Individual or Sheep?

[ScottUK]

I apologise for the title, but I thought something inflammatory would be fun.

Following on from the 'custom tenegui' thread...

What is your opinion on individuality in kendo/general budo? Is personalising equipment against the social norms of kendo? Is it better to not stand out but let your kendo speak your volumes for you? Is being an individual and having personal traits/features obvious to eveyone else in the dojo a good or a bad thing?

Me? I'm a creative, individual person who likes to buy more unusual items in general life, often customising them to my own tastes - but in the dojo I am quite the opposite... I kind of stand out enough without trying to be individual...!

All the best,

Scott

[groms]

This is an interresting question. I´m curious as to other people´s answers to this.
I´m also a creative person, and I enjoy personalizing much of my stuff. However, I think the subject is not as "black or white" as this post suggests. Most important, in my opinion, is the difference between customizing equipment for your own pleasure, and doing it for everyone else to see. Customizing doesn´t have to be " obvious to everyone else", as you put it.. There is a big difference having "metallica" tickers on your do and wearing red keikogi, as opposed to having a green tenugui, or writing your name on the shinai, or using pink tsuba, or embroidering a flower on tsukagawa (for those who´d like that...MAN, I sound like a girlie :) ). If it makes you appreciate your equipment more, and it´s not against your sensei´s wishes/regulations, I for one don´t see anything wrong with it.
Then again, if you do something obvious, I guess you´ll have to expect others to react, for better or worse (maybe even sensei´ll tell you to remove it, or complement on it).

I don´t like standing out, but I like the small, personal touches that maybe only I know about.

[bullet08]

I apologise for the title, but I thought something inflammatory would be fun.

Following on from the 'custom tenegui' thread...

What is your opinion on individuality in kendo/general budo? Is personalising equipment against the social norms of kendo? Is it better to not stand out but let your kendo speak your volumes for you? Is being an individual and having personal traits/features obvious to eveyone else in the dojo a good or a bad thing?

Me? I'm a creative, individual person who likes to buy more unusual items in general life, often customising them to my own tastes - but in the dojo I am quite the opposite... I kind of stand out enough without trying to be individual...!

All the best,

Scott

it took me long time to learn how to blend into the mass. sticking out while i was growing up meant getting beat up by local gangs after school. in order not to get into fight and all that mess, i learned early to blend in.

in dojo, i equip myself like the rest. black and blue. but i make sure to pick the tools of the game that will give me slight advantage... tho it never seems to help me much. i think i stand out for being really suck at kendo.

pete

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

I think it should just be down to how well you can take the slagging. When I am good enough not to give a toss, I am going to get a solid gold do - oh, and panda fur kote...

[MikeW]

I am individualistic in my personal and work life, but in kendo I prefer to stay traditional. I am not partial to showy stuff and about the most personalized I get are things that I know are there but do not show on the exterior much (like tenegui, my Do is signed by a manga-ka on the inside, stuff like that). I agree with Pete that buying yourself decent equipment also gives one an internal edge or individualism but isn't really too noticeable from the outside. It's mostly because I feel being humble in ones character and appearance is honorable and desirable, not because I am worried I will stick out and be pummeled ( I am pummeled quite often regardless ;) ).

[Hank]

I think too much emphasis is placed on image these days in general. I'm much more impressed with people's brains than their outside appearance. In fact, I'm far more likely to have an instantly negative opinion of someone who is flashy than one who is plain. I feel they're trying to make up for shortcomings in other areas. It's not something I can help - it just is.

But, hey, I'm a geek. I dress in plain old clothes and drive a plain old car. I have just about the plainest looking bogu you can buy - just black and blue and I wear the tenugui that come with my purchases and tourneys.

Hank.

[dwez]

I agree with groms it's not "black and white" I don't want to stand out but I don't want to be a sheep either. My gi is a faded home dye, and it was faded before it was given to me so I automatically stick out from the rest of my club.

I also have a Kenseikai Cornwall badge from my early training. I can't bear to remove it yet, although if my new club had sew on badges I would.

I also use do buttons as opposed to tieing the knot, that makes me stand out but I just want to get the thing on and not worry about knots coming undone.

These are just little things that set me apart not that I wish them to, it's useful though in that in such a short time I feel my contribution to the club has been appreciated. Having someone [even though I'm not even ikkyu] with four years experience drop on your doorstep can be useful especially with such a high proportion of beginners. The fact I stand out means my sensei can pick me out of a line up quicker than some of the other guys. It's an unwitting but beneficial side effect.

Additonally thinking about it having everyone so uniform is a real problem for me as if I fence people of similar builds I can't distinguish who I've been fencing. Trying to fence everyone becomes a problem as I can't remember who I've fenced which is embarrassing to me when I say I haven't but they clearly know they've fenced me. I'm having to really look at bogu to see for tell-tale differences. It's bad enough remembering names now it's down to 'wear and tear'.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I also use do buttons as opposed to tieing the knot, that makes me stand out but I just want to get the thing on and not worry about knots coming undone.Learning to tie your doh properly is part of kendo.

Additonally thinking about it having everyone so uniform is a real problem for me as if I fence people of similar builds I can't distinguish who I've been fencingThere are these magical, mystical things we have called "zekken". They have the names written right on them.

[Kenzan]

Me? I'm a creative, individual person who likes to buy more unusual items in general life, often customising them to my own tastes - but in the dojo I am quite the opposite... I kind of stand out enough without trying to be individual...!


To the author of this illegal communication; Otherwise classified as:
Organism #2901478-93A47KF954628.
RE:Official State Admonishment. (OSA)

ATTN: Cease this line of independent mental deviation at once.
Return to your work station in sector q-463, for resynchonization
-and speak no more of this thought disorder known as "individuality."
Further admonishments will result is biomass re-designation.

Warmest Regards,

83474HDF9894-G

[ScottUK]

Shut up Michiyo you sheep... :)

[D'Artagnan]

Flashy bougu is the only way forward! blending in is for cowards...

[Robobob]

The tengui thread got really annoying, but now it´s interesting again!
I agree pretty much with groms. There are small differences between the equipments anyway, even if they are not outstanding, the mune, the type of stitching and so on will differ. It is quite normal that you will take the one you like. So by buying one you like, you already put individualism in it. Most of the differences happen in a very small range of aberrations. I guess if you´d take an outstander, he´d say all kendoka look the same, even if there were some colored do´s or stuff like that.
It can get very emberassing if the individuality gets too far. But I agree that by picking the stuff you like and maybe customizing it in small aspects, it might bind you emotionally to the equipment and be extra motivation. I created a shinai-bag (the second one already) on my mother´s sewing-machine. I could have bought one, but now I have one that perfectly fits my taste and my needs. And I liked to spend my spare-time on kendo, even though I wasn´t practising...

[Airin]

As soon as I bought my shinai and bokken I wrote my name on them: I was afraid to lose them (once I was able to lose even a cheek-book, so the problem was real! :D ). I put them in a bag I sewed using a fabric in stripes red and yellow (just to be sure everyone will notice it) and wrote my name on it.
I sew the hakama by myself, but I really tried hard to do it like the other ones (save for the zip I sewed inside, but no one can see it when I wear the hakama). Then I embroidered a couple of tenougoui, because I like wearing embroidered stuffs even in dojo.
Really I've never thought before that maybe that wasn't good. :o
Anyway no one complain, so I guess it's all right. Or maybe they are just thinking those are the usual female oddities and so let go... :rolleyes:

[ScottUK]

Really I've never thought before that maybe that wasn't good. :o If you do something for a practical reason, that is good - as is making your own kit. If you make it to be different for the sake of it, then that is not so good.

[pgsmith]

Individual or Sheep?
Actually, I've been described as more cow-like myself! :)

I was told that, although Japanese society frowns on overt individuality, there is nothing wrong with making yourself stand out in the dojo. However, if you're going to stand out, you will be much more closely scrutinized by everyone. So, you better make sure you have the skills to justify standing out, or you'll look like an idiot.

[ben]

I think when it comes down to it customising things in relation to kendo so that you stand out is related to ego. We all do it, even in subtle ways. I write my name in kanji on my shinai handles, not in English. I love calligraphy, but I recognise that I also want to be a bit different. Even the sensei who said to me "Having your name on your hakama is for childen. It should be blank!" was guilty of an ego-driven decision to stand out, just in reverse.

And let's face it, if you do kendo outside Japan or Korea, you're wanting to do something different to everyone around you, so no matter how much you try to conform in the dojo and be without ego, the fact that you do kendo sets you apart already. Like my Zen teacher told me once: "The ego is harder than diamond, almost impossible to crush!"

OTOH I think the fact that everyone wears a pretty strict uniform makes their individuality stand out even more. That is, their real individuality: how they stand, how they move, how their body is put together. And then by extension you can start to see what kind of person they are from how they do their kendo. I'm more interested in that stuff than hair colour or number of tattoos/piercings.

b

[Alison2805]

I don´t like standing out, but I like the small, personal touches that maybe only I know about.

