rules interpretation question

[Robobob]

Hi,
yesterday there was a big competition in our area and our team lost in the second round due to a strange situation. First, since some of the people who were there might read this, I want to make clear it´s not my intend to talk badly about the shinpan or our opponents or to accuse anyone or to argue that my team should have won. Actually the other team was very strong and odds were against us. It was very close then anyway and that´s why it was so frustrating what happend in the last seconds of the last fight. And that´s why I was thinking so much about it yesterday that I would like to hear your opinions.
Here´s what happend:
Last fight of five. If my taisho wins, we win, it he does hiki-wake, we lose. He is a nidan against a very experienced and high-leven rokudan (I believe). As I said, odds were against us. But then he managed to finally score a point, only seconds before the fighting-time should have been over. The fight started again and then something happend so that his men came half-way off. He moved back and lifted his hand to show he has a problem. Now several things happend nearly at the same time and there was a moment of confusion, so I can´t exactly say what happend in what order. He stood there, one hand liftet as a signal, the other fumbling on his men (which he should not have done till yamae and back in kamae...), the shimpan failed to say yamae immediatly, the opponent came running to him and striked a do, the shoshin liftet both hands and screamed "Yamae", one fukushin lifted the red flag to score the point, the other fukushin either said "no" or did nothing, I can´t tell.
So there was one red flag up and two "yamae-flags" up and the flags of the third one were down. There was a break, my friend put on his men and the shinpan went to the middle for gogi. They talked for a long time and by what you could tell from their body-language, it looked like the shoshin insisted on having stopped the fight. But at least one of the fukushin, maybe both, seemed to argue hardly against him, certainly stating that the fight was not over until the yamae was spoken aloud and that the do-strike was a split second before that and thus valid. Finally they moved back to their positions and the shoshin raised his red flag (while the others didn´t so we still don´t know who was the second one to grant the point) so it was hiki-wake now. The fight went on for only a few seconds and we lost.
Of course I was frustrated but first I thought: "the fight isn´t over until the shoshin says so, so it was legal to strike the do, my mate can´t stop the fight by lifting his hand, he can only show that he wishes to have it stopped."
But then a few more questions aroused.
1. There was only one red flag up. Who was the second one? My friends said, the other fukushin waved for "no", but I myself can´t remember. In that case the other opinion for yes must come from the shoshin, but he said yamae. He can´t do two things at a time, so what he did first must count as the first thing he intended, no? Shouldn´t they at least have shown again, who voted for the ippon, before granting it?
2. Can my teammate be punished for standing off guard when his bogu is not in place? He showed by raising his hand, what else can he do? He was a few meters away from the opponent who came running to him. There was a pretty long latency before the yamae to have all this happen.
3. Isnt´t there a failure from the shinpan to let this latency happen? If the shoshin was asleep, had it not been the duty of the fukushin (who saw the do, so definitly had his eyes open) to stop the fight? There was a risk of injury.
4. Since there was a risk of injury, was it correct for the opponent to attack? He realized that the shinpan failed to say yamae and noticed the chance. So far so good. But he also realized that our taisho had a bogu-problem, so can he leave the responsibility to the slow-reacting shinpan or does he have a responsibility himself - not to attack if there is a risk...?

Sorry for the long post but I think the details are important in this one. Thanks for your replies...

[Ignatz]

If it isn't one thing it's another goldang thing. Isn't that the Irish Curse (no the other one) "May you live in interesting times".
Bottom line, good for some grumbling over Guinness for a bit but the decision was the decision.
Tough break.

[Bokushingu]

Robobob, I hope i don't sound negative...

In my early 20's, when boxing was my love, I learned many personal things i brought to kendo. After my 6 months of training hard and plenty of sparring, me & 3 other fighters regersterd as novice in the US ameautur & was preparing to go to our first tourney. Our trainer told us something that i still believe in: Don't leave it to the judges! And if you do, realize that when you handed over your record book & stepped into the ring, you submited yourself to the jurisdiction of the judges. He then told us that judges are humans and everything ends up in a wash: you will have bad calls against you & you'll have bad calls for you--just accept it and get ready for the next match. Basically, my advice to you is not to worry. You will have bad calls for you but then you'll also have them made for you.

