Seme -- Your thoughts and suggestions

[Thunder]

So last practice, I really tried to focus on Seme from the Seiza forward--
I have to say I was surprised that it worked much better than my previous attempts.

I found my opponents were reacting decisively to the seme, even though I held the strike back to see their reaction, I was able to interpret their reactions and plan ahead...although I was being hit a lot, I was able to shift my opponent exactly where I wanted them a few times--

So-- Here is my question.

What do you think your "strongest" seme is-- technically speaking. What is your opponent's reaction to your seme. I noticed quite a variety of reactions from my opponents (which would naturally vary with the person) but I would be interested to hear your experiences.

[Genya]

I think my seme really sucks. Should be working on it more.. What I´ve been trying recently is that while going forward I raise my shinais tip little higher and act like I´m going to strike men. If my opponent moves his hands little higher I strike kote. Or do if possible. From my experience this works for people who are very defensive.

[Charlie]

I think I know what you mean, Thunder. You're asking in what waza do we use seme effectively?

I'm pretty good at opening kote by pressuring tsuki and up toward men, then down to kote, that's probably my strongest. I've gotten decent at opening doh the same way.

[Kuma]

What's the name of that waza, Charlie? The tsuki pressure to kote one?

[mark]

So last practice, I really tried to focus on Seme from the Seiza forward--
I have to say I was surprised that it worked much better than my previous attempts.

I found my opponents were reacting decisively to the seme, even though I held the strike back to see their reaction, I was able to interpret their reactions and plan ahead...although I was being hit a lot, I was able to shift my opponent exactly where I wanted them a few times--

So-- Here is my question.

What do you think your "strongest" seme is-- technically speaking. What is your opponent's reaction to your seme. I noticed quite a variety of reactions from my opponents (which would naturally vary with the person) but I would be interested to hear your experiences.


Your profile says that you are not yet ranked. If that is the case it is likely that you should be concentrating on something other than seme. Kamai -attack, searching for center and attacking, learning to attack as soon as there is an opening... and the like. Talk to you sensei.

That said, I am just begining to work on seme. I have found that if I "hold" center and quickly release, my partner reacts/strikes creating an oppening. It only makes sense if I have to be able to hold center and my partner believes that I will and can score from that distance. I am currently working on this first part (pre-seme?) more than the second.

In a recent post, I found someone from the US mid-west mention that they try to score a men from distance at the begining of a match to help their opponent understand that they can score from there... food for thought.

BTW, if I am training with someone 3 levels + mine, I don't bother wasting their time and revert to focussing on a good kamae, trying to find something that resembles an opening, and going for a strong men.

[rottunpunk]

So last practice, I really tried to focus on Seme from the Seiza forward--
.

do you mean you were looking at seme during mae in iai?
or you were working on forward pressure during keiko
excuse my blondeness
:p

[Charlie]

What's the name of that waza, Charlie? The tsuki pressure to kote one?

Just kote, really! But there's a way of doing it I'll have to show you. Abbey-sensei has demonstrated it before but I'll go over it a bit more with you. You know how all waza are supposed to begin with pressure to tsuki? It's kind of like that, although there's a bit of a fake-out. I'll have to show you, it's hard to describe online.

[MAZ77]

So-- Here is my question.

What do you think your "strongest" seme is-- technically speaking. What is your opponent's reaction to your seme. I noticed quite a variety of reactions from my opponents (which would naturally vary with the person) but I would be interested to hear your experiences.

My strongest Seme is when my opponent does not react, rather he freezes for only an instant. Happens maybe 5% of the time, but that is the type of seme where you dont even care if you go for the point; both players know that point was basically in.

[Thunder]

do you mean you were looking at seme during mae in iai?
or you were working on forward pressure during keiko
excuse my blondeness
:p

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "mae in iai"

[cesarekim]

I'm still at the stage where seme is something that only works when my shinai is firmly pointed in my aite's throat. The problem is that I tend to move my shinai up and to the right when preparing a cut. The moment I do that, I obviously lose any sembleance of seme. End result: I either dekote or I'm basically screwed with anyone who is at my level or above....

[yoda-waza]

Just pointing is not enough. You gotta project the strength of your intent to plow through your opponent with some kind of forward body language. If you're giving up the center in doing so, you're likely to end up toast. Pressure the center, even pushing down slightly left over the top of your opponent's shinai as you launch straight in (osae-waza), don't lift off center to the right.

[Karaken]

Just pointing is not enough. You gotta project the strength of your intent to plow through your opponent with some kind of forward body language. If you're giving up the center in doing so, you're likely to end up toast. Pressure the center, even pushing down slightly left over the top of your opponent's shinai as you launch straight in (osae-waza), don't lift off center to the right.

Mine is exactly that. Openning my kote a bit ( shinai up and tip left ) and wait for kote and then either Knote-Nuki-men or kote-kaeshi-men. Does it qualify as seme? My problem is this encourages me to be passive Oiji waza specialist. Not good for raising my level of Kendo at my level.

[Masahiro]

"seme" (pressure) can be a lot of things, the strongest types of seme i've ever experiened were. .. ...1)"ki-seme" from various higher ranks (4th dan and up), very nullifying type of kendo, when faced against these opponents, i feel like baby and the shinai that's suppose to be a sword in my hand suddenly becomes nothing but a "stick". sigh,
2)"very fast attacking-seme", these people are quick and precise, they waste no effort and are the bread and butter of shiai kendo. Mostly "Japanese imports" (meaning those people who has been doing kendo since childhood and got university kendo scholoarships and are now practicing kendo in the U.S because of their jobs.)
3)"strong chushin-seme" like Titus sensei from University of Pittsburgh. He's kensen is always at your nodo, and also aligned with the center of your ki. I don't know how to explain it, but it feels like he's got his kensen ONE inch away from your eyes. Really something!
4)"hachi-kyu-seme" very dangerous, i don' know what the hell they are going to do, some just attack like every second, not caring what they hit or how they hit, some just keep backing away and execute what i call "kyu version of hikiwaza".

all in all, if you ask me, seme is about taking "sen"/(initiative), there was a very good article in one of the kendo-world magazines that a hachidan talked about always taking "sen". such as, you can attack your opponent when he/she is not attacking. (yeah easier said than done), 2)you can take sen by countering your opponents waza/techinue, and various other ways.
I don't know a thing about seme, but i will tell you that for sandan and up, seme should be visible through their kensen. .. this is is something i think i will spend the next 5 years working on. cheers

[The great I AM]

To me a strong seme is one that makes your opponent do something that you can then use. Its not a case of a particular seme.