I agree with you!

But I love my white bogu. I love it and hug it and call it george. :silly:

[ahmed61086]

I think fancy bogu/tenugui or whatever else is useless. Not that I am for the conformist Idea, but because now, that I have traveld around a little bit. And seen a lot of different peoples kendo, I dont look at the bogu, or the color of the dogi. I look at their posture and their technique, kamae, ect. And I can usually spot who is fighting just by these. Personal kendo style that has nothing to do with acessories or color. Some people will automatically stand out more than others.

Also, I stand out enough just not being Korean/japanese. I dont need anything else.

[Kenzan]

I know this thread was not meant to be so serious, so excuse the following rant please:

Next big thing in Kendo:

"Signature moves after Ippon."

You know, like, the Electric Slide,
Moonwalk, or hey, whatever floats your fancy!

In fact, I move that we should just do away with uniformity all together, and allow everyone to wear any color Bogu or (football/Mad Maxx/Jason mask/Halloween/Ninja costume) to class... you know, for extra style points in the annual Dojo fashion-show parade!

All I know is I train to learn.
Personally, I could give a rats'- left testicle how I my "individuality" is displayed, because i'm not there to give a *%$#$%# interpretive dance recital, I'm there for learning Kendo!
:cat:

*I have several cheap, serviceable hand-made Tenugui which bleed ink, and is leaking who-knows-what chemicals into my brain when I sweat.
*I have ONE heavily blood and sweat stained Cotton Uwagi,
and ONE Polyester Hakama.
*.I have the best Bogu I could afford from Eiguchi. It works like a charm.

*..In fact I too am fond of my Bogu......I call it "stinky".
:D

[ahmed61086]

"Kenzan has a spectalcular aura about them"



You see kenzan, even the forum refers to you with the royal plural. :shocked:

[Kenzan]

"Kenzan has a spectalcular aura about them"
:shocked:

Spectacular Aroma....if anything.

[Masahiro]

my sensei said to me once, "u can have as pretty of bogu/uniform as you want, just make sure your kendo is prettier".

hahahahahaha, sigh!:disapp:

[xvikingx]

I wouldn’t necessarily say that flash is non-existent with people in Japan as it has been suggested here and other threads, but for the most part it is more subtle. There are also others who are not so subtle. Conformity is a huge part of Japanese society, being part of “the group” is a big deal and it turns up in every little fold in life here. Even things that may seem like bold individualism to visitors, like crazy fashion and hair, isn’t really individualism because the majority of the people in that age group are dressed the exact same way. So comparing flash here and elsewhere, and the attitude towards it is really a culture call.
I’m foreign, I have tattoos, I act differently; this has drawn attention to me briefly, but that passed quickly. I have always been treated fairly and as one of “the group”. This however was not always been the case in the United States, where sometimes it was quite the opposite, and it was usually from those who believed that that is the way it’s done in Japan and try to emulate this misconception that individualism is shunned. If a guy comes in with some fancy golden dragon do and has it tied up with buttons he’s are going to look like a dork, but should it really be a problem? Teach him how to tie his do properly and guide him as long as he is serious. He will come around on his own, but probably come to dislike kendo if treated poorly.
Scott asked if it is against the social norm, but what is the social norm? The Japanese social norm? If so should that apply to society outside of Japan?
D’Artangan posted some pics of his new kit and it is (tastefully) flashy, but it is also cool. That’s his flavor and I wouldn’t bust his balls for it.
That’s just my opinion.

[Kuma]

My main problem here is with the judgmental tone - the "good," "bad," right," "wrong" statements. Can anyone logically justify their rigid, personal concept of what is or is not kendo? We can't even do so historically, can we? Do any of us do kendo exactly as it was practiced at its inception? Should we? In this narrow view of what is "good" or "bad" kendo based on non-adherence to the strictest standards of appearance, couldn't we also condemn those who use materials that are non-traditional (plastic, man-made fibres, etc.)? I know about the functionalily argument, but one could stretch that argument to justify just about any non-standard equipment.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It seems that this all really comes down to doing what you'd like within the bounds of acceptability in regards to your sensei/dojo, but be aware that anything that sets you visibly apart will cause some with rigid, traditional leanings to take the piss out of you. Proceed at your own risk.

I'm not trying to be the nail that sticks out. I'm just proposing that the motivations of those who enjoy hammering down said nails with vigor and spite are perhaps not wholly justifiable.

In addition, is there a reason (or is it even possible) to try to maintain every aspect of the japanese culture and society that gave rise to our beloved art? Another point for discussion, I suppose. I mean, is there this kind of debate within western swordfighting? Do people worry about not being genuinely [insert culture of choice] in [martial art from a western society]? Because obviously, this is indicative of the culture clash between japanese traditionalism versus the western drive to distinguish ourselves as individuals.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I wouldn’t necessarily say that flash is non-existent with people in Japan as it has been suggested here and other threads, but for the most part it is more subtle. There are also others who are not so subtle. Conformity is a huge part of Japanese society, being part of “the group” is a big deal and it turns up in every little fold in life here. Even things that may seem like bold individualism to visitors, like crazy fashion and hair, isn’t really individualism because the majority of the people in that age group are dressed the exact same way. So comparing flash here and elsewhere, and the attitude towards it is really a culture call.
I’m foreign, I have tattoos, I act differently; this has drawn attention to me briefly, but that passed quickly. I have always been treated fairly and as one of “the group”. This however was not always been the case in the United States, where sometimes it was quite the opposite, and it was usually from those who believed that that is the way it’s done in Japan and try to emulate this misconception that individualism is shunned. If a guy comes in with some fancy golden dragon do and has it tied up with buttons he’s are going to look like a dork, but should it really be a problem? Teach him how to tie his do properly and guide him as long as he is serious. He will come around on his own, but probably come to dislike kendo if treated poorly.
Scott asked if it is against the social norm, but what is the social norm? The Japanese social norm? If so should that apply to society outside of Japan?
D’Artangan posted some pics of his new kit and it is (tastefully) flashy, but it is also cool. That’s his flavor and I wouldn’t bust his balls for it.
That’s just my opinion.

This seems to be a reasonable balance to me.

My teacher makes his own shinai, and has tsuba custom-ordered from a manufacturer of synthetic materials. They start off almost transparent with a green tint, then as you use them the green colour becomes progressively deeper. I got one that he had been "seasoning" for a year or so and often get asked what on earth it is if I use it at other dojo. Some people might think it odd, but for those of us who have them it's some kind of strange membership badge. Even if everybody on this forum thought it was stupid I would still use it with pride.

Personally, I can't really see why people shouldn't be encouraged to spend time outside of practice deepening their connection with kendo. Maybe they'll make some weird decisions early on, but just as their kendo gradually straightens itself out, then so will their fashion sense.

Oh, and since everyone seems to consider this an integral issue, the teacher I know who makes his own stuff has excellent kendo. At least, the fact that he has won the All Japan Championships twice would lead me to believe so.

[Kuma]

Yeah, well put, xvikingx. I took, like, twenty minutes composing my post, when I should have just waited a second and read yours. Ah well. What's done is done.

[cesarekim]

My sensei is a strong believer in having clean and well maintained uniforms and bogu, especially when outside our home dojo. Having said that, he appears to have a very standard black do. If you look at it carefully, you'll notice that it has dark red highlights. I think it's his one concession to individuality. Subtle but very intriguiing.

[Hank]

Can anyone logically justify their rigid, personal concept of what is or is not kendo? I was in a class where a high ranking east-coast sensei pretty much said, at the end of class, "don't stand out fashion-wise unless you're high-ranking." That was good enough for me. All arguments about it have been moot from that point on, as far as I'm concerned.

[Kuma]

I was in a class where a high ranking east-coast sensei pretty much said, at the end of class, "don't stand out fashion-wise unless you're high-ranking." That was good enough for me. All arguments about it have been moot from that point on, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I knew that someone was gonna say that. Any reason why this should not be discussed, then? Don't you have any thoughts on this? I mean, we aren't in military service; we can question our superiors for clarification. I know that if your sensei says not to do something, you don't do it or find another dojo. This doesn't need to be reiterated. I would like to see some discussion on this, though.

[Hank]

Don't you have any thoughts on this? Yeah. You must have missed my earlier post in this very thread about image in general. I can distill it down for you - I think people who try to express their individuality through fashion and image are shallow. It's a prejudice of mine.

And Ben said earlier that if we weren't in Japan or Korea, then we're doing kendo to do something different from those around us, and to subsequently stand out. Personally, I started it to get experience in something different to me, and I fell in love with it. I wish everyone else around me did kendo. It's embarrassing when the topic of hobbies comes up at dinner parties because most people think what we do in kendo is a little strange, especially when you're not Asian.

[Masahiro]

maybe when you are above godan, you are able to pretty much back up whatever "fashioin" statement you make with equally (if not better) kendo.