Wai wrote an interesting post(response) in the thread about cheering. that kind of pertains to this... see his post; it was beautiful.

Shiai, I have been told & have read, is to test yourself--not to win. The win would be the end result of your discipline. I also view this...it seems to me that yudanshas that have been training a good while(many years) believe that a point is the end result of 1 instance when most or all aspects of their waza performed was more perfect than their aite's waza--many of them have expressed that to me.

Please forgive me if i made incorrect kendo terminolgy.

I have been told by my sensei's & advanced yudanshas, "just go looking to do good kendo" So I plan to not look for a win but to excute discplined wazas against unknown Kendo-ist of my level & accept all judgements and not judge the judgements. i think you'll find tournys more enjoyable & informative no matter what the results.

[The great I AM]

Hi,
yesterday there was a big competition in our area and our team lost in the second round due to a strange situation. First, since some of the people who were there might read this, I want to make clear it´s not my intend to talk badly about the shinpan or our opponents or to accuse anyone or to argue that my team should have won. Actually the other team was very strong and odds were against us. It was very close then anyway and that´s why it was so frustrating what happend in the last seconds of the last fight. And that´s why I was thinking so much about it yesterday that I would like to hear your opinions.
Here´s what happend:
Last fight of five. If my taisho wins, we win, it he does hiki-wake, we lose. He is a nidan against a very experienced and high-leven rokudan (I believe). As I said, odds were against us. But then he managed to finally score a point, only seconds before the fighting-time should have been over. The fight started again and then something happend so that his men came half-way off. He moved back and lifted his hand to show he has a problem. Now several things happend nearly at the same time and there was a moment of confusion, so I can´t exactly say what happend in what order. He stood there, one hand liftet as a signal, the other fumbling on his men (which he should not have done till yamae and back in kamae...), the shimpan failed to say yamae immediatly, the opponent came running to him and striked a do, the shoshin liftet both hands and screamed "Yamae", one fukushin lifted the red flag to score the point, the other fukushin either said "no" or did nothing, I can´t tell.
So there was one red flag up and two "yamae-flags" up and the flags of the third one were down. There was a break, my friend put on his men and the shinpan went to the middle for gogi. They talked for a long time and by what you could tell from their body-language, it looked like the shoshin insisted on having stopped the fight. But at least one of the fukushin, maybe both, seemed to argue hardly against him, certainly stating that the fight was not over until the yamae was spoken aloud and that the do-strike was a split second before that and thus valid. Finally they moved back to their positions and the shoshin raised his red flag (while the others didn´t so we still don´t know who was the second one to grant the point) so it was hiki-wake now. The fight went on for only a few seconds and we lost.
Of course I was frustrated but first I thought: "the fight isn´t over until the shoshin says so, so it was legal to strike the do, my mate can´t stop the fight by lifting his hand, he can only show that he wishes to have it stopped."
But then a few more questions aroused.
1. There was only one red flag up. Who was the second one? My friends said, the other fukushin waved for "no", but I myself can´t remember. In that case the other opinion for yes must come from the shoshin, but he said yamae. He can´t do two things at a time, so what he did first must count as the first thing he intended, no? Shouldn´t they at least have shown again, who voted for the ippon, before granting it?
2. Can my teammate be punished for standing off guard when his bogu is not in place? He showed by raising his hand, what else can he do? He was a few meters away from the opponent who came running to him. There was a pretty long latency before the yamae to have all this happen.
3. Isnt´t there a failure from the shinpan to let this latency happen? If the shoshin was asleep, had it not been the duty of the fukushin (who saw the do, so definitly had his eyes open) to stop the fight? There was a risk of injury.
4. Since there was a risk of injury, was it correct for the opponent to attack? He realized that the shinpan failed to say yamae and noticed the chance. So far so good. But he also realized that our taisho had a bogu-problem, so can he leave the responsibility to the slow-reacting shinpan or does he have a responsibility himself - not to attack if there is a risk...?

Sorry for the long post but I think the details are important in this one. Thanks for your replies...As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong someone, by making the signal the shushin took himself out of the scoring equation, thereby leaving 2 refs, which means only one flag is needed to score (ie 1 of 2). The arguement may have been from the shushin on weather or not the point came before or after the ippon, but if he relented and said his yame came after the ippon then it would stand. Like I said though, I ain't the most experienced ref so I may be waaaaaay out.

As for the rest well I was taught and I teach that if you have to raise a hand then you get the hell out of dodge first. Also if he is adjusting his men in the middle of a fight instead of moving away, then that makes him fair game to me, hand up or not. And matey boy who hit him went for dou not men, though I can see your point about danger, but thats not really in the rules and is more a common sense thing.

Question is though, why didn't you ask the refs when all was over? I'm sure if you asked you would have got an answer.

[Robobob]

I think my friend actually did ask, but in the rush after the event I didn´t get to talk to him, so I was left with my thougths and passed them on to you...
I feel it is a matter of interpretation here, that´s why diffentent opions are interesting. I agree with everything Bokushingu said and I really am not a person who argues about referees decisions. At least usually. This one was actually much more frustrating than all the dozents of lost shiais I experienced before. So the modesty I try to achieve is harder to keep up here than usually. But more important, since I started performing as shimpan myself now, I wanted to get a feeling how others would decide in such a situation, what kind of decision would be appropriate, if someday I myself have to decide.

[AlexM]

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong someone, by making the signal the shushin took himself out of the scoring equation, thereby leaving 2 refs, which means only one flag is needed to score (ie 1 of 2).

This is incorrect: If one judge takes himself out of ruling then you still need two flags (50% is not ippon). If two judges declare that they renounce judgement then, and only then, do you need only one flag.

Did the shushin take himself out of the ruling or did he raise both flags in the air and say "yame"? It's not the same thing.

Bottom line, if there was only one flag (from what I understood) there should not have been ippon. More importantly, if the situation was so confusing there should not have been ippon. After awhile you can't just come back and say: there was point 30 seconds ago we forgot to give, we should give it now. Once the moment is gone it's gone.

[don_lubo]

if there was only one flag (from what I understood) there should not have been ippon. More importantly, if the situation was so confusing there should not have been ippon. After awhile you can't just come back and say: there was point 30 seconds ago we forgot to give, we should give it now. Once the moment is gone it's gone.

I agree with AlexM. Anyway can I ask for the names of the "very experienced and high-leven rokudan" and the shushin?

[jmarsten]

In a case like this it is hard to tell but based on what you have said .
1. If one of the fukushin called the point the other two shinpan must acknowledge the call by either affirming or not accepting the strike.
2. If the call was before the yame then the shushin would have had to make a decision during the gogi. So if I were the one calling the point, my case to the shushin would be. Was the point good or not in your opinion? If you believe it was yukodatotsu then we must award ippon. It would be then up to the shushin to accept or disagree. Sounds like all of them agreeded but they then should have all raised their flags when the point was awarded.

Regarding your taisho, of course it is the senshu's responsibility to protect themselves until the yame. Normally the shinpan would have already stopped because the men being pushed up is a safety hazard.

[The great I AM]

reffing bits.There you go! Thats why I do the fightin' and not the reffin'!

[Paburo]

normally it shouldn't be ippon as you describe it. but since the shinpan made the gogi and discussed it altogether, then i guess they either don't know the rules that well, or agreed.... and there's nothing much to discuss then.

sounds like they got confused when they needed to raise the flags, but after gogi agreed it was ippon. so all in all, looks like they agreed and made a commited desition.

now, i think your taisho will be a lot more careful before letting his guard down on further accounts.... it's a shame but you can never be too cautious in shiai... you might be injured, falling, blinded, but unless they call yame the fight is NOT OVER OR STOPPED.

[Kent Enfield]

He stood there, one hand liftet as a signal, the other fumbling on his men (which he should not have done till yamae and back in kamae...)Okay, I finally figured out what seemed off to me. How was he 1) lifting his hand as a signal and 2) fumbling with his men and 3) still holding his shinai at the same time? It sounds like he either didn't raise his hand, or raised it then immediately started using it to mess with his men, ignoring the fact that the match wasn't yet stopped and possibly disguising the fact that he raised his hand to ask for the match to be stopped.

