit of the doubt. OTOH his original notion, which was innocent enough but showed a kind of self-centred ignorance of the history and whole raison d'etre of KW, was one I felt compelled to disabuse him of.

I did this flippantly, with little warning of where I was coming from. I was not totally upfront. The reaction, whilst vehement, was not unexpected. A bit like suddenly tsuki-ing someone you don't know at a goodwill keiko to see how they'll react. You have to be ready to cop some (or a LOT of) stick in return.

If this comment had come in real life, maybe I would have reacted differently, maybe not. I think all the other cues that we use to communicate face to face: body language, inflection of speech, ease of clarification, two-way discussion in real time, all help allay the kind of misunderstanding that commonly occurs in email and internet forums. Maybe I was hiding behind not my online anonymity, but my online persona.

Even though it's not in my profile, my grade is fairly easy to find. That and my reputation here were maybe a couple of big shinai that I chose to whack this guy with. The fact that one of the owners of this site quite speedily backed me up made me feel vindicated, but may well have left my interlocutor feeling like he was being excluded from some cosy club, that the troops were rallying around one of their own, as it were. It is my imagined scenario that this gentleman, who quotes a sensei from a non-JSA form of budo in his profile, will return to that world where he has greater standing and vent some spleen against those insular and close-minded kendo-people. This is what I imagine.

So to try and wrap this up, I suppose the other reason this altercation is relevant, is because it was to do with the purpose of Kendo World and the role it plays in disseminating kendo around the English-speaking world. KW has increased the amount of quality information available to non-Japanese speaking kendoka HUGELY. It continues to do so at an amazing rate, thanks to the internet and personal computer-based publishing software. This is the massive benefit of this site, forum and magazine. It is a great help to senior kendoka especially, who now have a hope of not stagnating when they reach 5-dan.

But it seems this huge rate of change (when compared with the previous 30+ years), is not fast enough for some. There are people out there who, understandably, have become accustomed to information on demand, and who don't appreciate that you can't just instantly translate and publish worthwhile information on budo, indeed publish a journal-of-record, using Babelfish. (In the same way that you can't expect to find whatever koryu you wish to study in Hometown, USA. You might have to travel a bit. Like to Japan.) I like this fact. It's like knowing that there's still some wilderness left out there.

We can't have it all NOW. But that's OK because we have PLENTY to be going on with.

[end long post - shitsureishimashita!]

b

[nodachi]

I find the internet world and the real kendo world to be separate realms. Different settings with different rules. We try to be helpful and follow proper rules of politeness, but we all probably act slightly differently online. For example, I will still try to offer advice to people online. I like using it to share ideas and as a testing ground for comments. We all will have to teach eventually in Kendo and this is a nice place to bounce comments off of each other. We can learn what comments are helpful to others here before we are forced to teach in the real world dojo. However, my online persona is often more blunt than I would be in real life. I still try to play nice online (although I have my failings), but word choice and directness online are way different than real life. When dealing with people face to face, you definitely consider how to respond to someone more carefully.

[Alan Molstad]

While it is true that you do find a lot of people on forums that are mean to others, there is also a general lack of good manners from people in real life as well.

perhaps there are many reasons for this ...I dont know.

It has been pointed out to me that there are many young men growing up now in the world that had no example of what being a good dad, a good person, a good "man" is like...

With no example at home to learn from, many guys grow up without learning how to have conversations, how to disagree, how to enjoy the company of others without being a very bitter person.

[nodachi]

"With no example at home to learn from, many guys grow up without learning how to have conversations, how to disagree, how to enjoy the company of others without being a very bitter person."

Very good point! Especially the part about people not learning how to disagree... I don't know where the fault is, but the art of a good conversation and accepting and being able to discuss disagreements is not present in many people. Some people will push and push and won't quit until they get the other party to agree to their own viewpoint. Frequently that just doesn't happen, especially in heated topics like politics.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some interesting thoughts here. I've been using the internet now to discuss and promote kendo since the late 80s, first in the old martial arts mailing list, then through usenet and now through this and other web forums. I originally wrote the JSA FAQ for RMA in 93, thank god mostly cribbed from more qualified people than me, in an effort to have some sort of central resource. So obviously I think the medium has some value, or I get something out of it, or maybe it's just inertia by this time.

The flavour of it hasn't really changed all that much over the years, just the scale and ease of access. You get the more experienced people who want to help the juniors but are mainly there to shoot the shit with each other, and you get the juniors who are always eager to give their opinion, and all manner of people in-between. Shodan disease hasn't changed.

People gain a sense of comradery in their practice, a few practical tips maybe, but still have to do the real learning on the dojo floor. I think the most important thing we do is put people in touch with dojos, or give them help with starting one in their town.

For those who are already in the dojo, I'm not so convinced they take a lot of technical stuff away from here. I mean, my instructor's been telling me "straight your back" for over 20 years now, and it wasn't until 10 years ago that the light went on and I said "OH!, straighten my back!". So while technical stuff is fun to discuss, it's really down to practice. Less chat, more mat, as they say.

OTOH, a lot of things that indirectly impact your personal kendo, like information about bogu, repair tips, etc are useful. There's plenty of instructors that don't know as much as you think about bogu. I've taken some fun kids drills away from here.

