budokan abuse

[Confound]

Yesterday should have been a good day, I received my certificate for Ikkyu (even if my sensei told me to write my own name on it because he can't spell my name), and i had no classes to teach at school. However, I saw something incredibly disturbing in the budokan, and I'm wondering if it's at all normal. . .

During kakarikeiko, one of the teachers started literally throwing a student around the budokan. The student was quite clearly tired, I could hear his breathing (with a mem on) over 10 feet away. Yet the teacher insisted that the student continue. This I don't really have a problem with, it's how he insisted that the student continue training.

When the student turned around, after completing a strike, and tried to catch his breath, the teacher would come over and punch him on the grill of his mem, not a friendly bonk like you give your teammates, a nasty one that sent him reeling. Next he struck tsuki, very hard, and the student flew about 3 feet and slammed against the wall.

At this point, my student had his back to the wall. The teacher hit tsuki again, and the student pitched forward and started striking again. But as the student executed his strikes, the teacher kept striking him in the legs, really hard. it was possible to hear the shinai striking the boy's legs. (we're talking knees and calves here, not thighs.)

This process repeated itself about 10 times.

A few extra things to bear in mind:

the student had already been doing kakarikeiko for about 7 minutes before he got winded, and he was forced to continue for at least another 10 minutes

this teacher is a man in his 40s, a physical education teacher, and nana-dan (roughly) in kendou, and a burly man by even Western standards (he's Japanese).

the student is a grade nine boy, quite a gentle child actually, not the type to get angry in kendou, he isn't motivated by being hit. he's a smart, level headed kid. he has zansshin, but it isn't motivated by anger.

in Japan, it is not permitted for junior high students to use the tsuki striking point, and it is also not permissible to use it against them.


Is this kind of behaviour at all normal? I have never thought of myself as a sensitive or compassionate person, but I couldn't watch my student be pulverized by a kendou teacher.

My *other* kendou sensei (an old man) will occasionally whap a student on the mem when they get winded or their zansshin is low, but he has never beaten a student. Ever. He's an excellent teacher, but this 'younger' sensei is horrible. What makes it worse is that he's the physical education teacher at my school, and I have to work with him everyday.

c

[Hyaku]

Well.......it depends on the teacher. There are those that push a student to extremes doing that sort of thing. It's given and its taken and accepted. I can assure you that its a lot lighter nowadays than it used to be.

On the other hand some them are just plain bullies that are showing off. Sadly I have even come across people that have done this for my benefit. Not just in armour but "hard" slaps across the face after shiai practice.

Yours is a phys ed teacher. But lot of these people don't even have teaching qualifications although they teach Kendo to kids.

Generally they only tell a people a few times to get something right or correct a fault.
after then its oooooo that must have hurt!

I think its safe to say that most teachers tend to mellow with old age. My 40 year old Nandan has mellowed a lot and the results of the Kendobu seem none the worse for that bashing around. I was only a few years ago that the whole of the Ichinensei were on the floor within an hour of practice. Looked more like hospital casualty than a Dojo.

Saying this Confound you are perhaps identifying with a lots of people that never even start Kendo as they consider it barbaric.

Lets face it there are other methods to get the best. I step to the side, put my hand in the small of the back and push em through. Now and again I catch them across the backside with the shinai. More humiliating than painful. Or i start to run backwards if they dont take up on the cut fast enough.They soon get the hint and speed up. Motodachi gives cuts but should clearly move out of the way so as not to hinder a follow through.

I have had guys enter my senior dojo with a definate peacock sydrome. Some nasty deliberate tsukis into the side of the with out so much as an apology. The senior Sensei has never disciplined anyone and I have had to deal with them. A couple of tsuki- tai ataris and they take off like space shuttles. One guy went through the door (still closed). It acted as a good stretcher as he landed on it. But he "still" picks on others.

Hope this helps

Hyaku

Confound, email me sometime. I have been that too embarassing to mention work for 20 years now. sword@po.bunbun.ne.jp

[Confound]

Originally posted by Hyaku

On the other hand some them are just plain bullies that are showing off....

Yours is a phys ed teacher. But lot of these people don't even have teaching qualifications although they teach Kendo to kids.

I think its safe to say that most teachers tend to mellow with old age.