I'm almost totally inexperienced as a shimpan, so I'll leave that side of it alone. However, as Gibbo wrote, if you have to raise your hand, you get to a safe distance, maintain a one-handed kamae, and back-peddle if necessary. "Protect yourself at all times" as they say elsewhere. And by the time you're nidan (heck, in my opinion, by the time you're doing shiai at all), you should be tying your men so that it doesn't come loose. No dislodged men, no such problem.

[ReKru]

Okay, I finally figured out what seemed off to me. How was he 1) lifting his hand as a signal and 2) fumbling with his men and 3) still holding his shinai at the same time? It sounds like he either didn't raise his hand, or raised it then immediately started using it to mess with his men, ignoring the fact that the match wasn't yet stopped and possibly disguising the fact that he raised his hand to ask for the match to be stopped.

I'm almost totally inexperienced as a shimpan, so I'll leave that side of it alone. However, as Gibbo wrote, if you have to raise your hand, you get to a safe distance, maintain a one-handed kamae, and back-peddle if necessary. "Protect yourself at all times" as they say elsewhere. And by the time you're nidan (heck, in my opinion, by the time you're doing shiai at all), you should be tying your men so that it doesn't come loose. No dislodged men, no such problem.

I was watching the fight and I think these things that seem a bit strange also caused the confusion.
His men didn't come lose (because of lightly tied himo), it was pushed over his chin during a pretty hefty tsuki (attempt). Our taisho raised his hand and the head shimpan called 'yame' and sent the competitors back to kamae.

At this point, there wasn't much of an issue.

I guess our taisho thought he would get some time to fix his (still slipped) men so he didn't go into 'proper defensive' Kamae and I think the shimpan didn't realize the men wasn't fixed yet (and usually when there's equipment issues, the shimpan double check if you're able to resume the fight), so he called 'hadjime'.

That surprised our taisho a bit, so he moved slightly back, raising his left hand as request to stop the fight and using his right hand (with shinai IIRC) to try and demonstrate that his men was lose.
Totally open for a do strike and probably not the best thing to do.

By the time the shimpan realized our taisho had issues and requested a break and called 'yame', the do strike was already performed and one of the shimpan had raised his flag.

The rest proceeded as described above.

[ReKru]

p.s. Next question - would you, in such an unclear situation- call Igi (file a protest) with the shimpan-sho?

[Paburo]

p.s. Next question - would you, in such an unclear situation- call Igi (file a protest) with the shimpan-sho?

i was told in the last shimpan-in seminar that the coach, and only the coach of the team and noone else, is authorised to go to the shimpan and file a formal protest/claim/clarification....

[ReKru]

i was told in the last shimpan-in seminar that the coach, and only the coach of the team and noone else, is authorised to go to the shimpan and file a formal protest/claim/clarification....

Hm. German Shiai rulebook states that the 'Betreuer' (Manager/Organizer) of the team is allowed to.

If you where in such a sh***y position, would you? :D

[Thunder]

Im going back to basics...(Not to attack anyone)

I put the fault on the Taisho who did not properly secure his men before stepping into the shiai.

I can understand the Mentengui slipping and needing readjustment....but for the entire Men to come halfway OFF the head?

From my point of view...that's where the fault lands for this whole event.

Judges are human, and we practice a split-second art...all it takes is one blink not to see the point.

[Paburo]

Hm. German Shiai rulebook states that the 'Betreuer' (Manager/Organizer) of the team is allowed to.

If you where in such a sh***y position, would you? :D

well, then i guess in this case coach/manager/organizer/betreuer mean the same...

if you ask me, then if i was the coach of that team i think wouldn't had argued with the shimpan after the gogi.

[MikeW]

I wouldn't argue the point or bring it to the shinpan-cho... as others have said it is up to the taisho to make sure he is in a defensive position until yame is called and the shiai is stopped regardless of what problems he/she is having with ther equipment. As Marsten sensei said it appears that during gogi the sushin decided that the point was valid as it happened before yame was called and he had not waved off the point originally thereby giving it a 2 to 1 decision for the point.

[Neil Gendzwill]

i was told in the last shimpan-in seminar that the coach, and only the coach of the team and noone else, is authorised to go to the shimpan and file a formal protest/claim/clarification....And such a complaint would be duly noted.