I think for more senior people, the most important thing is the sense of community. Frankly, my instructor has all the information I need to make my kendo better, so I don't need to come here for that. But making kendo friends all over the world, that's something the internet is really good for. I've practiced with and drank beer with people from various parts of the US, England, Australia and of course all over Canada, and I hope to meet more of you.

I think the downside of the medium is too much information too fast. You know how sometimes you get beginners who look at the way the sensei play and try to imitate that quiet style? There's a lot of that happening virtually, where people listen in on conversations that are way over their heads. They think because they understand the words that somehow they get and can use the concepts. So then you get some beginner telling another that they need more seme or that the solution to their sensei hitting his men is obviously suriagi-men, or some such nonsense. It's the price we pay, but I believe it will all get straightened out on the floor.

As far as the lurker situation goes - there are more than you think. Way more. My advice is to type as if your sensei is reading over your shoulder, because he may as well be. I'm sure there's any number of my seniors who disapprove of this medium, and of me being involved in it. In fact, I know of one who doesn't believe any of this stuff should be written down in books at all. You have to steal your waza, as he says. Clearly, I disagree. You have to practice your waza. But I think we can tell you about the waza.

[D.Benton]

I'm not sure if things posted here have any effect on how Kendo is taught, but I think some of the information here is relavent. For example, I've referred several of the gals that I practice with to the Women's Forum because there are some physiological/biological aspects that are specifically addressed in that forum. Without that resource I would have tried to locate another female kenshi to put them in contact with for information and advice.

On the other side of the coin, the information contained in a thread is subjective to the person who posts, and they may have quite a bit of experience and knowledge or they might be a troll. For experienced readers of the forum, most know what to look for and what to ignore. I've even mentioned this to folks that I refer KW as an information source. A sort of don't believe everything you read, and try not to take too much offense to the folks that just want attention.

We're faced with the internet and we have the option to use it to our benefit or for other purposes. Some people here play the devils advocate while others try to present information that is helpful. I feel it is up to the individual to choose how that information or post affects them.

For instance, I'll read through a post in the waza section, and then check out the literature I have on it as well as review my notes and personal experience training, if I have any. I might read a different approach or aspect that makes sense to me. On the other hand, I'll read a thread and have a laugh, and be entertained, but won't have gotten much else out of it, or I'll read a thread and shake my head at some new troll. So I react to all of those threads differently, but I will probably not post on any of them because, I don't feel like participating in a flame, bating a troll, or I just don't feel that I can contribute anything worthwhile to the thread.

Having the information at KW forums readily available is a wonderul resource, but a lot of the information here is just that to me. I also realize that the answers to most of my questions about Kendo or Iaido aren't here but out on the floor somewhere, and maybe after a few hundred-thousand repetitions, or a thousand more hours of practice I might have a better understanding of Kendo and Iaido.

[Alan Molstad]

I have a story about some people I could tell you about that help show us what seems to be the main problem with InterNet forums such as this one and others like it....

In another forum this same topic came up and a guy sent me a private message about an event that had happend to him and a friend of his.

He was in kendo at the time...
He also was a member of a kendo forum ...
He got into some nasty bickering fights with lots of others on the kendo forum.
He did not really mind getting into fights on-line on the kendo forum, until one day...

Turns out that one day the guy got into a real nasty fight with some poster who he didnt know but slightly disagreed with over some minor manner.
One thing led to another, and soon the topic was totally lost as the guy went on and on cutting the other person down.

Turns out that the other person was someone he knew from his real life, Someone who went to his Kendo Hall....
Someone who printed out the text of the forum and handed it to people who were in his Kendo class...

The lesson learned here?
This Internet forum is able to bring people from all over the world, to be close enough to hear each other, yet far enough away so you can feel safe to pull any stunt you want and get away with it.

We are like people on different sides of a fence who cant really see each other, and rather than talk nice to the stranger, we cuss and spit over the fence at the smallest disagreements.

My friend who told me this story , also said that he would have NEVER in a MILLION years , ever spoken so harshly to his friend in real life.
But because of the internet, and it's temptation to bring out the darker nature, he acted in a manner that ended a friendship.

The only advice I would tell a person on this forum that has seen so many arguements, is that we should never post anything we also could not say to our mothers in church, with everyone in town listening...

[Alan Molstad]

type as if your sensei is reading over your shoulder, .

So true.....

[Alan Molstad]

So I'd like to ask what other kendoka think out there:

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?
Yes, and not to the good.
The internet has a culture that seems to bring out the "jerk" in some guys.
And this nasty part of people, once it is given a chance to show-off, is going to stick around and will change who the person is in real life too..

The many rude jerks on the forums tend to be or become the same type in real life too.




2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

Thanks all!
The internet culture is "Anger"...
it is "hate"...
it is "Bad Manners"
Some people who find themselves in one arguement after another on an Internet forum such as KendoWorld, will soon also learn the danger that this anger they displayed on-line has carried over and effect their personal lives as well...

[ne0r]

Some people who find themselves in one arguement after another on an Internet forum such as KendoWorld, will soon also learn the danger that this anger they displayed on-line has carried over and effect their personal lives as well...

