Which shinai to strike the fastest men?

[Legionario]

I would like to ask a question to the experts of the forum.
In your opinion which one is the best shinai combination (chokuto + koban, dobari + common tsuka, etc.) to strike men as fast as possible?

Is a dobari shinai recommended, because of the light tip, or it is better a chokuto one?

Thanks in advance for your advices.

[Big One]

Read more before asked. Thanks.

[Paikea]

The weight of chokuto (or, koto) shinai is more evenly distributed than it is for a dobari, so it will feel heavier and slower. If there were a sure-fire combination of shinai style, handle and tsuka that guaranteed speed, we'd all have one (there isn't). It's all about what works for you.

[Big One]

I used Dobari before and after I was introduced to Chokuto, I like it better. I don't consider it feels heavier than Dobari.

[ben]

A light tip (dobari) will move quicker through the air, but it will also be harder to control. A heavier tip (koto/chokuto) may not move as fast, but it will stay on target better.

I don't like the question though. Sounds like a sportsman talking.

b

[Legionario]

I don't like the question though. Sounds like a sportsman talking.
Oh well, that was not my intent.
The point is that men is my favourite target, so since I have to order a bunch of new shinai I was wondering about the best option available in order to deliver the strongest and fastest men in my possibilities.
As for the sport thing I am very far from that mentality. I have always practiced kendo trying to put style and elegance as my priorities. Nine years of intense iaido practice helped me to understand the meaning of what I was doing.

[Legionario]

The weight of chokuto (or, koto) shinai is more evenly distributed than it is for a dobari, so it will feel heavier and slower. If there were a sure-fire combination of shinai style, handle and tsuka that guaranteed speed, we'd all have one (there isn't). It's all about what works for you.
Thanks for your answer.
What you write is what I know and have acknowledged reading through the forums, but nonetheless I wanted to read the opinions of some of the kenshi of the forum particularly fond of men strikes.
In my humble opinion the men strike is the most beautiful and elegant hit you can deliver during a kendo match.
In a well performed men (with the correct maai, timing, kiai, hasuji and so on) I see the true essence of this discipline.

But I think that I would have to agree with your final phrase: "it's all about what works for you".

[ben]

Oh well, that was not my intent.
The point is that men is my favourite target, so since I have to order a bunch of new shinai I was wondering about the best option available in order to deliver the strongest and fastest men in my possibilities.
As for the sport thing I am very far from that mentality. I have always practiced kendo trying to put style and elegance as my priorities. Nine years of intense iaido practice helped me to understand the meaning of what I was doing.

Very glad to hear it. Still an odd question. Maybe it's a matter of tone. All the best with your men. :)

b

[bullet08]

i ended up using both koto, and dobari. when i'm doing kihon, waza drill, and ji-geiko against kohai, i use koto shinai. koto shinai gives better control, and i can hold the center better. when i'm tired, or i'm going against sensei or sempai who expect me to go attack, attack, attack, or someone who is super fast and i need to react to lot of situation, i use dobari.

pete

[SmellsLikeBogu]

I havent used the oval handles but I ordered one, so I will soon :)
Ive tried both dobari and chokuto, and dobari is really slow for me
with chokuto it has a heavier tip so It feels to me as if I can put more momentum in it. my shimeru also feels alot better zith chokuto.
never gonna buy dobari again :)
last I ordered as a koban chokuto, cant wait :)

[SmellsLikeBogu]

Oh well, that was not my intent.
The point is that men is my favourite target, so since I have to order a bunch of new shinai I was wondering about the best option available in order to deliver the strongest and fastest men in my possibilities.
As for the sport thing I am very far from that mentality. I have always practiced kendo trying to put style and elegance as my priorities. Nine years of intense iaido practice helped me to understand the meaning of what I was doing.

only good advice is this:
get several types, and experiment!
there's only one way to find out whats right for you
we all have different preferences, you just need to find yours

[Legionario]

All the best with your men. :)
Eheh, thanks Ben.



i ended up using both koto, and dobari. when i'm doing kihon, waza drill, and ji-geiko against kohai, i use koto shinai. koto shinai gives better control, and i can hold the center better. when i'm tired, or i'm going against sensei or sempai who expect me to go attack, attack, attack, or someone who is super fast and i need to react to lot of situation, i use dobari.
Pete, thanks a lot for your impressions.
In the meantime I have just ordered some of those "obaru" koban dobari shinai from ebogu... and tomorrow will check some other kendo e-shops for a koban chokuto one, so I can compare the both of them and make up my mind. :beard:

[Legionario]

I havent used the oval handles but I ordered one, so I will soon. Ive tried both dobari and chokuto, and dobari is really slow for me. with chokuto it has a heavier tip so It feels to me as if I can put more momentum in it. my shimeru also feels alot better zith chokuto. never gonna buy dobari again. last I ordered as a koban chokuto, cant wait
Interesting.
So when you finally get your new chokuto shinai would you like to share your impressions here with us?
I'll do the same, just the time for the goodies to land into my mailbox...



only good advice is this: get several types, and experiment! there's only one way to find out whats right for you we all have different preferences, you just need to find yours
It is!
Thanks to you too. :wink:

[Legionario]

Ah, I almost forgot another important thing that I wanted to ask!!!
Years ago (I mean many years ago), during a stay in Japan, I studied the basics of the jodan no kamae, and now, since I have restarted to train in kendo, for I-don't-know-which-reason I feel very very confortable with this kamae that I decided to study it more indepthly and to apply it to the shiai.
So, the question is, are there specific shinai characteristics which suits better this particular kamae?
Is so please let me know.