Saying this Confound you are perhaps identifying with a lots of people that never even start Kendo as they consider it barbaric....

I step to the side, put my hand in the small of the back and push em through. Now and again I catch them across the backside with the shinai. More humiliating than painful.


The bullying individual i'm talking about is actually a very high ranking kendouka (and he has teaching qualifications, he's got that neat little star on his dou), and a graduate of an apparently prestigious university. He comes highly recommended. His sons (twins) are the terror of the entire prefecture. Whenever they go to a tournament, the final match is always the same, "Tsuchida vs Tsuchida", and the match is wirth watching too. for junior high school kids, they're pretty darned good.

I don't consider kendou barbaric, but I do think this one teacher has behaved very poorly. In kendou we are supposed to have a generous attitude towards out opponents and show them respect, even towards our juniors. In some ways, especially towards juniors, because they need instruction, they can't get any better if you don't show them the right way to behave, and the right way to strike.

There are already enough problems in my dojo with poor behaviour towards juniors. I was hoping that when our new kendou teacher arrived, he would be firm, and lay down the law. Instead, he models behaviour that seems to promote the bullying.

after that last practice, I do not consider him my teacher anymore. it is important to have respect for your sensei, they should be someone whose approach to kendou is one that you wish to emulate. I do not want to become a senoir who is known for excellent technique and leaving nasty welts on my juniors.

You're definately right about teachers mellowing with age. i'm quite certain from what i've seen with the 4 teachers i've met, that you're right. It's a limited sample, but a wide age range.

</rant>

c

[David J]

This is horrendous. I for one have never seen the value in bullying as a "teaching" technique, and I think it is one of the things that puts many people off martial arts altogether. Its not a kendo thing by any means - a friend with a back problem was doing karate. The sensei insisted on some extreme stretches, which she wasnt able to do, as she explained. His solution was to sit on her back!!! Luckily (for both of them), he didnt do her permanent damage, but it could have done quite easily.

I guess this kind of behaviour stops when a so-called sensei gets sued heavily, or retaliated against outside of the dojo. Failing that, students with any sense will move to another dojo. And as for PE teachers - sadly then you dont get the choice (been there, got the mental scars....)

I dont think sensei should be soft, cuddly, considerate souls all the time, but I do think they should, as Confound says, be inspiring the best in people, both in and outside the dojo. As Hyaku says -
---
I step to the side, put my hand in the small of the back and push em through. Now and again I catch them across the backside with the shinai. More humiliating than painful. Or i start to run backwards if they dont take up on the cut fast enough.They soon get the hint and speed up.
---
....in other words, you can push people on, make them work to the limit, discover what their limits are and how they cope with them, without brutalising them in the process.

The dojo, to a huge degree, _is_ the sensei, and I for one feel truly honoured to be studying with mine. It is very sad to think of others suffering and not knowing any different.

<rei>

Dave

[Confound]

I am lucky in that my dojo has two senseis. The horrendous PE teacher (who i have to work with everyday, and who only JUST showed his nastiness the other day), and a very nice old man who comes in to do a night class twice a week. Also, quite fortunately, the PE teacher is rarely around, whereas the older sensei is there twice a week, to teach 'extra kendou' a class beyond te regular club activities.

he's hardly 'cute and cuddly sensei', he whips students around, but he never hurts anyone, or does anything degrading. when he shouts at you, he isn't calling you nasty names, he's telling you what you missed. i'm lucky to have one teacher i can admire. he really is a good fellow.

however, as i said previously, we all pay for it the rest of the week with 'evil sensei'.

c

[Fighter]

What is a good student and what is a good sensei in Kendo?. I dont really agree to abusive training because it inspires feelings of hatred and vengeance and the student will often repeat such behaviour once he becomes a sensei

[KhawMengLee]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a rugby buddy of mine. He is japanese and was telling me of the ragging in the clubs in Japan. Juniors are expected to do whatever the seniors tell them to do...

He refers to a story how they stuck a hot dog in between a juniors buttocks(yeeessss...:() and he had to endure this torture in the nude.

When I looked at him incrediously he said, "what?! I got tortured as well! But it was OK because when I became a senior I could do the same to the juniors..."

I rest my case...violence breeds violence.