[cesarekim]

...
And Ben said earlier that if we weren't in Japan or Korea, then we're doing kendo to do something different from those around us, and to subsequently stand out. Personally, I started it to get experience in something different to me, and I fell in love with it. I wish everyone else around me did kendo. It's embarrassing when the topic of hobbies comes up at dinner parties because most people think what we do in kendo is a little strange, especially when you're not Asian.

Hell, I'm Korean and am married to a Korean gal. My mother in law gives me really funny looks sometimes and asks me if i still do that funny Japanese sport. She then theatrically sniffs around and says, "ah I guess you still do..." She's sweet but sometimes she can be a real pain in the tush....

[Kuma]

I think people who try to express their individuality through fashion and image are shallow. It's a prejudice of mine.

So are you saying that if anyone expresses their individual tastes through outward appearances, they must be shallow? Who would you have dictate our personal style for us? Big Brother? Should we all have gray coveralls and crew cuts? Who wold want to live in a world like that? And who can judge what is far enough outside the "norm" to be considered individual?

That just seems like a silly, judgmental statement to me. I know that you said that it was just a prejudice, and I agree, but why judge anyone based on outward appearances, or proclaim such clearly subjective standards as to how you decide whether someone is shallow before you've even spoken to them? Doesn't kendo help us to understand that merit should not be decided on appearance, but substance? This does not preclude considering appearance, as we all strive to put forth a well-groomed, well-cared-for appearance for both ourselves and our equipment, but why should the standards of caring for kendo equipment be the only thing that one can consider regarding appearance. I consider well-applied eyeliner to be a mark fo personal pride in my appearance as I find that my partner prefers the way I look in eyeliner. Does that make me shallow, that I consider my attractiveness to my mate a point of concern?

[hyuna]

In my opinion, we go to kendo practice to practice kendo. So, if we are going to stand out for some reason, it should be because of our kendo.

And we do stand out because of our kendo -- even without zekken, it is easy to identify someone you know. Everyone's kiai and form is different.

Not that there is anything wrong with customization, per se -- it is useful to be able to identify which shinai and bogu is yours without careful inspection, after all -- but practice is not show & tell or some kind of fashion show. So, to me, customization shouldn't be so much as to draw attention.

[cesarekim]

...I consider well-applied eyeliner to be a mark fo personal pride in my appearance as I find that my partner prefers the way I look in eyeliner. Does that make me shallow, that I consider my attractiveness to my mate a point of concern?

Eyeliner??? How do you keep that crap out of your eyes during keiko? I remember camoflage paint being a real stinger when it got into your eyes. Is eyeliner neutral?

Sorry for the drift but this really caught my eye (no pun intended)...

[Kenshi]

But I love my white bogu. I love it and hug it and call it george. :silly:

Good name!

There is def plenty of flash stuff over here in Japan, and it seems to be getting flasher. Bogu sellers are working in a - what seems to be - saturated and thus highly competitive market... with dwinldling numbers of customers. Thats why weve seen an increasing amount of bogu-sellers opening stores abroad or having English language websites or catalogues. It also sees them diversify in what the sell.

I think kendo fashion over here in Japan for individuals is seen in not so much bogu and dogi, but in the accessories....shinai bags and tenugui primerally. Next is tsuba and men-chigawa. I think the latter will get more funky in the next few years as younger people grow up... cos the kids are mad with the men-chigawa.

Personally, for a change, I rotate my men-chigawa, and occassionally buy a new shinai bag... I let my kendo speak for the rest of my individuality!!!!

[Kuma]

Sorry for the drift but this really caught my eye (no pun intended)...

Oh, no. I fully intended to bring this kind of thing into the discussion, particularly because I think that much of this may also be rooted in gender stereotypes and the double standards with which we judge male/female appearance. My wife and I were just discussing this a moment ago and she brought up the fact that kendo was developed by men from a culture that historically demanded much more of women's appearances than of men's as far as desirability goes. Now, I know that I am treading in dangerous territory, so keep in mind that I am only exploring and not pushing any kind of opinions or agenda. I only think that it may be helpful in understanding the basis of our preconceptions about appearance in kendo to consider our criteria for appearance outside the dojo.

So yeah, I get lots of compliments from women on my eyes when I wear eyeliner, but that's not why I wear it, as I couldn't care less what others think of my appearance (besides my wife). Primarily it's because I find my own appearance more pleasing when wearing it, and secondarily because my wife finds it quite fetching as well. I don't over do it so it's not super noticable, I have worn it to practice, and no, it's never been an issue with getting it in my eyes. But then, I suppose that may be due to what I was saying about taking pride in applying it well.:wink:

Anyway, if while reading my above post you found yourself thinking, "Yeah! Crew cuts and grey coveralls rock!" then I would like to ask if you would find that an attractive look on your potential mate. Then consider if you think that they would find it so on yourself. If this doesn't matter to you, why doesn't it? Just a little exercise to help me better understand the thinking behind this curious discussion, because "my sensei said so" isn't doing it for me.

[Hank]

So are you saying that if anyone expresses their individual tastes through outward appearances, they must be shallow? Who would you have dictate our personal style for us? Big Brother? Should we all have gray coveralls and crew cuts? Who wold want to live in a world like that? And who can judge what is far enough outside the "norm" to be considered individual?

That just seems like a silly, judgmental statement to me. I know that you said that it was just a prejudice, and I agree, but why judge anyone based on outward appearances, or proclaim such clearly subjective standards as to how you decide whether someone is shallow before you've even spoken to them? Doesn't kendo help us to understand that merit should not be decided on appearance, but substance? This does not preclude considering appearance, as we all strive to put forth a well-groomed, well-cared-for appearance for both ourselves and our equipment, but why should the standards of caring for kendo equipment be the only thing that one can consider regarding appearance. I consider well-applied eyeliner to be a mark fo personal pride in my appearance as I find that my partner prefers the way I look in eyeliner. Does that make me shallow, that I consider my attractiveness to my mate a point of concern?You ask so many questions. Ok, here goes. 1)Easy answer: yes. 2)No one. 3)No. 4)Would make things a heck of a lot easier for me. 5)I don't know. 6)Irrelevant.

Ok, next paragraph. 1)We prejudge everyone, everyday, on outward appearances and many other factors. In fact, one who dresses flashily would want to be prejudged, only positively, no? 2)Yes, so why dress flashily? 3)Because you shouldn't stand out. 4)You may not be shallow, but if you roll up next to me in a pimped-out Escalade, sporting a yellow mohawk and multiple eyebrow piercings, I'm going to prejudge you as being more concerned with appearance than other things and to be, therefore, a bit shallow. It's just the way it is. Oddly enough, my wife doesn't own any makeup. It's not why I married her, but it must have helped.

[xvikingx]

- I think people who try to express their individuality through fashion and image are shallow. It's a prejudice of mine.
Well at least you admit it. Does this prejudice extend to those with high rank? If not why? If you feel so strongly against standing out and individualism why should your convictions change with rank? Not just Hank but to all of those who regurgitate the “your skill should stand out as much if not more than your gear” line. I see that conformity in kendo goes beyond ones gear but it is also prevalent in the way people think. You see it here often, when someone writes something that is not in accordance with “the norm” this person is flamed to death (I’m also guilty of this).


we're doing kendo to do something different from those around us, and to subsequently stand out.
I don’t think Ben was saying that those in non-Asian countries do kendo to be different, but that we already happen to be different because we do kendo.

[Hank]

Does this prejudice extend to those with high rank? If not why? If you feel so strongly against standing out and individualism why should your convictions change with rank? Not just Hank but to all of those who regurgitate the “your skill should stand out as much if not more than your gear” line. I see that conformity in kendo goes beyond ones gear but it is also prevalent in the way people think. You see it here often, when someone writes something that is not in accordance with “the norm” this person is flamed to death (I’m also guilty of this).


I don’t think Ben was saying that those in non-Asian countries do kendo to be different, but that we already happen to be different because we do kendo.I was talking about outside kendo, actually. But, no it doesn't extend to those of high ranks. It's like a king who gets to wear a crown. Don't get me wrong - I covet the same do. And I am all for individuality. I consider my views on many issues quite non-conformist. All I am saying is that, outside kendo, I'm wary of flashy, botoxed, boob-jobbed, peroxided, blinged-out, pec-implanted, low-riding people, as my experience has been that their thinking is quite different from mine. Inside the dojo, I just listen to what my teachers tell me, because kendo is really about kendo, not what you're wearing.

[Kenshi]

I don’t think Ben was saying that those in non-Asian countries do kendo to be different, but that we already happen to be different because we do kendo.

When i was practising kendo in europe and america no one would bat an painted eyelid at my vegetarianism, but would wonder why the hell i would want to practise kendo. In Japan no one asks why i practise kendo, but i get the "wtf are you vegetarian?" over and over again (relentlessly). I cant win.

