Kata - can one try again ??

[Kendoka]

I have heard that in Japan, if a candidate has passed the keiko component of a grading exam, but then fails the kata component, that they are allowed to be re-examined for the kata only at some later time.

Is this correct? Is it a prefectural practice or an AJKF policy?

Can any the Japanese kendo player give any any insight or elaborate on this, please?

[kendomushi]

There and then, at the test, the judges have called for select pairs or entires lots of people to redo one, more, or all of the kata they are testing on.
I once 2 years ago watched a group of 10 women (5 pairs) have to redo all 7 of the tachi no kata about a dozen times before the judges were satisfied. And then the entire body of people testing was given a 20 minute lecture on the importance of kata and how poorly they all did, however, virtually everyone was passed in the end.
In this area at least I've not heard of anyone retesting kata at a later date.

[Inouye02]

basically they failed , to do the kata that many times, the judges were very leinient...

[kendomushi]

Personally, I agree with you, they should have been failed.

[mingshi]

And then the entire body of people testing was given a 20 minute lecture on the importance of kata and how poorly they all did, however, virtually everyone was passed in the end.

There you go. Imagine the situation is going reverse and they did the Jitsugi (Keiko) part first. I'd like to have everyone pass their Jitsugi, on their 7th try, and then failing their Kata. Hahaha.

Meanwhile... last time I checked at the WKC grading, everybody who passed their Jitsugi passed their Kata. But then the majority (90%) are Gaijin. Even though some of them make seriously obvious mistakes, they passed.

Mingshi a.k.a. Anti-Kendo-Kata :tired:

[kendomushi]

I am very adamant on training in kata. The majority of dojo around here cram them a couple weeks to a month or so before testing. Most people testing do at least a fair job fighting, but kata are really miserable overall. I think pass rates are probably too high, shodan 99.5% pass, nidan 99%, sandan 98%, then suddenly at yondan it drops to 15%.

[Inouye02]

they just should not of passed ...

[mingshi]

The majority of dojo around here cram them a couple weeks to a month or so before testing. Most people testing do at least a fair job fighting, but kata are really miserable overall.
I keep wondering about this. Is there a LEVEL for people's Kata that the grading panel is looking for? There should be a great different between people who do Kata every week, every month, and a few hours before grading.

When I was at the last WKC, IMHO the Shodan gang has a higher level than the Nidan gang... and the Godan gang has a higher level than the Nanadan gang... :confused:

[justforkendo]

At my grading(may 03) in tokyo my partner ball's up kata 7. He just put his arm up and the panel said do it again. I have seen it happen in australia at the last perth nationals. A japanese guy going for yon dan made a mistake, same thing put up his hand and and did it again. If you make a mistake and the panel does'nt ask you to do it again let them know you want do it again. I saw it happen it the sydney club to.

[Kendoka]

At my grading(may 03) in tokyo my partner ball's up kata 7. He just put his arm up and the panel said do it again. I have seen it happen in australia at the last perth nationals. A japanese guy going for yon dan made a mistake, same thing put up his hand and and did it again. If you make a mistake and the panel does'nt ask you to do it again let them know you want do it again. I saw it happen it the sydney club to.

Thank you for the reponses.

Richard

[kendomushi]

I keep wondering about this. Is there a LEVEL for people's Kata that the grading panel is looking for? There should be a great different between people who do Kata every week, every month, and a few hours before grading.

When I was at the last WKC, IMHO the Shodan gang has a higher level than the Nidan gang... and the Godan gang has a higher level than the Nanadan gang... :confused:

I agree with you. So do the judges here, it seems people are getting complacent about kata. In fact, the last lecture I heard at a shinsa had the judges complaining to the san-dan group in particular, "how can you teach your juniors when your kata is so completely poor?" They also felt the shodan were the best in the bunch.
I do know that at yon-dan they expect much more feeling in the kata, perhaps more than they are looking for correct movement?

[Mr.Tvola]

I remember being struck in my chest in 3rd kata on my 3rd dan exam :-) My partner was confused and forgot, that she was shidachi (and had to parry my tsuki) - not much fun, it hurts a lot. But the judges allowed her to repeat that (twice). Finally, she passed ....

[hobbit]

I'll play devils advocate - it's not kendo, but I remember a karate grading I took under Steve Arneil; after kata and sparring, he asked everyone grading to demonstrate one particular technique, and failed everyone on the spot, purely on that. There has to be a level where you are expected to be properly prepared. Everyone makes mistakes, but needing to repeat a technique or kata multiple times to get it right at a grading is a sign you're not prepared and should not grade, or should be failed.

[Flashman]

I can understand some minor glitches in kata that might warrant a redo on the spot but allowing people to test and pass who are not prepared
reminds me of some higher colored belts I've seen test in my wife's tae kwondo class. They did not have their kata down at all and their techniques were terrible. My step-dau tested as well and her father (an 8th dan in karate) said he would have failed all but 2 of 34 who tested on the spot.

[kendomushi]

Recently, the number of kata required to pass here has changed. Now for shodan, you are expected to know all of the first 5, but only have to test on the first 3. Nidan, know the first 7, but test on the first 5. Sandan know all 7 tachi and 3 kodachi kata, but test only on the 7 tachi. Finally at yondan you are actually tested on all 7 tachi and 3 kodachi kata. I have wondered if this is to give people more time to come up to the expected level of proficiency, or just to make testing easier, or what?
Is this happening any where else?

[mingshi]

Recently, the number of kata required to pass here has changed.
!!!
No wonder!!!

Last time at the IKF WKC grading, the Shodan people are totally freaked out because the Sensei who are lecturing in the half-day seminar DID NOT ask us to show our #4-5 at all... and the Nidan people spent all their time doing #4-5 ONLY!!!


I have wondered if this is to give people more time to come up to the expected level of proficiency, or just to make testing easier, or what?
How long do you need to brush up your kata to "the expected level", really? Here in the UK I was told for a long time that for Shodan, it's #1-5... Then I spent a whole month on #4-5, and later found out I have wasted quite a lot of my time (as my Jitsugi is too bad, I thought I would practice in Bogu more.) Arggh :ermm: :ermm: :ermm:

[kendomushi]

When I tested for shodan it was 1-5, then nidan 1-7, and sandan 1-7 plus 1-3 kodachi.
I can understand that from ikkyu to shodan, the interval here is only a few months normally, so I can understand that if people focused on 1-3 for shodan they might not be up to par for 4 & 5 at shodan, but then there is a year from shodan to nidan and 2 years from nidan to sandan.... I just don't understand it to be honest.
I might get it if they at least mixed up what you do, say 1,3, & 5 or 3-5 or some other combination at shodan instead of always 1-3.

[Kendoka]

Recently, the number of kata required to pass here has changed. ...
Is this happening any where else?

Same in Australia.

Richard

[JSchmidt]

!!!
... Then I spent a whole month on #4-5, and later found out I have wasted quite a lot of my time

Do you really consider time spent on kata for being wasted?

Jakob

[Yowai]

Do you really consider time spent on kata for being wasted?

Jakob

Absolutely yes.

[supernils]

I thought that "IMHO" meant "In my HUMBLE opinion". But maybe I was wrong.

[Eldritch Knight]

For my 1st kyu exam (in japan) I hadn't mastered the kata yet, and though I made a few errors, the judges let me redo the kata (with a few pointers) and then passed me. They told me that while they would pass me that time, that I should definetely get it down by the shoudan exam or they might not be so lenient.

[lwegerich]

Watched some 1st kyu gradings last weekend. They started with kata. After doing all 7 forms 2 of them had to redo the 7th form. After this second try they were told they failed the whole grading because there was a wrong step in it twice. They were not allowed to proceed the other stuff of the grading.

Senseis were a 6th dan and some 4th dans. This was in Germany.

[Kirin]

here in USA, most kata shinsa follows after jitugi part.
1 kyu- 3 bon
1 dan- 5 hon
2 dan- 7 hon
3 dan up - 7 + 3

all depends on the judging panel, sometimes they let you 'do-over'
(just once on 1 kata, and panel makes that decision)

also about 1.5yrs ago, AUSKF rule change and now, if you fail kata test, you can re-test just kata within 1 yr period.

Anyrates, kata is not something you just do at testing.
Kata has all 'reai' (concept and application) of kendo. You all should practice at regular bases, not just before testing :angry: