Ducking

[Old Warrior]

What is the official opinion or general consensus of relying on head movement as a defense. Now that I am the dojang "nito guy", I find many of my oponents who have their shinai tied up by my shoto rely on what I call "The Bobble Head Defense". What I want to know is this common sense, good kendo, on their part, or is it really bad form.

My second question is how am I perceived when the opponent uses the "Bobble Head Defense" and I wind up hitting their shoulder. At first I felt terrible, but on reflection, I don't think a controlled cut that misses because the opponent ducked, ought to subject the attacker to criticsm for anything except the failure of the attack.

[dorkusxmaximus]

do you think you can tsuki them, ow? their neck isn't going anywhere. oh wait, are you allowed to tsuki other kenshi :ponder:?

[sminki]

ahh... the question for the ages...

Personally, I feel that ducking and tilting head to the side to not get hit IS mostly bad kendo. I know a lot of sensei and students who take the "purist" view of "If you get struck with a sword on your shoulder, do you not get critically injured?" I mostly agree with it and as a matter of principle, I would rather beat someone (or get beaten) on maai and seme as opposed to resorting to ducking and tilting.

Having said that, as a practical matter, it IS done in shiai and even every day ji-geiko. You can't help but to admit that it IS instinctive to duck and tilt one's head out of the way of a striking sword. I'm sure if we had a choice between the two, we would gladly take the sword to the shoulder vs. sword to the head.

So as with most things in kendo, this is a personal thing and a conceptual thing without an answer which applies to 100% of situations. I feel that if one constantly and consistently and habitually resort to ducking and tilting, he/she is just substituting bad form for bad kendo which is a lose-lose situation as far as I'm concerned. If it's done as an absolute last resort in a shiai, I can't say that I'll necessarily accuse that person of bad kendo.

So my personal answer - I guess it's acceptable withing certain boundaries, but no one should make a habit out of it.

[Hongsermeier]

ahh... the question for the ages...

Personally, I feel that ducking and tilting head to the side to not get hit IS mostly bad kendo. I know a lot of sensei and students who take the "purist" view of "If you get struck with a sword on your shoulder, do you not get critically injured?" I mostly agree with it and as a matter of principle, I would rather beat someone (or get beaten) on maai and seme as opposed to resorting to ducking and tilting.

Having said that, as a practical matter, it IS done in shiai and even every day ji-geiko. You can't help but to admit that it IS instinctive to duck and tilt one's head out of the way of a striking sword. I'm sure if we had a choice between the two, we would gladly take the sword to the shoulder vs. sword to the head.

So as with most things in kendo, this is a personal thing and a conceptual thing without an answer which applies to 100% of situations. I feel that if one constantly and consistently and habitually resort to ducking and tilting, he/she is just substituting bad form for bad kendo which is a lose-lose situation as far as I'm concerned. If it's done as an absolute last resort in a shiai, I can't say that I'll necessarily accuse that person of bad kendo.

So my personal answer - I guess it's acceptable withing certain boundaries, but no one should make a habit out of it.

I must agree. As for the tsuki, I did see one match in the US Championships when one kenshi kept tilting his head. He lost to a BEAUTIFULL tsuki. The loser of the match was a former US WKC team member and the winner was just on the team this year. :cross_eye

[misterkurukuru]

I do head fakes and i learned not to tilt my head side to side. I still do it, but when i do i always hit myself on the mengane and do rei to the person that i am fighting ( its to say "sorry" for doing bad kendo). I hate the "if it hit you in the shoulder " POV. what about kote and do??? if you miss them( arm pit/funny bone), wouldnt the guy still get hurt/killed? When you do keiko, even if you get hit, you must not show fear by ducking around. if you duck and stuff, it shows that you lost in the kokoro battle part of kendo...which is more important then getting beat by a lucky hit. ALSO if the person you are fighting has BAD kendo; when you stand straight and dont move your head, usually thier shinai will not hit you in the RIGHT way and they will feel crappy because they couldnt hit an open men :wink:

[dorkusxmaximus]

I remember a sensei from Kanagawa mentioned something about tilting heads or bobble-heads. He said to just take the hit. The teacher from Kanagawa said more, but it's kind of hard to recall exactly what he said that day. ohh my memory sucks. :down:

[JSchmidt]

I remember one practice, where the guy keep tilting his head, so I was hitting him around the ear everytime...and he complained about it!!.