Personally I think that seme is a lot more ambiguous a thing than most people think. We're often taught that seme is this that or the other, but I'm of the belief that seme is as I said above, therefore one should be able to seme forwards and strike, backwards and strike, even seme whilst standing still and strike. Its not simply a case I step in towards kote and then hit men or something like that.

In the UK we are often taught to "seme and then men" but I think that this serves to greatly confuse matters in the future when people get so entangled with the idea of seme being a forward movement into your maai that it actually creates a massive barrier to people improving later on, and that their kendo in turn then becomes predictable because they feel that before they attack they have to "seme" and therefore show their naked intent.

Anyway, slightly (?) back on topic, at the moment, I'm practising more on applying kikentai no icchi to my seme, as opposed to thinking of seme as a simple action. I guess it involves the concept of sutemi starting from before the cut, as opposed to it being a part of the cut on its own. And it also involves using my "my whole package" (fnar) when I make my seme. Still trying to figure it out a little, but its working....ish....

Hmmm, maybe wildly off topic there but something I've been thinking of for ages.

[Awooga Guy]

To me a strong seme is one that makes your opponent do something that you can then use. Its not a case of a particular seme...

That's a good post there. Even got some smut in there too. 9.5/10

Awooga Guy only really has good seme when he's trying to change lanes in his car.







That is all.

[bullet08]

i thought i knew what seme was.. then i found out i didn't know a thing.

what i've found out is i'm not doing seme, but i'm faking. i'm faking for strike to get reaction out of aite. no real pressure involved. just getting basic reaction out of people who are about snap due to anticipation. this does not work against shodan or above, or mudansha who are rather seasoned and knows a fake when they see one.

pete

[D'Artagnan]

...

1). "what i've found out is i'm not doing seme, but i'm faking. i'm faking for strike to get reaction out of aite. no real pressure involved. just getting basic reaction out of people who are about snap due to anticipation."

2). "this does not work against shodan or above, or mudansha who are rather seasoned and knows a fake when they see one."




Sorry I split your quote into 2 just to make it easier

1). That in itself is 'seme', as gibbo said, there is not one single type of seme, it is far more ambigious than that. What you describe is one of the ways in which you can achieve seme on a basic level

2). Actually it does, its just a bit harder :wink: I have personally scored ippon with this kind of seme several times against people of various grades and abilities ( and a couple of times at the WKC )

[Charlie]

I think we're talking about two basic uses of seme here and one of them is more appropriate for advanced kenshi. The basic use of seme is just what you're taught to do from day one: pressure to tsuki and execute the waza. All kihon waza begin with pressure to tsuki. Seme comes from your left foot, up through your hara, and out through the kensen. In the basic model, you "step in," with seme, something opens (suki), and you take the opening.

But another use of seme is to pressure another area to get your opponent to open. As I said, I think this is somewhat advanced, and there are only a few things I do in this category and I'm by no means very good at it. (Cesare, I frequently lift up and to my right prior to a waza - arrgh!) But I think this is what we're talking about here. Example: seme up to men, then doh when opponent raises his arms. Or seme over shinai as a fake to kote, then men.

I think at a beginning level, below shodan and even shodan, it's okay to start experimenting with this, but that the majority of one's work in this area should be seme to tsuki and more basic waza. That's just me, though; please keep in mind I am only sandan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

i thought i knew what seme was.. then i found out i didn't know a thing. Get familiar with that feeling. You'll be having it over the next few decades.

[tango]

Get familiar with that feeling. You'll be having it over the next few decades.

Man, ain't that the truth...

[cesarekim]

Get familiar with that feeling. You'll be having it over the next few decades.

Two decades and I still can't even get a decent seme. :dead: I am the great immovable object but oji-waza king is not a very good way to progress... The sad thing is that kihon is something that will leave me puzzled till I die.

Thanks for the solidarity, Charlie. At some point, I will probably have to start a thread on the stuff I wish I could do in Kendo. You know, "I wish I could ..." type of thread. Only thing stopping me is I'm terrified what Kenzan would put in there :D (waits for Kenzan to slam another homerun on him...)

[JByrd]

The basic use of seme is just what you're taught to do from day one: pressure to tsuki and execute the waza.

Right, but of course, a student has no idea of what it means to apply pressure. Heck, most of us sandans are just starting to figure it out.

In lieu of an understanding of pressure, we tell students to start at tou ma then step in to issoku itto no maai. Stepping in to striking distance provides them with a physical representation of seme. I personally took a long time to connect the act of stepping in with the concept of making a threat on my opponent, and I would often step in without even being fully ready to strike.

Once I got to where I understood that I had to be ready to strike BEFORE I could apply seme, my focus shifted to "getting ready" and I began to take the act of stepping in as being perfunctory to the attack.

Finally I began to grasp the concept of seme as a way to create opportunities, as Gibbo says. Seme can be applied as a threat, or as an invitation, but either way it involves risk, and requires self-confidence, and commitment.

Now I mostly struggle when I get too concerned with how I apply pressure, and I don't pay enough attention to how my opponent is responding. It is a challenge to maintain the pressure until my opponent responds. It is a challenge to understand how I can exploit the response I get.

I have rare moments when I feel I am applying pressure as a natural expression of my self confidence ("I can hit you!"), and I am entirely focused on my opponent's response. When that happens, I enter a different zone where I feel sensitive to every little thing my opponent does, and I feel something like empathy. I can intuitively understand exactly why they are responding to me that way. I gain such a vital connection that I almost feel bad when I hit them. :smiley:

[Charlie]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JByrd again.