I don't know if I got you right, you're saying that the Inet affects peoples personality?

If so, I have to disagree with you greatly. In my opinion the Inet builds up an (unreal) wall of anonymity, so the "darker areas" of one's character can be seen. I don't think that the Inet adds dark areas, that wouldn't make much sense.
Except that if you're whole community IS the internet, i.e. you have no friends in the real world, then the internet will probably change you.

[Shazzanzzz]

So then you get some beginner telling another that they need more seme or that the solution to their sensei hitting his men is obviously suriagi-men, or some such nonsense. It's the price we pay, but I believe it will all get straightened out on the floor.


HAHA. Suriage-men is the solution to EVERYTHING... well maybe not doh. (Don't kick me out haha)

On a more serious note... I like to participate in some discussions here and obviously I have received good advices or informations from here. I find posts by people like Charlie, enkorat, or Neil always pleasant. Some i find ignorant, some people probably find me ignorant at times, but i do think it's hard to discuss kendo in this forum environment. Much easier to talk about stuff after jigeiko or something. Some good stuff has happened because of this forum. For example, the William and Mary tournament was actually started because of some PM's between me and the W&M club president at the time. Stuff like that. People sharing WKC videos, pictures, and expereinces from the tournament was awesome too i thought. I almost never read or post stuff on techniques or wazas unless it's something i'm interested in at the moment.

And about the beginners that don't listen. Sorry guys, the new generation just simply don't listen, period. Some are bashful, some are still respectful, but in the end, I have noticed that people my generation or younger will pick and choose what they want to listen to. The age of following your elders blindly is gone, whither it's a good thing or not, whither the thing they're not listening to is absolutely the right thing or not. This is especially true in the US, where individualism run supreme. The only way to make someone listen to you is to make them respect you. Just being older or more senior just don't cut it anymore.

[Alan Molstad]

Shazzanzzz....

Now, what are your views as to why your generation seems the way it is?

what is the biggest difference you feel is between your generation and others?
What happend, what has changed, in the passing on of correct manners concerning their elders?

(My own answer is; "Lack of good examples at home")

[Ignatz]

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?
No. You still have to walk the walk, there are no shortcuts, no instant gratification and wikipedia ain't gonna help you


2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?
No effect one wy or the other on how kendo is taught, you still have to do it, talking about it doesn't cut it.

This forum could bring more people to kendo or spread some drills around which is good. It also points people to places to train and is good for making friends that have similar interests. If you then train with these friends you can steal their techiques.

[ReKru]

The age of following your elders blindly is gone, whither it's a good thing or not, whither the thing they're not listening to is absolutely the right thing or not.

Well, they complained about the same thing in good ole greece sometime b.C.
So I somehow doubt that age of following your elders blindly ever existed, except in our fogy fond memories of what super-kids we where when we where kids (and I think compared to my daughter, I was actually quite a spoiled brat =) .

As for the internet .. it's the devil's creation and will destroy mankind .. just like spiked maces and the steam engine did. :D
Personally I think one should take everything that 'happens' on the internet with a certain 'distance'.
Of all media, the written word is one of the most incomplete (it's leaving too much interpretation to the reciever) and dangerous (because milleniums of publishing written stuff being actually hard gave it such a special status - I guess mankind has that 'it's written, so it's gotta have some substance to it' imprinted into our collective social memory) ones.

Written or not, substantial or not .. it's still blabla.

[Masahiro]

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?

To be honest, I don't quite understand what "internet culture" is as a whole. I have an idea, but as in all things i do in life, I rarely observe any social norms (because i am expected to). So, there were times when i'll say stuff to directly challenge our now moderator "Neil" and other senior members on this forum who certainly has more experience in kendo than I. (by the way, your age, your post counts, and your rank means nothing to me when it comes to whether or not I should respect what you have to say!!!! so don't any of you try to lay that crap on me! If you can beat me, then u have my respect, if you can talk me into submission (provided with the 3 forms of pursuasion) then u've got my respect. Also if you are a wholesome person, you'll have my respect) Regardless of the result of the conversation, I always take something valuable with me. So, speaking from my point of view. Kendo World forum has gave me a lot of insights to help me advance faster in kendo. Albeit, I laugh a lot of time reading some of the stuff that people write on here and think "is he/she out of their minds? what kinda garbage is this?" hahahaha

i've classified people on here into 5groups.

"the jokers" type<<Hai Hai, Kenzan, etc... you know the type that we can always count on the "ease" the tension should there be a full out "flame war" going on in a thread

The "I am way too serious for kendo chit chat" type<<I wont name any names but, these people really needs some air around them. These bloggers usually pick on others English proficientcy (yes, it's spelled wrong purposely) and other minute "rhetorical" when quite a few bloggers on here aren't native English speakers!!! I sometimes wonder if these people have a "happy" life.

The "I just started learning kendo, but I have a lot to say and I have the right to say it, dang it" type<< anyone under sand dan! hahahahaha, yes unfortunately that includes me!