But yeah..I duck and dodge occasionally....I'm trying to get rid of it, but it'll take awhile...but I certainly dont whine when I get hit on the ear/temple/etc when doing so!.

Jakob

[xvikingx]

I had a guy once who ducked and turned his head to avoid getting hit, and would then in turn stop pratice and complain about getting hit in the ear. That was incentive to start hitting harder.
I used to bob and weave but getting hit in odd places quickly remedied that. If you do ugly kendo thats what you get.

[sminki]

I hate the "if it hit you in the shoulder " POV. what about kote and do??? if you miss them( arm pit/funny bone), wouldnt the guy still get hurt/killed?

Absolutely. So the "if it hit you in the shoulder" argument (which ironically, you hate) in fact works for kote and do too. It just happens that not as many people try to not get scored on by dodging the body to take the hit with the armpit or moving the arm to take the hit with the funny bone :cheerful: . Dodging/tilting the head to avoid the men point and taking the shinai on the shoulder by the men wings doesn't hurt as much so you see it more often.

I do agree with the part about losing the kokoro (heart/mind for those of you who don't know Japanese) part of the battle if you show fear of being hit and start ducking, etc. It makes you look weak and undignified.

Honestly, sometimes if someone does the dodging/tilting head thing too much, I make a point of axing the $#@! out of his shoulder.

[justforkendo]

It's natural to duck or tilt your head out of the way, but it is something that that needs to be stopped. Bubble heads cannot watch their opponets properly therefore they have a slower responce for a counter attack. They need to use thier legs and bodies to avoid the attack whilst keeping good eye contact. If they can do this they will be set-up for a nice counter attack. If you cant do this, take the hit and learn.

[Old Warrior]

I guess I take from the thoughtful replies that, in perfect kendo, the opponent should either strike first, perform a subtle movement with good form that causes one to miss or do an advanced waza such as a deflection and strike. "Rope a dope" type evasion may be effective to avoid a point being scored, but its simply not good kendo.

I must admit, that even to my beginner's eye, my opponent looks pretty undignified when he's moving around like Gumby. And, the reality is that my strike to the shoulder would cleave enough flesh and bone to, in reality, end the encounter. Soooooo, I take from the comments that if I have been skilled enough to bind the blade of my adversary and unleash a centered men strike, with good form, I should be satisfied with the effort. The fact that my opponent has a good boxer's reflex should not impact on how I feel about my performance.

Lastly, I get the impression that as long as the cut doesn't fall into the category of clubbing, getting hit on the shoulder - is just part of the art. If someone whines about it - too bad. Next time it will probably be me who gets clobbered.

[JSchmidt]

"I should be satisfied with the effort."

In my opinion, not quite. Yes, you have defeated the opponents main defences, but you haven't defeated him mentally.
The perfect cut should leave the opponent with no opportunity to react and that's what I'm looking for.
You should aim to defeat the opponents sword, body and mind, not just one or two of them.

Jakob

[AlexM]

Head bobbing is sort of natural at times (especially for us beginners). No one should start out in kendo by trying to be a hachidan and being totally at ease with taking ippon (although striving for that is what I would like to do).

That being said, I do the same thing as kurukuru when I bob my head. I just look at the opponent (especially if that someone is even more of a beginner than I am) and say "you got the point" or I just tap my men to signal that it was good. I also do it when the opponent attacks and I simply bend my head backwards while they hit the mengane instead of the leather. It's bad form and really dangerous if your club is in to practicing tsuki (like mine).

I find that kendo is also filled with little tricks to "negate" the opponent's ippon: Hitting just a fraction of a second after the opponent gets ippon (despite not really trying for ippon yourself), the equivalent of whacking someone post-ippon. When I catch myself doing this I give the opponent the point, say "well done" and then go on (although I beat myself up for it later).

Head bobbing and the other things mentionned are really about chickening out of taking an ippon, which is ridiculous as receiving or giving ippon is good for the dojo and for the individual kendoka (hushed silence falls on the crowd as they ponder this remarkable insight into the nature of kendo :D).