The amount of nightmare stories I hear....jeez

Still, at the same time...if it doesn't kill ya...it makes ya stronger. The dabate on this could go on for years...I mean on the other hand, look at how in the west we coddle to less intelligent(stupid) kid in class. We slow down the level so he/she wont feel stupid. At the same time the rest of the student's intelligence levels drop to the level of the stupid kid.


I think there needs to be a balance...a bit of stress will make you stronger...and to little will make you soft...

this is sooo much like buddhism.

Meng

[David J]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

...if it doesn't kill ya...it makes ya stronger.



...or into a serial killer :eek:

[Confound]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
The dabate on this could go on for years...I mean on the other hand, look at how in the west we coddle to less intelligent(stupid) kid in class. We slow down the level so he/she wont feel stupid. At the same time the rest of the student's intelligence levels drop to the level of the stupid kid.

Meng

There's a difference between dumbing down a class and beating up a student. one is boring the other is inhumane. i agree with you though about dumbing down classes, it was really irritating to have to listen to things being repeated over, and over and over.... especially in a fourth year university honours class....

c

[Alex]

Just a short comment. That's the kind of training I expected everyday as a high student in Japan. I went through it everytime I lined up to fight the sensei, as did my peers, and students in the neighbouring schools. It was terrifying, but I survived, as did everybody else. My physical condition and age would never allow me to do the same thing now, but to be honest, I'm glad I did it then. That's be cause I was able to do it then. My mind and body was resilient enough to deal withthe stress. I actually appreciate my teacher for taking me past my perceived limits, both physical and mental. It gave me a strong base to work with in my later kendo years.

The thing is it doesn't only happen in kendo, but most of the school sports clubs that I saw...Of course, I don't condone bullying, but regardless of how tough or violent a teacher may seem, it dosn't necessarily mean that it is bullying. In some cases it may be, but in other cases it isn't.

[richard haly]

Confound,

An anthropological side of me wants to find a way to ask your sensei what he was doing and why, wants to ask what he expected the student was learning, when the sensei would do this and when not? And so on.

I don't think this is precisely a case of "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" as it is well known that this kind of violence qua abuse breeds more in future generations. That little thing called "culture," i.e. "the last thing the fish sees is the water."

Is there anyway of approaching this sensei as a student wanting knowledge?

Right now we are all discussing a phenomena without the intentionality which may or may not be what we assume. No matter what, it will be interesting.

Regards,

Richard

[Kendoka]

Confound is the sensei that you mentioned member of this forum ??!!

Richard

[ben]

This is FASCINATING!

Personally I don't hold to Confound's Evil Sensei's teaching methods, but there is an interesting debate here that crosses a few cultural borders (KW motto ahoy!).

First of all there is the other side to the kendo as sport debate. If kendo is a martial art, then its existence is based on killing. What are the remnants of that in modern kendo? I would say this particular teacher's methods are one remnant. I don't believe we need to embrace this part of kendo's history (that's why, after all, we're doing kendo and not kenjutsu, or serving in the army for that matter), but we must be fully cognisant of it.

The other interesting question is does this approach indeed "breed violence"? As kendoka we're constantly using violence in a controlled fashion. It is violence but without aggression. There can be subtler forms of power wielded brutally by senior members of a dojo, what one could call "Oedipal" or cross-generational violence. That is the violence of the older generation refusing to cede power to the younger. I think this is perhaps the really shocking thing that Confound witnessed, over and above the physical attack.

But I think one of the wonderful things about kendo generally is that it is mercifully free of such violence. Most senior kendoka are humbled by their kendo experience and this is a protective mechanism against such aggression. I've trained with many kendoka, and many of those have been through this kind of training, but I have never once trained with anyone I would describe as sadistic. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe I'm forgetful.

I think the teachers you have to be wary of are those who avoid ever pitting themselves against kendoka of similar or greater ability - those who only fight kendoka weaker and less experienced than themselves. I think there is case for labelling such sensei as dangerous.

b

[Hyaku]

As Doctor A says we all go through here in Japan if we practice on a regular basis. If you come here you can expect some hard treatment.

Now I put my students throught it. But on a rather less violent basis. I am trying to get the best out of them that even they are not aware of unless we take things to extremes.

