Fighting people who just seem to back off!

[Nishi]

Just wondering.....do you always seem to be the one moving forward, or are you the one moving back?

What do you do when your opponent seems to just back off and wait......then when you attack they jump out even further, sometimes returning with a dodgy nuki men?

How do you battle those who refuse to engage?

[emitbrownne]

I'd love to know the answer to this as well....

However I will admit.. I am a bit of a waiting person myself.. and I try not to go backwards.

I'm now trying to develop my => => forward-forward approach, which is when the oponent steps back and my first cut misses... go for the second cut (quite hard for my lazy kendo)

(before anyone start to barrage me.. please note I am only a humble Kyu grade.)

[KhawMengLee]

"Fierce as Fire. Swift as the Wind. Silent as a Forest. Immovable as a mountain. Takeda Shingen


The mountain does not move.:chinese:

[JSchmidt]

"How do you battle those who refuse to engage?"

Well, eventually they'll run out of room to back off into!.
Otherwise, seme, seme and ni/san-dan waza.

In chudan, I will occasionally take a step backwards, usually to try to suck the opponent in, but obviously, in jodan, there is no such thing as going back. For me, during (jodan) ji-geiko, taking a step back feels like defeat.

Jakob

[KhawMengLee]

Grrr...I get this all the time. I refuse to back off and a few of my sempais do the same so we are stuck there in taiatari in an endless waltz.

I try to follow my Sensei...if you watch him fight, you notice that they start in the centre but after the first few exchanges you notice that the opponent is forced towards the wall. He just refuses to step back...even when you both agree to move back into issoku itto, he stands still and you step back...grr

[nollaig]

When you train with Yanai Sensi you will never back up!
if you do he will push you till you drop

Yanai Sensei points out that up to 6th Dan we
don't possess the ability to be able to use the tactic of withdraw
to any great extant

He recommends as soon as your maai is reached, wait, have patience,
Allow the mental pressure to build then attack

Even if your opponent attacks first your are in a state of readiness
Since you are ready to attack your self

You are more likely to get the ippon

[iwatekenshi]

If you step back until you are against the wall then that means your seme is weak. Your teacher wants you to attack because that's the only way you'll learn to seme properly. Don't care if you can hit men or whatever, because probably YOU CAN'T.

If I find my opponent constantly backing up then hey that might be a good sign my seme is good, however he or she is not learing anything by backing off so neither am I. If this goes on and on then it's...Bye-bye...WHO'S NEXT???

[iwatekenshi]

Forgot...

who's next or uchikomigeiko :evil:

[Nishi]

Tried something a little different with "those who refuse to engage "last night. Instead of applying seme consistantly, i would break at certain intervals and allow my opponent to regroup and this for some reason made them instigate the next attack, which gave me what i needed....someone to engage me....i found i could then use oji-waza, or pour the pressure on and my opponent stayed put (more or less)......and i could attack as usual.

Im not sure if my opponent just needed a chance (not to sound egotistacal(sp?)) or if i gave a false sense of oppurtunity, but a bit of patience and what appears to be a break in seme/conection is paying off.......try it, and let me know what you find!!

[alexpollijr]

Retreating people are a good target for long reached strikes like katatezuki. Works wonders. Sometimes they fall flat on their buttocks. It also takes your right kote away from those 'hit-and-retreat' kote hitters.

- Alexandre

[MACSTA]

My friend told me that he read somewhere, that a study was done to show that how people play arcade games reflect on their life/personality. Example; if in street fighter, tekken or other you keep moving back and blocking, this may be reflected in ya kendo?? anyone agrees? thoughts, comments... ;)

[Nishi]

As for video games, i have heard it increases eye hand
co-ordination, however the muscle memory needs to be trained as well as the sub-concious memory.....there is no substitue for keiko. And there is no substitute for a good video game :D

Our little poll is showing something interesting...one third the voters move forward offensivley, one third move forward defensivley, and the last third do whatever they need to.

Is moving forward offensivley overated, or is it an instructional tool for the sandan and below group? More voters should may clear the air.

[aru-ma]

"Is moving forward offensivley overated, or is it an instructional tool for the sandan and below group? More voters should may clear the air."

I personally don't think that moving forward offensively is over-rated, its called seme if you forgot :) and its important in kendo, but I shouldnt be telling you this shouldnt I? since you already know it;)

[Stan]

In my opinion kendo shiai is about movement, kamae, and seme. The actual striking kote or men (or whatever) is a mere formality. The match (or point) is won by the former. That is to say, if you use kamae and seme to control the movements of your opponent then you win. I would suggest that keeping the pressure on by moving forward is better because even techniques like debana waza are best used when the opponent is pressured into the attack because he has run out of room or just feels that he must get out of this tight spot. If you are too defensive and are waiting for the attack chances are that you will not have the correct timing (gaman) for the waza. One caveat however, there is an old saying that goes, "when you think you are fu**ing them, that's when they are fu**ing you". So be certain who exactly is controlling the movement.

Stan

[Nishi]

I am one of those "move forward always hunting" types as well, trouble is "those who refuse to engage", make me wonder wether there is a limit to how much pressure you can place on someone... or mabye im just at the stage now where im starting to understand pressure, but not how to control it.

[Ross McFarlane]

I am quite tall, so I often move back to maintain a distance where I can hit an opponent, but they can't hit me.

[Nishi]

I think by moving back to a "safe distance" you are really only inviting your opponent to close the gap, and unless you have a good understanding about tactical withdrawl, you may only invite a disadvantage.

"Gibbo" on the British squad, is very tall, must be 6'2" or 6'3" and he is forever moving forward....he strikes at the kote, then moves in for the men into tai-atari then hiki-waza out and repeat.....very vicious, always ontop of you and in control....

[nollaig]

Which is why he got a fighting spirit award in WKC
if my memory is correct...

[mingshi]

Which is why he is moving to Jodan as well...

(Why are we talking about him so much behind his back?)

[Nishi]

Its relevent to the thread....he moves forward aggresively with out moving back (unless hiki).

I think the small amount of voters has really shown the different stratagies available though......but im still trying to sort through the question "How do you battle those who refuse to engage?

[Charlie]

Personally I think those that consistently "refuse to engage" are, to be blunt, doing it wrong.

If I get someone backing off from me all the time I chase them, tsuki them, men, men, men, men.

Edit: Further, I'll just stop and jokingly ask them if they are ready to play and walk (backwards) back to the center of the play area. Personally, I was taught that "Gibbo's" way of doing things is correct, esp. in the beginning stages.