The "I am a fairly decent bloke and I'd just like to help, or have some serious discussion about something I care a lot about. (which is kendo in this case)" type. .<<again, i wont name names here. But it's easy to tell who i think these people are, as I never show any hostility towards them, since they are by default in my book. ..decent people. Some which I wouldn't mind becoming friends with in real life or over the internet!

The "I rarely blog on these forums, I am just here to browse" type, which is fine. But I would encourage these people to also blog more, or just blog some of their thoughts down. As the saying goes. "the more the merrier"hahaha

(our kendo forum mods are not included into these superficial stereotyping cast systems, cause we all know they are Gods that descends from the heaven. hahahahahaha. thanks all you "over achievers"!!! if i ever see you one of them, let me buy you a meal and a beer yah? )


2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

I believe and always will that "changes" is inevitable and invaluable to anything! whether these changes are voluntary (or not), or necessary. so, it is only a matter of time before we will be able to fence against robots. (yes, call me in 10 years. I will be making these suckers. ..no more bad personal hygene breath and oh weird kiais.. hahahaha) Forums like these will be detrimental to the individual and to the art if they are not regulated. But we all know how our mods are doing a great job at that. But it is quite benefitial to someone (or some people) who can take what they "read" in here and actively think about it and then apply it during keiko in ways that will help their kendo progress. However, I have more to say about whether it is possible for kendo to be taught on a face to face basis. However, I digress. As I want to keep it a secret and suprise the world some day! cheers peope and Happy New Years to you all.

[tilt]

[QUOTE=Shazzanzzz;225672]The age of following your elders blindly is gone, whither it's a good thing or not, whither the thing they're not listening to is absolutely the right thing or not.QUOTE]

Following anyone blindly anywhere is a bad thing regardless of their age.

[kartoffelngeist]

Well, they complained about the same thing in good ole greece sometime b.C.
So I somehow doubt that age of following your elders blindly ever existed, except in our fogy fond memories of what super-kids we where when we where kids (and I think compared to my daughter, I was actually quite a spoiled brat =) .

As for the internet .. it's the devil's creation and will destroy mankind .. just like spiked maces and the steam engine did. :D
Personally I think one should take everything that 'happens' on the internet with a certain 'distance'.
Of all media, the written word is one of the most incomplete (it's leaving too much interpretation to the reciever) and dangerous (because milleniums of publishing written stuff being actually hard gave it such a special status - I guess mankind has that 'it's written, so it's gotta have some substance to it' imprinted into our collective social memory) ones.

Written or not, substantial or not .. it's still blabla.

*nods in agreement*

[Ignatz]

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned."
Mark Twain

[Kuma]

People tend to think that circumstances change dramatically from one generation to the next, but if that was so then why are we still so similar to cultures in the past (as someone pointed out with the Greece example)?

I've done a lot of reading this year about pyschologial illness, addiction, and dysfunctional families. Consistantly in my reading, I find examples that people have had all the same problems that we have now, but they just weren't talked about in public, or even within families. All the same things were there and never could be dealt with because no one would discuss or admit to anything "abnormal." That is why I take issue with the idea that we have a lack of role models. When did we ever have more or better role models than we do now? Is it better to have a dysfunctional/abusive two parent family or a harried, but supportive single parent family? I'd certainly choose the latter.

If anything has changed significantly from one generation to the next, I would say that it is the remarkable increase in communication. Nothing substantial may have changed besides that, but what people have always thought and felt is now able to be discussed, for better or worse.

Just my two cents. Your milage may vary.

[Alan Molstad]

well...things have changed...
The family has changed...

When I was a child in about...oh, 3rd grade I remember one time I was in the lunch line talking to a friend.
I was telling my friend about a "Father And Son" party I had went on with my dad for the church.
I then asked my friend if his church had "Father And Son" parties too?

I rember what my friend said , and how it stunned all of us listening to him.
He said: "I dont have a dad, he and my mom got divorced"

I remeber how everyone around us all turned to look at my friend, none of us could understand what he had said,
"What is "DIVORCE?""
"Who is the "he" that my friend spoke of?"

We had never , ever heard of the concept of not having a dad at home
We had no idea what a "divorce" was talking about..

TIMES CHANGE....30 years go by...
I went with a family friend to pick up his son at the Day Care.
We went inside the house and were watching the kids playing in the back yard. One of the boys playing with my friend's son , saw us standing there and called out to my friend's son ; "Hey Davey, you mom's boyfriend is here to pick you up!"
Davey stood up from where he was playing and answered the other boy; "Thats my dad, not a boyfriend, mom and dad are married!"

That got all the other kids to stop, turn , and look at my friend and his son...

I spoke to the teacher about what we had just seen , and the teacher explaned that except for my my friend's son davey, all the other children in the Day Care come from single-parent homes.

The fact is that the other kids more than likely had never seen a family where the dad was married to their mom.

They didnt really understand the concept of "married"....

Things have changed....

What once was unknown, is now the norm,,,
What once was the norm , is now unknown.

What we see in the numbers is that growning up in a home where your dad is married to your mom, and being able to know what growing up and becomming a man meant, is something that is rare today.

Kids grow up with no example of what a man is....
Kids cant just look across the breakfast table and see their best example of what a "Father" is anymore...

Times have changed....

[Kuma]

I have a feeling that this thread is being hijacked...

