Don't you feel uneasy doing tai-a-tari with a man?

[Airin]

During kirikaeshi, I feel really uneasy to do tai-a-tari, if I'm sparring with a man. Friday sempai told me I always have my arms too far from my body and so I don't push with the body. I know that is my mistake, but still I feel so uncomfortable to jump against a man in that way.
I know it sounds stupid, but does any other woman have the same problem?

[rottunpunk]

ive grown up doing judo with blokes, so that sort of thing doesnt really bother me.
so im not sure if i can be much help im afraid
have you told your sempai how it makes you feel?
or just make a joke out of it by saying you cant get in closer as your boobs are too big and get in the way?
though if its inhibiting your kendo, perhaps it is just something you need to get over?
:p

[lucy]

Maybe it would help you to think of your aite not as a man but simply a partner? Maybe it sounds stupid, but just think that once you step into the dojo everyone is just a kendo partner... Maybe, if you try to keep the whole gender thing out of it, you won't feel so uncomfortable anymore...

I can't say that I'm having similar problems, but I'm pretty new in bogu, so I don't have much experience. ;)
Not very helpful, I suppose...

[Alison2805]

During kirikaeshi, I feel really uneasy to do tai-a-tari, if I'm sparring with a man. Friday sempai told me I always have my arms too far from my body and so I don't push with the body. I know that is my mistake, but still I feel so uncomfortable to jump against a man in that way.
I know it sounds stupid, but does any other woman have the same problem?

Something I try to do in everything (kendo, work, social situations), is when I find myself feeling uncomfortable or embarressed: DO IT MORE!! :dead: Ask the male sempai that you feel MOST uncomfortable whith to do it to you all the time. Then everyone else will be a breeze. Im serious!! Try it!

Force yourself to do it and soon it wont bother you anymore. The more you shy away from taiatari, the longer it will take you to get used to it, and fearing it will distract you from kicking the guys ass. :tongue:

Us girls do have some advantages in taiatari if youre short - if you keep you hands down near your hara, tall guys have to push from lower than they want to - which not only can feel wierd for them, but if you are lucky could make them lean forward a little, opening up men.

Can someone post the 11(?) things kirikaishi is supposed to teach you? I cant remember them off the top of my head..

[namabiru]

Not so much. You're wearing a do, after all. And as the only bogu-wearing female in my small dojo, I've never had a male make a comment about tai-a-tari in this way.

[yahiko_venom]

I also have this problem, though im not a girl, it still feels wierd forcing myself onto people.

My only advice is to get it out of your head durring mokuso, thats what its there for :smiley:

[bullet08]

don't think of them as males/men/boys. think of them more like cardboard cut out. or maybe rack of rib.. or something. of course, make sure to respect that cardborad cut out.. more like moving target. and just pound on them. don't think too much.

pete

[Paburo]

i sometimes also feel very uneasy taiataring with boys.... :p

aaaah i'd only rather tai atari cute girls... lol :D

but naah, that's not gonna happen. so i just forget about it altogether and take off all sexual, religious or violence related associations i might make to tai-atari. it's just a push between two armors...

it's nothing dirty, immoral, or sinful my friend....

[Airin]

have you told your sempai how it makes you feel?
I thought about that, but telling him made me to feel more uneasy.


Maybe it would help you to think of your aite not as a man but simply a partner?
I understand, but I can't. If the guy is a fifteen boy there's ok: I could almost be is mum. But if he's older than 25, it's different. I get even uneasy that my aite steadily looks into my eyes.


You're wearing a do, after all
Uhm, yes, but the only adult male who usually comes so near is my husband. It's a very overrunning of a taboo zone.


it's nothing dirty, immoral, or sinful my friend....
I rationally think that and I start well, but as I'm going ahead my instictive part yells: "What are you doing? Keep at the safe distance!" and my arms automatically shift far from my body.
How to keep this voice silent?

[Neil Gendzwill]

So this isn't about fear of injury, but more being uncomfortable with men in your personal space? Perhaps as you gain more experience and get to know your dojomates better, you will become more comfortable. It can be kind of a brother-sister relationship.

[lucy]

I get even uneasy that my aite steadily looks into my eyes.


I know that one... At first it was strange, but I have gotten used to it after some intense iaido practise... Sensei: "Don't blink, look into each other's eyes at all times!"

But sorry, I'm getting off topic.

I'm sure you'll find a way to get used to it. How long have you been doing kendo, if you don't mind me asking?

[Old Warrior]

I don't get this thread. Maybe it's because I'm an old married fart. I have stepdaughters, granddaughters, sisters in law, old female friends (wives of friends), a mother in law, etc. When we meet I expect a real hug and a sincere kiss on the cheek. Some of these women actually prefer a kiss on lips.

At this point in my life there is absolutely nothing sexual that crosses anyones mind when we are extending sincere affection deriving from relationships that have existed for decades. I might add that even the men in my life with whom I have decades of shared life experiences - we hug each other.

Similarly, how can anyone seriously do kendo, if their libido is involved. It is hard enough to worry about seme, tenouche, waza etc. to have any room in my conscious or unconscious thoughts relating to sex. I can understand if these thoughts creep in at social affairs, but it is beyond me how one can be bouting with someone and let their mind wander to prurient places. The higher ranked women, I know, would pound you into the floor.

[bullet08]

I don't get this thread. Maybe it's because I'm an old married fart. I have stepdaughters, granddaughters, sisters in law, old female friends (wives of friends), a mother in law, etc. When we meet I expect a real hug and a sincere kiss on the cheek. Some of these women actually prefer a kiss on lips.

