Kamae name meanings

[Neil Gendzwill]

We all know chudan, gedan, jodan, waki (middle, low, high, side). We also have seigan, hasso, kasumi and maybe some others. I know kasumi translates to "fog". I think hasso translates to "wood". Not sure about seigan. Can anyone confirm? Also, anyone know the reason for some of these names?

[bobdonny]

jodan - also called Ten-no-kamae, Heaven position,

chudan - also called Chi- no-kamae, Earth position

gedan - also called Hito-no-kamae, Man position

Hasso-no-kamae also called In-no-kamae

waki-kamae - also called Yo-no-kamae,

from noma reader. But as neil says no explanation is given.

[icy_flame]

I read something different in the Book of Five Rings

Chudan - Water Komae; Neutral posistion - very good balance of offense and defense. It is important to have a very strong Chudan-no-Kamae. You can go into all of the other stances from this stance.

Judan - Fire Kamae; Agressive, sword held high in the air. I read somewhere that it was also called the Heaven Kamae? Maybe.

Gedan - Earth Kamae; Lowered stance, good for hitting tsuki and pulling attention.

Hasso - Wood Kamae; I'm not sure about this one, I just know it relates to Jodan and it was used in earlier times when it was difficult to go into Jodan with low ceilings and large helmets.

Waki - Metal Kamae; Basically no use in competition kendo, but used in kata.

[Halcyon]

Water, wood, fire, earth and metal are the five fundamental elements that appear in Daoism. They underpin everything from traditional Chinese medicine to the tenets of the I-Ching. The following is the cycle among the five elements.

Water begets wood.
Wood begets fire.
Fire begets earth.
Earth begets metal.
Metal begets water, and so on.

There appears to have been some effort to apply Daoist principles to the five kamae. For example, "fire begets earth" could be interpreted as something like "gedan is effective against jodan" or vice versa. You can look at the cycle and the corresponding kamae, but whether hasso is effective against chudan or the reverse may be true ... well, that's certainly up for discussion.

Water begets wood --> chudan vs. hasso
Wood begets fire --> hasso vs. jodan
Fire begets earth --> jodan vs. gedan
Earth begets metal --> gedan vs. waki
metal begets water --> waki vs. chudan

[rottunpunk]

i learnt somewhere that hasso means flagpole
as it derives from the same position that a flag bearer stands in
:p

[Paburo]

neil, according to some page hasso is written like this: 【八相（はっそう）】 and it would lit. mean something like '8 form'. the name given to this kamae is related to eight because in this kamae the forearms are supposed to be standing in the shape and form of a japanese 8: 八

on the other hand, seigan 正眼 roughly translates as 'aiming to the eye'. so the name for this kamae is kinda obvious.

脇の構え waki no kamae: side position
八相の構え hasso no kamae: 8 shape/form position
上段の構え jodan no kamae: high leveled position
中段の構え chudan no kamae: middle leveled (horizontal) position.
下段の構え gedan no kamae: low leveled position.
正眼の構え seigan no kamae: aiming-to-the-eye position.
霞の構え kasumi no kamae: mist position.

not sure why the last kamae was given 霞. i guess it's because the targets and intentions are sort of unseen and unclear in this kamae...

btw, these are the literal meanings. not the conceptual fire, earth, etc etc.

[h2o]

neil, according to some page hasso is written like this: 【八相（はっそう）】 and it would lit. mean something like '8 form'. the name given to this kamae is related to eight because in this kamae the forearms are supposed to be standing in the shape and form of a japanese 8: 八
That's what I've heard as well.

[Kent Enfield]

We all know chudan, gedan, jodan, waki (middle, low, high, side). We also have seigan, hasso, kasumi and maybe some others. I know kasumi translates to "fog". I think hasso translates to "wood". Not sure about seigan. Can anyone confirm? Also, anyone know the reason for some of these names?
Chudan - middle level (it doesn't mean "horizontal").
Jodan - high level
Gedan - low level
Waki - side

Those four are pretty straight forward.