Thanks again to all the people that intervened in this thread.

[Masahiro]

In your opinion which one is the best shinai combination (chokuto + koban, dobari + common tsuka, etc.) to strike men as fast as possible?

the one you practice with the most!

[Big One]

I am sorry but I feel this poster is a kid playing in the back yard. He is trying to trick us by using term like "many many years ago".

[Legionario]

I am sorry but I feel this poster is a kid playing in the back yard. He is trying to trick us by using term like "many many years ago".
Ahem...
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13068

Got the meaning now?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I am sorry but I feel this poster is a kid playing in the back yard. He is trying to trick us by using term like "many many years ago".
A moment's research would have saved you from looking foolish...

[Big One]

My apologize. Actually I read the other post already. It was very friendly at it best. then come the question, what shinai is the fastest. Then come the question with Jodan No Kamae. I just ponder myself if I played Kendo before to the point of being introduced to Jodan, I should know better about Shinai and the Kamae to pull off some question like that. If I am wrong, I apologize, no point of ashame to look foolish.

By the way, I have a question myself too. Can you tell me what shinai and Bogu to make me fight like a Hachidan? Thanks You.

[Masahiro]

Can you tell me what shinai and Bogu to make me fight like a Hachidan? Thanks You.

you know, the next time i see a hachidan i am going to borrow their bogu. and see if i can fight like they do. for some reason i am inclined to think that it's their bogu that pocesses all that awsomeness! :D

[Legionario]

My apologize. Actually I read the other post already. It was very friendly at it best. then come the question, what shinai is the fastest. Then come the question with Jodan No Kamae. I just ponder myself if I played Kendo before to the point of being introduced to Jodan, I should know better about Shinai and the Kamae to pull off some question like that. If I am wrong, I apologize, no point of ashame to look foolish.
Even if I have years of practice on my shoulders I’m not that great expert, expecially after a so long break. So, if I am writing here is mostly because there are more experienced people from whom I may learn something.
Back in the days, when there was no internet and hence we had no access to the mass of informations that we have today things were very different, at least overhere in Europe. I have had to go to Japan to discover the existence of the koban gata shinai, something I was completely clueless about.
As for the jodan no kamae thing, I trained constantly for eight years and when I had the chance I asked to learn this kamae I found so fascinating (even if I don’t remember that much anymore...).
That’s it. Is my explanation good enough or do I have to expect more arrogant remarks? After eight years of stop I'm kind of a novice again, and there are many things I don't know and are totally new to me. That's why I am asking, expecially concerning shinai. I remember that in the past I had no clue about all these differences - as I said I discovered the existence of koban gata only once in Japan, and not even the first time - and I was used to train and fight with whatever in the shape of a shinai I layed my hands on.



By the way, I have a question myself too. Can you tell me what shinai and Bogu to make me fight like a Hachidan? Thanks You.
Hehe, ok, now this was funny. :smiley:

[-=>Dave<=-]

if you want speed for hitting men, maybe try a jitsusen style shinai. jitsusen have a tip thinner than most dobari shinai so the centre of gravity is even closer to the handle. they have them at http://www.onlinekendo.com
personally i prefer chokuto over dobari.

[bullet08]

if you want speed for hitting men, maybe try a jitsusen style shinai. jitsusen have a tip thinner than most dobari shinai so the centre of gravity is even closer to the handle. they have them at http://www.onlinekendo.com
personally i prefer chokuto over dobari.

one of the thing i like about koto shinai is the feeling of solid contact when hitting the target. and this also helps me when i change over to dobari. if the shinai is too light, i would think it would be harder to learn that 'snap' of the wrist. it would be better to work with standard practice shinai, or koto shinai and bring in dobari and thin tip shinai when it's time for ji-geiko/shiai. just my opinion.. it ain't worth a pint of cheap beer.

pete

[ender84567]

sorry to be esoteric, but my $0.02 is the same advice given by musashi; have no favorite weapons. and obviously while i'm no expert my take is become faster in your footwork and hands, and it doesnt matter which shinai you use.

[Alexandrinus]

............... ...................