At this point in my life there is absolutely nothing sexual that crosses anyones mind when we are extending sincere affection deriving from relationships that have existed for decades. I might add that even the men in my life with whom I have decades of shared life experiences - we hug each other.

Similarly, how can anyone seriously do kendo, if their libido is involved. It is hard enough to worry about seme, tenouche, waza etc. to have any room in my conscious or unconscious thoughts relating to sex. I can understand if these thoughts creep in at social affairs, but it is beyond me how one can be bouting with someone and let their mind wander to prurient places. The higher ranked women, I know, would pound you into the floor.

maybe cultural difference?

pete

[lucy]

I don't get this thread. Maybe it's because I'm an old married fart. I have stepdaughters, granddaughters, sisters in law, old female friends (wives of friends), a mother in law, etc. When we meet I expect a real hug and a sincere kiss on the cheek. Some of these women actually prefer a kiss on lips.

At this point in my life there is absolutely nothing sexual that crosses anyones mind when we are extending sincere affection deriving from relationships that have existed for decades. I might add that even the men in my life with whom I have decades of shared life experiences - we hug each other.

Similarly, how can anyone seriously do kendo, if their libido is involved. It is hard enough to worry about seme, tenouche, waza etc. to have any room in my conscious or unconscious thoughts relating to sex. I can understand if these thoughts creep in at social affairs, but it is beyond me how one can be bouting with someone and let their mind wander to prurient places. The higher ranked women, I know, would pound you into the floor.

The way I understand it it's not about sex at all, but simply being to used to a large personal space no one else usually invades - except for the husband/close friends.
And, apart from that, you also mentioned
sincere affection deriving from relationships that have existed for decades

Sure, with good friends it's normal to get closer, but I can imagine that someone who is maybe a bit reserved feels uncomfortable getting closer to other people he/she doesn't know very well.
I think Neil put it very well. :)

[bianchi]

There is also the other side... I feel a little uneasy to taiatari with women because I need to be more careful with my strength. I hate when I see girls flying out of the court into the ground because a big man goes for a full strength taiatari in mixed taikais.

So I don´t taiatari with women like I do with men because we have very thin girls at our dojo and if I go with full strength I can hurt then... I am 30cm taller than most of then... So I do proper taiatari with girls, but I try to equilibrate my strength with their strength and it is hard to find this equilibrium... If you go too strong, you can hurt then, if you go too weak, they will not practice properly...

And by the way... I don´t see anything sexual about taiatari with bogu... It never crossed my mind...

[Inner_Silence]

i think yoy should ask to the other guys to...

personally, talking as a guy... i really dont care when im in taiatari with a girl, first of all becouse she is wearing bogu and im wearing kote... the posibility of touching "something" is less than zero, so, sincerily if there is something i am not thinking when im on tai atari is on that girl's boobs...
when the girl is newbie and she isnt wearing bogu yet... of course i am more carefull but thats only becouse i dont want to hurt her if she hits me hard on taiatari with her body (ive heard that a tsuba hit in a boob can really hurt) and of course i dont want her to feel unconfortable during practice, of course if accidentaly i touch something (which has happened) y really dont make a big deal out of it and the girl understand that i really dont care...

besides if i want to date her ill ask after the practice haha ;)

i think that you give more importance about getting touched than the other beople about touching you

[lucy]

Honestly, guys, don't try to read anything sexual into it, I don't think that's her problem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I still think Neil put it well, and I completely agree with bianchi:

And by the way... I don´t see anything sexual about taiatari with bogu... It never crossed my mind... Today was the first time you made me aware of how it might look to "innocent" bystanders without any kendo experience... :D

[Airin]

So this isn't about fear of injury, but more being uncomfortable with men in your personal space?
Yes, I'm not worry to be injuried: once I was hit with bokken quite hard during kata, but I don't feel afraid or something.


The way I understand it it's not about sex at all, but simply being to used to a large personal space no one else usually invades - except for the husband/close friends.
Yes, that's basically the problem.


How long have you been doing kendo, if you don't mind me asking?
I began kendo in september 2005, but in bogu just in september 2006. Last year I hadn't this problem since we never do tai-a-tari with aite who doesn't wear bogu.


Perhaps as you gain more experience and get to know your dojomates better, you will become more comfortable.
At the beginning I thought so, but I'm praticing with the same people since more than one year. I think at them as comrades.


When we meet I expect a real hug and a sincere kiss on the cheek. Some of these women actually prefer a kiss on lips.
Really?! :eek: I seldom kiss my own husband on lips and I'm not used to greet male friends or relatives kissing them, just in some special occasions. Anyway, in those occasions always on cheek and with a few distance between bodies, so we must lean forward to reach other one's cheek. Surely we don't touch with bodies, at most with arms or hands.



the posibility of touching "something" is less than zero
If you think to the upper part of the body you're right. But it happened that we touched with knee and I felt so embarrassed! :redface:


i think that you give more importance about getting touched than the other beople about touching you
That's sure! They haven't problems to push and I almost fall more than once :D

[bianchi]

Really?! :eek: I seldom kiss my own husband on lips and I'm not used to greet male friends or relatives kissing them, just in some special occasions. Anyway, in those occasions always on cheek and with a few distance between bodies, so we must lean forward to reach other one's cheek. Surely we don't touch with bodies, at most with arms or hands.

