Not a target

[Aries]

Thought I'd share this with some fellow ladies that practice MA, as its been on my mind for a while now.

When girls play sports, or practice MA, we are more aware of our bodies and it puts us in a differnt mental state about ourselves, (really helpfull during puberty and development). We usually are more confident and self assured. Characterisitcs that make us "not targets", since generally attackers go after people they can overpower and control. We are more aware of how to protect ourselves as girls.
And I had always been satisfied with that much, all of the stories you hear on the news, all the statistics.. never really felt like it applied to me, as I know how to keep myself out of those situations, and hopefully will never have to be in it.
But then someone I know was hurt in cruel way, and suddenly it wasn't enough to be safe myself, it wasn't another story, this hit home.
My inital reaction was anger. I was angry at the asshole that would do such a thing top someone truely defensless in mind and body, and I was more angry at those people who should have taught her even the basics of what can happen to her as a woman. I'm still angry that she's so afraid to tell becasue she's afraid they'll blame her. and I'm angry that she believes its her fault.
But underneath it, I was angry becasue I felt helpless to have not been able to do anythng for her, and because there is no way to really repair any damage to her mind and body without any more pain.

I've only felt this sort of helplessness when my grandfather was in intensive care before he passed away.

Things are being taken care of to the best they can be handled at this point, but it doesn't change the urge to seriously hurt the guy. If you ask me, death is not enough.

[David]

Sorry to hear about your friend, but I somewhat disagree with part of your post.

When girls play sports, or practice MA, we are more aware of our bodies and it puts us in a differnt mental state about ourselves, (really helpfull during puberty and development). We usually are more confident and self assured. Characterisitcs that make us "not targets", since generally attackers go after people they can overpower and control. We are more aware of how to protect ourselves as girls.
Don't take this the wrong way, but just the fact that you are a woman makes you a target. Your average, every-day mugger/attacker is not going to care about how confident and self-assured you are. Chances are, they'll be picking their target on purely physical appearence. Most muggers/attackers are men. If a man is desperate enough that he has to steal from someone, he's gonna make damn sure that he's gonna try and attack someone that he can physically overpower. Someone smaller then them, and who they believe is going to be weaker as well. To alot of men (not all of us), this automatically means a woman, because generally, men are physically stronger then women, and usually a little bit bigger.

Also, it's a given that a person with MA training, be they man or woman, is going to have a much better chance of survival against an attacker or mugger using a knife or some other type of meele weapon then someone who doesn't, but it won't matter much if the attacker has a gun, which there's a good chance they will.

[Aries]

maybe it doesnt matter to attackers, but knowing how your own body feels and recognizing when its being violated makes a huge difference.

though, I had plugged that confidence thing as a reference to what my friend who has worked for years in the security field had told me before, and I find to make sense: You can tell the way someone carries themself if they will put up a fight when you attack them.
When you walk around liek a scared mouse, then its apparent that you'll easily be over come.
with all due respect, i don't know the mind of criminals, but rape is conciderably differnt than simply being mugged

exucse me if i don't elaborate on the circumstances, but leagally I can't disclose the specifics.

[Alison2805]

Sorry to hear about your friend, but I somewhat disagree with part of your post.

Don't take this the wrong way, but just the fact that you are a woman makes you a target. Your average, every-day mugger/attacker is not going to care about how confident and self-assured you are. Chances are, they'll be picking their target on purely physical appearence. Most muggers/attackers are men. If a man is desperate enough that he has to steal from someone, he's gonna make damn sure that he's gonna try and attack someone that he can physically overpower. Someone smaller then them, and who they believe is going to be weaker as well. To alot of men (not all of us), this automatically means a woman, because generally, men are physically stronger then women, and usually a little bit bigger.

Also, it's a given that a person with MA training, be they man or woman, is going to have a much better chance of survival against an attacker or mugger using a knife or some other type of meele weapon then someone who doesn't, but it won't matter much if the attacker has a gun, which there's a good chance they will.

Actually, Aries is right. Its a proven fact that the scuzbags who prey on women will pick someone who looks vulnerable, not just any female who walks past. My university used to have spates of attaks on women in car parks. The advice from the police was "dont walk alone, dont go to dark areas etc, but if you find yourself in that situation: walk confidently".