Well said, J, good stuff.

[tango]

Now I mostly struggle when I get too concerned with how I apply pressure, and I don't pay enough attention to how my opponent is responding. It is a challenge to maintain the pressure until my opponent responds. It is a challenge to understand how I can exploit the response I get.

I have rare moments when I feel I am applying pressure as a natural expression of my self confidence ("I can hit you!"), and I am entirely focused on my opponent's response. When that happens, I enter a different zone where I feel sensitive to every little thing my opponent does, and I feel something like empathy. I can intuitively understand exactly why they are responding to me that way. ...

Seems I'm in the exact same boat... good post.

[Bokushingu]

For me, I use my size(6,2" 210). I take a fast jirky step only with my front foot(really small step); tense while lowring my kensen in a tight jerky manner, and as soon as i see their kensen reacts even slightly, Mack Truck style Men. 90% of the time i get a clean men or enough to make them go after my kote where i can excute nuki-men.

Some people have told me that i looked extremely scary. I hope that not a negative thing.:)

[JByrd]

Seems I'm in the exact same boat... good post.

Thanks to everybody who gave me nice comments. It's reassuring to know that I'm probably dealing with issues appropriate to my level.

My mental approach to Kendo has changed a lot as a result of empathy, of seeking to share the thoughts and feelings of my opponent. Seeing a match as a "shared predicament" led me to realize that my ability to apply pressure is limited to what I myself can withstand.

That all began to crystallize when Koike Sensei and Doug Imanishi Sensei kept telling me I had to work on tame. When I pressed them, they only would give me an abstract definition of tame (to be fair, there was too little time to talk, and a quantity of beer involved :)). I'm so dumb I busted my brains for about a year before I started to get an inkling of what they meant.

[Charlie]

What is tame?

[Obulco]

What is tame?

Charlie, I do not know if it is used in Kendo the same way, but I have heard of "tame" as the gathering of both mental and physical energy right before executing a technique.

[cesarekim]

What is tame?
Obulco has the correct identification. Let me just put it in context although somebody more academically proficient should probably answer this. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Basically, tame or tameru, is waiting... Tame is that moment after you've done seme where you analyze your aite's reaction and identify the suki. I guess it can be called that moment of active analysis of the suki created by your seme. The result of this moment is a waza executed with sutemi....

Why do I feel like I'm repeating stuff I was told but barely understand???

[Bokushingu]

ahhh I understand. I see that moment alot and can actively use it.

[DCPan]

What is tame?

Think of the "rage gauge" on game consoles....

I like to think of it as "building suspence" or "making the other guy sweat" before you hit them.

In other words, if you have no tame, you are not giving your opponent time to respond to your seme....

[cesarekim]

Think of the "rage gauge" on game consoles....

I like to think of it as "building suspence" or "making the other guy sweat" before you hit them.

In other words, if you have no tame, you are not giving your opponent time to respond to your seme....

Rage gauge??? I suddenly feel older and out of synch with the times. Of course my first and only console was an intellivision...

[mark]

Thanks to everybody who gave me nice comments. It's reassuring to know that I'm probably dealing with issues appropriate to my level.

I find the "issues appropriate to my level" important. I barely can see or even have a clue of what people 3+ levels up are trying to do learn:( I have to focus on what improvements are accessible to my kendo... building the foundations so to speak... I don't think there are short cuts.

One of the things I found surprising in this thread is that several posts suggest that kyu should be working on a version of seme. I am surprised that it is the same beast.

As sandans +, what version or challenge of seme do you think nidan's should be likely be working on.

[bullet08]

so seme is like two kids in play ground going.. 'i dare you!'.. 'and i double dare you!'.. and when one of the boy thrust his chest out to show how brave he is, the other one cocks his fist and give the other one bloody nose. and tame is when the other boy decided that the thrust of the chest is a suki and throws the punch?

pete

[JSchmidt]

Seme is mostly about breaking the opponents comfort barrier, without breaking your own.

[Charlie]

Thanks, guys. I always equated what's being called tame as being part of zanshin. It sounds like you could say seme is pressure/exploration, tame is considering the options, waza is the execution and zanshin is what's left over, ready to cut again.

I get the whole rage bar analogy! As for what a nidan should be working on in terms of seme, well, keeping in mind my low rank, I'll throw in my two yen: Some coaches feel differently, but I think it's important to concentrate on the basic seme to tsuki that precedes most waza, and to remember that seme is also readiness, it is what allows a kenshi to take a suki or deliver a debana waza. Do you know what I mean? Seme to me is like two soap bubbles pushing together. As they push, one or both will break, that's the moment of waza execution (kake, I think the term is?).

[Neil Gendzwill]

We don't really expect to see much actual seme until the yondan shinsa.

[JByrd]

I like to think of it as "building suspence" or "making the other guy sweat" before you hit them.

In other words, if you have no tame, you are not giving your opponent time to respond to your seme....

Damn! That sums it right up.

Because we are in the same predicament, every time I apply pressure to my opponent, I put the same pressure on myself to back it up. If I'm not careful, I can create a situation that is so tense that I can't stand it. I begin to sweat under the pressure, and then I make bad decisions.

It is amazing how Kendo parallels life. It is easy to make commitments that put us under more pressure than we can stand. But if we never commit to the point of maximum strain, we can never improve our ability to withstand the pressure.

[DCPan]

Damn! That sums it right up.

Because we are in the same predicament, every time I apply pressure to my opponent, I put the same pressure on myself to back it up. If I'm not careful, I can create a situation that is so tense that I can't stand it. I begin to sweat under the pressure, and then I make bad decisions.

Haven't you heard of the phrases:

"The one who breaks kamae first loses?" :D

"Maai is the distribution of fear"? :D

It's amazing how things starts falling into place....

BTW, cycle of attack =

kiai - seme - tame - kuzushii - suki - datotsu - zanshin

So, if the other guy's kigurai is above yours, it is you that crumble/break kamae first ("kuzushii"), not the other guy.