Really? Maybe it is cultural as someone said... Are you really italian? I am asking because I have italian relatives and they greet me with kisses on the cheek... Even the male relatives!!!

At Brazil males don't kiss each other, but it is common to kiss a woman at the cheek as a greeting even when you don't know her. Males just shake hands. But friends like to give nice hugs! But don't worry if you are coming for the 2009 WKC, the person must lean forward to be kissed! ;)

And in this spirit, I wish to share this nice vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

Hugs for everyone! :wink:

[Alison2805]

Really?! :eek: I seldom kiss my own husband on lips and I'm not used to greet male friends or relatives kissing them, just in some special occasions. Anyway, in those occasions always on cheek and with a few distance between bodies, so we must lean forward to reach other one's cheek. Surely we don't touch with bodies, at most with arms or hands.:D

If youve only been in bogu for a little while, dont worry! You will get used to it in time.

Its so interesting how different some families are. I kiss my brother/sister/grandparents on the lips, when my sister breastfeeds in front of us noone cares, its all fine to us. I hug and kiss all my friends and so on.

BUT Ive gone out with a guy who freaked out when my brother and sisters went to hug him the first time they met.

If he could get used to my brother giving him a big sloppy kiss, you can get used to taiatari! :silly:

[David]

If it's just a case of needing your space, remember, that's what your shinai is for. =)

[Inner_Silence]

Really? Maybe it is cultural as someone said... Are you really italian? I am asking because I have italian relatives and they greet me with kisses on the cheek... Even the male relatives!!!

At Brazil males don't kiss each other, but it is common to kiss a woman at the cheek as a greeting even when you don't know her. Males just shake hands. But friends like to give nice hugs! But don't worry if you are coming for the 2009 WKC, the person must lean forward to be kissed! ;)

And in this spirit, I wish to share this nice vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

Hugs for everyone! :wink:

the same here

we use to kiss on the cheek all girls, even if we dont know them. in fact, girls always find it a bit rude if you dont kiss them and they give you the face ¬¬ and find you weird. thats both man-girl or girl-girl meeting (anyway this is all cassual, you wont be kissing your boss when you first meet him/her)
man-man mting is just shake hands

friends(when they are both man) always skake hands, usually hugs, and sometimes when they are really close frends (like all life frends) a kiss on the cheek... everything else from that its just gay.
friends (boy-girl) always kiss on the cheek, also usually hugs. i tend to kiss my girlfriends (friends, not couple) on the forehead and hold hands, but thats just me...

[bullet08]

no kisses, and no hugs. just polite bow. and greetings between relative, or friends. of course, there might be polite punches to arm, shoulder, chest, face.. kick to the groin.. anyway.. hand shake is also good. i'm not use to hugs and kisses. i don't think too many koreans go around kissing people unless it's for their kids, or very very young relatives.

pete

[Spendius]

I just feel the same as Bianchi: I don't have much experience, and am trying to grasp the concept of taiatari, but don't feel so right about throwing my body full speed against a tiny woman, especially in jigeiko. OTOH, I feel it might be disrespectful to "back up" against somebody much stronger than me, and lately we have been practicing taiatari a lot a the dojo.
I think the problem if you're afraid of taiatari is that you won't be able to recieve taiatari correctly.

I'm also surprised that you're so distant in your social relationship as an italian, but I'm not here to judge.

[Airin]

Really? Maybe it is cultural as someone said... Are you really italian? I am asking because I have italian relatives and they greet me with kisses on the cheek... Even the male relatives!!!

I'm also surprised that you're so distant in your social relationship as an italian, but I'm not here to judge.
Yes, I know we Italians are known as "warm" people. But, even if Italy isn't a wide country, the regional differences are quite strong. At my place, we are much "colder" than in other Regions. For example, in my church most of people come from South Italy and women greet other women (not men) with kisses. I'm often feeling uncomfortable to all that costant hugging, touching and kissing. Sometimes I try to shift away and they friendly mock me about this!
I remember years ago we guested in our school some Belgian boys and girls and we were all amazed how the schoolmates greeted each other with kisses every morning, since we never, ever kissed schoolmates. Even couples were criticized if they didn't keep apart to kiss.
I'm not surpirsed that your Italian relatives kiss you when you meet them. In fact, meeting a relatives after many months is one of few occasion you kiss to greet (at least in my own Region!)
But I'm going OT.


I think the problem if you're afraid of taiatari is that you won't be able to recieve taiatari correctly.
Well, I've more problem to do it than to receive it. In fact, if I received it I must just wait and so it's more easy for me not shift away, even if the contact is uncomfortable. But if I must do it, it's really hard to force me to jump against a man. I irrationally feel it as "inappropriate" behaviour, also if I'm rationally aware that is an exercise like anyone else inside a dojo.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

Image how uncomfortable some men are tai-atari-ing other men :p

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

when you go to train, you leave certain things outside the dojo, it's just the mature thing to do. while you obsess over this contrived idea that there is something sexual involved in your kendo training, you are robbing your dojo-mates the opportunity to train properly. so stop wasting their time.
you are artificially creating the sexual tension that bothers you so much all by yourself. if you have such strong issues with personal space you shouldn't be doing a martial art that requires you to train with others. if i'm coming off as harsh it's because i simply have no patience for this type of self-centered behaviour. you are 30 years old, it's time to grow up.

[namabiru]

The only thing that's maybe a bit *tough* with tai-a-tari is that I practice with a lot of big aggressive men, so if they come at me full-on it's hard to receive properly. Last night we had someone who occasionally joins us come to practice, and I hate to say it but he's a bit like a bull in a china shop anyway--he's one of those who pushes people, etc.--, and the first time he came up to me full-on I almost got knocked on my arse.