All the attackers were caught because the girls went straight to the police. If they didnt, more girls would have been attacked. Although a guilt trip isnt the thing your friend needs right now (she needs counselling), if she doesnt say something she is in fact encouraging him to do it again. She might feel bad now, but she will feel worse when someone else has to go through the same thing because he is still on the streets.

I hope she gets enough confidence to fight back.

[Kenmei]

It's good to feel confident overly in control of yourself, but attackers would never notice that. Alison is right. Women should never walk alone especially in the evening or night times, should not go to dark areas. Always try and walk with someone that you know when doing something, groups discourage attackers.

Also I'd like to state that I've also had friends who have been attacked. What's different about my situation is that my friends were all male. When living in Beijing, China my friend was going home and was about to take the shuttle bus back, two men mugged him and took all his money. Another incident was with my friend Daniel's father, who was threatened with syringes to give up his money.

[Kirinhale]

I've also heard carrying an umbrella makes you less of a target :p

[pgsmith]

It's good to feel confident overly in control of yourself, but attackers would never notice that.
That is an incorrect statement. Allison is absolutely correct when she says Its a proven fact that the scuzbags who prey on women will pick someone who looks vulnerable, not just any female who walks past.
The vast majority of muggers and rapists do NOT wish to attract unwanted attention. This is the same reason that the police departments advise women to fight back as hard and loudly as possible if attacked. Simply looking like more trouble than you're worth is usually sufficient to discourage most attackers. They are looking for victims, not challenges. If you look timid and scared, they will see a victim. If you look aggressive and confident, they will see a challenge. These are well documented facts, and are generally taught in any women's self-defense course.

[kim]

"It's good to feel confident overly in control of yourself, but attackers would never notice that."
I have been practising martial arts for over 20 years and in that time the most important lesson i've learnt is that there is always some one bigger, faster or just plain meaner than myself . Self defence is just that. If you can,.run away .if you can't,. fight like hell...I try not to get myself into a situations where i may have to defend myself.A few years ago I was attacked in the street by a compleat stranger.I was bleeding in shock and had to decide in an instant what i had to do.. I fought back and made myself safe.There was no question of winning or losing.It was only after when the police came that i could acess weather or not i had done the right thing.The attacker didn't know me and i certanly didn't know them. confidence may of made me a little too trusting in my abillity as a martial artist? maybe i would of been attacked anyway? These are all questions i have the privlege of bieng able to ask myself after the event. Without martial training who knows.

[bullet08]

best option is not to make yourself a target. meaning, avoid places that might cause issues. always walk with friends.. and so on. even then, things might happen. always remember, don't finish the job half way. make sure the bastard stays down long enough for you to get police on the scene. or at least long enough for you to go home and lock all the doors.

sometime age, one of the college kid around here was attacked. she fought back and got away, but she didn't make sure the attacker stayed down long enough. the attacker followed her and killed her. there are some crazy people around that just need to be put away for long long time.

pete

[GreenArrow]

And of course remember that in the UK at least, far more young men are attacked on the streets than young women and most rapes are committed by a person known to the victim..... and the victim being drunk after a night out maks it much harder for them to react and defend themself.

That's not to say that unprovoked attacks don;t happen- they do. And usually to someone who looks easy meat, male or female. But that it makes headline news when it happens is in some ways a good thing, i.e. it's rare enough to be a headline.

So don't be too afraid- be sensible where you go and try to stay reasonable sober. Should take care of most stuff.

JMO though.

[Aries]

and its seems that most of us know what to do how to avoid things and such..
but what do you do, how do you teach someone in an 18 year old body but with the mental capacity and development of a 9 year old? Someone who can't even comprehend that she could be sexually assaulted. do you explain it to them? all they know is the feeling of fear and violation which they can't even describe. for a young child most of the time the only thing they can tell you is that they "don't like it". Being in a woman's body is dangerous for someone who barely understands the difference.
this is where my anger and helplessness come from, bystanders like me see the issues that need to be addressed but are ignored.
It hits home for me personally, because i remember being 7 or 8 myself and the confusion and fear asscoiated with deciding weather or not to speak up if someone made me physically uncomfortable.Especially in a culture where you don't question an adults athrouity at that age. Bravest thing I'd probably done was tell me mother how disgusting it felt when certian people touched me even if it was just a pat on the head or a hug.
these issues get swept under the rug, even after things happen just because no one wants to talk about it, some parents even forgo prosecution if they caught the guy just to not bring attention that something ugly had happened.
Granted thats if the girl even wants to tell, some sexual assault victims I know rationalize thier expereince, some convince themselves that they wanted it, but in this case, shes afraid that she'll be punished and blamed for it.