[DCPan]

Haven't you heard of the phrases:

"The one who breaks kamae first loses?" :D

"Maai is the distribution of fear"? :D

Hey Jon,

Just re-read that and realized that didn't quite come out the way I wanted it to...was trying to be funny, but I came across differently I think....

Sorry! :D

[Thunder]

Thank you for all of your feedback on seme.

I defer to those who are well above me...but in the responses it seems like there is an opinion that SEME is an Nidan and above attribute--

But isn't seme a foundational skill? I think that Kyu, the lowly, would still have to practice...nearly everyday so that in 60 years when we attempt Hachidan--we might understand it fully?

I wonder why some people think that certain skills/techniques should only be attempted by higher levels? I understand we do it poorly...but you can't walk before you crawl...

[Septimus]

This is true. I already think a lot about my seme, and I'm 4th kyu. I've already built up what I've heard is a great kiai for my kyu. I already had some good fundamental seme when I was in my first tournament at my dojo. It was the second time I even had on a bogu, but I still was able to see that if I pushed for a men, my opponent would often block it, and I could've hit dô. Of course, I didn't have the speed, nor skills to pull that of at the time.

[mark]

Thank you for all of your feedback on seme.

I defer to those who are well above me...but in the responses it seems like there is an opinion that SEME is an Nidan and above attribute--

But isn't seme a foundational skill? I think that Kyu, the lowly, would still have to practice...nearly everyday so that in 60 years when we attempt Hachidan--we might understand it fully?

I wonder why some people think that certain skills/techniques should only be attempted by higher levels? I understand we do it poorly...but you can't walk before you crawl...

I don't think it is a problem of doing it poorly, but rather of unlearning what you are trying to learn.

One of the big challenge in kendo as I see it, is learning to attack with abandon (Noma sensei, Kendo reader) attacking full throttle when there is an opening without any thought of getting hit. Another big challenge is having a forward mind,- always focused on, and being physically and mentally ready to attack your opponent. They are some of the things they test for in the nidan shinsa.

IMHO, until you have a beginners level of these skills (nidan +) and they are well ingrained, trying to manage your opponent (seme) will only lead to a passive defensive mind.

I need to build and re-build my kendo foundations before I add something new. Adding new stuff might be fun, but it is only a distraction that will slowdown my progress unless the foundations are there to support it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wonder why some people think that certain skills/techniques should only be attempted by higher levels? I understand we do it poorly...but you can't walk before you crawl...It is taught very early in a fundamental fashion - step in and hit. I don't think anyone is saying you can't do that. But your understanding of it will grow with time, and nobody expects to see much beneath the surface of the motion until 3 or 4 dan.

[DCPan]

But isn't seme a foundational skill? I think that Kyu, the lowly, would still have to practice...nearly everyday so that in 60 years when we attempt Hachidan--we might understand it fully?

Opinions will obviously differ on this one.

Let me share my "recent" personal experience.

I was working on getting a sense of "tame" during one practice, and my sempai asked me "Why are you stopping after you enter before you hit?"

I said, "I was trying tame".

He said, "You're just stopping".

Really, I'm currently inclined to believe that up until sandan or yondan, the main focus would be to work on your basics such that your body isn't fighting you when you are trying to execute your technique.

Until your body is listening to you, it's much harder to play the mental game because your body is holding you back.

For example, my seme is not where I want it to be because my ashi-sabaki can't support my irimi and the length of time it takes me to draw up my back leg when I try to enter from yokote-no-ma to uchi-ma is long enough that most people can pick me off....

I wouldn't personally say you shouldn't work on something...it's more along the lines of thinking what is your best return on investment in training that's stage appropriate.

Your seme is just bluffing if you don't have the ability to hit the other guy...so, until you have very good ki-ken-tai-ichi, there really isn't much seme to work on.

YMMV

[Czymra]

Last week, I was taught to apply seme (or maybe rather trigger the opponent) by going in only with your right foot. It's like a little fumikomi (not hard) and harai without moving your left foot and without taking your balance of center. Often techniques that my sensei had us try included actually going back afterwards to receive a cut, followed by a step forward to cut. I found this very interesting for it pressures very strongly without putting you off balance.

P.S.: I really love Hizen. Great training. Anyone else here at Hizen?

[mark]

I wouldn't personally say you shouldn't work on something...it's more along the lines of thinking what is your best return on investment in training that's stage appropriate.

Your seme is just bluffing if you don't have the ability to hit the other guy...so, until you have very good ki-ken-tai-ichi, there really isn't much seme to work on.
YMMV

Very well said!

[hyuna]

kiai - seme - tame - kuzushii - suki - datotsu - zanshin

I am sure I am just overthinking again, but I find that I am getting really confused about ordering.

Collapse in your opponent is very fast, and people can recover quickly. If you have to recognize it consciously before you can act, it is already too late. So I do not think tame is like an analysis phase. Also, if you are tall like me, it is suicide to move to uchi-ma before there is an opportunity to hit -- all they have to do is take one more step and now they are ready to go, and now they are too close for me, so it is just giving them a free ride to their maai*.

So if you move in to uchi-ma, and your opponent breaks, then you hit. But then where was the tame after the seme? On the other hand, there had to be a tension already or else your opponent would not have broken when you closed the distance. So it seems like tame had to be there before seme.

If you have a tense situation then maybe your opponent will spontaneously collapse due to the psychological pressure. But just setting up a tense situation in the hope that the other guy will blink first sounds a little too much like waiting. I think maybe we should be trying to recognize the impending collapse, and then to trigger it at the right time with sharp action. That way we remain in control of the situation, rather than just trying to sweat it out. So here again, it seems like the primary tension must come before seme.

In both of these cases, I am only talking about physical seme. Of course there has to be something that comes before the tension, or else there wouldn't be any reason for tension to build. I suppose that would be ki seme. So I do understand one sense in which tame follows seme, but that is not the same kind of seme that I think that people usually refer to when they talk about seme.