But Viking makes a briliant comment here -- some people who tend to do kendo in the west are doing so because it looks cool and its different. Its usually (or it was when I started) an activity for those that thought themselves different, or who wanted to be different. In Japan, there are a lot of right-wingers in kendo, a lot of them..... I never see long haired, guitar playing, tatooed, nipple ring sporting, black nailpolished, eyelinered guys doing kendo here. Never.

Out of that last list the I have never gotten tatooed nor pierced. I was about to get a tatoo when a very senior koryu person said to me "get one and I will never introduce you to my sensei in Japan, never" ... and I signed the release form to get a piercing in said area but never went through with it due to worries about continuing kendo (which I was doing 4times a week back then). The rest of the stuff pettered out naturally (hair) or because of kendo.

Apart from some men-chigawa im pretty much the Model-Kenshi here in Japan. Not being Japanese gives me as much individuality as I need!!!

[xvikingx]

I personally am not one for flash. I don’t like clothing with logos, or chromed out cars, and I don’t want my kit to scream check me out. Like Kenshi said being foreign is enough individuality out here.

kendo is really about kendo, not what you're wearing.
I totally agree and that is why I couldn’t care less about what the other guy is wearing.
Like I said in an earlier post this is just my opinion.

[mingshi]

Sounds to me it's the same old debate on uniform and school rules...

Did you wear uniform when you were at school?

I did - not just the clothing itself, but also there are standards/ rules on hair length, sock length, skirt length, shoe colour, etc. etc.

My school was damn strict on this and people were wearing Dr Martens with yellow stitiches rubbed black (since only black shoes were allowed).

But then there are also those who like their elephant-leg socks, colouring their hair, wearing cool wrist watches, carrying classy school bags. No rules on that.

I'd say it's all up to the individuals. It's not wrong to be or look different.


kendo is really about kendo, not what you're wearing.

Replace "life" with "kendo" and you'll get the same thing.

Then if what you are wearing doesn't matter, flashy and plain are essentially the same thing. What's the argument about?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I propose a different reason than any yet seen in this thread for individuality being discouraged in kendo. It's very simple: most of the people that are at the summit of the kendo world today grew up in a Japan that was dirt poor. I was having dinner with an instructor the other day and he was telling me how moved he was watching a documentary about kids in India who were completely devoted to getting a good education, even though the roof of their school was full of leaks and their books would get soaked whenever it rained. The reason he found this particularly moving was that it reminded him of how things were in Japan when he was growing up. It might be hard to believe when you look at how Japan is at the moment, but after the second world war it was in a terrible condition, and even before then was not comparable to Europe or North America in terms of material wealth. Especially after the war, wearing flashy gear would mean that you were spending extra money on what was effectively an unnecessary luxury while people were in extreme straits around you. Before the ban on kendo was lifted (of course, people still practiced in various secret spots) there were people who were dying of starvation. How could spending extra money or other resources on kendo be considered anything but scandalous?

That's just my own idea, it's not based on any kind of research or even discussions that I've had with anybody.

[xvikingx]

most of the people that are at the summit of the kendo world today grew up in a Japan that was dirt poor

That’s a great thought. I didn’t think of it in that way at all. That would make for a very interesting study.

[cesarekim]

Anyway, if while reading my above post you found yourself thinking, "Yeah! Crew cuts and grey coveralls rock!" then I would like to ask if you would find that an attractive look on your potential mate. Then consider if you think that they would find it so on yourself. If this doesn't matter to you, why doesn't it? Just a little exercise to help me better understand the thinking behind this curious discussion, because "my sensei said so" isn't doing it for me.
Kuma,
I would personally love a crew cut and coveralls. Life would be a lot more convenient considering I work in a steel mill and should have a hard hat on all the time. Unfortunately, I no longer do much hands on stuff so I have to wear "business" clothes... My wife hates it when I wear either of the above so I have no choice in the matter. I'm whipped...

I'm not a good example as far as indivdualism is concerned. I'm your basic Korean office drone. I only own grey and blue suits. 95% of my shirts are white (the rest are light blues). All my dress shoes are black... The reason for the above is that I used to be a consultant and, for a while, even had a dress code to adhere to. When working in a business environment, you want to be as close as possible to what the client expects his consultants to dress, talk and behave. It's the price to pay to do business....

What my sensei has told me is that no one should be judged by their kit or their uniform at the lower grades and at the highest grades. The former may not know any better and this is more an issue with their sempai, the latter transcend the rules as they create them. Now, as far as the peons in the middle are concerned, conform or die!:D

[Fudo-Shin]

I propose a different reason than any yet seen in this thread for individuality being discouraged in kendo. It's very simple: most of the people that are at the summit of the kendo world today grew up in a Japan that was dirt poor. I was having dinner with an instructor the other day and he was telling me how moved he was watching a documentary about kids in India who were completely devoted to getting a good education, even though the roof of their school was full of leaks and their books would get soaked whenever it rained. The reason he found this particularly moving was that it reminded him of how things were in Japan when he was growing up. It might be hard to believe when you look at how Japan is at the moment, but after the second world war it was in a terrible condition, and even before then was not comparable to Europe or North America in terms of material wealth. Especially after the war, wearing flashy gear would mean that you were spending extra money on what was effectively an unnecessary luxury while people were in extreme straits around you. Before the ban on kendo was lifted (of course, people still practiced in various secret spots) there were people who were dying of starvation. How could spending extra money or other resources on kendo be considered anything but scandalous?

Ohh man...you made me think of that animation "Grave of the Fireflies". I almost had a teary.

But I agree ...nice viewpoint.

Subtle customisations that are within the norm I think are OK...such as the all black inside the men (no red) like the guy was wearing in the last AJKC. Can't remember who...might have been the winner, can't remember his name.

[ScottUK]

I personally am not one for flash. I don’t like clothing with logos, or chromed out cars, and I don’t want my kit to scream check me out. Like Kenshi said being foreign is enough individuality out here.I am BIG into 'inward flash' but not 'outward flash'.

I am heavily tattooed (hehe the designer mentality) around the upper back and top of my arms, but no-one gets to see that unless I allow it. They are hidden even if I wear a teeshirt - my tattoos are for me.

I like nice clothes, but I only wear them when I go out somewhere nice with the mrs. Everyday clothes (work, out with my friends etc) is usually polo shirt & jeans. No flash, no jewellery. I have a nice gold chain which I received many years ago as a gift from my mom & dad, but I only wear it under a shirt and not on display like many do.

Kendo - I have a nice 2/3mm bogu, black do etc and I blitz around the dojo like a rhino (with the same skill level) having the time of my life. I have a lovely do with a massive mon from the Kage-ryu on it (a present from Hyaku) but it is too flash for me to wear at my level. Maybe in a few years I will venture out with it. The same goes for technique. As much as I would love to do nito, I feel that there is a time and a place for such flash - and today ain't it.

Iai - My iai is coming on quite nicely. Only 25 more years until I am able to claim some level of mastery (hehehe). I am 6'5", wear a white gi and stand out like a sore thumb. In Japan I stand out much worse. Do I enjoy that? No, I hate being centre of attention - but iai shiai is helping me battle that. If I didn't wear white, I would stand out less, but I like a white gi and it IS allowed. I wouldn't wear floral-patterned keikogi/kimono with matching hakama like some low-dan-graded people I have saw. Maybe when I am hachidan... :)

[bullet08]

the fact that we are doing kendo means that we are following a certain tradition. and every tradition has its own set of rules that must be followed in order to keep that tradition alive. otherwise, that tradition will change and it will no longer be the same tradition any longer. then again.. i'm not sure if our black and blue set up is part of tradition, or something that everyone just adapted to since that was the only thing that was available from the vendors..

having said that, i really don't care what other people wear to the dojo. it's not my place to tell others if their yellow and black bee stripe do is too much for me.. if i ever get to be good enough to teach, then yes. i might have something to say.. like.. 'do you remember killer bees from SNL back in 70's?' if answer is no, they can't wear their yellow and black bee stripe do...

pete

[Newbie]

The natural indigo dye reduces bruising. That's why it's uniform for kendo and jodo. Though we can't all always get indigo, the dark blue chemical dye is the closest in colour.

[bullet08]

The natural indigo dye reduces bruising. That's why it's uniform for kendo and jodo. Though we can't all always get indigo, the dark blue chemical dye is the closest in colour.

you sure it reduces it? not just hide it by making people look like smurf?

pete

[JSchmidt]

The natural indigo dye reduces bruising. That's why it's uniform for kendo and jodo. Though we can't all always get indigo, the dark blue chemical dye is the closest in colour.

There's no difference in the amount of bruising I get, whether I wear white or indigo. Sounds like a myth to me.

[Newbie]

Sorry, tis meant to have antiseptic properties. I think I heard the bruising thing first and always get mixed up which is the myth and which is the actual. But I reckon you're right and the bruising thing is myth. Sorry (heh, maybe it hides the bruises cos it's the same colour ;) )

[ReKru]

it took me long time to learn how to blend into the mass. sticking out while i was growing up meant getting beat up by local gangs after school. in order not to get into fight and all that mess, i learned early to blend in.