What my point was is that, knowing what our society does to men in general, I would rather that my children has no father present than if I were one of the average fathers from the "good old days." Emotionally unavailable, distant, unaffectionate, more than likely abusive to someone in the family in one way or another, and with such rigid gender stereotypes that they would disown a kid for being too "girly."

Issues like this have been addressed in our society increasingly over the past thirty years, and women are no longer necessarily tied to a man, just because they conceived together. Why on Earth would anyone think that that's a good reason to form a life-long relationship. Would you have one parent stay with the other even if they turned out to be not-at-all cut out for parenting, just for the supposed benefit of having them around as an example? I'd recommend taking another look at those good old days.

I had two parents and not a example of what a good parent was in the house. The family is not the only place to look to for role models, and sometimes even with the best family, you don't pay attention to those examples.

In the end, the only person that you can rely on to better yourself is you. Isn't that one of the fundamental aspects of kendo? You can have the best sensei, but if you are a poor student, you won't progress. And if you have a poor teacher, you must remedy the situation. But it all comes back to personal responsibility. I've seen too much evidence of people overcoming abusive upbringings to put too much emphasis on two parent families.

/end rant

[Alan Molstad]

just because they conceived together. Why on Earth would anyone think that that's a good reason to form a life-long relationship.

I believe that this one statement above gives me a very clear example of how much things have changed...
In my generation, the concept of "family" is vastly different than the thinking behind this statement....vastly different indeed...

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING -
Many people are so quick to dump on others who dont have the correct Offical Kendo teachers , so quick to dump on guys who only do Kendo on their own in their backyard without any teachers, because it is felt "necessary" to learn good Kendo from only a good Kendo sensei
.
yet at the same time, how easily the concept of "family" of "Fatherhood" or of "parents" is replaced with invented new systems as if there is very little point to a boy learning how to become a married man one day, by watching his parents as his best examples...

a boy learns how to become a man as they watch their dads as they grow up.
The "Internet Culture", is marked by rude manners and bad behavior.
The "Internet Culture" reveals a generation of young men who have grown up with no examples of what being a "man" means...

They dont know how to state their ideas in a conversation, because they have never had an example to learn from.

They dont know how to disagree with respect, , they dont know how to show their elders respect because they have seen no example at home.
They dont see the reason in showing what used to be called "matrurity"

It's not so much that "dads" became expendable.
But the idea of children being "first" in the lives of parents, has become expendable.

[Fonsz]

I would like to add my 0,02 Euro in this highly intriguing(sp?) thread.

The scenario that is sketched here by the honorable mr. Molstad paints a gloomy picture. I somehow get the distinct feeling that these circumstances are very US if I may say so. On this forum I have been called an idiot because I said that there are always two sides to a coin. It was in a matter of why people hated the USA. I pointed out that I could imagine why people would have these feelings. Next thing I knew I was told by US based folks that I condoned the 9/11 attacks and such. I assure you that I don't condone these things, and it makes my heart bleed everytime I see what people are doing to each other all over the World.

We here in Europe usually are a bit behind in developments from the US. They are always the first with inventions, newest gadgets and social experiments. Lots of things that are common in the USA are slowly and gradually creeping in our lives here. In Holland everything even happens 50 years later. We now also have "managers" in all sectors of working environments. The pointy haired boss with his management bla bla is also taking over in Holland.
The situation about the divorced kids is also slowly becoming more common and common and I'm afraid that you are right in your observation that one thing leads to another.
Although I have to say that I have met in person many a contributor of this wonderful institution called Kendo World. I also must say that I have not been disappointed and that they all acted in real life as in their virtual life. So I hope that Kendo has something to do with it or that certain people are doing Kendo. I'm not sure which and I hope to meet as many of the friends that I have made here in real life.

Let's see if I get flamed for bringing up the unloved status of the USA.
Happy New Year!

[tilt]

[QUOTE=Alan Molstad;225769]
The "Internet Culture" reveals a generation of young men who have grown up with no examples of what being a "man" means...
QUOTE]

Do you own a bag of Werther's Originals?

[dwez]

I think you'll find internet forums have their own little vibe on what is and is not acceptable. Where I come from, and here I mean the message board I have most frequently visited for the last 10 years, I am a big fish have a strong understanding of what is acceptable and a strong desire to keep the board going as a 'community'. Occassionally idiots turn up and the rules are enforced, stretched, re-written, what-have-you. It's all about enjoying the community for me.

I've found a great community here, I wish I'd found it sooner, then I may have started back again quicker. There's some new things to take into account - vigorous upholding of the search facility for instance [does that include re-igniting thread from 3 years ago?]. I've had that before on other threads and it wasn't so much as vigorous as militant enough that I never bothered going back to that particualr board. Here, well there'sa lot of knowledge been expressed and discussions discussed, yes, it would seem daft not to retain it.

As it is people are often different on the net and yes, with a certain amount of anonymity there is increased bravado and increased sensitivity to criticism. But with a community like this I think there's much to learn and a community than can in general self-ploice itself.

Meanwhile I stand somewher between these two -

The "I just started learning kendo, but I have a lot to say and I have the right to say it, dang it" type<< anyone under sand dan! hahahahaha, yes unfortunately that includes me!