* (I wonder if this is different for people who are shorter than average, since maybe hanging around in their uchi-ma and other people's chika-ma would be a position of strength for them, relatively speaking)

[Masahiro]

i don't understand tame, and kuzushii, i only see suki and then i hit. maybe i am dumb. :disapp:

[DCPan]

I am sure I am just overthinking again, but I find that I am getting really confused about ordering.

I'd be "lying" if I said I get it.

I would not call "tame" the decision phase.

If anything, tame is more like the "result" of one's seme.

So, the tame would be the dynamic tension between you and your opponent as a result of interaction between your seme and his/hers.

The order is just an idealized order of occurence. The chain of events doesn't necessarily imply conscious awareness of each event.

I am inclined to believe tame feels like "bullet time" when done right though.

The order of events actually came from a combo of what I got from Baba Kinji's "Kendo: Traditional Skills" book and Nanbanjin's translation from ichinikai.

[DCPan]

Let me put it this way:

tame-kuzushii doesn't necessary happen in the cycle of attack, but if there is no tame/kuzushii...you are not winning before you strike.

Make sense?

[cesarekim]

Most of my good hits have been seme wham! wtf? I'm still at the stage where if things work well, there is very little mental stuff going on. I pressure, I hit ippon and I'm off... I know the cut was good but there was very little mental analysis. My shinai just went for it...

One sensei said something rather pertinent about this. At sandan, you have to start CREATING suki. Up to then, you can pick the low hanging fruit but when you're challenging yondan, you'll meet somebody who has just as good a kamae as you. A test where both parties stand in trance across the center will easily be a communal failure. In order to create suki, you need to seme and build on the reaction.

Did I misunderstand him or am I close? :confused:

[Fonsz]

Sensible stuff.......

Did I misunderstand him or am I close? :confused:
I think you are quite right in this thoughtful observation. However I find it "easier" to encounter people of a higher level. There is more communication between each other. You can be clobbered but you can also "guess" what's coming because there is some kind of communication going.
The toughest ones are the hachikyu's who don't want to get hit and will do everything to prevent it. You must be really really skilled to pull of the topics that are discussed here with them.
I recognize a lot of things that are being discussed here, but the hardest part is doing it. Back to the Dojo then.......

[Charlie]

Most of my good hits have been seme wham! wtf? I'm still at the stage where if things work well, there is very little mental stuff going on. I pressure, I hit ippon and I'm off... I know the cut was good but there was very little mental analysis. My shinai just went for it...

One sensei said something rather pertinent about this. At sandan, you have to start CREATING suki. Up to then, you can pick the low hanging fruit but when you're challenging yondan, you'll meet somebody who has just as good a kamae as you. A test where both parties stand in trance across the center will easily be a communal failure. In order to create suki, you need to seme and build on the reaction.

Did I misunderstand him or am I close? :confused:

This is certainly what I am thinking, as a sandan ready to preparing to take the yondan shinsa. I think, as has been said, you can start working on seme from day one, just that your knowledge of it and ability to use it will deepen with time. I myself am still trying to utilize it in the ways being discussed.

[mark]

Baba Kinji's "Kendo: Traditional Skills" book

I don't remember hearing about that book and a quick check of my usual sources turned up blank? Do you know were it can be sourced?

[hyuna]

tame-kuzushii doesn't necessary happen in the cycle of attack, but if there is no tame/kuzushii...you are not winning before you strike.
Yes, that fits in with my present understanding...

The thing that I am trying to figure out is if tame is "simply" building pressure, or if there is something more to it.

[Masahiro]

Yes, that fits in with my present understanding...

The thing that I am trying to figure out is if tame is "simply" building pressure, or if there is something more to it.

well, yeah I guess all of us are inclined to stop and ponder the intricate details ourselves, one time or another during this journey. So, best of luck.

as for this "tame....etc", i agree with what you said DC. if you there is no tame then you are not winning before you hit. yet, I say winning is winning. I can't consciously always think about "is there tame?" . and "if so, then i have won" and then "hit" . .. ...at my level (and very low
that is) when i see a chance to hit, i hit. i don't want to think, and i don't need think about it before i hit. that's up to th judges to decide if my strike was indeed a winning strike. I am sure it will come to me some day!

[Twobitmage]

My instructor is always telling me to work on seme.

I don't think the travesty is so much in trying to figure out what it is. I think the travesty is in presuming to know exactly what seme is and how to apply it.

[Czymra]

Another point my sensei made was that if somebody really has constant seme (in the sense of pressure) you are even pressured when he's moving back, because his kensen is right there (feels at your throat). I think that's the way to go.

[JByrd]

Yes, that fits in with my present understanding...

The thing that I am trying to figure out is if tame is "simply" building pressure, or if there is something more to it.

There may very well be much more than I have an inkling about...:smiley: So far I've just been trying to figure out how it applies to my own problems. What happens to me is that I apply pressure to a strong opponent who either resists the urge to respond, or responds in such a way that I get no advantage. Little by little I lose my cool and try to press a stronger threat than I can really back up, then I overextend myself and get hit.

Physically what I feel is that as I lose my cool, the tension moves from my legs and lower abdomen up into my upper body and arms, and my level of readiness, and my ability to respond flexibly, is degraded. Even if I can make a decent attempt at a strike, the tension in my arms makes my tenouchi less sharp, and the lack of energy in my legs keeps me from bringing in my hips quickly to achieve kikentai no itchi.

[DCPan]

as for this "tame....etc", i agree with what you said DC. if you there is no tame then you are not winning before you hit. yet, I say winning is winning.

As cesarekim was alluding to, this is the sandan-yondan barrier.

Around that level, there's only so many "unforced error" that you can take advantage of.

If you don't know how to force your opponent to make an error, then you won't pass the sandan-yondan barrier.

[Charlie]

Well said, DC. This is where I feel I'm at. Creating the opening, seeing the opening, taking the opening. Some days I feel I am making progress. Other days, no. But on the plus side, sempai and sensei have told me they are still working on it, too.

[cesarekim]

"I think I've finally figured out seme. Now just another 30 years and I will be able to apply it consistently" some 6dan a couple of days before passing 7 dan.

I guess this is a LONG journey with a lot of different base camps you have to stop at. Sort of like being at sea level and looking up Mt. Everest...