[groms]

I just got a koban dobari last night, never used one before, so I wanted to try it out. Haven´t assembled it yet tho. I was going to sand and oil it yesterday, but the take stick together much harder than my other shinai (at the handle), like it´s fully glued or something. It´s not supposed to stay that way because it´s oval, is it? Would make the sanding and oiling a bit harder...

[bullet08]

sorry to be esoteric, but my $0.02 is the same advice given by musashi; have no favorite weapons. and obviously while i'm no expert my take is become faster in your footwork and hands, and it doesnt matter which shinai you use.

sure, i play with house cue stick when i'm at local billard hall. but give it a shot.. you will find shinai you will like :) i used to feel the same way about shinai.. just use the dojo shinai. good player always uses house cue stick.. then i decided to give more expensive shinai a shot.. what a difference. the balance, and the weight.. and the feel of the swing.. well, everyone is different so you might not feel it.

pete

[Legionario]

if you want speed for hitting men, maybe try a jitsusen style shinai. jitsusen have a tip thinner than most dobari shinai so the centre of gravity is even closer to the handle. they have them at http://www.onlinekendo.com
personally i prefer chokuto over dobari.
Dave, thanks a lot for the link, I have just checked it and this jitsusen style shinai seems very very interesting. I'm going to place an order in the coming weeks.
That's the reason why I started this thread: to acknowledge the existance of shinai types I was unaware of. So thanks again for the advice. :wink:

[Legionario]

one of the thing i like about koto shinai is the feeling of solid contact when hitting the target. and this also helps me when i change over to dobari. if the shinai is too light, i would think it would be harder to learn that 'snap' of the wrist. it would be better to work with standard practice shinai, or koto shinai and bring in dobari and thin tip shinai when it's time for ji-geiko/shiai. just my opinion.. it ain't worth a pint of cheap beer.
It is a good thing to always bring more than one shinai in the bag, expecially when you usually work with shinai that like the oval grip ones are not so common. That's why I have also ordered a Hasegawa K2, my assurance not to be left without shinai when in times of need (i.e. your bamboo shinai do not pass the control before a match, etc.).

As for the rest I agree: dobari may be useful for gikeiko or shiai, but koto style is better for the everyday training.

[Bokushingu]

Correct Maai & kamae + Proper Suburi x Fast Footwork + Strong Seme = Fastest Shinai

[JCM]

Actually, I have a question that might be a bit off topic, what is the advantage of oval grips?. I have been thinking about getting a dobari with oval grip just to see how it feels (I always used chokuto). I just want to know about what the oval grip is about

Thanks,

JCM

[emitbrownne]

Actually, I have a question that might be a bit off topic, what is the advantage of oval grips?. I have been thinking about getting a dobari with oval grip just to see how it feels (I always used chokuto). I just want to know about what the oval grip is about

Thanks,

JCM

The grip seems more natural and similar to a bokuto/sword, therefore your ability to control where the sharp edge would land is better . I also find it easier to tsuki and perform katate waza as the grip is more comfortable.



As you can tell I use an oval... and I love it.

[JCM]

The grip seems more natural and similar to a bokuto/sword, therefore your ability to control where the sharp edge would land is better . I also find it easier to tsuki and perform katate waza as the grip is more comfortable.



As you can tell I use an oval... and I love it.

Thanks, I have put it off for a year now as I was told that chokuto would improve my accuracy, and I personally like heavier feel shinai. But I am really curious to see how an oval grip dobari feels. I think I'll go and order one

[Masahiro]

it is possible to have a "koban gata chokuto shinai"

[icy_flame]

Just throwing this out there - regardless if you love hitting Men - sensei(s?) tell me that Men is the most important cut to learn, as it is reflected in all the other strikes. It's really important to have a strong understanding of the Men cut. However wouldn't specializing your kendo to Men strikes be somewhat of a weakness? I've only been doing kendo for a year, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like a very good idea to buy a shinai specializing in a type of cut. Rather I would think it better to buy the shinai your most comfortable with, the one which allows you to use it as a tool the most. I'd be worried that buying a shinai specifically to enhance a men strike would make you focus on hitting it all the time, and to neglect 4 other strikes, for me, seems to lower your diversity of good waza and make your kendo predictable.

Kendo isn't golf!

Forgive me if I'm looking to deep into this.

[Legionario]

Waiting for a bunch of brand new koban grip shinai to land into my mailbox. Can't wait... also because I just destroyed my last decent one during a three days kendo retreat that our club had this weekend. During the retreat we had the selection of the seven members of the club that the 10th of the next month will engange in the National Team's Championship. Despite having re-started less than two months ago, and with my great surprise and delight, my name was among the selected. Which means that I need the new shinai as soon as possible to see if they suits my needs well and to get used to them before the national championships.
Anyways, things are starting to get serious again, have to get my ass seriously in gear now! :rambo:

[Legionario]

Correct Maai & kamae + Proper Suburi x Fast Footwork + Strong Seme = Fastest Shinai
As easy and simple as it is, this it the best answer I got in this thread... :glasses: