pressure versus waiting

[Ignatz]

In several discussions we have considered waiting versus pushing the opponent to attack and I have tried to explain my thoughts but I feel that I have not done that well. I feel that waiting is almost always a mistake and is slow. Tonight I thought of it like comparing a single action gun to a double action gun. In both cases the pull of the trigger is the same and the hammer falls the same. If I cock (pressure-seme) the gun all that has to happen is for the hammer to fall. If I wait (fire the gun double action) the hammer must rise and fall which takes at least twice as much time.

Once I cock the gun the opponent hopefully will feel anxiety and will react.

[yoda-waza]

...I thought of it like comparing a single action gun to a double action gun. In both cases the pull of the trigger is the same and the hammer falls the same. If I cock (pressure-seme) the gun all that has to happen is for the hammer to fall. If I wait (fire the gun double action) the hammer must rise and fall which takes at least twice as much time.

Once I cock the gun the opponent hopefully will feel anxiety and will react.

Yeah, but the quick-draw guys will gun you down as you cock the trigger. There's seme but there's zanshin, too.

[ben]

Yes I think that's a good analogy. Part of the difficulty of kendo is knowing exactly how to "cock the gun". How do you make your opponent know you are fair dinkum and not just piss-farting around (to use the local vernacular)?

One of my biggest realisations in kendo was that seme closes down suki in yourself and opens suki in your opponent. That came only about 2 years ago.

b

[Koki]

When I seme, I'm in control. When I am waiting, he's in control.

But then there are people who know how to use invisible seme, so they may appear like they are waiting.... yep... waiting to wack you.

[Masahiro]

usually, i'll try to make the first strike with a partner i've never sparred before. that way they will "learn" that "oh, he can hit me from that distance" so next time i move in and "seme" (if you will), they'll react. it's not good trying to "seme" an opponent right off the bat unless you are extremely skilled with your footwork and timing. because, (with all due respect to everyone on here) i must say most people's seme... "sucks". (by most people I mean most nidan, some sandan, not so many but still some yondan, usually godan and up are pretty good.) for example, i'll spar with someone who i can see is clearly "trying" to seme me, but i know they can not hit me from that distance. ..(tom ma) so in that case, if your opponent knows you are not capable .. like not fast enough or not skilled enough, or he/she's got your timing memerized, you can seme all you want. but it's not going to make your opponent "jump the gun" sorta speak.

when i think of the times i try to keiko against Ariga sensei, Shikai sensei, and Maeda sensei (and others like them) i get this distinct feeling of "they are going to hit me, they are going to counter what i do, i have to hit them first... maybe a debana".. ..regardless of whether i feel like they've "cocked" their gun or not. I feel inadequate in front of them, it's weird. they may be totally relaxed even, meaning not even pressuring me. ... so i don't think "semse"/pressuring necessarily equates to "cocking" your gun, but i am open to hear others opinion. (i am rarely right, i know that!) anyways.. just my random thoughts.

[Ignatz]

The reason I thought about the cocked gun idea was last night, during keiko, the gun went off accidentally. My partner suddenly changed his style from a highly aggressive, in your face thing to one more like mine. It made me very uncomfortable. While I try to stay relaxed, I need the pressure from the partner to really make my pressure work.
In any event, while manuvering he left himself open and I hit his men without even thinking about it. It surprised me. I used absolutely no effort but got a beautiful "pop".
Something for me to work on for a couple more years and maybe do it again.

[hyuna]

I feel that waiting is almost always a mistake and is slow.
From what I understand, you are absolutely correct. The thing I am not sure about is that maybe waiting is simply always a mistake.

I am not entirely clear about the idea of "pushing the opponent to attack."

As ben points out, when you seme, you close off suki in yourself. It seems unreasonable to expect someone to attack you when you have closed off all of the weaknesses in your kamae. A beginner will do it, but that isn't particularly meaningful.

As I understand it, you can seme to produce weaknesses in your opponent that you can attack, but that isn't "pushing the opponent to attack." Or, you can seme to build pressure and then pull your opponent in by somehow upsetting that tension -- maybe by showing them what looks like an opening. This is not waiting, but it doesn't seem the same as "pushing the opponent to attack."

[Ignatz]

When you put on the pressure your partner has essentially two options
1. attack because he feels that he is about to be attacked
2. deer in the headlights

There is also the "mexican standoff"

I am also trying to figure out how to deal with the young, good and really fast players that don't respond because their game plan is simply to hit me at warp speed. I recognize that there is a slightly different movement for kote than for men now if I can just get my body to do what I want without having to process what I see.

Arthur: The waiting I am talking about is "passive waiting" for want of a better term.

[ScottUK]

Surely 'passive' anything is bad in kendo? :)

Me, being a big guy I'm more of a counter-puncher and I like it just fine that way...

[yoda-waza]

3. Dissipate pressure by re-direction.

Isn't that how aikido flows?