[Halcyon]

I guess our taisho thought he would get some time to fix his (still slipped) men so he didn't go into 'proper defensive' Kamae and I think the shimpan didn't realize the men wasn't fixed yet (and usually when there's equipment issues, the shimpan double check if you're able to resume the fight), so he called 'hadjime'.

That surprised our taisho a bit, so he moved slightly back, raising his left hand as request to stop the fight and using his right hand (with shinai IIRC) to try and demonstrate that his men was lose.
Totally open for a do strike and probably not the best thing to do.
Ah, now I see what happened. It would have been good if the shimpan had realized that your taisho needed to re-tie his men, but it seems the mistake belongs primarily to your taisho. After your taisho raised his hand the first time (after the tuski) and the shushin called "yame," your taisho should have made it clear to the shushin that he had to re-tie his men. The shushin may have thought that your taisho just needed to re-adjust it a little.

[Ignatz]

p.s. Next question - would you, in such an unclear situation- call Igi (file a protest) with the shimpan-sho?The manager may protest the application of the Referees before the end of the match (section 3, article 36) but there is no protest against the decision of the referees (section 3, article 35)

What does this mean?
I don't know but I think the rule is the decision of the referees is final, right or wrong. No, the decision of the referees is right because it is final. You don't have to like it or agree with it but you can't change it and should get over it as soon as possible (a little grumbling is ok in my mind)

[ReKru]

The manager may protest the application of the Referees before the end of the match (section 3, article 36) but there is no protest against the decision of the referees (section 3, article 35)

What does this mean?
I don't know but I think the rule is the decision of the referees is final, right or wrong. No, the decision of the referees is right because it is final. You don't have to like it or agree with it but you can't change it and should get over it as soon as possible (a little grumbling is ok in my mind)

Ahh.. there's a difference in the official shiai rules between AUSKF and DKenB here.
According to the DKenB rules (Chapter 2, article 29 and 36) , the Coach/Manager ('Betreuer') is allowed to protest if he does not agree with the shimpan's interpretation of the rules before the Sogo-no-rei at the end of the match.
We are germans after all - we love to file complaints :eek:

I suspect such protest would be 'duly noted'. :hurt:

[Charlie]

Sounds like shushin didn't realize taisho needed to retie men and by the time shushin called yame, the point had been struck. It's a tough break but, hey, it happens. I think the lesson is, if you have to adjust your equipment, then, as Gibbo said, get well away from your opponent and raise your (left?) hand to signal a halt.

[cesarekim]

* CAUTION * Dumb question * CAUTION *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to go to the start position, salute, take steps back to the edge of the shiai-jo and sit your ass down to fix stuff like this?

Sorry if the question is dumb but I thought any and all equipment issues save readjusting the tsuru on the shinai had to be done in seiza. Could also be our sensei telling us to do it that way to avoid situations such as the one described by Robobob...

[Robobob]

You´re right, sure. But you can´t do that, before the shimpan stop the fight and allow you to do so.
I see now, how perception is limited in such situations: I really can´t answer Kents question, maybe he did have three hands, one in the air, one on his men, one on his shinai? And I didn´t realize it happend the way ReKru described, with the fight being stopped and started again, I was to emotional in that situation... Another example for how hard it is to perceive everything you should. Another reason not to accuse the shimpan, which is not my intend in the first place, as I said.

[cesarekim]

What I meant was during the first stop of the match. In the second stop, there really is very little to say insofar as you probably want to get yourself out of Dodge City before putting yourself in a situation where you're at the mercy of your aite. I'd think it's always better to risk a hansokku for delaying the match than potentially losing a match. The last WKC comes to mind where people were fixing their men all the time but were explicitly stopping the match and sitting down.

Tense and emotional situations are where silly mistakes get made. I think that's why we have standing orders to sit ourselves down, fix the equipment and take a long breath to collect our wits before going back in.

YMMV....

[bullet08]

is there any current rule/judging book that i can view online for kendo? sorry for off topic question for this thread..

pete

[ReKru]

is there any current rule/judging book that i can view online for kendo? sorry for off topic question for this thread..

pete

The german rulebook can be found on www.dkenb.de. A similar one should be available on your national/regional federation's website.

I've "studied" it quite closely (need to get that 'Kampfrichterlizenz' this year), but in some points, it's still quite vague and leaves a lot for the shimpan to decide, so I guess interpretations of the rules that one doesn't necesarily agree with are something one has to live with.


What I meant was during the first stop of the match.

The first stop was not really a 'stop' .. yame was called, the competitors went in kamae at the starting position, hadjime was called .. maybe 3 seconds or so. No time to fix any equipment and the shimpan where probably not aware that our taisho needed to re-tie his men properly.

[Ignatz]

. . .so I guess interpretations of the rules that one doesn't necesarily agree with are something one has to live with. . .
Interpretation of the rules is the subject of a protest (igi) but a decision of the referees is not.
I take that to mean that things like size of the court, proper equipment etc, things of that nature are subject of igi. On the other hand, a decision to award ippon is not subject to protest.
This, I think, falls under the heading of reigi.
It is one of the things that sets kendo apart from things like soccer. While I think Kendo falls under the heading of "sport" it is set apart from the general idea of sports due to this.

[ReKru]

Interpretation of the rules is the subject of a protest (igi) but a decision of the referees is not.

That's a bit confusing, since the decisions of the referees (including those regarding yuko-datotsu) are based on their interpretation of the rules, aren't they?


This, I think, falls under the heading of reigi.
It is one of the things that sets kendo apart from things like soccer. While I think Kendo falls under the heading of "sport" it is set apart from the general idea of sports due to this.

Come on, Ignatz-san, I know you want electronic scoring devices and video-proof as much as I do :wink:

(just kidding here, I think it's good the way it is and would actually lose if you tried to 'improve' it ... 'fencing style')

[Neil Gendzwill]

The first stop was not really a 'stop' .. yame was called, the competitors went in kamae at the starting position, hadjime was called .. maybe 3 seconds or so. No time to fix any equipment and the shimpan where probably not aware that our taisho needed to re-tie his men properly.
If a competitor raises his hand, then the shimpan should ask him why. That's when you say "I need to retie my men". Also, if the men was that loose, the shimpan should have noticed it - safety of the contestants is his responsibility.

[cesarekim]

I'll go with Neil on this one. If yame is called and you go back to the starting positions, you aren't supposed to give 3 seconds of stop and then immediately call hajime without asking why you asked for the break in the first place. If nothing else, I'd immediately sheathe my shinai when I got to the start position. Of course, this is all relative and I've never been in Germany for a shiai so I don't know what the rules over there are...

[Robobob]

Rules should be the same here as anywhere, but even if not: the shoshin was a japanese nanadan...

[bluerecords]

.....only the coach of the team and noone else, is authorised to go to the shimpan and file a formal protest/claim/clarification....

hmmm...the coach of that team was not allowed to participate in that german club tournament, because he is a "really nasty bad person" who could have had bad influences on the 250 innocent participants and therefore being banned by the club's outstanding authorities, so Paburos option was not really one...:wink:

but if he would have been there an igi is an option, because as stated before, 50% flags are not enough. at least clarification should had been requested.

[Koki]

Personally, I think that point is crap. Yep, I did read through all the posts about interpretation of the rules. But that was the taisho match, and the winner was decided based on such a controversial call? It is not fair for the losing team.

Rules and regulations are one thing, but one of shimpan's responsibility is to ensure the fairness in competition.

Yesterday, we had shiai practice match at our dojo. I hit a hiki-men and going back, stopping by near by the line. My aite went forward and did a mune-tsuki pushing me out while i was bouncing in my zanshin. So the shimpan stopped the match and gave me a hansoku. I had no protest, of course. But then my head sensei stopped the match and asked the shimpan if that call was fair. He said I was in the corner, so there was no where for me to avoid the hit, and my aite, apparently, was trying to push me out rather than getting a tsuki. Just something to think about!

Good shimpan should be able to apply the rules fairly to the situations. Therefore, I think that call was crap!

[Ignatz]

hmmm...the coach of that team was not allowed to participate in that german club tournament, because he is a "really nasty bad person" who could have had bad influences on the 250 innocent participants and therefore being banned by the club's outstanding authorities, so Paburos option was not really one...:wink:

but if he would have been there an igi is an option, because as stated before, 50% flags are not enough. at least clarification should had been requested.
The plot thickens.:confused2
I'm going with Col. Mustard in the library with the candlestick.

Seriously, Neil raises a good point. The first time the person raised his hand and called time (and BTW, I have been told that raising your hand is not enough, you also have to call time, not in the rules but I have been told this more than once) and the shinpan called time, it becomes the obligation of the shinpan to determine why the person called time. (that is in the rules)
In any event, it is done and can't be undone. Bitch and moan over beer for a while then move on.

[JSchmidt]

Yesterday, we had shiai practice match at our dojo. I hit a hiki-men and going back, stopping by near by the line. My aite went forward and did a mune-tsuki pushing me out while i was bouncing in my zanshin.

Bouncing around is not zanshin and the hansoku call was correct.

[The great I AM]

Yesterday, we had shiai practice match at our dojo. I hit a hiki-men and going back, stopping by near by the line. My aite went forward and did a mune-tsuki pushing me out while i was bouncing in my zanshin. So the shimpan stopped the match and gave me a hansoku. I had no protest, of course. But then my head sensei stopped the match and asked the shimpan if that call was fair. He said I was in the corner, so there was no where for me to avoid the hit, and my aite, apparently, was trying to push me out rather than getting a tsuki. Just something to think about!I would argue that its your fault for being there in the first place, and if you had thought to not be there then it wouldn't have happened. Hansoku sounds perfectly fair to me. Awareness of where you are ni the shiaijo and being next to a line or not is a part of shiai, as is the related hansoku, like as not.

[bullet08]

Personally, I think that point is crap. Yep, I did read through all the posts about interpretation of the rules. But that was the taisho match, and the winner was decided based on such a controversial call? It is not fair for the losing team.

Rules and regulations are one thing, but one of shimpan's responsibility is to ensure the fairness in competition.

Yesterday, we had shiai practice match at our dojo. I hit a hiki-men and going back, stopping by near by the line. My aite went forward and did a mune-tsuki pushing me out while i was bouncing in my zanshin. So the shimpan stopped the match and gave me a hansoku. I had no protest, of course. But then my head sensei stopped the match and asked the shimpan if that call was fair. He said I was in the corner, so there was no where for me to avoid the hit, and my aite, apparently, was trying to push me out rather than getting a tsuki. Just something to think about!

Good shimpan should be able to apply the rules fairly to the situations. Therefore, I think that call was crap!

during the SEUSKF fall taikai, one of our dojo mate was being pushed to the line. at the very last moment, he did amazing foot work that invovled 180 degree turn and to the side at the very last moment causing the guy trying to pushing him out of the shiai-jo flying over the line.

i thought that was just lovely.

pete

[Neil Gendzwill]

My aite went forward and did a mune-tsuki pushing me out while i was bouncing in my zanshin.Mune-zuki is a bit tricky. It can be a shove, or it can be a tsuki that missed. If it's obviously a shove, that's illegal in and of itself, regardless of any issues with jogai. If it's an attack, then the penalty is legitimately yours.

I have been told that raising your hand is not enough, you also have to call timeThat's the first time I've ever heard that. I've always been told that you don't speak unless spoken to, so all you can do is raise your hand and wait for the yame.

[The great I AM]

That's the first time I've ever heard that. I've always been told that you don't speak unless spoken to, so all you can do is raise your hand and wait for the yame.Ditto .

[Ignatz]

Ditto .
Two nanadan told me to holler time so there is no confusion about what you want. No rule says you have to do it but it's like a belt and suspenders. No rule says you can't do it either.

[Halcyon]

No rule says you have to do it but it's like a belt and suspenders. No rule says you can't do it either.
You obviously have not been watching "What Not to Wear" on The Learning Channel. That's rule No. 1 on how to avoid being a fashion disaster.

[Ignatz]

You obviously have not been watching "What Not to Wear" on The Learning Channel. That's rule No. 1 on how to avoid being a fashion disaster.
Then there is the "Full Cleveland". White patent leather belt and shoes.:down: