Correct hands in mokuso

[yagyuu gal]

Does anyone know for sure which hand in on the lap and which hand is laid facing up? It seems people who trained in Japan learned one way and US sensei insist on another. I know it's not critical, but some people were curious to hear others' opinions...

[Paikea]

Left hand on top of the right, thumbs just touching. Like this: http://www.mushinkankendo.com/mokuso.jpg

[Kenzan]

How about your eyes?
Open or closed?
I have seen many people close their eyes or even squint. Is this correct?
This is a bit confusing, because as I have been exposed to Zazen prior to studying Kendo, and I was told not to close the eyes (http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/howtodozazen02.htm).

[ben]

Half-closed.

b

[don don]

This is what I've been taught and observed. In a temple, or in Buddhist meditation, the right hand is underneath. This is considered the 'active' side of the body (left handedness was never exactly encouraged here) and it's placed there to support the other hand. In Kendo, however, the left side of the body is 'active', especially the left hand, which is why it's placed underneath when we do mokuso in the Dojo.
Has anyone here been taught differently by a sensei, I wonder? It wouldn't surprise me to find differences.
I often see 'lazy thumbs' in us westerners. They need to point right up, forming a nice triangle, and just rest lightly together. They're an excellent indicator of tension in arms and shoulders, as I'm sure you all know.
I was taught the gaze should drop naturally down to about a 45 degree angle. Perhaps this makes some people look as if their eyes are half closed.
In receiving religious instruction from a priest I was told that if I wished I could 'make' forward circles with the breath, just for the first few times of breathing. ie, imagine it circulating down the front of the body and up the spine. She insisted that this is only an aid to help us 'settle' and sholdn't be held onto. I think she even said that in some ways it's best not to bother with this if you can manage. I thought this was interesting as I've encountered some 'Ki-raising' Budo where people are asked to make 'backward circles' with the breath. ie, in the opposite direction... curious, yeah?

[don don]

(Oops, just read Paikea's post properly and looked at his picture. I'm not surprised to see right hand on the bottom, I know some people do that. I wonder which is most common in Japanese Dojo? Perhaps it's time for me to find out... Either way, we all need to follow whatever sensei does...)

[Paikea]

I have seen sensei doing it both ways...most I've seen do it like Uchida-sensei in the picture, though.

[xvikingx]

I wonder which is most common in Japanese Dojo? Perhaps it's time for me to find out...

So far in every dojo I have been to whether it be iai, kendo, or aikido it has always been the left on top of the right. The thumbs should be barely touching but slightly overlaping. I'll have to dig up the book when I get home but it said something about a shadow (the left) over coming the sun (the right).

...To be continued

[Neil Gendzwill]

Right over left in our dojo. Never asked why.

[DCPan]

I often see 'lazy thumbs' in us westerners. They need to point right up, forming a nice triangle, and just rest lightly together.

Funny you should mention that, as one of the kendo sensei in our religion who also teaches meditation and is from Japan, actually teaches you to bend the thumb inward, lightly touching only.

I've seen it done both ways regarding which hand on top, just a matter of which mudra you want.

[Kenshi]

as far as the znkr is concerned, im 99.9% positive its left on top. i rarely see people doing it the other way round and - if i do - they tend to be beginners who havent been told which way they should do it. of-course no reason is given for it. but, as viking says, there is a specific meaning to the action... ill let him look for it!!!

i recieved instruction on how to do this from a kendo hanshi 8dan, iaido kyoshi 7dan, a very senior koryu practitioner, and a practising buddhist priest. in fact, he used to teach zen at a leading temple in japan.

but - lets face it - unless you are a practising buddhist it doesnt really matter which way you do it at the end of the day, right?

[ender84567]

the 'official' way listed via auskf is left over right, someone failed a test because the did it the opposit way.

[Dervish]

the 'official' way listed via auskf is left over right, someone failed a test because the did it the opposit way.

What rank was he testing for?

[ZealUK]

The name of the mudra is zenjyou-in or just jyou-in. I was confused about the position of the hands, because in many statues buddhas are portrayed with the right hand on top of the left.

It turns out that zen influenced statues of Shaka-sama have reversed the mudra, so the left hand is over the right.

Maybe you should do mokuso like the kids at my school do before class. Slump onto the desk and doze for 30 seconds.....

I can't believe that someone would fail a grading for having their hands the 'wrong' way round in mokuso....

[DCPan]

I can't believe that someone would fail a grading for having their hands the 'wrong' way round in mokuso....

I heard someone fail 5th dan for the men-himo hanging over 40cm...at least that was one of the reasons given....

IMHO, 40 cm is really really short...I like it about 50 cm...if it is about 40cm, everytime you turn sharply, the himo whips up and start sitting on your men flaps and it's really annoying. But since I chopped my men himo to 40 cm, I'll have to live with it.

[hyuna]

Funny you should mention that, as one of the kendo sensei in our religion who also teaches meditation and is from Japan, actually teaches you to bend the thumb inward, lightly touching only.

Hmm. I was taught the hands should make a nice round oval. Arms, too, nice and rounded.

Oh, left hand on top of right.

And eyes closed or half-closed, gaze downward.

[Fudo-Shin]

I was also taught from my sensei this way (previous post).
Left hand on right, oval shape, thumbs lightly touching. Maybe the different postures are geographical or something?