[Thunder]

I watched a great documentary on Everest Climbers...Long story short, all of the climbers vowed to listen to the base-camp commander's orders if they could attempt summit or turn around and try another year. The climbers were in the death-zone, where they were so high you literally have hours ticking before you die due to lack of oxygen even with oxygen tanks...

One climber kept ignoring the call to come down, he was running out of time and oxygen-- from his viewpoint he saw the summit...and just wanted another 30 minutes to reach it....But from base camp, they had a different perspective-- The climber's "summit" was a sharp ridge, behind that ridge was hidden the true summit...another 700 yards away, roughly another Hour of climbing...Meanwhile, he walks by numerous frozen bodies of similar climbers who failed to listen to their commander....

Perspective-- mental and physical perspective. Strange metaphor for us--but there is something there to ponder.

[MAZ77]

I watched a great documentary on Everest Climbers...Long story short, all of the climbers vowed to listen to the base-camp commander's orders if they could attempt summit or turn around and try another year. The climbers were in the death-zone, where they were so high you literally have hours ticking before you die due to lack of oxygen even with oxygen tanks...

One climber kept ignoring the call to come down, he was running out of time and oxygen-- from his viewpoint he saw the summit...and just wanted another 30 minutes to reach it....But from base camp, they had a different perspective-- The climber's "summit" was a sharp ridge, behind that ridge was hidden the true summit...another 700 yards away, roughly another Hour of climbing...Meanwhile, he walks by numerous frozen bodies of similar climbers who failed to listen to their commander....

Perspective-- mental and physical perspective. Strange metaphor for us--but there is something there to ponder.

I saw a similar documentary where one of the climbers had asthma. They came to a point where the asthmatic could not even move his body anymore due to the sheer lack of oxygen. He was very attentive to the base commander and pack leader. At one point the camp leader told him he could not climb any further and needed to descend back down the mountain. He listened and lived because of it.

[Masahiro]

Around that level, there's only so many "unforced error" that you can take advantage of.

hmm, yeah. that's true. After some thought, you are right.



Perspective-- mental and physical perspective. Strange metaphor for us--but there is something there to ponder

for some reason, that makes me feel like my kendo's crap. :surprise:

[cesarekim]

for some reason, that makes me feel like my kendo's crap. :surprise:

It's a question of perspective. What is crap for you would probably be God-like ability for a lower level... Like mine... I distinctly remember as a dojo brat hearing my sensei's sensei saying that he felt his skills had deteriorated with age. I thought it funny that a 70+ year old hachidan hanshi who had just steamrolled 30 people (who could have been his grandchildren) could say his skills were bad.

[Kenshi]

Lot of interesting comments made here!!!

I get exposure to some great teaching overe here and I would say that seme is something that isnt easily defined and that is different for different people. Like learning how to tsuki, its best to introduce the concept/practise early and let yourself build it up/explore from there. Grade isnt really an appropriate measure.

For me, however, I would say seme starts with confidence. Confidence that you can go forward (backward/sideways) and strike; confidence in your technique; confidence in responding to your opponent; etc. On top of this layer of confidence you put a bit chunk of sutemi (this without confidence is lucky at best, and suicide at worst). I find that that I can apply my idea of seme more when I know I can handle/control my opponent (or I have a chance to if I up my game).

Onto confidence and sutemi, add some rationale. Is what you are doing feasable? Is it random attacking with no reason?

Occasionally I meet/met people who just stand their doing there best to hold center. This, like the people who learn how to seme by going "ahhh..(step in).. men!" (the kind gibbo mentioned earlier), is a fundamental mistake in my opinion.

[Shazzanzzz]

i guess everyone here practices their seme. But does anyone here do ji-geiko trying NOT to seme? I actually do that quite often in ji-geiko against people i'm senior of. I find it easier to react when i actually seme and focus if i practice like that.

[Usagi San]

For me, however, I would say seme starts with confidence. (...) I find that that I can apply my idea of seme more when I know I can handle/control my opponent (or I have a chance to if I up my game).

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge? Of your hability, I mean? Conscience?
I read this thread almost in once and I think nobody talked about that situation.
Sometimes, when you face a "weaker" adversary you can "feel" his fear. You don't have to fake a movement, sometimes you just think about it and he'll jump back :scared: two meters away from you.

Isn't that seme in action? It is, right?

Now I'm wondering: is that why facing a rokudan/nanadan/hachidan is so difficult? I mean I KNOW their knowledge of kendo is waaaaaaaay bigger then mine :down: .
Only that makes the other seme (against someone with equivalent skills) what?
A mere feint? The result of despair? or does it have to be sutemi? If he's not "affraid" of you... you see what I mean?

Any thoughts?

[JByrd]

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge? Of your hability, I mean? Conscience?
I read this thread almost in once and I think nobody talked about that situation.
Sometimes, when you face a "weaker" adversary you can "feel" his fear. You don't have to fake a movement, sometimes you just think about it and he'll jump back :scared: two meters away from you.

Isn't that seme in action? It is, right?

Now I'm wondering: is that why facing a rokudan/nanadan/hachidan is so difficult? I mean I KNOW their knowledge of kendo is waaaaaaaay bigger then mine :down: .
Only that makes the other seme (against someone with equivalent skills) what?
A mere feint? The result of despair? or does it have to be sutemi? If he's not "affraid" of you... you see what I mean?

Any thoughts?

It's a bit hard to understand what you are asking, but if I can take a stab at it...

I think it is all a matter of the signals that we send to our opponents, and how those signals are interpreted by them. We may intend to convey a certain meaning with our action, but we have no control over how our opponent interprets it.

We are constantly analyzing our opponent's signals to try to understand his intentions and disposition, and how he is reacting to the signals we are sending. We are tied in what might be called a "feedback loop." We decide when to attack based on our understanding of our opponent's disposition. Frequently we discover that we have been misinterpreting the signals, and being struck re-introduces us to reality.