Now and again even as an adult I sometimes go to my old dojo and know even before I walk in the door whats going to happen. So I just bow in, bogu on and get up the top end for my medicine. But what I do know for sure is its only when I don't give my best that things get hairy.

What worries me are those that think they are teaching and do this for the wrong reasons. One would assume that Confound's Nandan should know better. However seeing a few more similar dorks of the same grade I can't say this doesnt happen. What stands out to me most of all is the fact that its a junior high schooler. If its high school you can expect things to liven up.
We teach them Kihon at Junior high then work on it at senior.

I have sustained a few unnecessary injuries and had to deal with situations before they got worse. One guy would go for kote so hard he would hit the floor if he missed. My arms were black and bruised. I did try to tell him but it didn't work. He would actually get so far inside the maai and catch you with kensaki on the elbow.

One week before a grading the last thing I wanted was an injury. So I had to deal with him. Its fine for these guys until that get it back. I wont forget one guy who was well known for nasty stuff who tried it out on a high ranking Japanese. I was waiting next in line at the time. I saw the Sensei's eyes widen with anger. Me and a few more noticed and said "Oh shit" Couple of seconds later he took his eardrum out!

I hope this thread is not putting people off who wish to try to challenge this rank as a more esteemed level in the future. Not all of us are like this! The peacock syndrome is a kendo illness we come across form time to time.

I dont understand a view of it breeding violence. Personaly I could look after myself quite well before I did MA. To me its a good method of working off all that excess energy.

P.s.
Quote- My physical condition and age would never allow me to do the same thing now.

Hey there Dr A your not that old yet are you? I remember your High School Kendo at Katsuura

Hyaku

[Confound]

Let's start with the easy part:

Richard:
No, my 'evil' sensei is not on this forum, he only speaks Japanese. His longest utterance in English was "speedou uppu shitte!" Which wasn't really English, as you may have guessed. He's Japanese, and he never bothers to even use English in his Japanese speech. (if you live here you know what i mean, those words that pop up, like "backu-appu" and "speedou" and "taimingu", and the ever-hilarious "Haito!" (which is supposed to be 'fight!')

Ben:
My sensei isn't dangerous. i've seen him teach on other occasions, i've seen him even do keiko with this student and many others before, and this was the first time he exhibited such behaviour. However, your point about ceding power seems very political. I would put it in slightly different terms, some sempai like to emphasize the fact that they ARE the sempai, and that the junior IS the kohei, they do this by humiliating the kohei occasionally, or simply whipping their bottoms in keiko so severly that the poor kohei can't do anything buy huff and puff, hoping it will all be over soon.

Yes, this behaviour generally perpetuates itself. the kohei walks away thinking, "Damn, I hated that. I'm mad." Then when he is a sempai, he takes out the frustration of having been whaled on upon a new kohei. I see it all the time in other school clubs, and even in school in general here. No one is a grave seven student or a grade 11 student, they're first or second or third year student(obviously going up to 6 in elementary school and 8 in university), firmly entrenching the hierarchy. When a student goes on to the next level of education, they lose everything and end up bakc in ichi nen sei (first year) again. (this also perpetuates a cycle of irresponsibility, but we're talking about kendou here, not general japanese social habits and norms.)

hyaku:

i odn't mean breeding violence so much as disrespect toward kohei. part of having a good dojo is showing rei, to your sensei, to your sempais, your koheis and people on your own level. if you wander around acting like a peacock, all you do is upset the 'wah' so to speak. (did I just say that? Someone hit me.)

I was disturbed that this nandan sensei (a junior high TEACHER) picked on such a young student. I've been beaten around before, sent rolling on the floor actually, how disgraceful.

On a related note:

I actually approached the sensei today, and had a talk with him at the photocopier, what a great place for soul searching talks about kendou. as usual, he talked in his raspy voice in strange Japanese (i've NEVER met a man with weirder japanese, even on a good day I can only get about 50% of what he's saying, luckily today was a good day,and he was trying to talk simply).

He explained that he is only gentle with students he doesn't respect. (That did wonders for my self esteem right there... gee, thanks! Glad to know you hate me, sensei.) he said that using a tougher approach shows that you care about the student and want to force them to work harder, he actually used the word 'ai', which was a little shocking, it means love, but it can have a wide range of meanings.