Not fearing ippon is so tough though. As competitors no one wants to give the point, but as people doing budo you must relent to get beaten once in a while. Gotta have that blasted sutemi*...

In the end (and by end I mean during that "mature" phase of kendo when the body can't go as fast or as far and you have to rely on something other than athletic skill for points) having good "spirit" or whatever you want to call it gives nice kendo and proper budo (or at least the "sutemi" part of budo).

Just my two 2 cents... (well it was a long post so let's say 3 cents)

*sutemi was explained to me as being the quality to engage oneself fully into what we are doing (like men-uchi for instance) without concern for oneself (but it is not recklessness). It's a zen thing apparently. Feel free to correct me or elaborate.

[dorkusxmaximus]

i know this might seem off-topic, but what if a person gets popped in the ear and didn't tilt their head at all? because that happened to me. I was pretty angry when it happened..

[Jklak]

[QUOTE=AlexM]
Not fearing ippon is so tough though. As competitors no one wants to give the point, but as people doing budo you must relent to get beaten once in a while. Gotta have that blasted sutemi*...
QUOTE]

Jeah, fear is the issue if somebody want to bend his/her neck. If there is time to twist head there is also time to move aside, I think. If your opponent scores ippon you have to be humble and accept it.

[Inouye02]

well the 1 time i didnt duck or bend my head i got the shikai special...blam !! dont think i'm the same anymore , thought process is slower now ..

[alexpollijr]

I wouldn't call a men strike that hits the shoulder a "controlled cut". If it hits the ear or the side of the head when it's tilted sideways then OK, but a shoulder hit is a sign of weak tenouchi. Supposedly, and as far as I know, we're supposed to use enough strenght to "cut" to the eyeline, not to the collar bone.

But when you dodge/bent/tilt you're asking for it (missed strikes) , so I never complain or get complaints from anyone when they happen.

It's a reflex motion though. Once it sits in it's hard to get rid of it.

These are of me tilting the head/waist

[JSchmidt]

I don't know about nito, but in jodan, I certainly can't stop the cut before the hits the shoulder :)..I can't imagine it being very easy in nito either :)

Jakob

[Hongsermeier]

I'm working on stoping tilting my head when doing do. Don't know when I started doing that. Everytime I do it in practice my Sensei hits me in the back of the head as I go by. Don't think I'll be doing that much longer. :cross_eye

[Nishi]

I'll do just about anything in shiai, ducking weaving bobbing and bouncing, but when i am fencing sensei or just training hard in the dojo i try to keep as straight as possible.....its just in shiai if i am beat and about to be hit, i have less pride and will sacrifice my kamae to save the bout. In "true kendo"(the type we all aspire to have), if i sacrifice my kamae for anything, then i feel ive losed more than just the bout......

just a thought.

[Old Warrior]

"...fear is the issue if somebody want to bend his/her neck. If there is time to twist head there is also time to move aside..."

Actually, what started this thread was an opponent who leaned so far to his right that if I bumped him he would have fallen over. Picture an opponent literally cowering, craning his neck as far it could go, just to prevent me from hitting men. As much as it seemed embarrasing for him, I am a much bigger person and I appeared ogre-like as I towered over him and followed up with further strikes (yes 2 more, to be precise). The 3rd one hit the mengane and the action stopped. But, I was left trying to sort out if I just brutalized an opponent (not that I clubbed him or hurt him) who couldn't fight back (he is much younger but has twice my experience) or whether he was so intimidated by my poor nito and large size (I weigh 80 lbs. more than him) that he reacted from fear.

I think the answer is that I should concentrate on maintaining my best form regardless of what the opponent does and not worry about pursuing "to the kill". If they want to duck, I should probably take that as a sign that my attack was just too slow and innacurate. I have enough to worry about my own Kendo, ducking seems to be their issue and not mine.

[Nishi]

Ducking is definatley there issue not yours, and its a sign that you are pressuring your opponent, or to much for them (a very good thing).....as for keeping perfect form throught your training, thats how it should be! I personally persue cowering opponents until i score, if i see them remove their sword from centre to protect themselves then i become relentless. I have been taught that the first thing to do before killing the opponent is to kill his/her kamae, if they move there sword about, or duck there head when you attack, you are on the right path, and very close to a kill/point.