Kasumi - fog/mist. It's a (modified) Itto Ryu kamae. You'd have to ask someone there why it's called that.
Seigan - can be written several ways. The common one is "correct eyes". There's probably some esoteric reason, but the sword tip is at about the level of the eyes.
Hasso - means "eight phases". It's got nothing to do with the shape of the arms. It's a Buddhist term, refering to the eight phases of the Buddha's life. As for how it got turned into the name of a sword kamae, I don't know. You'd have to look at what school the name comes out of, and ask them.

[ben]

Seigan also is a Buddhist term. Apparently in this case "eye" implies not only seeing but also 'knowing'. So it could be translated to mean "to discern correctly", as in perceiving your opponent's heart/mind, rather than just their outward appearance (i.e. RBSO bogu, reptutation in shiai, use of fancy kamae, etc).

I'd be interested in some clarification on "hira seigan" and "taira seigan". They are variations on the angle of the blade in seigan I believe.

b

[Kent Enfield]

Seigan also is a Buddhist term.Doh. I actually knew that. Really.


I'd be interested in some clarification on "hira seigan" and "taira seigan". They are variations on the angle of the blade in seigan I believe.Without knowing the kanji involved, I can't be sure, but "hira" and "taira" are readings of the same kanji, meaning "flat" or "level".

[ZealUK]

Although it isn't the literal meaning of the names of the kamae, heaven, earth and man refers to a Chinese concept called 'sansai' (三才).

Sansai, or three powers, describe the relationship between heaven (天) earth (地) and man (人).

Heaven is high and infinite, earth is wide and expansive, so man by comparison seems to be unimportant. However due to the fact man was born out of heaven and earth, and is mindful and resourceful, he is in fact the equal to heaven and earth.

This is an attempt to describe natural law. I can't describe its meaning, so please look it up for yourself - dont' take the above explanation too seriously.

This seems to be a common theme in several traditional Japanese arts.

[ZealUK]

By the way, I found this ineresting page with plenty of unusual buddhist terms and descriptions.

http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/dicts/bdict/index.htm

[Kingofmyrrh]

I also suspect that hira/taira are the same thing. I've always heard it called hiraseigan when referring to kata 5.

Hasso most definitely started off as Buddhist terminology but I've never really heard an explanation as to how it came to describe that stance. Maybe they just stole the name because it sounded good and fitted in with the looks like the letter for 8/can deal with 8 enemies/can cut in 8 directions conventional explanations that you hear every so often.

Here's some other seigan for good measure:

正眼　青眼　晴眼　精眼　勢眼　西岸 (never seen the last two in actual text though - the last one seems particularly dodgy, although it might conceivably fit in with some kind of Buddhist scenario with the promised land being in the west etc etc - pretty sceptical however)

[yoda-waza]

Whoa, Neil, did you ever suspect this thread would grow so deep? Time to break out the shovels!

[Kenshi]

Kasumi - fog/mist. It's a (modified) Itto Ryu kamae. You'd have to ask someone there why it's called that.

Paburos "i guess it's because the targets and intentions are sort of unseen and unclear in this kamae" is closest to my understanding of this kamae. Ive emphasised a portion for a reason. There is not one single Kasumi kamae.

I prefer 漫才 over 三才 though.

Nice to see an interesting thread.

[Kent Enfield]

Paburos "i guess it's because the targets and intentions are sort of unseen and unclear in this kamae" is closest to my understanding of this kamae. Ive emphasised a portion for a reason.Thank you for the information.

There is not one single Kasumi kamae.I was aware that there are multiple kasumi kamae in Ono-ha Itto Ryu (they're in the Nihon no Kobudo video), but in kendo, I've only ever seen one, that looks more like Hokushin Itto Ryu's (jodan) kasumi. I don't remember if the Nihon no Kobudo video for Hokushin Itto Ryu shows more than the one kasumi kamae.

