Shidachi-Uchidachi distance in Kata (Seitei/ZNKR)

[Marcus_P]

Has the distance between Shidachi and Uchidachi in Kata always been 4.5m?

We recently "discovered" that this was the case, but I could have sworn that it used to be longer (5.5m to 6m)... I believe the ZNKR book (at least the Japanese version of the book) says 4.5m, keep forgetting to check out the English version of the book, but up until this year we've been practising at 5.5-6m and never been corrected by the Sensei...

It just feels a little short to me, wondering if we've just been doing it wrong or it has changed, or if anyone else feels the distance is a tad short?

[Aden]

4.5m, I must remember to bring a tape measure and see what distance we actually use at present for seitei.

Aden

[Nakura]

I don't have the manual at hand but I thought it only said nine paces?

[yoda-waza]

Tachiai is an anthropomorphic distance of nine paces. When did exact metrics become the standard? If I'm misinformed others will hopefully enlighten me.

[Budo Angel]

4.5m
said nine paces?
As our sensei was raising last night...everyone's arms/legs & bodies are different sizes - we're all different ! :alien: ... myself being vertically challenged but quick with dainty feet, would find 4.5m equallying exactly my 9 paces (assume you mean 4.5m split by 2 people steps in - so is that 2.25m = 9 pace) a challenge, making the obvious answer: alter the distance pending the opponent you are opposite, and last but not least, be in hitting distance, or not (!) as the case might be :ko:

(US - we work in metrics, americans work in imperial...why ?!)

[dgilliespie]

alter the distance pending the opponent you are opposite, and last but not least, be in hitting distance, or not (!) as the case might be :ko:
or use a longer Jo. I use one about 6 inches longer, works much better.

[R A Sosnowski]

As our sensei was raising last night...everyone's arms/legs & bodies are different sizes - we're all different ! :alien: ... myself being vertically challenged but quick with dainty feet, would find 4.5m equallying exactly my 9 paces (assume you mean 4.5m split by 2 people steps in - so is that 2.25m = 9 pace) a challenge, making the obvious answer: alter the distance pending the opponent you are opposite, and last but not least, be in hitting distance, or not (!) as the case might be :ko:

(US - we work in metrics, americans work in imperial...why ?!)
In the 11 years I have been doing jo, the distance for Seitei Jo Gata has been "9 paces." Unofficially, minor adjustments for the two individuals could be made after doing the Kata the first time.

or use a longer Jo. I use one about 6 inches longer, works much better.
We use the standard lengths for Jo and Bokuto for Kata - no deviations.

I have to adjust because I can accomodate longer weapons. I had a custon Jo, six inches longer, made for Aiki-jo many years ago when I was practicing Aikido, also a custom Bokuto with two inches more in the Tsuka and four inches more in the blade to mimic the size of my Iaito. I do't use either for Jo practice.

[Marcus_P]

How does one define a pace then?

Context: We discovered this when laying out the "courts" at the National Championships... we were told by the Sensei, and shown the measurements in the book, that the distance between the starting lines should be 4.5m.

[R A Sosnowski]

How does one define a pace then?

Context: We discovered this when laying out the "courts" at the National Championships... we were told by the Sensei, and shown the measurements in the book, that the distance between the starting lines should be 4.5m.
Pace is the normal length of one walking stride.

We have the same situation in Naginata - when working with people in class we have a set number of paces distance between the two practitioners for forms' practice, but when we have Engi, the term for our formal forms' competition, the court is prescribed by physical measurements in meters.

HTH.

[Andy_Watson]

Firstly congratulations to Yoda Waza for slipping in anthropomorphic into a post. I thought only Terry Pratchet used that word but well done. I tried pronouncing it once and I still have scars on my tongue.

The distance which is set out for gradings and taikai under the ZNKR is set in the book and should be marked out as such at 4.5 metres between uchidachi and shijo. As Budo Angel has indicated, everyone is different and will take more or less paces to close that distance. Non-ZNKR people do their own thing.

When deciding on a suitable distance to PRACTISE kata then 3-7 paces (depending on height) is probably a good balance between being far enough away to feel the ramping up of proximity as the uchidachi approaches but not so far that you spend the majority of your practise time "marching up and down the square".

The length of the jo under the ZNKR is set at 4 shaku 2 sun and 1 bu (128 cm). No adjustment is allowed for people's own physical dimensions. Non-ZNKR people do their own thing.

Marcus, I tried to have a dig around my old Japanese versions of the jodo manual but without spending a bit of time, I can't find any description of what the ma-ai should be in general training. The 4.5m is specified in the shiai handbook though and would be the same for taikai. I agree with you though that I think it may possibly have changed in the time that I have been doing it.

[Marcus_P]

Thank goodness somebody else thinks it might have changed! I'm not going crazy! =D

To me it seems that for practice, if it has been specified for Grading/Taikai is 4.5m, should you practice at 4.5m?

Now, I'm not saying that people should be practicing only for grading or practicing only for taikai, as that's not what doing a martial art is about (at least in my belief), but it makes more sense to me to practice as specified, than doing your own thing, then having to adjust it later? Especially with a ZNKR art, where everything is specified and should be done properly... Is not what is proper what should be done in grading/taikai?

[Andy_Watson]

I guess it doesn't harm to practise at that distance but it really depends on your sensei and the space you have available. At our dojo we have to moderate our distance as there isn't all that much room.

I guess the thing is that you shouldn't restrict yourself to any distance but get used to covering random distances and still not end up either too far, too close or with the wrong foot forwards.

[Aden]

If you always practice your seitei jo at the ZNKR takai distance it may help you in grading / competition in many cases.... but I think if seitei is your only jo and you do that you miss out on some of the valuable lessons from jo regarding timing and distance, and if you find yourself at a grading or takai thrown in with a stranger such regimented practice will not be good for you - (at one nationals I was given different partners from other states I had never trained with rather than my nominated partners for both parts, both of whom were different in height / reach / timing from anyone in the small group I usually trained with, so it can happen here in Aus) you need to be able to adjust automatically on the approach not go smoothly 1/2/3 bugger not quite at ma-ai shuffle / choke cut.....

Aden
(uninformed personal opinion only)

[Marcus_P]

Oh no, I get and understand that... I was just making comment about seitei's regimented practices etc...