As I am nikkyu and have a lot to say...

The "I am a fairly decent bloke and I'd just like to help, or have some serious discussion about something I care a lot about. (which is kendo in this case)" type.

Although I like to have non-serious discussion too!

[Ignatz]

I think that those who take the "I have no respect for anyone unless they earn it (according to some benchmark that I will make up with my limited knowledge of life)" attitude should print out their posts and save them for 30 years then look at them again. You might be surprised about how stupid it seems to you.
Very few people get to be old without learning something, it might be difficult to figure out what it is, but there is probably something there. Very few people get to be godan without learning something about kendo. Anybody can make a lot of posts though.

I'm not suggesting that one should bow down to anyone who is old or somehow recognized but I think you should start out with the attitude of respect and let them prove you wrong rather than expecting them to earn it.

On the other hand, it makes little or no difference to me what you do. Statistically, if I were in good health, I am likely to check out in less than 25 years. In reality, I could go any day now. With that in mind, why would I waste my time trying to find out if some young person with a bad attitude is worth my time when there are so many with good attitudes out there?

To those who have had tough childhoods, what can I say? You can waste your time being bitter and grow up to be an angry curmudgeon or you can be happy that you are here and take each day as a gift. Bad things happen to good people, nothing you can do about it. Move on. The very fact that you have a computer and internet access to talk about kendo indicates that you have already hit the lottery. There are billions of people that have it worse, much worse than you.

Be happy and people around you will be happy.

Happy new year.:)

[Paburo]

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?

2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

1. i think the so called internet culture affects everything as we know/once knew it. that includes sports and martial arts too. the same or in a similar (better or worse) way television, radio and cinema affected our culture and habits since some decades ago. i'm not gonna go into the whole "online kendo bad / offline kendo good" can of worms. but as a quick example, we can see how many links and friends this forum has created among the kenshi all around the world. or how we are able to watch and discuss the latest top kendo taikai in the globe almost live. that's def something positive.

2. only time will tell i guess. internet is one of the most important gadjets from the 21st century. it could be a useful tool or a weapon. it can teach you how to antidote yourself in case of accidental poisoning thus saving your life, or it can teach you how to make a homemade bomb to blow your neighbors house and the whole block into pieces. for the time being looks like internet has been more benefitial to kendo than anything else. and long before cyberspace there were plenty bruce lee and bushido karate kid wannabees anyway, so i think it's unfair to blame it on the i-net or forums...

one thing is clear though (and i say this as a fellow webmaster and forum administrator), forums MUST HAVE moderators. to keep off spam, keep posts in some sort of logical order, warn/ban flamers, etc.

forums without mods are a lost cause. thanks neil and kwteam btw...

[Hisham]

I agree with Paburo, i was going to say the same thing but he did a good job at it, the links and friendship part is very true, take me for instance, i spent pretty much 6 months in Orlando back in 2001 without knowing that there was kendo out there, if i was a member here at that time, i would've checked here and easily found out that Orlando did/has a kendo dojo which for sure i would've visited and instead of having only 2 years and half of experience it would've been 3 years or so.

[Fonsz]

To those who have had tough childhoods, what can I say? You can waste your time being bitter and grow up to be an angry curmudgeon or you can be happy that you are here and take each day as a gift. Bad things happen to good people, nothing you can do about it. Move on. The very fact that you have a computer and internet access to talk about kendo indicates that you have already hit the lottery. There are billions of people that have it worse, much worse than you.

Be happy and people around you will be happy.

Happy new year.:)
Eloquently put if I might say, but I beg to differ about the description "tough childhood". You can have all the amenities (sp?) of a regular life but lack the things that mr. Molstad pointed out.
But you're in my case preaching to the converted and that isn't real fun. So back to the difficult issue at hand:
Internet Culture vs. Kendo Culture.

[Paikea]

Let's see if I get flamed for bringing up the unloved status of the USA.

So back to the difficult issue at hand:
Internet Culture vs. Kendo Culture.
So, it's too late now to set Fonz on fire? Damn...

[Charlie]

What a great thread! Sorry to come to it so late. Well, a lot of people have said pretty much what I am thinking.


1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?

Yes. It arms practitioners and instructors with more information and connections. Yes, it may be too much info at times, or info that can not be used because it is not understood or not explainable, but it is definitely a rich resource and has an impact.


2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

Largely beneficial, primarily because it puts people in touch with each other. There's no shortcut to getting better except training, training and... oh, yeah, training. But this forum is a big "second dojo" in which people can make connections, ask questions, get second thoughts, and discuss answers. The truth is, the cat is out of the bag, and if we think the internet is baffling now, wait til another generation or two - people will have computers and net connections in their skulls and be able to upload everything they do and stay connected at all times. Each generation adapts to new technology at a more rapid pace than the previous and uses it in more savvy ways. The cyber-generation, of which we all are to varying degrees, is skilled in ferreting out what info is needed and prioritizing it using a variety of criteria.

I think the only thing the net in general and this site in particular doesn't do well is continuously kick people in the ass and tell them "less talk, more keiko." But then, no one can do less talk more keiko for anyone else, it's something you can only do for yourself.