[Usagi San]

What I read about hasso says that, just like seigan it's linked to old bhoudism traditions, the 8 representing: first the eight stages of the life of buda, and at the same time that the 8 represents the eight possible directons of cutting. Vertical (up and down) horizontal, (left to right and viceversa) and both diagoinals (also up and down).

About waki I heard it once or twice described as "golden kamae", mostly because since the sword is hidden behind the body, that represents (according to my sensei) a (golden) advantage against the adversary who does not know it's characteristics: long, short... that sort of thing.

[Kent Enfield]

About waki I heard it once or twice described as "golden kamae", mostly because since the sword is hidden behind the body, that represents (according to my sensei) a (golden) advantage against the adversary who does not know it's characteristics: long, short... that sort of thing.Wakigamae get's associated with metal through elemental theory, like icy_flame listed above. I'm pretty sure the association predates the "hiding the sword" part of wakigamae. Older style wakigamae (look at prewar kendo films or books) doesn't have the sword behind the body. The origin of "hiding the sword" in wakigamae is something I'm curious about--when it comes into kendo, from where, and why.

[ben]

I was always told that the purpose of hiding the sword was to prevent your opponent ascertaining the correct maai regarding the length of your sword. This is why in yohonme both approach cautiously at first.

On reflection though, this would not be the main reason for taking up any kamae. The main reason would always have to be because there was a particular strategy attached to taking that kamae. In waki it is obviously an invitation or inducement to one's opponent to attack: showing deliberate suki.

b

[David]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is Kasumi? I know all of the other Kamae mentioned in this thread, but this one alludes me. I know I'm only a sankyu, but I've never heard of this one in any of the written material that I've read, and I've never heard it referenced in class.

[ben]

Like this (http://www.zanshin-dojo.it/Immagini/HR/Kumai/Piccole/images/3_jpg.jpg) only usually in kendo it is done at a jodan level, not gedan like in this image. So imagine holding the sword in this position, but with the kensen pointing at your opponent's face, your right arm horizontal.

b

[David]

I think I know the one you're talking about now, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of this done in the way ben is describing, would you?

Also, what advantages does this offer as opposed to other kamae?

[JSchmidt]

Also, what advantages does this offer as opposed to other kamae?

It pretty much blocks most targets, but the gyaku-do, but can be a little harder to attack from.

[Big One]

I don't know much about all of these name but I know it is common to have a "fancy" name for each kamae. Any one know the name for Sho men?

[MuMuLi]

Well if you look at the Kanji of the words, I can make a few very reasonable assumption at the meaning.

Jodan no Kamae- with the Kanji for Jodan which means "high", thus the "high posistion"

Chudan No Kamae- "Chu" is writtened as "middle", this is the lower stance.

HAsso No Kamae- there are many explinations for this one, but I think is because this stance can attack from eight directions. As written by Miyamoto Sensei, Hasso no kamae is the stance design to have acctess to all eight targets.

Wakigamae- No idea about this one. My old Kendo sensei said it is used to hide the length of the blade. That is ll the info I got

[a.hong]

Wakigamae- No idea about this one. My old Kendo sensei said it is used to hide the length of the blade. That is all the info I got

I believe waki means side, as in, holding the shinai (or whatever weapon you're using) at the side of the body.

[h2o]

Any one know the name for Sho men?
To my knowledge, that is not a kamae. It's the target area that is the middle of the head.

[kurisu]

I was always told that the purpose of hiding the sword was to prevent your opponent ascertaining the correct maai regarding the length of your sword.

b

That's what I've read too, which is the main reason it's no longer used in Kendo, we all fight with the same lengtht shinai. I've read somewhere too, that before the lenght was standardized, some people would have real long shinai.

I like the way it was used in The Seven Samurai:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=encFDMA6EjM

Around 1:50 mark.