Earlier in the day, i'd talked to my student in English class. he was alright, no major bruises. He wasn't too upset about the whole ordeal, despite being slammed against a wall and being whapped with tsuki shots every few minutes. I was particularly amazed that there wasn't a single bruise on his throat. (i've seen some doozies from tsukis before, but not a mark on his skin could be found.)

I've learned a valuable lesson from this, no it isn't some ennobling cross cultural vision, it's that a clever sensei can make things look far worse than they are, to scare other students into behaving better when it's their turn, while still giving the his student partner a thorough working over. it's still something i'm thinking about quite hard, because it really was a bit severe at times.

however, from watching the damage my students do to eachother in class (the Japanese are NOT gentle people, watch them pick up cats and dogs, all the pets i've met in this country are traumatized), it may just be normal for them. i've seen my students leave huge bruises on eachother just for fun, or watched them play paper rock scissors and then beat up the loser, all to pass the time. (seriously, punching the loser right in the stomach or the jaw, this is a very strange country indeed.)

maybe this is all because i live in the cultural backwater, the hick country, or japan. who knows, i've only lived in this little sludgy haven in the north, not anywhere else, so I only know what i've seen here.

c

[alexpollijr]

Maybe it's part of the tradition.

I have a japanese sensei, quite in his fifties and he learned kendo in the police dojo of the Saitama prefecture, if I am not mistaken, since he's from Kyoto.

He always picks on the students he likes. When I was beginning, he would stand in front of me to check if each suburi was perfectly done. When I've put bogu, he would push me around for speed, whack me in the back, shout, and all else which I'd expect him to do. When he didn't do that, I thought that Iwas doing something wrong because he wasn't caring for me. Later on he would tsuki me to show me my lack of concentration, push me around with taiatari blows and so and so and so.

I see no reason for ego bruises, nor hatred, nor anything. Noone is forcing you to go to the dojo for keiko. But if you go, you do it aware of what may happen to you. I don condone "bullying", but since I didn't see the scene I'll take your judgment for it Confound. Bullying is bad. Stout discipline is good. So-so.

Alex Polli

[mingshi]

Hey~~ That's more like it!

Treat the whole thing as a serious training... Maybe Kendo is far more relaxing already for those who've been in military service. Why would you pick up Kendo in the first place when you can play tennis with your friends? Training in Kendo requires much more mental strength (in my opinion) then physical strength. In the dojo you know who's been teaching and how they teach the others. If you don't like it you can always leave right?

I suppose there were threads a few mounths ago illustrating the toughest Kendo training from the Riot Police Squad. Really depends on whether you can take it as discipline/love or bullying. You can always see fathers beating up sons. PE teachers being aggressive is really typical. Mmmm, a fellow kendoka who was also teaching English in Japan before once told this incident: It's a interschool taikai date and a team lost. Their sensei **slap slap** on both sides of the students face and knock them down the floor, not to mention he's probably shouting real loud at the time. Hey that's the end of the game and in front of everybody~~ Why?

Take it or leave it. Abusive dads cause sons to run away from home. But some do take it as respect & love. Just remind me of that Richard's dad in American Beauty, "Discipline!!!!"... Mmm...

Modern day Martial Arts. Now that you don't have to climb up a mountain to find a master for apprenticeship... Being pushed around is ...nothing. Some of you might have heard of the "Tough teachings" from my dojo (what a reputation!). But I feel like I'm learning through that, at least being more aware of posture etc. I don't take it personal. And I'm able to talk to sensei afterwards and explain things.

Enjoy your practice!

[Hyaku]

Hey~~ That's more like it!

It's a interschool taikai date and a team lost. Their sensei **slap slap** on both sides of the students face and knock them down the floor, not to mention he's probably shouting real loud at the time. Hey that's the end of the game and in front of everybody~~ Why?
........
I must admit I use this "In front of people thing". Perhaps the biggest thing over here is not standing out too much and fitting in. It really goes to extremes.

The downside is the not so strong students. The last time I looked at records near 28.000 were unable to join classes for various reasons. Also sometimes if you excell in something you get bullied.

The upside is if you deal with a bully in front of the class he loses. He wants to draw attention to himself but not "that" kind of attention.

