Teaching/learning how to deliver DO

[cesarekim]

I was always taught that do-uchi is about hand and relative position. By that I mean that the left hand should be in front of you and you should never be so close that you hit with the thick end of the shinai. We've all been hit in interesting places by misplaced do hits. Just as a curiousity, do you advocate full speed execution on motodachi when you are learning or not? In other words, once you have the basic mechanics down, do you hit at full speed or do you choke it down? I've personally found accuracy suffers as speed decreases but I was curious to hear other people's experiences...

[Halcyon]

Beginners tend to be very tentative about hitting do. I find that I have to encourage them and reassure them that it's actually okay to hit at full speed. It takes a while. It's when they've got a little bit of experience under their belts that they become hazardous. :cry:

[Charlie]

Well, my thoughts: as Neil said in the other thread, it's a good idea to encourage motodachi turning the body to the left a bit to offer up a more sizable doh target and protect the chest from a misplaced hit. But I think doh is simply one of the harder waza and just takes a long time to get, then even longer to whip into decent shape that you can start using it regularly in jigeiko. One thing we have tried is having attacker cut the doh but not go through - so, perhaps, cut the doh four times, slowly, stopping each time and not following through, then on the fifth go all the way through.

[sainueng]

Halcyon and Charlie make very good points.

Personally I advocate each strike should be ippon or yuko datotsu. No more, no less. Easier said than done. :p

Another thing I suggest is that as motodachi, position your hands and arms where they would be at for zanshin after a men, not above your head like jodan. This reduces the chances of being struck between your armpits and the top of the do, which is where it hurts the most. It's also about as open as you'll usually see a do.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think once they have the mechanics OK, they should hit full speed. Mishit doh are often the result of people being too cautious, rather than over-zealous. Beginners are very conscious of missing, and so they tend to try to place the kensen on the doh, guiding it with the right hand. Non-intuitively, just swinging normally and having the hands in the right place is more accurate.

One thing we do in our dojo that many places don't is teach doh going through to the left. It is easier to understand the proper maai doing it this way, and to see where the monouchi is supposed to hit. If you teach them to cross to the right first, then they tend to just slap the front from too close. Once they have it going left, going right is simply a matter of adjusting which way you step.

[kenshi212]

"charlie" has some very good advice. i would also watch kendo instructional videos and watch, and try to imitate the proper form fisrt... and then practice consistently at each practice for a couple months. since i'm not a great listener, i tend to do better by watching others.... hope that helps you and good luck!

[Kent Enfield]

This is one of the reasons I like teaching the bokuto kihon before letting beginners use shinai on a motodachi. You can work through a lot of the accuracy issues without anyone getting clobbered.

Bokuto also make hasuji issues much more obvious.

[yoda-waza]

This is one of the reasons I like teaching the bokuto kihon before letting beginners use shinai on a motodachi. You can work through a lot of the accuracy issues without anyone getting clobbered.

Bokuto also make hasuji issues much more obvious.

Exactly. Kihon waza practice with bokuto is more illustrative in many respects than with shinai and bogu, especially for beginners.

...and what is this all about left hand in front? If you strike do-uchi with the left hand leading, it seems to me the strike will be too deep and likely to be hitting the front of the motodachi's do with the shinai below the monouchi. Shouldn't you ideally be striking with your shinai while you are still in front of the motodachi so the shinai is striking the right-front side of his do along the monouchi instead having passed so close to his side where it is more likely to strike the front of his do and below the shinai's monouchi?

I was taught that for do-uchi your shinai hasuji is on the diagonal and the strike is forward of you. As a consequence, your right hand, not left, will be slightly forward at point of impact.

[Fudo-Shin]

I think what the other posters were saying is that your left hand should be in front of the hara at the point of impact. And yes, you "should "be in front of motodachi at the time of the strike...not to the side. But it happens so quickly sometimes that it looks otherwise.

I totally agree with sainueng about motodachi not holding the shinai too high like in jodan as some people do. If you give them only enough room to hit there is less chance of missing the dou and it is also more realistic as the opening during keiko/shiai is very small anyway.

[yoda-waza]

Ohhh, that clears it up. The left hand should, of course, be drawn toward the center of your own doh (or hara) which is "in front of you." The OP's wording threw me off. The right hand, however, is "in front" of the left, though not directly but rather forward-left. The right and left hands are rotated toward the left (counter-clockwise, about 45º) for correct hasuji in striking the migi-doh.

[yoda-waza]

I meant to suggest an oji-waza practice technique we occasionally use to discern correct timing and to sharpen aim in doh striking practice. For lack of a better description it might be described as men-suriage/kaeshi-doh (please chime in if you know the correct term). The motodachi stands erect and delivers a constant series of shomen-uchi strikes while standing still. The kakarite is also standing still at chika-maai distance from motodachi with his legs akimbo, i.e., slightly crouching so as to place his strikes straight out at the level of motodachi's doh. He counters each of motodachi's men strikes, alternating suriage-migi-doh then kaeshi-gyaku-doh. The pace is ramped up as the rythym is synchronized between the pair.

[bullet08]

i like do. i'm always looking for do cut. when i help newer people with do, one thing that determines the correct cut is the location of the hands. the left hand should drive the do cut like any other cut. and left hand must be in the center and the arm fully extended, and not over the right hand. when i practice do cut, i always do first cut very slow, specially if the aite is much smaller than me. it's sort of like making sure where the target is. once i know what is good hand position for the do for that aite, i go full speed. normally i will strike as soon as i see the aite raising his shinai, before the arms are parallel to the floor.

one thing i really hate is people trying to cut do when there is no opening, and those who lack the control to stop the shinai when they realize that there is no opening. and know zanshin and all and one should commit to the cut, but when is rather obivious that the do is not open then they really shouldn't try to smash through aite's elbow.

pete

[Charlie]

Sain, that's a great suggestion. Lot of good advice here.

By the way, I should have said "turn to the right," not left. Sorry!

[namabiru]

As far as introducing do, I'm a member of the school that says you shouldn't even put foot work in for a while with do--wait longer than with kote or men. Make them stand in front of a motodachi until the hands are natural. Then don't go all the way through, but just do a one-step one-strike next. Then go through.

Going to the left rather than the right at first is an interesting idea, Neil! But do you find that beginning kenshi tend to get off-balanced (bringing the shinai to their right or left) by chance?

Another common mistake is that you'll get beginners who bring the shinai clear up above their heads like they're going to strike men or kote. Such a big movement isn't necessary.

I also use the puppet visualization, where a kenshi's arms are on strings, so you have to stay centered. Right now we're having trouble with young kenshi bringing the sword clear around like a backwards baseball bat swing.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Going to the left rather than the right at first is an interesting idea, Neil! But do you find that beginning kenshi tend to get off-balanced (bringing the shinai to their right or left) by chance? The arm movement is exactly the same no matter which way you step. You are still hitting the left side (opponent's right), still making a 45 degree angle, still hitting with the monouchi. All you are doing is going through to the left rather than the right. The only difference is footwork - to go to the left, step so that your right foot lines up with the aite's right foot. To go to the right, step about 30-45 degrees to your right. Keep the upper body motion the same.

[cesarekim]

Thank you all for your suggestions.

I'll practice on my dummy tonight and add do-uchi to my footwork exercises. Tomorrow morning it's asageiko time so will let you know the effects of your points on really sleepy people :evil:

cheers