[Old Warrior]

When you put on the pressure your partner has essentially two options
1. attack because he feels that he is about to be attacked
2. deer in the headlights

There is also the "mexican standoff"

I am also trying to figure out how to deal with the young, good and really fast players that don't respond because their game plan is simply to hit me at warp speed.
Since we are about the same age, it's not surprising that I think about this also. However, I am not so concerned about their speed. It is my theory that its not necessary to be fast - just faster than your opponent thinks you are. Secondly, when I identify one of these "Mercury" types, I open the center a wee bit to let them think they have the green light and then slam the door shut with a counter (I particularly like a left side do, done with feeling). Also, since I'm a big guy, sometimes I just block and hold ground letting them hit the brick wall. My goal is to slow them down by making them think twice that they have the green light.

When I am at my most devious, I attack men knowing the opponent will deflect and counter, and I am ready to then block with the shoto (in my left hand) and counter. I have found that most people don't practice these routines where the intended point is the counter to the counter. I love the look on a Mercury's face when a fat old guy upsets their simple plan.

[Fonsz]

When you put on the pressure your partner has essentially two options
1. attack because he feels that he is about to be attacked
2. deer in the headlights

There is also the "mexican standoff"

I am also trying to figure out how to deal with the young, good and really fast players that don't respond because their game plan is simply to hit me at warp speed. I recognize that there is a slightly different movement for kote than for men now if I can just get my body to do what I want without having to process what I see.


What might work is to put your right foot a slight bit forward. As quick as you can draw in your left foot. sometimes at that point you have broken the kamae of the warp speed guy because he's thinking '*Oooh!*' when you hit men it usually is a hit. Not nescesarily an Ippon but a hit because you broke their Kamae. It works sometimes and you got to have a lot of Ki hence the name Ki Seme. Trying to be faster than the Warp speed guy will get you (me) nowhere.
You must study this dilligently. To con a phrase.

[Ignatz]

If you watch closely, almost everyone has a "tell". When they are going kote their approach is different than men. Oftentimes it is school based because after time people in the same dojo start playing the same.

I have had some limited success in attacking the "Tell" but I am still at the stage of seeing, processing in my brain, then acting. Gotta get the brain out of the equation, it slows me down.

Fonz: I will move the right foot in slightly, quickly followed by the left. This is what will often produce the "deer in the headlights" which is your opportunity to attack. I do this when the other guy does not attack in response to my pressure.

[Fonsz]

If you watch closely, almost everyone has a "tell". When they are going kote their approach is different than men. Oftentimes it is school based because after time people in the same dojo start playing the same.

I have had some limited success in attacking the "Tell" but I am still at the stage of seeing, processing in my brain, then acting. Gotta get the brain out of the equation, it slows me down.


You may be on to something here but I think it is best to try to be in control and not depend on the 'weakness' of the opponent. Maybe I'm on a tangent with this thought but if possible it's better to be on the high ground Ki wise speaking. Then it doesn't matter who's in front of you because most of the times you can see everything coming. That your reaction is too late or too little is I guess a matter of practice to make it perfect.



Fonz: I will move the right foot in slightly, quickly followed by the left. This is what will often produce the "deer in the headlights" which is your opportunity to attack. I do this when the other guy does not attack in response to my pressure
There you go, this the proof that great minds think alike. I wonder what will happen if we ever cross our shinai? It must be the biggest bang since the hydrogen bomb:rolleyes:. Or two rabbits in the xenon headlights.:disapp:

[NEM]

Hello,
I'm new here. Sorry for my english I`ll do my best. I love this part of kendo (pressure or wait) because is very difficult for me try to have a good seme. I agree that waiting is not the best option if you do it ALLWAYS. But some times if you notice that your oponenet makes a big suki before attack, that`s a good reason for wait for the attack.

In other way, when you have been pressured, what do you think if you move your body to the right with hiraki ashi winning the center and putting your opponent out of it?. I heared in some conversation.

[Masahiro]

i ponder about this for a couple of days, and here's my final thoughts.

if you are not actively "pressuring"(seme) your opponent, then you are "waiting" and if you are waiting then you are not keeping "en" (the connection between a live situation between two opponents) so let me take back what i said in my first post of this thread, you should always try and apply seme even before you step onto the court, but try to not let the "chances" pass by, you've gotta when it's your shot! other wise pressuring your opponent mindlessly is just waiting! <<that's the best I can put it, cheers

[nikozamo]

...the(your) seme needs to construct your own chances to attack. (i try to make that)

[ben]

Here's (http://z2.invisionfree.com/UMKC_Forum/index.php?showtopic=768&view=findpost&p=883076) a great post by one of the sempai of my old club, quite pertinent to this discussion.
b

[Ignatz]

Yeah Ben,
". . . There was too much taking place in our transition from our Kamae to the actual cut, and we need to eliminate this transition so as to be able to cut more efficiently, enabling us to cut more variety of Waza successfully. "

That's what I'm trying to do, but with limited success thus far.:mad:

[Masahiro]

great thoughts on that forum ben, thanks for sharing. Who is this Arita sensei they speak of (if you don't mind me asking), and i totally agree with what he said about not being able to transform the solid kamae into a solid but the minimum but sufficient effort.

[ben]

Masa: the group that visited was called the Kanto Gakuren, an association of university kendo teams from the Kanto area. I'm not sure which University Arita sensei is from.

b

[rfoxmich]

To get an idea of what Ignatz is saying. Next time you are drilling oji-waza try this in two ways:
1. Just wait for the motodachi to attack and then do the technique.
2. Make your own pressure on the motodachi rather than just waiting.

See which one is sharper and more reliable.