[Alexandrinus]

And there is the question, are we a product out of our education or one of our genetic.
If we are one of education everything can be done,if out of genetic we are limited.

But im shure the genetic part is nearly to disregard,so my opinion everything is possible for everyone.

[Kuma]

Aries, I offer my heartfelt condolences for your friend and yourself, as situations like this are often traumatizing for those close to the victim as well. I hope that you both can once again find a sense of safety and well-being despite the distress you may now be feeling.

In the interest of better informing the discussion here, I present the following.

I generally consider myself a gender abolitionist, however this is one topic where I think that most men (myself included) will never be able to fully understand how women feel. This is due to our culture and society and how men are encouraged to be self-sufficient and aggressive while women are discouraged and often punished in some way for being so. Additionally, they few men could ever possibly understand the quite practical fear that many women experience daily regarding attack or sexual assault. This is simply not an issue of any significant magnitude for men, at least not in my country.

As an example of how a majority of men in our society here in the States genuinely feel about this issue, a quite reputable and fairly recent study found that in excess of 60% of men surveyed admitted that they would rape a woman if they knew that there would be no consequences. If anyone is interested in this study or similar discussions that my wife has been involved in on other forums, I wouldn't mind finding more information.

I only offer this in the hopes that some of us may think twice before offering women any opinions or advice. There is a great chance that what you say may either be misinterpreted as a lack of concern or understanding-- both are, unfortunately, often accurate.

[satsumaruma]

Some interesting points here.

First I would like to say that it does sound like your friend might benefit from professional help such as counselling. Many people shun it because they see themselves as being weak if they take it, but it can work and counsellors will not open any doors that they are not invited to. They work within strict guidelines - I know, I have worked with several over the years though thankfully not from personal expereince.

On the subject of women being targets. This depends. I would concur that you can make your self safe by staying in groups - attackers, rapists etc tend not to go near because there would be too many witnesses and people who would fight back. Staying sober is good advice but most people who go out socially will drink and this means they may be vulnerable to being given a date-rape drug. This is more prevalent than we all like to imagine. Being confident is good but only up to a point - it works if your would be attacker is of sound mind and rational ( this is conceptual insomuch as how can we say it is rational to attack or rape another human being but I hope you see what I am driving at here), they are likley to seek out the most vulnerable. But a great many I have worked with over the years ( and yes I have worked with those who commit the most dreadful crimes) have come within 3 main categories; under the influence of legal/illegal substances, psycopathic, Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder. No matter how confident you project yourself these 3 categories of people may not recognise/acknowledge this so you may be a target. Not trying to worry anyone but I know of one case where the man sought out the MOST confident women - for him the attacks were all about control.

It is worth considering as well that rape is not about sex but about control. People try to deny and refute this and I acknowledge rights to such a view but if you consider this in totality you will come to see why this is so. Within normal sexual attitudes women control the situation as to when sex will take place. With rape, the man forcibly takes that control from her. Sex is involved but it is the loss of control, the feeling of utter helplessness, that causes so much angst and suffering to the victim of such an attack.

We must also consider male on male rape and how this affects the victim. It is hard for any person to bear such an attack but for men to suffer such an attack is ... I almost wrote worse, which would be wrong but in some ways it sort of is. Men do struggle to speak about their emotions so they cope far worse after such attacks. Women rightly receive lots of help and support but there are fewer such mechanisms to help men. And then there is perception to worry about - how will his friends react? Sympathy and support at first? But when will the silly jokes in the pub start. All meant in a good way I am sure but what would it be like for the victim?

Still with perception, how about women on men rapes. I believe in some countries there is no such offence at law but it is a law in the UK and it does happen. But our reactions to such attacks are often very different to those done by men on women. "if it happened to me I would just lie back and enjoy it" - never heard that before? "how can it be rape, if you got a stiffy - you must have wanted to?" Another misconception. Men can be made to erect and ejaculate whether they want to or not.

I would reassure most of you by noting that attacks on unkowns is actually the minority ( no comfort for those who have been attacked by family or friends) and that whilst muggings are not rare, serious attacks such as indecent assault and rape are.