To add a further point I have also seen Kendo teachers that perhaps seem to have had a disagreement at home. They come into the dojo like a bear with
a sore butt and take it out on someone.

I have to agree with Alex that I pick on them cos I like them. I know that the weaker kendoka will get picked on by the seniors so sometimes I give them a bit more attention to try and build them up.

Hyaku

[ben]

'I must admit I use this "In front of people thing". Perhaps the biggest thing over here is not standing out too much and fitting in. It really goes to extremes.' (Hyaku)

The difference here between Japanese and Western culture couldn't be greater could it.

In the West: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
In Japan: "The nail that sticks out will be hammered back into place."

I know it's not a new observation but I still find it interesting. The effects (or clash) of this difference pop up subtly all the time in Western dojos.

[inner_cent]

How do you judge something is right ? and what is wrong ?

Western culture always promote "civilised" way of training, but does it really work ?
Japanese culture uses..."bully" tactic (well, most people believe it is)... and is it really "Bully"

I think we all know, real "Bully" is not the way to go. But Do you believe the thing you see is really "Bully".
I know this new 7th-dan sensei just came to Singapore, young to be 7th dan, only 42 yrs old), and he have given people this impression of "unapproachable" and sometime down right bully (that is in Dojo, but he is absolutely nice person outside the dojo). For the "civilised" kendoka in singapore, its a toal different approach.
This sensei has introduced the "bully" tactic way of training, and alot of people having a hell of time (pushed till you sliding on the floor. Pinned you to the wall, and deliberate trip you over). But does people hate him ? no. Because he actually point out what he has been trying to tell people. Something are not an easy thing to explain. Especially in kendo. What is the better way to learn, other than "Physically" experience it?
Another point you might think on it. Do you treat Kendo as a "Sport" or "martial Art" ? If training are set according to the rule, it will only be useful in training. Anything outside, it will be totally useless.
eg. What if you do if you met another competitor in a shiai, who happen to play rough? Give up and complain foul ?! If a realy life and death duel of death, do you really care if you push someone over ?

[Confound]

Originally posted by inner_cent


What if you do if you met another competitor in a shiai, who happen to play rough? Give up and complain foul ?! If a realy life and death duel of death, do you really care if you push someone over ?

My main problem was the tsuki. It is literally against the rules to use that striking point against a junior high school aged kendouka. i was also concerned that he didn't just strike once, it was multiple times.

note previously in the thread that i've talke dto the teacher since then and straightened it out, but at the time it looked incredibly painful, and i had never seen it before.

c

[Kuri]

I remember reading somewhere quite a while back (probably about another art) that genrally, when foreigners first arrive and start training in Japan, the sensei heap on the compliments. What a warm fuzzuy feeling that is. As time moves on, and a committment is established, the sensei take more interest in the students development and the compliments are replaced by criticism (constructive or otherwise). That also comes along with a thorough workout to point out all of the shortcomings that need to be addressed. By the time you're a senior (everything's relative), these actions become minimal as they've mostly been addressed and you can push yourself to the limit without the help of your sensei.

Each person has their own ideas of how to train effectively. How do you pass on your knowledge? Most likely drawing on our own experience. The Japanese teachers would most likely be drawing on that experience. Is it bullying, violence, assualt, child abuse...???? Unless yoyu're on the receiving end and can see the intention of the sensei, it can be difficult to draw an accurate conclusion.

I must admit that with my western way of thinking, I will never truelly understand the Japanese logic (is that and oxymoron?), but who am I to judge.....

[Confound]

Originally posted by Kuri
when foreigners first arrive and start training in Japan, the sensei heap on the compliments. What a warm fuzzuy feeling that is. As time moves on, and a committment is established, the sensei take more interest in the students development and the compliments are replaced by criticism (constructive or otherwise).



My sensei has never complimented me, ever. None of them have, except my first sensei, and his compliments were not in the budokan thanks, they were on my skilful handling of his rambunctious class. absolutely unrelated to kendou.

There seems to be some misconception here that I was bullied by my sensei. I don't care what my sensei does to me (he has never been overly rough with me), but I was concerned because the student looked like he was ready to start bleeding. it looked incredibly bad. it turns out that it was kind of bad, but not as painful as I thought.

c

[cklin]

It seems to me that the answer to Confound's original question is quite clear.