[Kuma]

Can't reply, too busy practicing.

:D

[tilt]

But then, no one can do less talk more keiko for anyone else, it's something you can only do for yourself.

But wouldn't it be great for the days when you were feeling a bit lazy....

[Hank]

[stuff about respecting old people]Old or young, people I don't know all start out with a baseline level of respect from me (somewhere around neutral). I really don't think age has anything to do with it. I've met many old idiots who still have no idea how the world works and many young geniuses who have figured out very much in their short time. Nothing I've experienced has suggested to me that the old are any more deserving of respect than the young.


I'm not suggesting that one should bow down to anyone who is old or somehow recognized but I think you should start out with the attitude of respect and let them prove you wrong rather than expecting them to earn it. I think this should be the case for all, no matter the age. And as far as kendo goes, there are cases where I respect some people's kendo, but think they're total bastards otherwise. How people treat other people is my major barometer for respect. Not much else matters to me.

Hank.

[Ignatz]

A few random thoughts Hank.
Don't forget you are practicing an art that comes from a country that practices Shinto. Where ogisan and ogiisan are terms of respect.

That being said, I don't disagree with you but (there's always one of them isn't there?) as I get older I tend to make my decisions quicker, having seen (or invented) most of the bullshit.

Oftentimes I will read a post (or listen to what someone says in person) and almost immediately think this is not worth my time. At that point I have no interest in pursuing it any further so if I get on someone's case I have not written them off yet.

If someone is not interested in what I have to say or what I have seen or done, makes little differenence to me.

In my generation the call was "Don't trust anyone over thirty". In retrospect the people who advocated that position were generally full of crap.

The only thing revolution ever changed was the name of the oppressor.

[Masahiro]

in the book Tao de Jing (bible for Taoists), there is a saying. ..

"those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know". <<hmm, i wonder what that would mean for some of "us" who are so quick with our tongue.

i think men/women who take great care and dedication to learn how to utilize/manipulate words/language, should also try to 1)learn how to talk less, and 2)learn how to be less spunky (unlik how they were, when they were younger) ... .. . such individual would inspire respect more than a old fart who always knows what the say, and when to say it.


that is all,

[Airin]

I knew that something called "kendo" exists reading in Internet, then I searched more information on Internet, then I thought it could be funny. So I searched a dojo near my home in Internet and sent an e-mail to ask information about lessons and received the answers I needed.
I don't know if Internet is good kendo at large, but I wouldn't surely do kendo now if I hadn't an Internet connection. So how many people like me are there around the world?

[Oni]

When I start to browse the forum, I look at the avatars and names. I can imagine some "people" sitting there typing some verbal agression. I just posted a thread and a sort of hell came loose. I used text that was'nt mine, later I posted the links. Wait and see what happens next. The text was really taken under the microscope and there was a verbal punishment. But by who? A digital "something". A infant with a dictionary?

The forum is good as a resource, inspiration and a laugh! I don't take it too serious. But I'm just starting in this forum so, heads up!

[NigelSponge]

Well, I think that we should act and converse with eachother on this forum (anywere on the internet) as if we were in person. I think many of the put-down like comments I have seen are very rude, and dont display the true social virtues of kendo.
Most of the comments on this forum are positive and helpful, but everynow and then I will see a comment, that, if was being said to me, would really bring me down. Sometimes I don't want to ask certain questions, out of fear that someone will make me feel stupid about asking it and publicly embarrass me.
In lamance terms, I think posts on this forum and other internet sites related to kendo, should be said as if you were face to face with the person.

Nigel

[pepo]

I somewhat agree. Although I have received many good and helpfull answers I've also gotten some very diminishing come-backs with, i think, intention to ridiculize in them (ironically some of them also with good advices). But for what i can tell so far, i think not only the majority of the comments we dislike, for one reason or another, are only directed to new-comers, but new-comers are not use to this kind of reply or are simply expecting a different receptiveness (I was) especially from a kendo forum, which makes it even worse, anthitesizing its philosophy (and you don't have to be hachidan" to know that's part of it). Maybe its because whole "beginers sweep the floor" kind of mentality that sometimes kendo also enforces, but sometimes people tend to forget that these beginers might also be older men or women that demand more respect, and what damage could some of these uninviting answers do to the "true beginner" that will come here in search for answers and curiosity before he/she even tries the sport? certainly not draw-in. It seems that sometimes the more "experienced" are the more ruthless, and not always in agood way. I hope i'm wrong but for what I've seen it seems in this forum the nature of your remarks are purly controled by the number of posts you carry (which also makes you easily judgeable), the more posts you have the meaner you get to be, without sometimes taking in consideration the time of exposure to the actual sport.

Now I'm not saying it sould all be "peace and love" but the honest intention to share ideas, and a bit of courtesy and common sense might just do the trick. In fact i think sometimes hard points have to be made, but to get to the extreme of not asking a question for fear of embarassment, that's just too much, and i always find myslef thinking twice before writing a post and even more while writing it, i dont think it should be that way.