Strong players are perceived as such because they are mostly sending signals that indicate they are fully ready, and attack is imminent. When we try to threaten them, they send us signals that tell us they are unintimidated, and prepared to meet our threat. It can go the other way, too. They can sucker you in by sending you signals to make you believe that you are going to win right up until the moment you are struck.

[Usagi San]

It's a bit hard to understand what you are asking, but if I can take a stab at it...

I know sometimes I even loose myself when I'm thinking in portuguese, let alone writing in english. As a matter of fact I guess was just "tipping out loud"... sorry about that.

I was just realizing the diference I feel between applying seme against someone not that advanced in kendo and an expert, or at least someone the same level of me.

And part of your answer deals with that (sen-no-sen): "They can sucker you in by sending you signals to make you believe that you are going to win right up until the moment you are struck."

Thanks, thanks I got try something tomorrow during keiko. Again thanks.

[DCPan]

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge? Of your hability, I mean? Conscience?Any thoughts?

Yeah...the equivalent in the animal kingdom would be "display behavior"....

[Kenshi]

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge?

confidence, knowledge and balls, often supported by experience.

some people just have confidence and balls. with these 2, however, you can go quite far.

anyway, everyones different.

[DCPan]

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge?

Well, if you don't believe you are able to hit the other guy, he certainly isn't going to believe it.

YMMV.

[Kingofmyrrh]

So, in a way, what you're saying is that seme is knowledge? Of your hability, I mean? Conscience?
As you face an opponent, even for the first time, you have an idea of his ability before the bout really kicks off. Their posture in sonkyo, their kamae as they stand up, all these factors allow you to intuitively feel whether this opponent might be strong or not. Equally, your opponent receives similar impressions about yourself. As the bout progresses, you fine tune your judgement of their level based on their strikes and movements. You gain an understanding of the destructive power that they can deploy against you.

If you realise that your opponent does not have much of this destructive power, then it doesn't really matter how they try to seme you, as you know that their attacks cannot penetrate. It's like sitting in a bullet proof car as someone fires at you with a handgun. You will not be concerned, and will not react excessively. On the other hand, if you become aware of the fact that the weapons your opponent has are more than powerful enough to do you damage, then that concern will mean that you react excessively to even their slightest action.

This isn't a comment on seme in general, just one aspect of what "confidence" might mean in the context of seme.

[cesarekim]

I tried something tonight on a kohai just to see how he reacted. He tends to be very nervous in jigeiko and will break kamae on a twitch. Tonight, I intentionally tried to avoid movement and merely tensed my leg muscles in as subtle a manner as I could. The first couple of times, I tensed my muscles, waited a second and went for the cut. He never reacted until after I completed the cut. I then proceeded to tense my muscles and wait. He broke kamae and the kote was wide open. I'm not sure how visible the muscle tension was but it was sufficient for him to react to.

As George says, it could just be confidence that I can hit my kohai when I want that allows me to convey a less visible seme. The real proof of concept on this is going to be on Saturday when I try this on a couple of peers and on sensei.

If this type of less visible seme works, the next stage is figuring out how the strong players manage to place pressure on you even as they retreat to maintain maai. There is NO physical hint in this scenario and still they maintain pressure. Still have no idea how they do that. I know one sensei communicates all kinds of stuff just with his wide open eyes. This is effective against me but I've seen him get smacked around by strong players so it isn't sufficient by itself. Non-physical seme, otherwise known as the staredown of death... How do you develop THAT?

[tilt]

Harden your stare, look him in the eyes and think yourself slowly saying "Don't you f***ing move."

[DCPan]

If this type of less visible seme works, the next stage is figuring out how the strong players manage to place pressure on you even as they retreat to maintain maai.

[Snip]

How do you develop THAT?

Why did Matt Damon go to learn boxing for six month before filming Bourne Identity? :D

[bobdonny]

What do you think your "strongest" seme is-- technically speaking. What is your opponent's reaction to your seme. I noticed quite a variety of reactions from my opponents (which would naturally vary with the person) but I would be interested to hear your experiences.

from a book i just read...


.....What is necessary is to develop to a level of combat where the accuracy of this kind of sensation (the role of feeling your opponents Ki) is confirmed by a blow delivered with complete certainty. A practitioner who has reached this level will attach maximal importance to that which underlies the combat, that is, to the combat of Ki, the combat that takes place before the actual exchange of blows.

If you are disconcerted by your opponents seme, his Ki offensive, and you sketch a movement of defence in the void, it is because you have acted explicitly against that which is implicit, that is, you have responded to a mental phenomenon with a physical movement. In doing that you have committed an error in your discernment of reality. If you become aware of this instantly, you feel a sense of dissociation in yourself, because your mind is not able to stop the body from making its erroneous gesture. If you sketch this futile movement, it is because your opponent has succeeded in making you move in spite of yourself. Therefore at this precise instant you have lost the possibility of taking the initiative and thus have lost without receiving a single blow.
....

[Czymra]

That's a very good quote. What book is it from?

[bobdonny]

Ki and the way of martial art - most recommended

[Kenshi]

When you first try beer, its not very nice right? But you keep drinking and drinking then, at some point, it gets tasty. Describing the taste is somewhat futile, even if your drinking in the same bar (or same can!). I prefer to get in there and drink some... and drink I shall !

Oh, and once youve got the taste, its best to drink as much and as often as you can for maximum enjoyment!!!

[bobdonny]

When you first try beer, its not very nice right?
You see your arguement falls down here ;)

[mark]

Ki and the way of martial art - most recommended

I must admit I have had trouble with this thread in particular with the definition that seems to be given to seme. A number of my seniors in this thread seem to give a very expansive definition of seme which encompases elementary interaction with an oponent such as stepping in before a strike, holding center, feints and the like which are learn't very early in kendo and refined over time.

My understanding of the word seme is much more restrictive and is discussed by Tokitsu sensei in the book you quoted.

In his book he explains that for seme to exist you need to be ready to strike, be able to strike without a "sign", and be engaged with your opponent at proper mai. In addition, your opponent must not have open targets, be able to read an attack, and have the skills to react appropriately to the attack.