It is not abuse -- it is simply "spirit training," something that is either very diluted or sorely lacking in most kendo outside of Japan/Korea (well, I generalize, at least in the US).

Unlike us beginners, nanadan sensei have the ability to judge how far they can push someone without really hurting them. So it's a bit unfair to label this sensei as "Evil Sensei." Sure the kid was probably not having a good time during the kakarigeiko, but since when is kakarigeiko supposed to be a prissy prance in the park? And as Confound said, it did not turn out as bad for the kid as he had thought. In some ways, the sensei probably helped the kid a lot, particularly when the kid moves on to high school and plays kendo at that level.

As for tsuki not being allowed at the junior high level, I think Confound has misinterpreted that rule. Certainly, students are not allowed to perform tsuki on each other, but I doubt this rule applies to the sensei when he is playing his student.

There are many different styles of teaching and I'm sure some would agree that learning only from the "nice old man" sensei means you've missed out on a lot. "Nice old sensei" whacking you on the back of your head as you zanshin from a men does not spirit-training make. And, in my opinion, spirit-training is a categorical imperative to becoming a strong kendo player.

Two things you can do if you're so disturbed by Confound's story: (1) Go read _Musashi no Ken_. Granted it's a stupid manga by someone who only learned kendo for 5 months, but it addresses this supposed abuse issue quite thoroughly -- it's a good story of a strong kendo mindset.
(2) Go to a Japanese college kendo gashuku. Stay for the whole time, go to every practice.

[Hyaku]

Hello clk

Did you read all the posts? There are some out there I can assure you. I think most of those that have been on the wrong end wont post here as they perhaps gave up!

Hyaku

[cklin]

Hyaku: I don't understand your post. "There are some out there..."? What's out there?

And as to reading the other posts, yes I did and like I had said, my response was to Confound's original question.

[Confound]

Your post made me laugh. Very hard.

I've already admitted I was a little hasty, but it was a little over the top what this sensei did to the student. I still think he was a bit harsh.

'Spirit training'? if you're going to get all 'cultural' on us, maybe you should come and live here. trust me, it's a real trip.

c

[Hyaku]

Hyaku: I don't understand your post. "There are some out there..."? What's out there?

Kendoka that wish too hospitalize you.

Hyaku

[Achilles]

Confound, sorry if you already covered this and I missed it (have only been skimming here), but is it possible that this "abused" student is weak/wimpy?

I see plenty of students in my dojo/dojang, and a lot of them whine about "abuse", when in reality they simply don't have the commitment, physical conditioning to put in the necessary work.

[cklin]

Confound wrote:
>
> Your post made me laugh. Very hard.
>

I'm always glad to provide comic relief to others! Perhaps I was also a bit too quick to judge, and so I assure you there is no need to get ruffled.

>'Spirit training'? if you're going to get all 'cultural' on us, maybe
>you should come and live here. trust me, it's a real trip.

Hrm... so there is an implicit assumption here on your part that I haven't lived in Japan... Actually, I spent quite a bit of time in Japan where I had the very good fortune of learning under Fukumoto sensei, Toda-sensei, Kato-sensei (shihan of Imperial Police, ret.) and Sato-sensei (Head of Tokyo Metropolitan Police, ret.), both at universities and with (obviously) the police.

As to getting 'cultural', sure, I can get all sorts of 'cultural'. But I won't because I'm no expert and my rants would be pretty worthless -- but I will ask this question: how can one NOT get cultural if studying kendo is also a study of culture (Japanese and human)?

I am somewhat surprised to learn that a kenshi is not familiar with my use of the term 'spirit training'. It seems to me that, in kendo, it is a rather established and fundamental idea (if not the term itself)... Let not our enthusiasm for reigi make us lose sight of kendo's martial roots, for otherwise we'd all be doing sado (sincerely no offense intended to the sado practitioner-reader)...

Hyaku wrote:
>
>Kendoka that wish too hospitalize you.
>

Oh ok. Now I understand what you mean.

One has to learn to deal with those people too, no? Just like in the real world, not everyone's nice.

[iwatekenshi]

Hi where do you live in Miyagi? I'm just north of you in Iwate and about 30 minutes from Furukawa.
Never seen that kind of abuse around here and yeah it's a bit too much.