Remember.....first you win, then you cut.

[Old Warrior]

"as far as I know, we're supposed to use enough strenght to "cut" to the eyeline, not to the collar bone."

I never heard that before (Master Seong and I have a language gap), although it makes good sense. I am sure my control needs a world of improvement as I am doing nito for only a month and I need lots of strengthening and practice in everything. It gets harder, though, when you are trying to hit men and the most common defense is that "ducking thing".

[Nishi]

I am taught to cut to the eyeline as well, this makes for a good solid strike without the clubbing effect.

As for those little duckers in your do-jang, you'll soon see the disadvantage they put themselves in, and the attack chances they are providing you. It sounds like your being honest with yourself during keiko and i'll bet money this pays off in time.

When my opponents duck, i usually seme again to see if they will launch a pathetic panic attack which can easily be discarded and countered, or i'll take whatever oppurtunity their bad posture provides me with, either way your definatley in an advantagious(sp?) position (Sun Tzu's rule of war).

[Karaken]

i know this might seem off-topic, but what if a person gets popped in the ear and didn't tilt their head at all? because that happened to me. I was pretty angry when it happened..

That is part of Kendo. Whether you bob your head only or legitimately step out of opponent's shinai, you will get hit on your shoulder sometimes. Whether you just jerk your head back ( or Side ) or step back for nuki waza, you might still get hit on mengane. This is fight, we do wear protection because of that. Unless the intent of the hit is obviously malicious or habitual ( because of bad basics or being too aggressive ), we have to bear with it. There is a Sayu Men afterall - which can easily hit your ear no matter how carefully executed.

Whatever the case is, don't get angry - that's bad kendo..

Center

[samurai999]

That is part of Kendo. Whether you bob your head only or legitimately step out of opponent's shinai, you will get hit on your shoulder sometimes. Whether you just jerk your head back ( or Side ) or step back for nuki waza, you might still get hit on mengane. This is fight, we do wear protection because of that. Unless the intent of the hit is obviously malicious or habitual ( because of bad basics or being too aggressive ), we have to bear with it. There is a Sayu Men afterall - which can easily hit your ear no matter how carefully executed.

Whatever the case is, don't get angry - that's bad kendo..

Center

Well being part of kendo is one thing. you can pop your eardrum if the hit is hard enough to the side of your head. I got popped in the side of the head once and I felt pressure in my ear for the rest of the week. Just bat the persons shinai away and try ohji-waza..

Tim

[jmarsten]

Several opinions on this subject are very good. I would offer one more aspect to consider.
When a person fails to receive the men strike they lose the opportunity to learn. One should always receive the men strike and ask what did I do wrong that I was struck. Learn why you are being struck and then change your kendo so that you can move your whole body and counter attack. To duck the head or just block teaches us nothing about the hole in our kendo that the partner is exploiting. The proper attitude is to receive the men uchi and analyse what is wrong and correct your kendo.

[SirFingerLickin]

I cant get myself to duck anymore. For so long, I never got good at recieving hits in drills like in kirikaeshi, so I tend to just let them hit my men. Bcause of this, i cant get myself to duck because after all this time, i have now lost my fear of their shinai. I do block using my shinai, but i cant get myself to dodge. I suppose its a good thing, but i gave up some pretty easy points because i didnt dodge(or block for some reason) at the last shiai.

[Nishi]

Ducking is a result of being unpreparred, if you were ready you would seize the chance to hit your opponent when they decided to attack you (debana). If this failed you would have waza to instigate or even fall back on. Failing this you can still keep kamae and evade the attack (nuki, still an oji i know), and counter at the end of your opponents attack.

The bottom line here is, ducking is a sign of not being preparred,
(mi-gamae, kamae of the spirit) must be attentive, alert and alive...ducking is also more comman for lower grades/dans than higher grades. Experience provides us with options and understanding, moving your head to avoid being cut is not part of any keiko, or any lesson ive seen, thus i see it as alein to true kendo, as using a 180 degree spin to launch a men-cut.

(i ill use it to keep myself in a shiai though, at least till im good enough)

[samurai999]

Well, there are times where you don't move your head and the person opposite you (hitting men) hits your ear or hits you so hard that you have to walk off the court for a breather. There are people that leave because of concussions and ear drum damage because of those type of errant hits. Surprising but true.

If by ducking, you mean moving your head from side to side? If that is the case and you get hit, then thats not good either. I usually yoko ashi out of the way..

Tim

[David]

Well, there are times where you don't move your head and the person opposite you (hitting men) hits your ear or hits you so hard that you have to walk off the court for a breather. There are people that leave because of concussions and ear drum damage because of those type of errant hits. Surprising but true.

Tim


I've been taught to to grap both sides of my men-wings and tug slightly outwards to create a small air pocket inside both sides of the men to cushion the impact of any mis-hits. It's a bit like opening your kote laces to create an air pocket to absorb a kote blow.

I think we all know from experience that the kote solution isn't 100% fool proof, so although I have never seen anyone get concussion from a cut to the ear I can well believe the Men solution isn't 100% risk free either - but it must reduce the odds of injury.

[Miravil]

Ducking and Dodging an attack has become a trend to some of the kendoka in the dojo that I'm practicing. Because kendo is still something new to me, it is ridiculous for me to be able to get a correct hit if someone duck. And sometimes those who does the duckings try to initiate an attack at the same time and I was the one who gets hit to the ear and shoulder. What can I do to keep this from happening beside becoming faster?

I do admit that sometimes I really need to use blocking (harai) as I can't move fast enough with my problem feet. To me duck and dodge is cheating and it is a cowardly act which block the player's eye away from the opponent.

[kancho]

I have been in bogu for about 1 and half months now. I am not very quick but getting quicker and at first I didn't dodge but dodging I think is a part of kendo. THe more I do jikeiko the more I find myself being able to see and dodge. I haven't started ducking but that would be a natural instinct when you are able to see what the opponent will do as time progresses.

Again. I am only a beginner so more experienced kendoka will be able to explain better than me.

[Raígma]

I have been in bogu for about 1 and half months now. I am not very quick but getting quicker and at first I didn't dodge but dodging I think is a part of kendo. THe more I do jikeiko the more I find myself being able to see and dodge. I haven't started ducking but that would be a natural instinct when you are able to see what the opponent will do as time progresses.

Again. I am only a beginner so more experienced kendoka will be able to explain better than me.

I think dodging is just sensefull when you are able to get totally out of the cut. A dodge is senseless when you still get hit to the sholder. You should at least concentrate on block- and contertechniques.
Ippon is ippon... and if those you would fight with swords you would lose a bit of your enthusiasm to fight by getting cut through your shoulder.
I think one should keep a few thoughts from real swordfighting in his backhead and realize that ducking is useless. Dodge if you can... but I assure you that you will hardly ever be able to dodge if you are fighting against someone who knows how to attack.

[mochi_pig]

In the 12 WKC men's team video, I saw people from every team dodging (moving head and neck to the side). The Korean team did more ducking (moving head and upper body downward) than anyone else.

During a USA vs. Korea bout, an American (the shortest player) hopped on the back of a Korean player after he ducked and stayed on top until the referees stopped play. No penalities were given out but I don't know if there is a kendo rule against it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have been in bogu for about 1 and half months now. [snip] THe more I do jikeiko the more I find myself being able to see and dodge.
OK, stop that. With that little experience, the last thing you should be worried about is getting hit. Just concentrate on hitting the other guy and ignore when you get hit yourself.

[Nishi]

Just concentrate on hitting the other guy and ignore when you get hit yourself.

Perfect.....this should be a law....!!!!

[jmarsten]

Actually if you want to watch helpful video then watch the National Geographic documentary on Ishida's 8 dan test and the NHK special on Eiga. Another video that would do you a lot more good is the AJKF Fundamental Kendo.
Watching these shiai videos after a couple of months experience instead of several years of contextual background is really not going to push you in the right direction. While these video are inspirational in the skill presented they are the sport side and most of our time should be spent on the martial ART side.