So I do feel bad, as the guys don't come full-on to me, they usually stop themselves a bit. I feel bad because maybe they're not getting good training by having to stop so they don't completely knock me over.

I've tried a variety of things--changing my kamae stance just for this drill so I can take hits better, stepping back with my left foot to give me balance, etc. It's tough, though.

That's all I find, really. But it's not an issue unless I make it one, and I'm not. Just keep working at it, is all.

[bullet08]

when you go to train, you leave certain things outside the dojo, it's just the mature thing to do. while you obsess over this contrived idea that there is something sexual involved in your kendo training, you are robbing your dojo-mates the opportunity to train properly. so stop wasting their time.
you are artificially creating the sexual tension that bothers you so much all by yourself. if you have such strong issues with personal space you shouldn't be doing a martial art that requires you to train with others. if i'm coming off as harsh it's because i simply have no patience for this type of self-centered behaviour. you are 30 years old, it's time to grow up.

i don't think kyudo is all that fun. but that's my personal opinion.

pete

[Paikea]

when you go to train, you leave certain things outside the dojo, it's just the mature thing to do. while you obsess over this contrived idea that there is something sexual involved in your kendo training, you are robbing your dojo-mates the opportunity to train properly. so stop wasting their time.
you are artificially creating the sexual tension that bothers you so much all by yourself. if you have such strong issues with personal space you shouldn't be doing a martial art that requires you to train with others. if i'm coming off as harsh it's because i simply have no patience for this type of self-centered behaviour. you are 30 years old, it's time to grow up.Nochi-san, perhaps only decaf after the middle of the week? :wink:

[bianchi]

So I do feel bad, as the guys don't come full-on to me, they usually stop themselves a bit. I feel bad because maybe they're not getting good training by having to stop so they don't completely knock me over.

Don´t feel bad! It is a practice of strength control for us. Taiatari is important but I think Kendo is not about trowing people... As I said before, I hate to see big men trowing women to the ground!

Of course, over time, the girls get stronger and better prepared for taiatari with better stance and I try to find their limits increasing my taiatari strength day by day until I know how each girl can handle it. And I must say that there are some girls that can face a taiatari better than many men in my dojo! :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

[snip]you are artificially creating the sexual tension that bothers you so much all by yourself. [snip] you are 30 years old, it's time to grow up.This is quite harsh. She clearly wants to change, she's asked us for advice, and ingrained cultural or other stuff is getting in her way. Asking her to "grow up" is about as useful as asking an arachnophobic to just squish the damn spider. In fact, I doubt a bunch of lunk-headed kendoka are going to be of much help to her at all. Perhaps a good councellor could help.

[bianchi]

I think that only time will help you Airin... Remember the sensation you had at the first day on a new job or on a first class at school... You just end up getting used to it...

Neil, I agree with you and I think she asked us because maybe she wanted a technical workaround that I really don´t think exists.

Maybe thinking about sutemi (yeah, I´m obsessed with it! :D) can help... You are committed to the strike but there is "something" on your way. You taiatari not because you want to taiatari and you are not "jumping against a man". You in fact are trying to hit him and to finish your cut with tae. Taiatari is just a possible consequence of this act. Thinking this way may help you to forget this concern because there is no space for other thoughts when you concentrate on the strike.

Again, please correct me if I´m wrong guys!

Cheers

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

i don't think kyudo is all that fun. but that's my personal opinion.

pete

uh? sorry i don't get it.

[Airin]

when you go to train, you leave certain things outside the dojo, it's just the mature thing to do. while you obsess over this contrived idea that there is something sexual involved in your kendo training, you are robbing your dojo-mates the opportunity to train properly. so stop wasting their time.
you are artificially creating the sexual tension that bothers you so much all by yourself. if you have such strong issues with personal space you shouldn't be doing a martial art that requires you to train with others. if i'm coming off as harsh it's because i simply have no patience for this type of self-centered behaviour. you are 30 years old, it's time to grow up.
Sorry if I bothered you, I didn't mean. But I thought that overcoming some shynesses was part of the training (and maybe I began a martial art to gain self-confidence ;) )
I was just asking how other people overcame the problem to do the same :happy:

[bullet08]

uh? sorry i don't get it.


if you have such strong issues with personal space you shouldn't be doing a martial art that requires you to train with others..

kyudo.. doesn't require contact with others. there won't be any issue with personal space.

pete

[mingshi]

Here our coach made us pair up and do ai-men-taiatari-men for 5 times. The person who got pushed and never came back can't take a break and has to go for another round... The last person standing (i.e. who always stepped back during taiatari) has to do some more crazy punishment kakari-keiko.

I was told that proper taiatari will improve your overall body balance, and also help you to follow through the cut (as some like to cut and stand there).

Needless to say I was almost always on the pair left to the final round of the forementioned exercise. I always get the bigger/taller partner and they always pushes me off balance - definitely my fault.

Oh, did I say women trains separately from men as a group?

[Ignatz]

One of the lessons we learn from the third kata is that I can go forward faster and stronger than you can go backwards.
In keiko if I were to attack men and you are clever you might lean back or step back causing me to miss but when the freight train hits you then you might reconsider doing that again.
You might try to back pedal but I'm pretty sure that I will hit your men the second time or the third time or when you run out of room you are going out of bounds.