Hope to hear from you,

Jonathan

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Confound
Let's start with the easy part:

[snippage]

I was disturbed that this nandan sensei (a junior high TEACHER) picked on such a young student. I've been beaten around before, sent rolling on the floor actually, how disgraceful.



Confound, the depth of your ignorance is truly staggering. I'm not sure what advice I can offer you save that you need to stop looking at this from the
'it's different from what I know and therefore wrong'
perspective. You are going to go mental if you can't accept that there are reasons other than the ones you immediately grasp for, to explain the events that you see around you.
The student who copped a beating wasn't too upset because he understands why it happened. You on the other hand have wasted several days it seems being indignant on his behalf.
Suck it up, shut your mouth for a while and think really hard about something before you try and impose your own beliefs and values on it. I'm ragging on you a bit I know, but I'm sure the ppl who have spent some time in Japan will agree with me - you're going about things the hard way. Could well be why you're having so many subsidiary dramas.




[more snippage]
He explained that he is only gentle with students he doesn't respect. (That did wonders for my self esteem right there... gee, thanks! Glad to know you hate me, sensei.)



He probably doesn't hate you. He's probably completely indifferent toward you. He probably sees you as someone who tries something until it gets difficult and then finds excuses about why things are too hard. It's not his job to hand out respect freely, it's your job to earn it. If you can.




[yet more snippage]
I've learned a valuable lesson from this, no it isn't some ennobling cross cultural vision, it's that a clever sensei can make things look far worse than they are, to scare other students into behaving better when it's their turn, while still giving the his student partner a thorough working over. it's still something i'm thinking about quite hard, because it really was a bit severe at times.


Then you haven't really learned much at all, sorry to say.




however, from watching the damage my students do to eachother in class (the Japanese are NOT gentle people, watch them pick up cats and dogs, all the pets i've met in this country are traumatized), it may just be normal for them. i've seen my students leave huge bruises on eachother just for fun, or watched them play paper rock scissors and then beat up the loser, all to pass the time. (seriously, punching the loser right in the stomach or the jaw, this is a very strange country indeed.)

maybe this is all because i live in the cultural backwater, the hick country, or japan. who knows, i've only lived in this little sludgy haven in the north, not anywhere else, so I only know what i've seen here.

c

Do you always bitch and moan this much?
Seriously if you're not having a good time, perhaps you should accept that this isn't the place for you and leave. As far as moving to yet another area - well, you can't redecorate your kitchen by painting the outside of your house. Maybe you should look a little closer to home for the source of your problems.
It has been said that ignorance is bliss - congratulations on thoroughly disproving that hypothesis.

[Confound]

<troll feed>
You obviously have reading comprehension problems, or you have a large bee in your bonnet.

Take that angst and put it in a safety deposit box, you'll garner more interest on it there than you will here.

incidentally, i was a sociology major, so i've got that whole 'multicultural viewpoint' thing downpat. I didn't say it was completely wrong, I just said I didn't think i was the right approach for that student. Try to read to the end and think about the original post before replying. Reading the whole thread helps too.

</troll feed>

Now that i've fed you, crawl back into a hole.

c

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Confound
<troll feed>
You obviously have reading comprehension problems, or you have a large bee in your bonnet.


Oh yes, both of the above. Love to troll for lusers in my spare time too.



Take that angst and put it in a safety deposit box, you'll garner more interest on it there than you will here.

incidentally, i was a sociology major, so i've got that whole 'multicultural viewpoint' thing downpat.


bwah ha ha ha ha ha - good one.



I didn't say it was completely wrong, I just said I didn't think i was the right approach for that student. Try to read to the end and think about the original post before replying. Reading the whole thread helps too.
[snippage]


Uh, no I don't believe you did. You prattled on about what you assume was this particular students learning patterns and bitched about how horrible this particular sensei is.
As for me - yes I was trolling just a little, but if I thought you would be so easy to bait I wouldn't have bothered. Ignorant, dull and thin-skinned - damn you have some issues. And I stand by my original comment - your ignorance is staggering.
Okay - bored now. going to crawl back to my troll-hole. Rant away. No - really - knock yourself out.

[Confound]

i have no interest in feeding you.