The eyes are ever so slightly open so you can see if someone is sneaking up on you. I guess we don't have that problem these days, but it seems to encourage good Zanshin anyway.

[Kenshi]

I heard someone fail 5th dan for the men-himo hanging over 40cm...at least that was one of the reasons given....

thats ridiculous. where?

as for 40cm - thats what it says, but thats only a guide. depending on your height you can and should adjust it.

[Fudo-Shin]

On the same subject, I have always thought that maybe the idea of the hands is to guide the Ki into the hara. Symbolically at least.

No one has ever told me this but it seems to make sense.

Does Mokuso stem from Shinto?

And correction on my last post, the thumbs should form a straight line, lightly touching and the hands are ovalled.

[bullet08]

at the beginning of the practice, it's always left on top of right. at the end of practice, depends on how confused and tired i am, it might be left or right.. and half of the time, i really don't care to remember which is which.

pete

[Charlie]

Tagawa-sensei, hachidan, of Detroit, recently lectured on this same topic at an All-Michigan practice.

I don't think he specified hands (he may have) but I'm pretty sure sensei and everyone I know does left over right. But sensei also told us that the thumbs should be coming together and not touching, just a hair's breath from touching, in fact an electric feeling like, they're going to touch but you restrain them from touching. He said this, combined with half-lidded eyes and deep hara breathing through the nose, creates a sense of intense concentration that's good mokuso.

So, my two yen, I hope I have not mistakenly reported anything he said, this is from my memory and notes.

You know, while we're on the subject - it is a bit weird do do the deep breathing only through the nose. In yoga and other sports I was taught in through nose out through mouth. How do you guys do this? In kendo I was taught to press the tongue to the roof of the mouth.

[satsumaruma]

I tend to do it as per the Pic in Paikea's post but have seen some Sensei do something other than left over right or right over left and have wondered why they do it differently.

What I have seen is similar to the photo on this thread but both forefingers are 'curled up' to meet the thumbs - so it makes a 'binoculars' kind of shape if you get my meaning.

Does this mean something different or is it just another derivative of the same thing?

Lee

[Charlie]

I think that's specific to a particular school of meditation, Lee.

And a gang sign. Kidding!

[bullet08]

You know, while we're on the subject - it is a bit weird do do the deep breathing only through the nose. In yoga and other sports I was taught in through nose out through mouth. How do you guys do this? In kendo I was taught to press the tongue to the roof of the mouth.

i rarely have enough time to do the full thing.. depends on who's calling the mokuso, it might end before i can do full 3 breath.

i was tought to put my left hand on top of right hand. it has something to do with supporting the bad hand with good hand thing. sit and find the center. rock slightly from side to side, then front to back. once center is found, slightly tuck in the chin, and straighten the spine. don't close the eyes, but keep is slightly closed. look about 4 feet in front. breath deep into the stomach through the nose, and breath out with mouth as long as possible smoothly.

when i call mokuso, i try to do at least 5 cycle before calling yame.

pete

[satsumaruma]

I think that's specific to a particular school of meditation, Lee.

And a gang sign. Kidding!

Can cope with gang signs - just as long as is it isnt part of the Masonic Lodge Ryu:rolleyes:

Do you know what it means or represents?

[SmellsLikeBogu]

I usually let moksu last longer at the end of class then before.
in the end you can use it to reflect on all you've learned, accept it, close the book and clear your mind :) mokuso at beginning, at least for me, is shutting everything out, and opening the kendo book.

[Charlie]

Some dojo have really short mokuso. I like a long one myself.

Lee, sorry, I don't know what it means.

[rfachini]

I've always thought the right hand over left version could be related to the practice of always having the right leg be the last in and first out when putting on a hakama, or of having the right big toe over the left in mukuso (even better if they are side by side)- if you are attacked and have to use your katana, it's faster to do so when the right hand is on top.

[ZealUK]

http://www.univie.ac.at/rel_jap/bilder/mudra_daibutsu.jpg

If you mean that mudra, its usually associated with Amida Nyorai.

It represents the meditation of the historical buddha Shaka, but is mainly used in statues to differentiate between Amida and Dainichi Nyorai.

I haven't ever seen anyone meditating using that mudra. The sect most closely associated with Amida Nyorai only practices Nenbutsu, so I don't know if they use it or not.

[Po5i]

I heard that is about 8 breathings, near 30 seconds. In the initial mokuso, you forget everything in the world outside the dojo and focus in the training. In the final mokuso, you reconnect to the world and apply the learnings in your life.

A sensei told me if you don't do the final mokuso and you go out in the street you can cut someone with the katana (as a metaphor).

[DCPan]

thats ridiculous. where?

as for 40cm - thats what it says, but thats only a guide. depending on your height you can and should adjust it.

Somewhere AUSKF....:D

Wasn't there myself, but heard it from Marsten sensei....

[michaelm]

I remember being told that it's left over right.
It had something to do with the right hand being the active/yo/yang hand being restrained by the receptive/in/yin hand on top to facilitate emptying the mind during mokuso.

I only recall this because while being explained this, Sensei mentioned something about restraining the right hand because it does bad things--and all of us grown men with 12-year-old minds couldn't help but smirk and chuckle out loud during what should have been a serious lesson.

I'll be first to admit that my right hand does plenty of "bad" things.;)

[DCPan]

I'll be first to admit that my right hand does plenty of "bad" things.;)

What about the left-handed folks? :D