I've grown up in a pretty similar situation. Early childhood/teenage time was pretty bad - always being the alien, the new guy, the strange guy, drawing all sorts of unwanted attention (usually of the negative kind) is not really much fun.
I like to blend in .. I was master at dodgeball .. not because I was fast/agile, but the other team usually never noticed I'm there at all - secrit ninjer technique .. Dead Duck Ryu :devious:

I still kinda like people with the unstoppable urge to stand out. They don't know any better .. they'll just never know how it is to really stand out. :hurt:


i think i stand out for being really suck at kendo.


I've recently seen some videos of me in shiai - despite of 2 hours unindexed videofile, bad quality/low light/ unreadeable zekken / 5 guys of similar size, I knew immediatly which one I was .. The horror :rolleyes:

[Hank]

Inside the dojo, I just listen to what my teachers tell me, because kendo is really about kendo, not what you're wearing.



Replace "life" with "kendo" and you'll get the same thing.

Then if what you are wearing doesn't matter, flashy and plain are essentially the same thing. What's the argument about?Why didn't you (or xvikingx) quote the first part of the above sentence? Oh, I know why - because taking it out of context makes it easier to twist.

I personally don't care about people's tenugui, or even their do. I know low-level people who have somewhat flashy do, and they're great still great people. However, I once practiced with a very low level guy who had to be in his late 20s and was wearing a musashi dogi, striped hakama and a karate headband thingy along with a cocky aura. My first instinct was "wannabe samurai" and I had a lowered opinion of him. Are you saying that you'd be totally cool with this guy and have no preconceived notions at all? If so, you've reached a higher level than I have.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

The natural indigo dye reduces bruising. That's why it's uniform for kendo and jodo. Though we can't all always get indigo, the dark blue chemical dye is the closest in colour.

wont help bruising.
but the indigo dye(the original kind) has a disinfecting effect. so if you get scratches or wounds, it would be disinfected by te dye.
Or so Ive heared. also a reason why it bleeds so heavely when new.

[dwez]

Learning to tie your doh properly is part of kendo.
There are these magical, mystical things we have called "zekken". They have the names written right on them.

Well I could tie them properly before I got the buttons but for convenience and assurance they won't come undone I'm more comfortable with them. One less thing to worry about during practice. My sensei has already pointed out to the rest of the class that in Japan they would say to me they are for children only [and probably laugh in my general direction no doubt] but said it was OK if I wished to use them.

As for zekken, yes that's true, they help me identify all the dan grades in the club but their builds are so different I wouldn't need them. The remaining 10+ members without zekken but in armour - well there's some similar builds that have exactly the same hakama and gi and identification is a problem.

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

wont help bruising.
but the indigo dye(the original kind) has a disinfecting effect. so if you get scratches or wounds, it would be disinfected by te dye.
Or so Ive heared. also a reason why it bleeds so heavely when new.

I read somewhere (can't remember) that the origins of the kendogi were rather humble - i.e. that the gi and hakama were based on the old Edo fire brigade uniform (straight-up) and that the indigo was used because it helped to stop the fabric rotting. Does anyone know if there is any historical truth in this?

Not very romantic - but then I have known a few birds who have asked me to dress up as a fireman from time to time...

[Kingofmyrrh]

That’s a great thought. I didn’t think of it in that way at all. That would make for a very interesting study.

Hehe. Be my guest!

[Paburo]

i think personalisation of kendo gear is something OK at any level, as long as you play by the rules of shibumi: good taste; astringency; refinement

let's use a simple and practical example of two kenshi who use 'non-standard' kendo equipment:

subject A: black hakama, bleached blue keikogi, dark-blue dou, black tsuba.

subject B: white hakama, black keikogi, light yellow dou, pink tsuba.

the first will probably go unnoticed though the second will surely stand out.... why? if they both customised about the same amount of gear? bad flashy bad taste my friend.... :D

as a japanese budo/sport, you might also want to think of it all collectively, not just individually.... i think any dojo can't hardly be taken seriously if their members look just like the power rangers....

i personally find flashy colours and badges distasteful for kendo. it's too nascar-ish...

[Newbie]

Oh no. You had to mention Power Ranger bogu, didn't you? Just makes me think of the infamous Bacon Shinken thread....

[ScottUK]

Oh no. You had to mention Power Ranger bogu, didn't you? Just makes me think of the infamous Bacon Shinken thread....Hehe nice Jamon on that sword... :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

I propose a different reason than any yet seen in this thread for individuality being discouraged in kendo. It's very simple: most of the people that are at the summit of the kendo world today grew up in a Japan that was dirt poor. [snip]That argument might fly if the primary way such people differentiate themselves wasn't to buy the most expensive plain set they can afford. You see the quality up close, from a distance it just looks like any other set.

Here's the simple truth, and I put it into the bogu FAQ - wear what you like, think what you like, but you will not change the opinions of those who think otherwise. You may think that old sensei is being unreasonable when he refuses to teach you because of what you are wearing, but he will do what he will do. If you want to learn from those guys, stick out by your actions, not your equipment.

Personally, it doesn't bother me if someone has funky bogu. But that's just me.

PS - "refuse to teach" won't be anything so obvious as actually saying "I refuse to teach you". But the effect will be the same.

[Obulco]

Here's the simple truth, and I put it into the bogu FAQ - wear what you like, think what you like, but you will not change the opinions of those who think otherwise. You may think that old sensei is being unreasonable when he refuses to teach you because of what you are wearing, but he will do what he will do.

I think this is a key point. Generally speaking, discretion and uniformity are traditionally valued in Budo. Conform to that (specially at the beginner stages but not limited to) and one will have already something favorable going on in the eyes of a traditional instructor. If one does not conform to these values and wants to follow a more individualistic approach (or even question the values in themselves) one has to be ready to accept the reaction elicited by said actions. I am in the traditionalist side, but I have an enormous respect for those individuals that knowingly will face some negative reactions to preserve what they understand is something important to their own identity.

However, I am not sure how much respect I can have for the individual who, when facing said reactions, starts with the “well, it should not be that way, I should be fully accepted the way I please to be, What? Because sensei said it is like this? I do not think so”….and so forth. To many people practicing Budo seriously, this attitude sounds more like children’s whining and it is not very becoming.

[ScottUK]

Maybe my analogy of 'sheep' and 'individual' are both appropriate...?

No different to an infant growing to become a valued member of society, surely a person can bow down, conform and become one of the masses until his ability/skill and the respect from others comes to the fore?

[Hisham]

My teacher at the UofM dojo is into gothic stuff(in fact his has a business related to goth fashion) but you wouldn't know if you only meet him in the dojo, it's like too diferrent people, anyway i agree with what Obulco said.

[bobdonny]

I dont remember readin in go rin no sho about fashion.... or any other budo book ;)

[satsumaruma]

I like to go 'commando'

that may be Individual or it may be sheep (cos sheep are usually nay-kid).

I find the loud thud-like slapping noise puts off my opponents:D

[tilt]

I believe that time spent deliberating over - for example - the colour of your tsuru is time that could be better spent studying Kata, or footwork, or Waza.

The issue for me, is that to begin Kendo is to open yourself up to a world of accessories - do I need a face scratcher? Or a deluxe Shinai scraper - well probably not.

I could easily purchase some really flash gear, but I would feel that I hadn't earned it. I intend to upgrade individual items when I have actually achieved something -grading, shiai etc.

The discussion about individuality is interesting, as we all fence with our faces pretty much obscured - and the anonymity obvious appeals for a number of reasons - from the supression of the ego, to the whole Batman/Dark Knight scenario.

For me there is nothing more disappointing than a Kendoka who looks like he/she's really special, and then performs unspectaculary on the dancefloor.
As far as style goes - the Kendoka who is shit hot and his apparel is representative of his hard effort, i.e it's faded and well worn appeals to me.

[D'Artagnan]

I find the loud thud-like slapping noise puts off my opponents:D


try this (http://www.onja.com.au/onja/images/decor/products/product_sports_bra.jpg)...

[ScottUK]

Hehe, nice one. I was gonna suggest these (http://www.brockmoore.com/images/funny/crazy-japanese-show_02.jpg).

[Obulco]

Hehe, nice one. I was gonna suggest these (http://www.brockmoore.com/images/funny/crazy-japanese-show_02.jpg).

Awesome. :spchless:

Well, they have helmet and kote. Give them a shinai and let them loose in the dojo. They seem ready. The one in red, though, I don’t know, perhaps too flashy, he is just asking for it.

[ScottUK]

Then I guess you should give it to him? :D

[satsumaruma]

But PLEASE


DO NOT post any pictures on what happens when you do give it to him:D

[Obulco]

Then I guess you should give it to him? :D

Incorrigible Lord Cthulhu! :D

[I_am_Cthulhu]

Did someone call? :eek:

[JByrd]

Generally speaking, discretion and uniformity are traditionally valued in Budo.