[ben]

Just was watching some TSKSR kenjutsu kata (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3592341485993959661&q=otake&hl=en) and saw that one of them is called "kasumi". Lucky for me the kanji appears on screen and the narrator announces it. In this instance the term kasumi does not seem to relate to a kamae, but the kata as a whole. It is made up of two kanji, first the kanji "SHIN/kami" (god) and second the kanji "SHUU/atsu[meru], atsu[maru], tsudo[u]" (to gather, to collect). The pronunciation of "sumi" for this kanji is nowhere mentioned in my wonderful 47,000 kanji dictionary. Must be a koryu thing. Bloody obscurantists.

Just an example of how you can't be too careful with Japanese homonyms.

b

[Galo]

Just was watching some TSKSR kenjutsu kata (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3592341485993959661&q=otake&hl=en) and saw that one of them is called "kasumi". Lucky for me the kanji appears on screen and the narrator announces it. In this instance the term kasumi does not seem to relate to a kamae, but the kata as a whole. It is made up of two kanji, first the kanji "SHIN/kami" (god) and second the kanji "SHUU/atsu[meru], atsu[maru], tsudo[u]" (to gather, to collect). The pronunciation of "sumi" for this kanji is nowhere mentioned in my wonderful 47,000 kanji dictionary. Must be a koryu thing. Bloody obscurantists.

Just an example of how you can't be too careful with Japanese homonyms.

b

Very interesting video!

In fact, the kamae many know as "kasumi" is widely used in several momentos of the video. Both kenshi in the video take "kasumi" kamae at the same time in the middle of the "Kasumi" kata.

As to regarding the name, I have nothing new or better than what has already been said.

I had also heard that "waki" refers to holding the blade alongside the body, as Hi No Bushi said.

[splice]

As written by Miyamoto Sensei, Hasso no kamae is the stance design to have acctess to all eight targets.

Where did you get this idea exactly? The Cleary, Tokitsu, and Harris translations don't seem to refer to hasso. A search through the modern japanese version also finds no reference to "八相".

Victor Harris:


The five attitudes are: Upper, Middle, Lower, Right Side, and Left Side. These are the five. Although attitude has these five dimensions, the one purpose of all of them is to cut the enemy. There are none but these five attitudes.Thomas Cleary:


The five kinds of guard are the upper position, middle position, lower position, right-hand guard, and left-hand guard. Although the guard may be divided into five kinds, all of them are for the purpose of killing people. There are no other kinds of guards besides these five.Kenji Tokitsu:


The five guard positions are the high, middle, low, and those of the two sides, left and right. Five guards can be distinguished, but all of them have as their goal to slash the opponent. There is no guard position other than those five.Japanese version:


五方の構は上段中段下段、右の脇、左の脇に構ゆる事是れ五方なり
Now I know that we do a hasso gamae in HNIR, so the position does exist. However, I believe Musashi referred to it as Jodan. Certainly the text he wrote does not refer to hasso gamae that I can see, and the text for a waza that we do with hasso gamae refers to jodan in Musashi's text. So it seems doubtful that Musashi said "Hasso no kamae is the stance design to have acctess to all eight targets".

I would also be a bit doubtful about Hasso gamae being able to cut from 8 directions. Hidari gyaku kesa and Hidari dogiri seem to me to be a bit impractical from migi hasso gamae. But perhaps I'm just not good enough.

[John Seavitt]

Just was watching some TSKSR kenjutsu kata (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3592341485993959661&q=otake&hl=en) and saw that one of them is called "kasumi". Lucky for me the kanji appears on screen and the narrator announces it.

Although I cannot comment on the TSKSR curriculum, there are several koryu traditions that have kata "kasumi". The name does, in the two traditions I am aware of, refer to "clouds" or "mist", and as pointed out already does not describe any particular kamae, but rather (perhaps) a poetic description of the swordmans (or jo-mans) intention.

John