speed of technique

[jezah81]

Hi guyz,
i was reading my new Book of Five Rings and Miyomato Musashi mentions a certain part about speed of technique and says not to worry about speed because it will make it harder to wield the sword.
Now, i use a sword of around 1.25 kilos, and when i do nukitsuke i try to do it as fast as possible but this tires me out quickly. So, my question to you guys is, how important is speed? In a real life situation, how important is it? Is it as important as correct technique?
Regards,
Jeremy Hagop

[chidokan]

Speed will come as you learn the correct technique, however the ability to understand timing and distance is more important. Watch the old guys doing kendo and you will see they dont move especially fast, just that they are in the right place at the right time.
Take your time and learn the techniques properly, you will notice timing dictates speed.
For nukitsuke it should be an acceleration, not balls out all the time. Your teacher should give you a good explanation for jo ha kyu that will demonstrate this.
Your sword is also too heavy for long practise at your level, try to get one around 900 grammes with a good balance. This will also stop you using your upper body and arm muscles to cut and make you focus more on your hara. Think foot, then body then sword.

Tim Hamilton

[Richie224]

jezah81 wrote i was reading my new Book of Five Rings and Miyomato Musashi mentions a certain part about speed of technique and says not to worry about speed because it will make it harder to wield the sword

An interesting point that has come across a while a go is that, a lot of scholars in Japan are under the impression Musashi didn't infact write the 'The book of five rings' (or spheres). I first came across this idea here
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_musashi.htm

Unfortunately I haven't come across any English texts that develope on this. (Perhaps it would make an interesting article for Kendo World *hint* *hint*) :D

Admist the Musashi revival in Japan there are books coming into print in Japan also puting these ideas across ......... if they will ever make it in to English translation is another thing!:(

[chidokan]

o.k. its a fair cop... I admit I wrote go rin no sho and smuggled it into Japan...:D :D :D
Not sure how far this will go, but this seems to happen a lot with certain historical figures, along the lines of what they did or did not do, Ueshiba from aikido being a recent case in point.
What he did or otherwise doesnt really bother me as its nice to have some little stories around, true or not, and the system he promoted is still extant today.

Tim Hamilton

[Richie224]

Well it's no different to any other folk hero ...... I mean look at Robin Hood, Frayer Tuck was added by the Victorians to add a Christian element to the story .... I was eleven when I found out ...gutted.

[Hyaku]

Well I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion based on what they read.

But doesnt this rather belittle those that have an historical/professional interest in artifacts and documentation held by museums. Does everyone actualy think they they just look at these things and have no professional methods using modern day science to determine the authenticity of such items?

Also people like the Hosokawa family and Ogasawara that preserve a living tradition of themselves and people that worked for them.

I would hardly liken this to Robin Hood and Frayer Tuck? (Friar). Here we have an actual nationaly recognized grave.

Someone better pop up to Moji (Kita Kyushu) and tell Miyamoto San that his ancestor didnt exist and all the manuscripts and scrolls he has are fake.

They could pop into the Kokura Museum and sack the staff and go down to Shimada museum in Kumamoto to tell them all their stuff is fake and that they are redundant too. Better disband the Nihon Kobudo Renmei while your at it.

I better unpack my bags for trips to the Philipphines and Canada to teach this stuff. Was it all in my imagination?

But then again I feel that if the people spent a bit of time in the dojo rather than selling the books they might understand a little more

One might equally say that Oe Masamichi did not exist. Why dont we just put our swords on racks and put this whole thing down to a load of bullsh?t!

Hyaku

[Richie224]

I don't think my statement was ment to be that far reaching, do you?

It was an example of what can happen in the extreme.

[chidokan]

Hyaku,
I refuse to believe your answer as you do not exist and you are actually a figment of my imagination .... due to this fact there is no need for you to spend any more money on diving kit as you will not need any air underwater....:wink:
All sorted for Canada then? I expect to see some big salmon fishing photos as I cant afford to go myself!!!
Just getting ready to go to bonnie Scotland salmon fishing so its my last mail before I go for a week and give the BB's a rest... if I catch anything I'll let you know.. regards to Chiyo-chan BTW.. (that'll wind her up...) :tongue:
Niten class doing o.k.????

Tim Hamilton

[Silverleaf]

So, my question to you guys is, how important is speed? In a real life situation, how important is it? Is it as important as correct technique?

I'm curious as to what you mean by "in a real life situation" - when was the last time you were walking down a dark alley with a katana through your belt, and some bully with a katana through his belt challenged you to a duel? :P

I suppose if we were to imagine a real-life sword fight, speed might be somewhat more important than technique - being able to cut someone up real nice and technical is no good if it takes you so long that your opponent gets to make a quick and nasty cut at you first. Really, once you're cut you're in serious trouble, so I suppose speed might be the more important thing. But hey, don't quote me on that - I'm yet to get in a real sword fight! A kendoka might be able to give you a more valid idea on that, since they actually get "cut" if they're too slow.

From an iaido perspective, my advice (and again, don't quote me on this - this is the advice of a junior student!) would be that technique is more important than speed. My sensei have no problem with me running through waza at a slower speed if I feel I need to to straighten something out, so long as the relative timing between components of the waza are timed correctly. I've heard this justified with "If you can't do something right slowly, how can you expect to do it right quickly?". Although you should eventually aim to be able to execute things with good technique at high speed, I think technique is always the more important thing and speed can be sacrificed for it's sake at early levels. Don't we study iaido to improve ourselves? How can we do this without attention to technique?

[Ly de Angeles]

In a real-life situation you're better off using a 4'b'2!
As for speed I figure grace is a better option. If you haven't got your feet working properly then speed is just going to get you hurt. It's a body-memory thing. Slow is actually preferable for years - you get the form that way. No form, no nothing.

(I introduced myself in another post. Nice to meet you all - finding site was a pleasant accident - was looking for hakama sales in Oz)

Ly

[whitewlf]

Hi,
For iaido, it is usually a highly rigid martial art, aim to discipline the body and mind, not really for combat. Though most of the essence of budo remains, but not the combat essential. Therefore, you will realise that most Sensei will insist on perfect posture, timing and position. If you have been engaging in tameshigiri, you will realise that cutting techniques is important to ensure a good cut without damaging your weapon.

regards,
Ong

[Neil Gendzwill]

It depends on what you mean when you say "technique". I'd say if you have to choose between getting there first and cutting exactly correctly, getting there first is more important. The sword will probably still cut even if your hasuji is a little off. But getting there first isn't always about speed. I fight young guys who are faster than me all the time, oddly enough I can get there first. Seme is more important than speed.

Of course, all things being equal more speed is better. When you go up against someone who has all the skills and the opponent management and moves like greased lightning, you're in tough.

[Karaken]

It depends on what you mean when you say "technique". I'd say if you have to choose between getting there first and cutting exactly correctly, getting there first is more important. The sword will probably still cut even if your hasuji is a little off. But getting there first isn't always about speed. I fight young guys who are faster than me all the time, oddly enough I can get there first. Seme is more important than speed.

Of course, all things being equal more speed is better. When you go up against someone who has all the skills and the opponent management and moves like greased lightning, you're in tough.

Neil, of course you realize this is Iaido Forum.. Right?

Do I still need to be centered? I guess so.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I was responding to this:

A kendoka might be able to give you a more valid idea on that, since they actually get "cut" if they're too slow.

Also, iaido or kendo the principle is the same - unless you make an opening or see an opening, you shouldn't attack. You need both opportunity and technique, plus some speed to exploit the opportunity. Most beginning kendoka just jump in, hoping to be faster than their opponent. They find it bewildering when they keep getting beaten by much older, slower opponents. But if your seme is strong, you don't need so much speed.

[Blue Samurai]

Well, guys, maybe we should talk about the development of technique.
In its beginning, Iaijutsu was the new form of traditional methods of sword fighting, which was aimed to solve the problems of selfdefence in new yet unthinkable positions - in sitting, kneeling, laying. Then came the philosophy of solving problems, which started before your reaction.
When the jutsu changed to the do, all techniques remained, but everything is covered little bit.
It means, that iaidoka will meet the same knowledge and abilities as kendoka, but he/she must go by slightly different way.
Iaido and kendo kata are VERY similar, kata is set from individual kihon techniques. When the kihon is similar, kata is similar.
Shinken shobu only means, that you bring your techniques into the fight.
Kendo shiai is only controlled form.
Somebody could oppose me, that the practise with use of shiai, where you have your bogu and shinai brinks you closer to the reality, but look on some competitors.
When they attack, they use only wrists. When you would use only wrist in the real combat, you will only piss your opponent off.
Don´t compare the kendo with iaido in this way.
Many kendokas starts to practise iaido as well in order to learn how to cut properly.
From all these reasons i don´t believe that iaidoka has any handicap against kendoka.
When your technique is bad, your kata is bad. When your cata is bad, the kvality of mental and technical aspects can not be good and you cannot win.
It doesn´t matter whether you are iaidoka or kendoka.

[kgh]

This is a response to only your last post, but before getting into it I just want to say "Hello". Happy to have stumbled across the boards today.



1.It means, that iaidoka will meet the same knowledge and abilities as kendoka, but he/she must go by slightly different way.

Iaido and kendo kata are VERY similar, kata is set from individual kihon techniques. When the kihon is similar, kata is similar.
In a way true, however most traditional iai ryuha included shiai in their curriculum, something most purely iai dojo do not do anymore...hence where Kendo comes in.


2.Somebody could oppose me, that the practise with use of shiai, where you have your bogu and shinai brinks you closer to the reality...



Reality is an odd concept here, because sword to sword confrontations are generally not a part of modern life. And wearing bogu does not particularly make it more "real" for most schools of iai, because they were developed for confrontations in which armor is generally not being worn. If your in full armor during a confrontation, would have most likely already been drawn...moving from iaido/iaijutsu and into kenjutsu....but I dont want to get into a squabble over terms. That happens on enough forums and mailing lists.




3.Many kendokas starts to practise iaido as well in order to learn how to cut properly.



Unfortunately, the majority of kendoka in Japan have never picked up an iaito/mogito...even less a shinken.


4. From all these reasons i don´t believe that iaidoka has any handicap against kendoka.



That depends in what situation your are placing them and the individuals. Put an iaidoka (who only studies iai) on the floor with a seasoned kendoka , put shinai in their hands, and I am afraid to say you will see a difference.... A regime of kata alone is unfortunately no substitution for confrontation, even if that experience is in the form of "controlled" sport competition.


5. When your technique is bad, your kata is bad.



Very True.



6.When your cata is bad, the kvality of mental and technical aspects can not be good and you cannot win.

Unfortunately not true. I know plenty of excellent fighters (in many arts) who could give a spit for kata. Again, return to the concept that many Kendo dojo do not do kata...even though almost all sensei and organizations "say" they are important and should be practiced. Do I approve, no. Part of the responsibility a student should take upon themselves when practicing a traditional art should be to help it survive into the future. That is best done through kata...hence their existence yet today.



Now, before I get jumped for sounding like I am slighting iaido, I want to make it clear that I am not. In fact, I ONLY study iaido at this time and as of yet have very little experience in kendo. (so what is he doing here, huh ;) )

Regards,
Kris