If you go forward and imagine dropping your center of gravity to a spot a few inches below your belly button the instant you make contact you might loosen some fillings (just kidding) but you most likely will not get moved back or knocked down.

If you attack men and fail but do not go through then it is easy for me to knock you back or down. It is like driving a car through a curve and taking your foot off the gas in the middle. We call that "reaping the reward of the faint hearted".

Tai atari teaches you to go forward so you are not off balance or vulnerable or faint hearted.

Usually whenI receive I will put up the wall the first two times then on the last two or three will release slightly after the impact so that I get moved back slightly. I think this gives the attacker positive reinforcement.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

Sorry if I bothered you, I didn't mean. But I thought that overcoming some shynesses was part of the training (and maybe I began a martial art to gain self-confidence ;) )
I was just asking how other people overcame the problem to do the same :happy:

that's great that you are trying to improve yourself and all, but it sounds like you are doing it at the expense of others.

[pgsmith]

Airin,
If at all possible, I would advise you to begin training in Brazilian jujitsu. If it is not available, Japanese jujutsu or even judo would be helpful. While these have no direct bearing upon your kendo, BJJ is a close quarters defense art that specializes in ground fighting. It would only take a few weeks for you to separate what occurs in the dojo from the rest of your social life. Lying underneath someone that is trying to wrap you up like a pretzel will quickly cure any fears of innapropriateness that you may have with kendo.

Cheers!

[Paikea]

Oh, did I say women trains separately from men as a group?Where is the fun in that? :cool2:

[Alison2805]

that's great that you are trying to improve yourself and all, but it sounds like you are doing it at the expense of others.

So someone finds a technique difficult. Thats nothing to get nasty over. Doesnt everyone has something in kendo, (a waza, tsuki, hiki, whatever) that they find difficult to do and need to work on?? Sounds pretty normal to me.


Good on her for asking for advice and continuing to do something she finds difficult. Everyone here knows people who have quit kendo for a lot less. Particularly girls.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

So someone finds a technique difficult. Thats nothing to get nasty over. Doesnt everyone has something in kendo, (a waza, tsuki, hiki, whatever) that they find difficult to do and need to work on?? Sounds pretty normal to me.

Good on her for asking for advice and continuing to do something she finds difficult. Everyone here knows people who have quit kendo for a lot less. Particularly girls.

nothing nasty about it, i wrote that with blunt honesty, no sarcasm or insult intended. to me it didn't sound like she was asking for advice in her earlier posts, ...and i'm going to stop there. she should take some advice from your signature quote Alison.

[namabiru]

Sorry if I bothered you, I didn't mean. But I thought that overcoming some shynesses was part of the training (and maybe I began a martial art to gain self-confidence ;) )
I was just asking how other people overcame the problem to do the same :happy:


Oh. Oh, SHYNESS. Why didn't you just say you were having some 'being shy' issues, like reluctance to kiai, or being afraid of being knocked over during tai-a-tari? The way you put it, you made it sound like you were afraid of being touched.

Well, you just have to find courage is all. No real advice available. Suck it up and go, I guess.

[tamaki]

many of the girls are shy in the beginning,(especially with kiai).my opinion is ,just forget that you are a girl in the dojo,or think that in a way that you want them to say "that aggressive bitch!"(do that only in the dojo,ok?hahah). its just you pushing your opponent,which you have to strike.if you start thinking in gender terms ,and all these things,it gets weird,of course.What if he is your ex,the guy you slept with once,a guy you like,a guy who likes you but you dont??There might be some of them,eventually,if you want to socialize with kendo ppl.You have to taiatari them anyway..:pthey're just "the opponent". get strict with yourself.the road of our kendo training/life has sooo many difficulties,I dont think you should let the gender thing be one of them;)

by the way I remember doing aikido,having to do irimi nage with some random guy and having his head over the breast..or koshi nage,when if you catch him wrong you can have his *** near your butt..yeah thats more difficult,given that theres actual physical contact.but still, in the dojo all the sexual thoughts should be left out...just laugh about it:p eventually you think of your dojomates, like a family(inside the dojo,at least..)

[Bokushingu]

tough one arin. i would say just stick with it. you could try not tai-a-tari except when required like with kirikaeshi. i notice some women dont tai-a-tari that close. they come in and transfer their energy into their kote which colides.

personally, like Neil said, i dont think there much advice that any kendoka can offer. since it is a matter of personal comfort level.
i don't think counseling will help because it really isn't a problem many people feel uneasy with people that are in their personal space or touching rather it be sports or whatever.
whatever you find works, good luck to you.

personaly i dont like to tai-atari women or older men cause i feel i come in to strongly.

[theicychameleon]

I don't do kendo personally (the iaido dojos much closer in dublin) but from what I've read I really don't think airin was referring to anything sexual, just a change in perceptions of personal space. I know that one lecturer of mine who moved here from california commented that there was a much bigger sense of personal space here (and in the brittish isles) than where she came from. Is it the same in italy? That said, sword fighting is martial, its an assault, maybe the need to deal with an attack trancends personal space. But I wonder how samurai women coped. From what I've read pre meiji japan was hugely socially conservative (where women could be executed by their husbands for being alone with a man in a room), I wonder did this type of face extend to combat. Maybe thats why they had naginata. :) On the other hand it sounds like you get quite defensive when men get too close to you during combat. Perhaps you could use it to motivate you and make the fight more meaningful.