If these two sets of pre-requisites don't exist there is no conversation, no seme, no shift in the mind of your opponent. He sumarizes this tought as follows on p33 ""Causing a shift in the mind of your opponent" means that this act causes in your opponent the movement of an entire accumulation of combat experience, actualizing bodily memories on which anticipation is based. Thus those who have no experience of combat will not react in a technical way in response to seme or kizeme."

My current understanding is that seme is the conversation. If you or your partner do not have the nescessary skills there is no conversation, no seme. I currently understand that these conversations are the domain of sandans +. Before that, most of us just don't have the language skills and are preparing the groundwork. Am I mistaken?

[Karaken]

My current understanding is that seme is the conversation. If you or your partner do not have the nescessary skills there is no conversation, no seme. I currently understand that these conversations are the domain of sandans +. Before that, most of us just don't have the language skills and are preparing the groundwork. Am I mistaken?

I don't think you need to be fluent in that language to understand "Here I come". Even when I was 4 kyu, I felt uneasiness from my sensei's seme. I didn't know exactly what and why but I was uncomfortable and it made me anxious and jumpy. I had many bouts with nana-dans, some have overwhelmingly strong seme that chokes you and some have absolutely peaceful no-seme-seme that puts you in false safe state. I agree it's a conversation but I don't think you need to be certain level to understand it. Everyone would have a different level of understanding and how to interpret but even non-English speaking person knows the meaning of "NO!".

[Paikea]

Why did Matt Damon go to learn boxing for six month before filming Bourne Identity? :DSame reason you got that cool dog...chicks dig it.

[Fudo-Shin]

When learning a language you can understand it before you can speak it. Even though you can feel Sensei's Seme it doesn't mean that you can contribute to the conversation until you have the skill.

[hyuna]

My current understanding is that seme is the conversation. If you or your partner do not have the nescessary skills there is no conversation, no seme. I currently understand that these conversations are the domain of sandans +. Before that, most of us just don't have the language skills and are preparing the groundwork. Am I mistaken?
I think it is possible to have conversations with limited vocabulary.

What constitutes "open targets" depends on the level of the two players -- something that is open to a 5-dan may not be open to a 1-kyu. Similarly, even though a 1-kyu may not be able to read the attack of a 5-dan, much less respond appropriately, a 1-kyu may well be able to read and react appropriately to the attack of a fellow mudansha.

They say that when we practice with juniors, we should do hikitate keiko and try to play at only around +1 dan to them. A lot of people have been exposed to all of the basic shikake and ooji waza even at 1-dan, so I don't think that hikitate keiko means to deliberately restrict your waza to some small subset. I'm not old, but a lot of people who have lower rank are already plenty faster than me, so I don't think it means to be deliberately slow and clumsy. So what does it mean to practice at only +1 dan to them? I think it only makes sense if you accept that 2-dan and below do have some understanding. If you do not react the way a "+1 dan" would react -- that is, if you do not respond to their (attempts at) seme the way a "+1 dan" would -- then you are not playing at that level. So, I think that hikitate keiko means that you are supposed to "converse" at that level, which means that you should perform physical seme in a way that your junior can see and react to it, and you should make an appropriate reaction to their seme. So, I think the whole way we are supposed to practice with juniors suggests that there are different "levels" of seme that we progress through.

But I could be mistaken. Like the others, I am still trying to figure this stuff out.

[mark]

Why did Matt Damon go to learn boxing for six month before filming Bourne Identity? :D

Do boxers have seme?

[JSchmidt]

Do boxers have seme?

Watch almost any sport and you'll see it.

[Awooga Guy]

Same reason you got that cool dog...chicks dig it.

Yakyakyak! :D





That is all.

[Bokushingu]

Do boxers have seme?


Most definately. But we call it pressure and it is primarely the tool of a boxer/counter-puncher. The fighters that used it extremely well were Holyfield, Trinnidad, De La Hoya, Sugar Ray leonard, but in my opinion the best users of it were Mike Tyson(in his prime which is unique for punchers) & Big ole forman(a Puncher counter fighter).

In the stable I trained in, boxer/puncher was the style which relies heavily on pressure.

[cesarekim]

I think it was called the killer glare in my boxing gym... It never worked on me as I'm blind as a bat. Not that it mattered as the only hint I often got was a smack across the face.... I have a tradition of sucking in MANY martial arts :smoker:

[DCPan]

Do boxers have seme?

I mentioned that because I was impressed that Matt Damon said he did boxing because he wanted to have "the walk" as a special agent would, after the type of hand to hand training they would have experienced. The way they carry themselves is simply different.

Similarly, you are being weighed and measured the moment you step in, be it shiai or shinza, as they are an indicator of who you are and where you are.

I also second the recommendation for Kenji Tokitsu's books. I esp liked the section he had about te-no-uchi.

Mark, I would distinguish between seme and kiseme...as for prerequisite, while that does filter the effect, I don't need to be bitten to want to run away from a lion....

[Bokushingu]

movies are a poor source about boxing. never heard of the walk. However many non-boxers would come train: Models, military special units, police officers. I believe they just want the endurance training.

[DCPan]

movies are a poor source about boxing. never heard of the walk. However many non-boxers would come train: Models, military special units, police officers. I believe they just want the endurance training.

It isn't so much about the actual walk as the "way" you carry yourself.

My old aikido teacher at summer school actually figured out I did kendo just by the way I walked into class.

YMMV.

[mark]

One of the things I like about forum such as these is that sometimes your understanding can be wrong and it becomes pretty evident that it is wrong. My understanding of the definition of seme is obvioiusly too restrictive (read wrong). Thanks for the insight guys & gals.
I need to get myself a kendo dictionary:)

[The great I AM]

It isn't so much about the actual walk as the "way" you carry yourself.

My old aikido teacher at summer school actually figured out I did kendo just by the way I walked into class.

YMMV.Were you almost skipping with both your fists held out in front of your belly?

[DCPan]

Were you almost skipping with both your fists held out in front of your belly?


Maybe it was just my blue fingernails and that smell of indigo dye? :D