I'm lucky that i dont get upset to easy and that i can sense the good intentions in some tough criticism, and i dont mind a good sometimes nasty controversial debacle but not everybody is the same, the sad thing is that people that don't, don't really have any other place to go, that contain this much, good information. I've been told that i post too much, too useless, too eager, too novice, and have been called ignorant (among others) in this forum more than i ever had in my entire life, and sometimes even if my comments are right, just to make sure i remember it; but the odd thing is that i'm getting used to it, and not only that, but i think I'm starting to get how things work around here, and the more I stick around the more i like it, i think the idea is to by lack of options lower your head as much as you can and start from there, and if you're still around, eventually you might get accepted; which i dont necesarily agree with, but it doesn't seem to change anytime soon, i'll just try to keep in mind when i get to 2000+ posts not get to these extremes.

My advice to newbees like myself, if you find yourself in this position, is to at least at the very beggining, even if you don't think you're what some might say you are, lower your standards, try not to stand out too much, come low profile, try not to make any personal or judgemental remarks about "anything" "at all", don't jump to conclusions too quickly, take some heat, swallow your pride, but dont be a pushover, do not "kiss asses" as i've seen some do (very shameful), be honest, have some personality and speak your mind, and do it well, and i think eventually you/we will get there, as i'm still to find this is true. All that of course only if you think it is worhty, cause it may take some work. I've personally failed misserably in some of these ideas that i found a bit too late to be useful in this case, and still trying to make my way away from the bottom. I haven't looked yet but I'm sure someone or somwhere in this forum you may find the do's and dont's of posting at kendo-world, if not it might be a good idea for a novice's first thread.

At any rate, if anybody got this far, i'm sorry for the extra long blabbing, and hope to be helpfull to somebody. I better, be cause i'm sure this is gonna cost me some point around.

[Hisham]

It's ok to rant but Ben did explain and clarify in your thread why some of the members responded "aggressively" and if you want to have a bit of an idea on a members way of seing things, check out there old posts, you'll understand quickly that there are many members who don't have that many posts but there comments are pretty valuable. Take me for instance i'm over the 1000 post mark but that doesn't mean anything, the key word here is real experience in the art not the virtual or theoritical one.

[pepo]

Ben did explain and clarify in your thread why some of the members responded "aggressively"

Yes, yes he did, he wrote to me very wisely, and its the rason why i'm starting to have a better understanding, this is part of what he wrote:


The difficulty for non-native speakers is that subtle nuances of tone can be read into their posts which maybe they did not put there deliberately: arrogance is probably the main one that people look for between the lines of any post by a newbie. This cannot be helped and the only way around it is to take some heat and then calmly explain what you meant. Much as you have done. Even native English speakers stumble on this one--they meant one thing but it came across sounding like another. It's just part of what gave us homo sapiens such a large brain. We have to negotiate the delicacies of social interaction all the time.

Also, please be advised that the kumdo/kendo thing is a touchy subject that has been done to death, and from all possible angles. You broach this subject carelessly at your peril.

Otherwise it would seem you have survived your baptism, welcome to Kendo World. b


the key word here is real experience in the art not the virtual or theoritical one.

Well said, agreed.

I said all i needed to say to get of my chest, I'll be off this subject, and the rest would be to enjoy the ride. I just wish this can be helpful to others

[Oni]

Helpfull, pre-review. hahaha

[selegilineHCL]

1. Do you think that the so called internet culture (even that found here on these forums) effects Kendo in real life as it is practiced and taught?

I don't think so.

It is true there are some hot heads and a lot of what we call "spam" on the forums, but here and there is some good information, and often excellent information. Especially for people from small dojos with limited resources of information.

I think the internet is a very good opportunity for the world to learn more about kendo, but kendo federation should be hard at work to make sure it is represented well on these forums.

I also think its a great way for instructors to learn about the ugly side of their students so they can take that information to the dojo and address it there.

I think in general, people are becoming more entitled and ruder, but this is not the internet's fault per se, but a general problem.

2. Do you think this effect of "Internet Culture" is largely benefitial or overall detrimental to the development and evolution of Kendo as it is taught in real life?

I think the last think Kendo has to worry about is "Internet Culture." That is a somewhat niave thing to say, forgive me for saying so, though very understandible.

There are other things in this culture that make it bad such as materialism, sensualism, athiesm, egoism, abortion, hate, and war. Perhaps Kendo is not doing enough in its practice or teaching to tackle these problems. Character development is a hallmark of true kendo practice and teaching I think. And Kendo is about Budo also. The internet makes it easier for people to be rude and gives them a larger forum to show their ignorance. In my opinion, teachers should not be shunning the internet becasue it wasn't around when swordsmanship was developing, but actively admonishing their students who missbehave on the internet either in their dojos or/and these forums as well if needs be.

If I was a sensei I would monitor what my students said on the internet and I would use that as one more piece of information about them to know how I could help them grow and develop better or correct. I would be honest and tough if needs be.

[Bogu Headache]

Internet culture vs Kendo culture

BAM and it was done.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9692/unfunnybz1.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Internet knuckleheads will never influence Kendo; they'll turn up to practices and either never turn up again because its not what they wanted/too hard, or have the stupid trained out of them. I prefer the idea of Kendo influencing the internet; I would never have found one without the other.