I dont remember readin in go rin no sho about fashion.... or any other budo book ;)

I'm with Bob, and Obulco. The Bushido tradition clearly eschews ostentation.

Bushido is a military tradition. Army troops dress alike for a very good reason that is as valid today as ever. Of course we are not likely to march into combat together with our dojo mates, but this uniformity reminds us of the combat roots, and thus the seriousness, of what we are doing. I personally do not want to see the Kendo dojo turned into a fashion show.

[hyuna]

I propose a different reason than any yet seen in this thread for individuality being discouraged in kendo. It's very simple: most of the people that are at the summit of the kendo world today grew up in a Japan that was dirt poor.
It's an interesting idea, but I think the cause is both deeper and more simple than that.

To the degree kendo is supposed to improve your character, kendo has to teach socially acceptable manners and values.

Just because someone grows up poor doesn't mean that one will value not standing out -- it's just as possible that the situation will make people want to acquire and display "bling" even more prominently. So, the key point here is that these people felt that it was bad to be ostentatious in a time of need. But, of course, this isn't really a time of need anymore, so maybe the underlying cultural value here is simply that it is bad to be ostentatious at any time ("the nail that sticks up will get hammered down").

As I said before, I think that it is best not to stand out in ways that are not really relevant to practice. But that doesn't mean I am against fancy bogu -- if everyone is wearing fancy bogu, then I guess you might as well, too. If 1/5 people in your dojo have fancy bogu, then it isn't really "sticking out like a sore thumb" to have something with a little flash. But that is not the same thing as "showing off your individuality." I think it is easy to confuse two subtly different ideas.

Perhaps it would be helpful to think of it slightly differently. There are lots of ways to stand out that doesn't involve your gear. You could use a strange kiai, or an unusual kamae. You could try to develop a style that is different from what is taught in your club (like if you have a dojo that is more shiai oriented, being the opposite way -- or vice-versa). To take it to a greater extreme, you could invent your own waza or kamae -- you can't get more individual than that. Do people think that "customizing" their kendo in such a way is a different kind of thing than customizing their bogu?

I think there are a lot of fundamental ideas and values that go into kendo that argue against too much customization and "individuality."

[Robobob]

I dont remember readin in go rin no sho about fashion.... or any other budo book ;)
Isn´t there a part about wearing make-up in the hagakure?

[bobdonny]

dunno, ill have a quick read thru.

[satsumaruma]

I'm with Bob, and Obulco. The Bushido tradition clearly eschews ostentation.

Bushido is a military tradition. Army troops dress alike for a very good reason that is as valid today as ever. Of course we are not likely to march into combat together with our dojo mates, but this uniformity reminds us of the combat roots, and thus the seriousness, of what we are doing. I personally do not want to see the Kendo dojo turned into a fashion show.


Hmm.
Must say I am not totally convinced of your argument here. I have seen plenty of old photogarphs showing Japanese Bushi in some pretty outlandish looking gear. eg - hakama and gi with huge Chrysanthemeum patterns.

Hardly the epitome of conservatism.

Colours tended to be conservative for the same reason they teneded to be, for such a long time, in Europe; because they 'fix' better to the cloth. Bright reds, yellows and blues are not totally colourfast and were a lot worse in days gone by. Not going into a dissertation on the study of dyes but I hope you get my drift with this.

Lee

[Manuka]

Isn´t there a part about wearing make-up in the hagakure?

I read where they would use make up so their faces did not appear pale, taken as a sign of fear.
Much the same reason for painting the inside rim of the Men red.

as for the original question, Baaaaaaaaa!

[mingshi]

Wikied about indigo dye:-


In Japan, indigo became especially important in the Edo period when it was forbidden to use silk, so the Japanese began to import and plant cotton. It was difficult to dye the cotton fiber except with indigo. Many years later the use of indigo is very much appreciated as a color for the summer Kimono Yukata, as the blue sea and the nature are recalled on this traditional clothing.


...Another preindustrial method, used in Japan, was to dissolve the indigo in a heated vat in which a culture of thermophilic, anaerobic bacteria was maintained. Some species of such bacteria generate hydrogen as a metabolic product, which can convert insoluble indigo into soluble indigo white. Cloth dyed in such a vat was decorated with the techniques of shibori (tie-dye), kasuri, katazome, and tsutsugaki. Examples of clothing and banners dyed with these techniques can be seen in the works of Hokusai and other artists.

Full article can be found here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_dye

[Ignatz]

My answer to the original question- - - -
There will never be another ewe.

[Kuma]

I read where they would use make up so their faces did not appear pale, taken as a sign of fear.
Much the same reason for painting the inside rim of the Men red.

This is interesting. I had forgotten about that in Hagakure, but maybe it was still working subconsciously. I like the way that my eyeliner sets off a contrast in my eyes. I feel like when I am flushed and sweaty from working out/keiko, that it makes my eyes look a little more crazed. Surely not a bad thing in shiai. :D

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

I read where they would use make up so their faces did not appear pale, taken as a sign of fear.
Much the same reason for painting the inside rim of the Men red.

as for the original question, Baaaaaaaaa!

Wasn't it that, after a good piss-up, you had to apply a touch of blusher to hide the signs of a hangover?

I'm never without it for a Sunday morning practice

[Fudo-Shin]

Hmm.
Must say I am not totally convinced of your argument here. I have seen plenty of old photogarphs showing Japanese Bushi in some pretty outlandish looking gear. eg - hakama and gi with huge Chrysanthemeum patterns.
Lee

Yeah but...correct me if I'm wrong. Those large chrysanthemums etc were the family Mon or the Daimyo's were they not? So not a fashion statement perse' (more like a zekken) and the large Kabuto and extravagent armour were only worn by high ranking officers or the likes of "Ol' man Tokugawa" himself.

We are but simple foot soldiers in the heirarchy of Kendo ranking. And besides we are not military anyway, Kendo became Budo for the masses a long time ago.

[satsumaruma]

Yeah but...correct me if I'm wrong. Those large chrysanthemums etc were the family Mon or the Daimyo's were they not? So not a fashion statement perse' (more like a zekken) and the large Kabuto and extravagent armour were only worn by high ranking officers or the likes of "Ol' man Tokugawa" himself.

We are but simple foot soldiers in the heirarchy of Kendo ranking. And besides we are not military anyway, Kendo became Budo for the masses a long time ago.

Sometimes they were, but it is not what I was thinking of. I have a beauty of a photo in a book which I will see if I can work out how to scan and paste onto this thread somehow. It clearly shows these Samurai who are wearing what looks to be Brown/grey hakama and gi with large Chrysanthemums all over. Not mon per se but reminiscent of 70's curtains if you know what I mean

[Kuma]

Not mon per se but reminiscent of 70's curtains if you know what I mean

Ah, yes. This was to induce vomiting in aite, was it not?

[Kingofmyrrh]

That argument might fly if the primary way such people differentiate themselves wasn't to buy the most expensive plain set they can afford. You see the quality up close, from a distance it just looks like any other set.
I have no particular desire to claim that my idea is true over any other, as I pretty much just made it up, but is what you say actually true? I'm fortunate enough to be able to practice with quite a lot of high ranking old guys, and by and large the bogu they use in the dojo is not particularly expensive. They may well have a nice set for use when practicing/competing/teaching outide of their home dojo, but the stuff they use when practicing at the regular dojo is pretty normal. Of course, this is only the 7th/8th dans that I actually see on a reasonably regular basis, so it would be foolish to try and claim that this was necessarily the case for all teachers.

[Kingofmyrrh]

It's an interesting idea, but I think the cause is both deeper and more simple than that.

To the degree kendo is supposed to improve your character, kendo has to teach socially acceptable manners and values.

Just because someone grows up poor doesn't mean that one will value not standing out -- it's just as possible that the situation will make people want to acquire and display "bling" even more prominently. So, the key point here is that these people felt that it was bad to be ostentatious in a time of need. But, of course, this isn't really a time of need anymore, so maybe the underlying cultural value here is simply that it is bad to be ostentatious at any time ("the nail that sticks up will get hammered down").
I don't take issue with the criticism of the idea, but I do wonder about how significant the fact that it "isn't really a time of need anymore" is. I agree that it is not, and most people my age or a little older would also probably agree. However, this doesn't, for example, stop older people in Japan feeling amazed and uneasy that young people don't have the same kind of desire and drive to work as hard as they can to get ahead as they might have in their youth - they luck the "hungry seishin" as many commentators describe it. There's plenty of media comment about the "furita" phenomenon in Japan, which is young people leaving university/school without a strong desire to get straight into a career job with a "good firm", instead opting to get odd jobs here and there to enable them to pursue whatever interests they have. This is a situation that seems to exist in many countries, but is made more a target of concern in Japan than in most places. I tend to believe that this is because these older people with their attitudes from a previous generation have a firm grip on media/policy-making in Japan (have you seen how decrepit some politicians here look!). Even so, they can't stop young people doing as they wish directly. However, kendo clearly involves much more personal contact and so whatever attitudes older instructors bring with them from earlier times have a much greater chance of being enforced on the current generation - whether or not they are relevant and useful or not. In other words, just because it isn't a time of need, that doesn't mean that attitudes from that period do not still prevail.