(this was written by someone with no knowlege of kendo, please take with a few desertspoonfuls of salt :D)

[uToRz]

when i first started kendo, there were many things on my mind like "what ifs" and "what nots"... and some of them was due unease i felt when against a female... but in the end, i concentrated on trying to do whats right..and i guess... if u concentrate enough, you dont have the capacity in your head to think of anything else... all i wanted was to do it correctly, spot and work on my mistakes.. and before long, i dont even really realise whether the person in front of me is male or female. All i tot was how to deliver my kendo as porperly as i can..and how to recieve as porperly as i can for the person.. maybe thats why they said it is a discipline of the mind? mhmm but just my 2cents... being only in kendo for nigh a year, there is still much to learn and i find that i have too many things to think and work about in my kendo other that my personal unease... hope u get through it :) it is really rewarding when u look back and laugh at those things u were feeling weird at... i guess

[JByrd]

A lot of people find one or more things in Kendo make them feel uncomfortable. Many beginners who have come to my club over the years have had difficulty yelling loudly because they were always taught to be quiet, and even punished if they were not quiet. Some people cannot bring themselves to stand up straight and look another person in the eye because they feel it is disrespectful and confrontational, or may serve to bring unwanted attention and aggression toward them.

The only thing I can think of to tell people facing those difficulties is to just forget everything and do it anyway. Don't worry about what other people might think of you. Don't even worry about what you might think of yourself. Just put everything you have into action, holding nothing back. If you can do that, you will catch a glimpse of the most important thing that Kendo can show you: Your true self.

Good luck.

[Badja]

Personally I don't have a problem with tai-a-tari on the whole. I don't care who it is, I just get on with it whether it's a bloke or another woman. I'm quite beefy (Code for fat. lol) for a chick so I expect guys to treat me with the same attitude they treat their male opposition.:rambo:

I would only struggle with tai-a-tari if I did actually fancy the guy I was fencing. Luckily there is only one bloke I know who looks hot in bogu and luckily for me he's a visitor from another dojo and not a full time student. :redface:

[Atama]

I've never had an issue with ti-atari with the exception of thoes guys who have power issues and like try and push all 5'4" of me around....that I don't care for much as I'm very bull headed.

[kim]

Ti-atari is great as I hold my hands way lower than the guys comfort level(they are all arround six feet and i'm not quite five). Then with a little nudge I'm away and my shinai is bouncing off their kote or do..Shhh don't tell em...:devious:

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've never had an issue with ti-atari with the exception of thoes guys who have power issues and like try and push all 5'4" of me around....that I don't care for much as I'm very bull headed.Are you back in the dojo?

[Sherry Fulton]

When I first started kendo I did feel a bit odd doing taiatari - it was closer than felt comfortable getting with people who were essentially strangers. But once I actually started to think about the technique though - exactly what I was trying to do - it stopped feeling odd.

I started thinking about locking my elbows into my do, making sure my hands were in the proper position, my shinai was centered and most importantly, my timing was good, so I wasn't getting knocked all over the dojo by the guys. Keeping all those things straight in my head didn't give me any room to think about who I was doing taiatari with.

I also started to concentrate not on who I was doing taiatari with, but what I could do with it ... were they solid and planted and could I use them to bounce off of and do a back-up kote, men or do? Did they drift back and not give a solid target? Could I try and knock them off balance and use that to my advantage?

So bottom line - once I started concentrating on technique, taiatari stopped feeling odd.

Just my two cents worth.

Sherry Fulton
Edmonton Kendo & Naginata Club

[Kate]

This is a really difficult problem for some women and in my experience I'm afraid to say, sometimes there is no easy solution. There will always be differences in training styles, techniques and attitudes between men and women. I have trained with several Japanese women who are very accomplished kendoka and they tell me that not only is it impossible to ignore the differences but that to do so makes us weaker kendoka. Knowing our own strengths and weaknesses and learning how to judges those of others is a big part of kendo. If you feel that you are so uncomfortable with men in tai atari, even after significant practice at it, then you have to really look inside yourself to decide if this is for you. Sometimes kendo isn't for everyone. That said, if you feel afraid to meet men in competition, meet their eyes when you enter the dojo, or come too close to them when practicing waza then that problem lies within and really doesn't have much to do with kendo except that it has helped to show you a part of yourself you may not have even known existed. Do you really want to keep going with kendo?

[rainmaker]

hahaha~~~~~~~~~~~`:ditsy: :ditsy: :ditsy:

I don't know Old Warrior but your response was so funny somehow.. Just be aware of kiss on lips. That is how you end up with herpes... But your second point somehow make me depressed.... Thank God, to me everything is sexual for now...:rolleyes: ..


When we meet I expect a real hug and a sincere kiss on the cheek. Some of these women actually prefer a kiss on lips.

At this point in my life there is absolutely nothing sexual that crosses anyones mind

[Naginatagirl]

When I got into my first bogu class one of my sempai said I was doing tai atari wrong and decided to show me how. I spent the first 5 minutes very uncomfortable. I spent the next 20 being rammed repeatedly. ...sooo, all the discomfort was kinda just beaten outta me lol. Although I still don't like tai atari very much, it doesn't bother me anymore. That intro really desensitized me to it :hurt:

[Airin]

Ah, guys, do you want to know something funny?
In these last weeks, I've been very taken by worrying about taiatari and I've been always thinking how to do it at best. Last lesson, my sempai told my kirikaeshi had a lot of problems with balance, but not taiatari that was the only thing I was doing well...!! :eek:

I don't know if I must take this as good (resolved the taiatari thing, I can look forward for resolving the balance thing, too) or bad (I was too taken by a minor thing and I totally forget the more important one) :D

[lucy]

Ah, guys, do you want to know something funny?
In these last weeks, I've been very taken by worrying about taiatari and I've been always thinking how to do it at best. Last lesson, my sempai told my kirikaeshi had a lot of problems with balance, but not taiatari that was the only thing I was doing well...!! :eek:

I don't know if I must take this as good (resolved the taiatari thing, I can look forward for resolving the balance thing, too) or bad (I was too taken by a minor thing and I totally forget the more important one) :D

See? With time it all works out. :) Now you can work on your balance. :wink:

[Bokushingu]

Good For You, Arin :)

[Atama]

Are you back in the dojo?