I think there are a lot of fundamental ideas and values that go into kendo that argue against too much customization and "individuality."
Perhaps it's just a reflection of the fact that I have more access to kendo information living in Japan, but this doesn't really make sense to me. For example, in this month's Kendo Nihon, Inoue sensei from Kyoto (hanshi 9th dan) laments the uniform nature of people's kendo these days. Needless to say he's not talking about dress style, but individuality in technique and style. His opinion is that the decline of arageiko is what led to this, but whatever you might think about that, he's an example of somebody who doesn't believe that all kendo should be standardised. I actually tend to think that this is a view prevalent among many older practitioners. I suspect that the standardisation we see currently is actually quite a recent thing. If you read shiai reports from the 1930s, you can see that most people have their own particular techniques - "he countered his opponent's katate migi-hanmen with a kaeshi gyaku do strike" is a (from memory) translation of an actual passage, and there are plenty others just as outlandish (unless you're Gibbo, in which case these are your everyday techniques).

[The great I AM]

(unless you're Gibbo, in which case these are your everyday techniques).I gave you some rep already, so you I'll simply say this:

Yes.

[satsumaruma]

Ah, yes. This was to induce vomiting in aite, was it not?


I think it was the uniform for Ninjas who were required to dress in camouflage when in the castle of a Daimyo with particularly bad taste:D

[hyuna]

In other words, just because it isn't a time of need, that doesn't mean that attitudes from that period do not still prevail.
Exactly so -- so I think it is just a value that teachers have, at this point.


For example, in this month's Kendo Nihon, Inoue sensei from Kyoto (hanshi 9th dan) laments the uniform nature of people's kendo these days. Needless to say he's not talking about dress style, but individuality in technique and style. His opinion is that the decline of arageiko is what led to this, but whatever you might think about that, he's an example of somebody who doesn't believe that all kendo should be standardised.
Well, you are undoubtedly more in tune with what these people think than I am, so maybe you can tell me more about it.

I didn't mean that people shouldn't have favorite techniques. Everyone does, no matter what we think of it. As I said before, there can be variety without having people stand out.

What kind of uniformity is it that Inoue sensei finds to be troublesome, and do you have any sense as to why?

[Neil Gendzwill]

is what you say actually true?You probably see more of it than I do, but most of the guys I've met have a very good quality hand-stitched set. It may not be flashy, but it's a long way from the $500 machine stitched sets, too. OTOH I know one nanadan fellow whose bogu is 25 years old and looks it. I guess my point is that it is possible to spend a lot of money on bogu without it looking obviously different, and many people do. My own set isn't super-expensive, but it isn't cheap either, and it is pretty plain. If these older sensei truly felt that they needed to spend only the minimum, they would buy a servicable machine-stitched set and have done with it.

[The great I AM]

For those who can, take a look at a pic of one of the Kokushikan sensei in this months Kendo Nippon referenced by Kingpfpooh. Baba Kinji. His armour is quite frankly ludicrous! Certainly no-one else I have ever seen has worn much like it.......

[Kingofmyrrh]

For those who can, take a look at a pic of one of the Kokushikan sensei in this months Kendo Nippon referenced by Kingpfpooh. Baba Kinji. His armour is quite frankly ludicrous! Certainly no-one else I have ever seen has worn much like it.......
That is the sketchiest bogu I've seen for some time... won't catch me wearing anything like that any time soon. Even puts Andy to shame.

[Manuka]

... but this doesn't really make sense to me. For example, in this month's Kendo Nihon, Inoue sensei from Kyoto (hanshi 9th dan) laments the uniform nature of people's kendo these days. Needless to say he's not talking about dress style, but individuality in technique and style.

Perhaps he feels that kendo is stagnating.
In past times the best swordsmen sought instruction from more than one sensei, then some of them melded different teaching into new 'styles'. This is after learning as much as they could from the best teachers they could find. Perhaps Inoue sensei does not see the top practicioners taking that final step to advance/improve the art.
Does that mean kendo has reached its pinnacle? that there is no more improvement.
My guess is that sensei hopes not.

I will stress that he is looking at only those who have already attained extremely high proficiency, not the wannabes without perserverence.

[bullet08]

in this month's Kendo Nihon, Inoue sensei from Kyoto (hanshi 9th dan) laments the uniform nature of people's kendo these days. Needless to say he's not talking about dress style, but individuality in technique and style. His opinion is that the decline of arageiko is what led to this, but whatever you might think about that, he's an example of somebody who doesn't believe that all kendo should be standardised. I actually tend to think that this is a view prevalent among many older practitioners. I suspect that the standardisation we see currently is actually quite a recent thing..

while on the way to my shodan test, my sensei brought this up. my sensei's sensei who's a hachidan in tokyo, believes that it's rather sad that individual style, and specific dojo style is going away and it's all being standaraized.

pete

[Kuma]

Would someone please address for the concept of style in kendo for me? As bullet08 and Kingofmyrrh had said, some sensei lament the lack of personal style and dojo style, but in what way can the style of kendo be personalized? In my very short time doing kendo, I've yet to see any way that one could have a personal style other than favoring certain strikes, or combinations of strikes and movements. However, it seems that there are too few of these that would be within the rules of kendo to develop more than a small, limited set of styles.

Please, educate me on this matter. :)

[Anime12478]

It seems as though the people that are saying this have been practicing since before WWII in which the styles of kendo were more open to have styles on. There are a lot of techniques that can be used, but we are only taught a certain amount.

When you were talking about personal style, Kuma, that is what I was thinking in terms of making it personal. If you have certain moves you are good at, then that is your style. It's not like you can effectively come up with your own set of moves or something on the fly and use it.

I really hope that made sense. I know what I want to say, but not how I want to say it.

[Curtis]

For those who can, take a look at a pic of one of the Kokushikan sensei in this months Kendo Nippon referenced by Kingpfpooh. Baba Kinji. His armour is quite frankly ludicrous! Certainly no-one else I have ever seen has worn much like it.......

I have seen several sets over the years that were quite decorative in Japan. Just saw one this last trip that was similar to this. Black with a big wave on it. I think he was an older 7 dan.

It would not be my cup of tea, but I am certainly no sheep either. I have a deep blue doh and a slate blue doh. Gee, guess what my favorite color is. Also have a same doh that was a gift from Koei though I rarely wear it. I would never have spent the money for one, I am too cheap. But when offered as a gift you just say thank you and take it and run.

[The great I AM]

It would not be my cup of tea, but I am certainly no sheep either. I have a deep blue doh and a slate blue doh. Gee, guess what my favorite color is.Ditto! I've got a mega-dark blue dou that you can only really differentiate from black in half decent light.
Also have a same doh that was a gift from Koei though I rarely wear it. I would never have spent the money for one, I am too cheap. But when offered as a gift you just say thank you and take it and run.Hell yes. I'd be happy to get any bit of kit free, same-dou?! Bonus!

[Kuma]

I really hope that made sense. I know what I want to say, but not how I want to say it.

Thanks, Anime. I think that you said that clearly enough. Yeah, I figured that one could not suddenly whip out their patented "Eight Drunken Monkeys Strike" or "Kamehameha Wave" in shiai. Maybe when I become good at anything at all, then that will be become my style since it'll be the only thing I've got. :P


I have a deep blue doh and a slate blue doh.

That sounds gorgeous! I'll bet that the slate doh looks great with the indigo. Have you posted any pictures, Curtis?

[Curtis]

That sounds gorgeous! I'll bet that the slate doh looks great with the indigo. Have you posted any pictures, Curtis?

You can see the family collection here: http://www.kendo-usa.org/images/family_doh_rs.jpg

I gave the one on the bottom far end away along with the men to a very deserving student.

[Curtis]

Ditto! I've got a mega-dark blue dou that you can only really differentiate from black in half decent light. Hell yes. I'd be happy to get any bit of kit free, same-dou?! Bonus!

I have received so many gifts over the years I cannot remember them all. Dogi, bogu, shinai, etc. And I have hauled so many gifts to Japan and elsewhere I had trouble packing it all in.

[shred_lord]

You can see the family collection here: http://www.kendo-usa.org/images/family_doh_rs.jpg

I gave the one on the bottom far end away along with the men to a very deserving student.I now understand the "Must have more doh" comment in your title.

PS: Love the purple Do (Though it's a bit light coloured and should be paired with the purple mune)

PPS: I can't wait for my Ishime do to come.

[Curtis]

I now understand the "Must have more doh" comment in your title.

PS: Love the purple Do (Though it's a bit light coloured and should be paired with the purple mune)

PPS: I can't wait for my Ishime do to come.

The purple one is my son's color changing doh. It goes from purple to gold in different light.

Yes, I love doh and I am not one of those use it until it smells rotten and falls off of you people.