Yep....after my knee surgery it turns out that Kendo hurts my knees way less than boxing.

[jaime_87]

im no expert on this topic or even in Kendo (begginers course starts in march), but i had the same problem when we would do partner work in karate (sometimes you end up in some very close positions or accidental touching). To begin with it was very uncomfotable because of that and i am not the sort of huggy/kissy person and i have a very wide personal space. Im not over it, but each time we had to do partner work that required closseness, when i began to get uncomfortable, i would deliberately stick it out for 5/10 seconds longer. i am still not comfortable with close contact in general but when it comes to training i am fine with it.

(i guess it also helps if my partner is being an ass and i am trying to make him uncomforable, if thats the case i am very stubborn and will stay close untill he backs away first.....)

This may not help you but i just though i would put a bit in since some people are not being that helpful... well gotta go

[KendoMom]

Good morning,

I choose to have no problem at all with it.

My philosophy is that should I ever be in a fight/battle/close quarters/etc., I will not have the luxury to say, excuse me, but you're crowding my space, please move.

Real life isn't that way....so I choose to train as close to real life as possible.

'course, this is probably why in my first real sparring, I chose to continue against a guy a foot taller, wider, and 48 times more skillful than me. The first bout left me shaken and suffused with pure fear (not fear of a 'bad guy', mind you - this person would have instantly gone lighter if I had asked, he's a great guy), but fear of "no matter what I do, I will be flattened into the ground and it will hurt!"

But then, you know...the next instant I consciously said to myself, I can DO this, I can fight thru my fear, and would you believe....I did. It was one of the most empowering moments of my life; never before did I conquer fear quite that way.

It also gave me a superb opportunity to talk to my kids about the importance of courage and not giving into fear. That was a very good teaching moment, indeed.

Enjoy,

Barbara

[Lady_Kitsune]

At first I felt all weird about it, but now I don't think oh Gosh this is a guy, I just think is a kenshi and he's practicing too...

[skilled]

To be Honest , you have the idea that your Sempai/Sensei is a Perv , do you? (sorry if I offend you) T_T.

So the Question should be ¿ How do I trust in My Sempai ? , you dont trust him or your partners. T_T xD

[ghostdancer]

Good morning,

I choose to have no problem at all with it.

My philosophy is that should I ever be in a fight/battle/close quarters/etc., I will not have the luxury to say, excuse me, but you're crowding my space, please move.

Real life isn't that way....so I choose to train as close to real life as possible.

'course, this is probably why in my first real sparring, I chose to continue against a guy a foot taller, wider, and 48 times more skillful than me. The first bout left me shaken and suffused with pure fear (not fear of a 'bad guy', mind you - this person would have instantly gone lighter if I had asked, he's a great guy), but fear of "no matter what I do, I will be flattened into the ground and it will hurt!"

But then, you know...the next instant I consciously said to myself, I can DO this, I can fight thru my fear, and would you believe....I did. It was one of the most empowering moments of my life; never before did I conquer fear quite that way.

It also gave me a superb opportunity to talk to my kids about the importance of courage and not giving into fear. That was a very good teaching moment, indeed.

Enjoy,

Barbara
great isnt it, well done

[futabachan]

Honestly, I have trouble assigning any human gender to an anyone who has their men on. To me, kendoka (and naginataka) in full bogu look like blue lizard creatures from outer space. Unless I know in advance whether someone is male or female (and our school is big, and I don't know most of the bogu people), I have difficulty telling the difference if I first encounter someone already suited up.

Of course, I spent a lot of time training at a Tae Kwon Do school fighting lots of guys with fairly heavy contact, so I might have somewhat atypical reactions....

[Alicia]

I think mingshi's suggestion was the best, if you have other things to think about like not going back and not wanting to be the last one, so you don't have to do kakarigeiko, then you won't be thinking if the space thing so much. When i first got into bogu, we had one training where we would go to do taiatare, then both people would fling arms open, so that you bump do (I think there was noone with a nice new shiny do that might have complained). That did feel a bit strange, as it is very close, but then when you go back to doing normal taitare, there is 4 hands and 2 shinais between you, it feels like you are miles away, in comparison. Maybe that would help, as someone else said, pushing your boundaries further so that when you don't go so far it doesn't feel that bad.

Sounds like you've got it sorted now anyway, good on you, i hate seeing girls quit, we need more girls!!

[Yulya]

I haven't done it much - not sure how to do it properly either, but I haven't even thought about it in an uncomfortable way. I have no problem attempting it even without do or kote on. I guess "blue lizard creatures" works. :laugh:

[Minamoto]

in a tai-atari with a bloke I'm too busy thinking about

1) Not getting hurt
2) Trying to strike an ippon

to worry about anything else...only after the keiko is ended, I sometimes realize that he was a gorgeous guy as well, but then it's too late!

[Miravil]

After 2 years of not been able to practice Kendo, taiatari is the least worries I have now.

I just can't wait to get back into Kendo practice. :D

[hasegawa201]

Hello all. Well I'm a girl and I've just started practicing in bogu recently.

I personally don't have a problem with tai-a-tari. I mean there's nothing sexual about it fearing I'll be touched or be in too close of a contact with a guy (hey, I don't mind that!)

What I'm actually afraid is that I don't have enough strength. My problem is that I'm a bit underweight. So when I face a bigger guy weighting an average say 170lbs and he's forcing himself onto me... I could get sent flying around the room! That's what I'm afraid of.. landing on my butt or something. When I'm in a tai-a-tari with a guy, all I think about is to not get pushed down and when to strike again.

[Paburo]

Hello all. Well I'm a girl and I've just started practicing in bogu recently.

I personally don't have a problem with tai-a-tari. I mean there's nothing sexual about it fearing I'll be touched or be in too close of a contact with a guy (hey, I don't mind that!)

What I'm actually afraid is that I don't have enough strength. My problem is that I'm a bit underweight. So when I face a bigger guy weighting an average say 170lbs and he's forcing himself onto me... I could get sent flying around the room! That's what I'm afraid of.. landing on my butt or something. When I'm in a tai-a-tari with a guy, all I think about is to not get pushed down and when to strike again.
but you don't need strenght! just need to learn how to keep your balance at all times imho. in kihon, keep the body in a vertical line, so even if youre pushed and moved away from your spot youre still balanced and in control. in shiai, learn to move to the sides quickly if the pushing starts. i know a couple small girls very talented at this okuriashi thing!! :D ultimately, blatant brute force only leads to hansoku. so if a guy is abusing his physical strenght in shiai against a little girl, he should be punished accordingly! (or i will! :D :D jk)

[hasegawa201]

but you don't need strenght! just need to learn how to keep your balance at all times imho. in kihon, keep the body in a vertical line, so even if youre pushed and moved away from your spot youre still balanced and in control. in shiai, learn to move to the sides quickly if the pushing starts. i know a couple small girls very talented at this okuriashi thing!! :D ultimately, blatant brute force only leads to hansoku. so if a guy is abusing his physical strenght in shiai against a little girl, he should be punished accordingly! (or i will! :D :D jk)

Hey thanks for the comment... balance eh? I'll keep that in mind.

Look at this video... I hope I won't encounter a guy like that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQDgRnlxtQ

[Tsunemori]

"I have been learning from the net. Its fun when you can get several friends together in one location for practice. I have previous Fencing experience, though the transition from Fencing to Kendo is difficult."

YouTube comments make me sad :\

[bobdonny]

Look at this video... I hope I won't encounter a guy like that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQDgRnlxtQ

Footwork.....
when he comes in hard, tai atari and step to the side, and let him run thru, at the end of the day he's just making himself loose balance, he is not even going for a point!

Or even hikiwaza as he does tai atari.

I find if you are going to do taiatari with someone of greater mass + momentum, you should a) drop your stance (lower your abdomen) b) put your left leg backwards about 3/4 inches and brace for impact c) apply tenouchi at point of impact, and a little push.

C is difficult to explain but its a similiar movement to when you strike your opponent but its when your tsuka meets theirs, its a feeling of ridgidity on impact then relaxation afterwards (as they bounce back) :)

[The great I AM]

Hey thanks for the comment... balance eh? I'll keep that in mind.

Look at this video... I hope I won't encounter a guy like that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQDgRnlxtQWhat was wrong with that? Looks like she knew what she was doing to me.....

I've seen girls get muscled around a bit here since I got to Japan, but not witnessed anything hideous. (Yet, I hasten to add though). Sure they get pushed around abit from time to time, but generally I don't see anything to worry about as far as roughness goes. Maybe I'm not practising in the right places. I have a feeling though that the sorts of places where you might see that kind of thing are places where it can happen to anyone.

[Paburo]

Hey thanks for the comment... balance eh? I'll keep that in mind.

Look at this video... I hope I won't encounter a guy like that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQDgRnlxtQ

ooh, but i've seen a lot worse than this! granted, the guy is a bit of a moron for blatantly pushing that way after cuts.... but i think the girl is not bad. quick and agressive. but look at second 10 for instance. she kinda gets ran over. still keeps balance though, which is good. but on second 19 the guy does exactly the very same "men-uchi then i'm going to push/run over you" thing, and the girl just stays there waiting for the push?? why???? havent you learned from 10 secs before he's doing the same thing over and over??? :D i think at her skill she should have enough reflexes and speed to move out of the way, the guy is not coming in *that* fast... AND if he is using brutish force, he is most likely insecure of winning with his speed and technique alone.......

[H.Sandsleth]

At both points she has her hands up but no forward momentum. If she wanted to lure him in and do counters, she should be much more aggressive than that. The guy attacked the openings and followed through in sort of a clumsy brutish way, but if she had fallen on her ass in those cirumstances it would have been her own fault. IMHO.

[Spendius]

What was wrong with that? Looks like she knew what she was doing to me.....


That was you Gibbo ? I thought you were bigger...

[bobdonny]

I once fought against a person several dans higher than me (in an international event) with a knee injury. At every tsubazerai i came striaght back to isoko itto no maai. I didnt push hard or go agressive on him or try hiki waza as I didnt think it fair.

There are many ways to win a fight, I quite rather the fair ways. I'd rather win with a good waza than win with agression, who everyone is different.