[cesarekim]

Every time I need to get a new do I have to take a freaking mortgage... Considering the breadth of my hara, I usually get a 64 piece... Mine are either black or some boring color. It's bad enough I have a huge do without actually having it become a moving target for wandering air-dirt fighter planes

[Bomba]

erm....you have to be an "individual" to wear this stuff.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/samedo634/folder/1467029.html

He may actually have stuff made from sheep if you look hard enough.

[The great I AM]

erm....you have to be an "individual" to wear this stuff.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/samedo634/folder/1467029.html

He may actually have stuff made from sheep if you look hard enough.I want a dou made from whale penis. With the hole in the middle of the dou, like a flash kamon!

[Kuma]

You can see the family collection here: http://www.kendo-usa.org/images/family_doh_rs.jpg

I gave the one on the bottom far end away along with the men to a very deserving student.

That's a damn-lucky student! What a beautiful collection. Someday, if I am horribly disfigured and maimed in an industrial accident, I'll spend my settlement money in the effort to match your collection. Failing that, it's a fat chance I fear. I'm going to be a middle school science teacher. :cry:


...Considering the breadth of my hara...

That's totally how I'm gonna start referring to my gut. :p

[Alexandrinus]

im one of these people wearing only single colour t-shirts (black ,white,red...), so my do is black(no money for such things).

But there was no question, i have to get a bamboo do (even nobody sees it).

[pgsmith]

I want a dou made from whale penis.
Never heard of that before. But, since you're into that sort of thing, here's a katana with a walrus penis handle! :)

http://www.mvforge.com/oosickatana.html

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

I want a dou made from whale penis. With the hole in the middle of the dou, like a flash kamon!

A literary reference in a KW forum thread.... What the blazes is the world coming to?

What happened to inane banter about setting up our own secret ninja levitating sword styles?

[The great I AM]

A literary reference in a KW forum thread.... What the blazes is the world coming to?

What happened to inane banter about setting up our own secret ninja levitating sword styles?I don't get it. Whats literary about a bawdy reference to a 500kg 10 foot long cock?

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

I don't get it. Whats literary about a bawdy reference to a 500kg 10 foot long cock?

There's a chapter in Moby Dick where the whalers make a jacket out of a sperm whale's penis and dance about in it - I thought your whale penis suggestion was a reflection of your wide reading in nineteenth century literatur - rather than just a sick craving.

personally, I thought having a midget stapled to the front of the doh would be quite good - like Kuato in Total recall (he could have a little kodachi too)

[Kuma]

personally, I thought having a midget stapled to the front of the doh would be quite good - like Kuato in Total recall (he could have a little kodachi too)

Finally! I've found a way to put my two-year-old to work for me! And my doh would even be able to kiai!

[剣、ビールおよび女の子]

Finally! I've found a way to put my two-year-old to work for me! And my doh would even be able to kiai!

My doh does kiai all on its own already - well it seems to come from somewhere down there...

[Paikea]

I don't get it. Whats literary about a bawdy reference to a 500kg 10 foot long cock?Indeed, I have always believed Gibbo yearned for the discipline found in the traditions of the Royal Navy.

[The great I AM]

Indeed, I have always believed Gibbo yearned for the discipline found in the traditions of the Royal Navy.Where they sail the seven seas? Or where its found at the end of aforementioned love-limb?

[Paikea]

Where they sail the seven seas?Something about rum and the lash, I think it was. Maybe something else as well...:eek:

[Kenshi]

I thought your whale penis suggestion was a reflection of your wide reading in nineteenth century literatur - rather than just a sick craving.

guffaw...... ive known Gibbo for years and NEVER - NOT ONCE - had a discussion about any book, never mind 19thC literature.... that cracked me up!

[Awooga Guy]

personally, I thought having a midget stapled to the front of the doh would be quite good - like Kuato in Total recall (he could have a little kodachi too)

OPEN YOUR MIND TO ME QUAAAAAID... (http://www.mangoat.net/archives/KuatoGeorge.jpg)








That is all.

[shred_lord]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?0424e77966.png

Now THAT is all!

[SmellsLikeBogu]

http://www.n-chicken.net/features/krangtribute/krangandshredder.jpg

turtles did it

[bullet08]

I don't get it. Whats literary about a bawdy reference to a 500kg 10 foot long cock?

that depends on which section of b&n you hang around in.

pete

[Awooga Guy]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?0424e77966.png

Now THAT is all!


http://www.n-chicken.net/features/krangtribute/krangandshredder.jpg

turtles did it

Yakyakyak! :D Hur hur arf and guffaw :)

Good work fellas :)





That is all.

[Kuma]

Oh, man. That's good stuff. Do you do requests? How about Krang in a hole in someone's doh? That would make my buddy wet himself laughing.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

havent got photoshop at work. I'll try when I get home tonight :D

[Charlie]

Isn´t there a part about wearing make-up in the hagakure?

Yup. Carefully clean yourself and comb your hair and apply a bit of rouge so your head will appear good if removed from your body.

Great thread! Sorry I came light. Place me into the camp that says kenshi should be uniform and distinguish themselves by behavior.

[Kuma]

Place me into the camp that says kenshi should be uniform and distinguish themselves by behavior.

Duly noted, Kondek-sensei. :D

[Charlie]

Oh, I didn't mean anything by that, Kuma! I only meant that's hw it applies to me. Goodness, I have to realize that when I speak I have people actually listening to me!

[pgsmith]

I have to realize that when I speak I have people actually listening to me!
Hmmm?? What??
I'm sorry, did you say something Charlie?? :D

[ScottUK]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz eh what huh? Ah, it was nothin'... (goes back to sleep...) :)

[The great I AM]

guffaw...... ive known Gibbo for years and NEVER - NOT ONCE - had a discussion about any book, never mind 19thC literature.... that cracked me up!Kiss mine scotty, I read!

[xvikingx]

Kiss mine scotty, I read!

"40+ Sluts" does not count as literature.

[ScottUK]

There goes Gibbo's extensive library then.

[shred_lord]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to xvikingx again.

Bugger!

[The great I AM]

"40+ Sluts" does not count as literature.I know, but the thought of seeing your mum again got me purchasing.

[ScottUK]

I love Kendo-World.

[Kenshi]

Kiss mine scotty, I read!

hey, i didnt say "you dont read" i said ive never discussed a book with you (like a serious one or non-kendo related) .... unless something comes to mind, hmm?

[The great I AM]

hey, i didnt say "you dont read" i said ive never discussed a book with you (like a serious one or non-kendo related) .... unless something comes to mind, hmm?Thats because you only read the beano, and I won't sink to your level!

Yeah.

[Charlie]

Hmmm?? What??
I'm sorry, did you say something Charlie?? :D

Hahaha! Dude, every word that falls from my mouth on the subject of kendo or JSA in general is a gift from God so pay attention! :D

[SmellsLikeBogu]

oh, this is where my krang do picture belongs :)
sorry its late :)
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kendokragna7.jpg

[Shikkari]

Good Call Robobob!
Glad someone noticed the beautiful subtle design elements in our bogu design!
At my club (in Japan), anything apart from a black do is a no go for the adults, we switich gi colours seasonally and together, white summer, blue winter on a specified day. Tengui are whatever you like, but a taikai naturally calls for the club one.
The weird, the bright, the egotastic are seriously distracting and are deemed very distasteful by our senior sensei.

[Kuma]

oh, this is where my krang do picture belongs :)
sorry its late :)
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kendokragna7.jpg

Oh, beautiful! And just in time to celebrate the new Turtles movies coming out next month. Thanks, man.

[Shikkari]

Good call Robobob!
Glad someone noticed the beautiful subtle design in the bogu construction!
At my club anything but a black do is a no go for adults, our gi changes with the season on a specified date, white for summer and blue for winter. As for tenegui, you wear any colour you like as long as its freshly laundered for normal keiko and its the club version for taikai.
Basically, the weird, the bright and the egotastic are deemed very distracting and distasteful by our senior sensei and quite UN necessary.

[Shikkari]

And.......
One other thing about this individualism business is where do you draw the line...???
I mean it would be seriously disgusting to see a pikuchu painted up on someones Do, or Doraemon patches sewn onto the menbuton!!!!

[Kuma]

And.......
One other thing about this individualism business is where do you draw the line...???
I mean it would be seriously disgusting to see a pikuchu painted up on someones Do, or Doraemon patches sewn onto the menbuton!!!!

So which Pokemon would be more appropriate? Kabutops?

[dwez]

I still think this http://www.satorido.com/view_product.php?cat=1&product_id=619 [from a previous post] is the most insane act of blatant exhibitionism ever. i wonder how many they sell?

[Kuma]

I still think this http://www.satorido.com/view_product.php?cat=1&product_id=619 [from a previous post] is the most insane act of blatant exhibitionism ever. i wonder how many they sell?

Maybe they only make it for miko who practice kendo but don't have time to change before practice. This bogu would look great with their outfits.