What seems to being discovered now ( and this is so obvious really but the eggheads have to study for years to find what people with common sense know) is that those comunities who are close knit and where people actively interact and help each other tend to suffer less attacks and crime than other communities (Bright, aren't they?) Most big cities suffer lots of assaults etc because bystanders walk on by, they won't get involved. This helps those who wish to perpetrate such acts. The law makes matters worse because if you help you might be prosecuted if the mugger gets seriously hurt (UK law is truly odd).

Speaking of law. It is interesting to note that whilst many people would advocate the return of the death penalty it does not work as a deterrent. See the crime rates in USA and compare those states which have the death penalty and those that do not. It doesn't get better - in fact in some cases it is worse. Although it could equally be argued that it would be far worse still if they did not have the death penalty. Sharia Law seems to have some effect but then again it may be that, generally speaking, arabs/moslems are a pretty law abiding and moral bunch ( ignore the Towels & Beards lunatics who make the front pages).

I think, in the UK at least, we tend to focus our efforts on helping people when things have happened rather than trying to prevent them happening in the first place. Maybe we need to petition the government on some dramatic changes? Any thoughts?

Lee

PS I could have written a lot more here but I did not want to bore you all. I hope what I have tried to say has come across correctly.

[Kuma]

I've got to admit that, while I used to be staunchly anti-death penalty, I have since come to support the death penalty in some cases of sexual assault. I know that it isn't an effective deterrent, however I do feel that as a member of society, certain actions on your part can cancel society's obligation to support you under any circumstances. I have heard of too many instances of violent rape that ended with the perpetrator, guilty beyond any doubt, simply living much of their lives out in prison. Some people have willingly and knowingly forfeited their right to live in our society, and frankly, even prisoners in the penal system should not have to be subjected to their company.

I've just never heard an effective argument against giving violent sex offenders the death penalty, and I don't think I ever will.

[Aries]

thank you all for you concern and input.
Please rest assured we are taking the proper steps to help my friend. The right counslers..etc. Just frustrating as this whole process will force the parents to accept for her to test for her mental differntly-abledness.
Heartbreaking to see the aftershock of all of it.

[cesarekim]

Aries,
I can sort of relate to the anger and sense of helplessness that you may be experiencing as my girlfriend was raped when I was in college. I distinctly remember standing there with some seriously dangerous thoughts both at the hospital afterwards and at the police station when Cass identified the sob. In the end, I never took things into my own hands but I came damn close. The only thing I did was to talk to some friends to ensure that the fellow's time in jail would not be fun. Conceptually, this was probably wrong but I remember it was the only way I could find some sort of "closure" on those events for both myself and Cass.

My relationship was already ending when this happened and she was the first to tell me that we needed to break up about two months after this happened. She was getting therapy and she decided that we were better as friends rather than as lovers. She took it as the first step in getting over the whole thing. Cass was an adult with a strong sense of who she was and what she believed in. Your friend does not have the same advantages which makes this even harder. Hopefully, she will learn to live with this event as did Cass.

As far as what can be done to prevent this kind of thing, I am at a loss. As a father of a young girl, I shudder to think at what could happen to her when she's out and about. While she is a child, it is my responsibility to keep her safe. As she grows more independent, I hope I will have equipped her with the tools to be safe. This, btw, does not mean I want my daughter to be a well-trained assasin. I just want her, and this holds true for my son as well, to know what is safe behaviour and what is not. It would be nice if they decided to learn MA with me but unarmed combat is dangerous when pitted against someone with a weapon or a drug.

All I can say for your really shattering experience is that I hope that you, your friend and all the people involved recover from this as completely as possible. Take all the support you can get and hope the bastard gets his just rewards.

God Bless

[satsumaruma]

I've got to admit that, while I used to be staunchly anti-death penalty, I have since come to support the death penalty in some cases of sexual assault. I know that it isn't an effective deterrent, however I do feel that as a member of society, certain actions on your part can cancel society's obligation to support you under any circumstances. I have heard of too many instances of violent rape that ended with the perpetrator, guilty beyond any doubt, simply living much of their lives out in prison. Some people have willingly and knowingly forfeited their right to live in our society, and frankly, even prisoners in the penal system should not have to be subjected to their company.

I've just never heard an effective argument against giving violent sex offenders the death penalty, and I don't think I ever will.

Kuma,

here in the UK we do not have the death penalty despite most of the electorate being in favour of it for some serious crimes ( the murder of a child, killing a police officer in the course of their duties were the two main ones).

I once queried to a senior high court judge if there was any legal reason why we do not have this penalty and he replied as follows (paraphrased)

We do not have the death penalty simply because we use a jury system. At the moment a jury can convict someone on a majority verdict - usually 10 out of 12 but sometimes 9 out of 12. With the Death penalty he pointed out that we would not wish to terminate someones life on a majority verdict because there would still be an element of doubt. Therefore we could end up with the situation with someone receiving a verdict of 11 guilties out of 12 and walking free. It certainly would be wrong to say that 12 out of 12 = death, 10 or 11 =life imprisonment. You are either found guilty and receive the right punishment or you are not.

So ultimately, we could end up with more murderers walking free.

This is a legal position and not an emotive one. Personally I think I would support a call for the death penalty for some child murderers but how to devise a system which is lawful and fair is beyond my abilities.

Lee

[Richard Kim]

I am one of those who does not believe that displaying confidence is a very good way of reducing your chances of being a victim. A better way would be carrying a gun and/or trying to stay out of low-income areas.

The Department of Justice publishes figures re criminal activity. First off, women have a very significant risk of being assualted, raped, and/or killed by someone they know. A few years ago (not anymore), that number was approaching 50%. In my mind, that wipes out a big chunk of acting confident. The second thing is that, even among attacks by strangers, the rate men are victimized is higher than women. If criminals are simply targeting the easiest individuals, wouldn't women be attacked more than men?

One major thing that does jump out is that the lower income you have the more chance you have of being a victim. It would seem that, regardless of your income, your safest bet is to try to live/work/play in a higher-income area. And take a good long look at the other person before you agree to go on a date or get married.

[Kenmei]

It would seem that, regardless of your income, your safest bet is to try to live/work/play in a higher-income area.

A year ago in High School I used to live in Vienna, Virginia, inside of Fairfax County, which has the second highest median household income at around $96k. We had some of the lowest crime rates in the country, yet it didn't prevent rapes from occurring. I went to George C. Marshall HS and was an unknowing friend of a rapist. He was 19, on the football team, was an average person, at least in the eyes of all his friends including me. He looked and talked normal, he seemed normal, yet he was a rapist. For months there was a rapist active that targeted women at a nearby metro, no one knew who it was. One day I got a call from one of my best friends telling me, "Hey dude, it's Mike. He's on the news, they're sayin he's the rapist!" I thought it was some kind of joke. I hung up and got ready for school. As soon as I got to school, an announcement on the PA said, "I'm sure you all have been aware now, from your parents or from watching the news, that one of our students has been charged with five counts of rape and sodomy. There are news cameras and reporters outside, please ignore them and let's continue our day." I thought back to what my friend said, it's Mike... I was so pissed and enraged that someone whom I knew and befriended was a rapist. I let him into my house, we played games, and had fun outside, yet none of my friends and I, knew what he did.

In the end my friends and I abandoned him. We thought we knew who he was, but in reality he was someone completely different. You think you know someone, but in the end it turns out it was either all lies or they were completely different.

-------------
Rapists can be anyone. They can be rich or poor. They can be friend or stranger. The motives are the same no matter what. High income neighborhoods may seem safe, but it doesn't mean they are. There are gangs and there are people who want to hurt people for their own sick benefit, and they are located in all walks of life.

It was only a year ago when that incident happened with someone I knew, but I can't stop thinking about it, always asking myself the same question. How well do I know my friends?

[Kuma]

A better way would be carrying a gun and/or trying to stay out of low-income areas.

Wow. Anyone have a link to figures that would substantiate this claim? I would find it pretty difficult to believe, otherwise. I happen to know that college towns have a pretty damn high income for the most part, and are a hotbed of sexual assault. And I think that it is highly debatable whether the availability of guns makes rape more or less likely.

If there is indeed any evidence that having a gun makes it less likely that someone will be the victim of violent crime, or that living in a low income area puts you at a greater risk of sexual assault or rape, then by all means, I'd be quite interested to see it. As far as I know, rapists come from across the socio-economic spectrum and from all educational levels. However, I would love to proven wrong.

[Kenmei]

If you carry a gun, you better be sure you know how to use it and that you're unafraid to use it. They showed this clip on TLC - Impact: Stories of Survival - Episode: Paralyzed Player. In it was a real life incident in which a woman and her friend were shot in the head. Her friend was helping her to her car. She got in and was talking to him through the driver side window when two men came by and attacked her friend. She had a gun in the compartment behind her seat and she slowly reached for it. She grabbed it and when she had it in her lap, she reconsidered using it, thinking that they could become more violent and cause the situation to deteriorate even further. When she was about to hide the gun, one of the attackers saw it and told his friend. They immediately grabbed it from her and started threating her with the gun. They threw her guy friend on the ground and shot him in the head. After she complied and gave her everything she had, they shot her in the head. She managed to survive.

Some questions could be asked when looking at the situation. Why didn't she use the gun? Why did she try to hide it? She had the gun and could've defended herself, yet she couldn't bring herself to stand up to the attacker. If you were in the same situation, would you be able to respond and shoot someone who is terrorizing you? Could you kill them? Was it wise to hide the gun?

What I learned from watchin the episode is that guns may not deter some attackers, especially if they see that you are afraid to use it.

[Kenmei]

Statistics from the Bureau of Justice:
Victim Characteristics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_v.htm)
Weapon Use and Violent Crime (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/wuvc01.pdf)

[Kuma]

Statistics from the Bureau of Justice:
Victim Characteristics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_v.htm)
Weapon Use and Violent Crime (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/wuvc01.pdf)

Perhaps I'm missing the pertinent information here, but what I see is that those with an income level below $7500 were more likely to be victimized by burglary and assault. What you had said was that one should avoid those with low incomes. I could find no evidence to support this in the links provided.

Additionally, I could find nothing about the prevention of crime through the possession of a firearm, yet an abundance of evidence that the availability of firearms facilitates criminal activity. I've seen similar rates of criminal activity for countries that do not allow the sale of handguns, and they are predictably different. I doubt that many people are robbed at the point of a hunting rifle.

In any case, I simply do not see anything that supports the advice of being armed nor avoiding low income areas. These sorts of ideas are unhelpful and misleading for the purposes of protecting oneself from assault, and have little if any connection to reality.

[Richard Kim]

Kuma:

Sorry about my prior garbled post. To claify, I wasn't specifically talking about sexual assault but violent crime in general. Poorer areas (areas where residents have lower incomes) experience higher crime rates. My point was that I'm not conviced that having a confident demeanor is going to protect you from violent crime. Better results will likely be achieved by avoiding high-crime areas. True, as Kenmei points out, there are no guarantees. But, nonetheless, your odds improve. The part about spousal/partner abuse refers to all domestic violence and not just sexual assault.

In regards to firearms, I wasn't trying to start the whole gun law debate. Carry one. Don't carry one. It's an individual decision and we all may obviously do as we like. Would carrying a gun prevent an attack? I doubt it. If you have a concealed carry permit a casual observer may not see it. But if you are attacked I believe having a gun is preferable to not having one. But, again, an individual opinion. If you believe your odds are better by being unarmed then go unarmed. If you feel walking at night through high crime areas is okay as long as you walk confidently then you are free to take that walk. Personally, I do not recommend it.

For those interested in firearms, the NRA website has local teaching instructors. You can also call your local police department. There are often Officers who will train you about gun use and safety at the local range during off-duty hours for a reasonable charge.

[cesarekim]

For those interested in firearms, the NRA website has local teaching instructors. You can also call your local police department. There are often Officers who will train you about gun use and safety at the local range during off-duty hours for a reasonable charge.

As far as guns are concerned, I would suggest that you definitely take lessons. Once you've taken the gun safety lessons, you will need to address a very basic issue that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Can you shoot another person? If you are not confident you can do this, keep the gun at the range. IF you are confident you can actually point and SHOOT a person, you will also need to go to a tac class where they teach you to shoot in "real-life" situations and will get you an appropriate weapon. You know:

"Get a short-barrel, hammer-less pistol with low tritium sights if you are going to carry concealed. You could also get a wondernine or wonderten if you need firepower. In a worse case scenario, try to get a permit for a SAW... "

There is a whole sub-culture on this stuff and you may be repelled or attracted by it.

I personally liked pistol shooting as a sport but I remember what it was like to have to carry one on duty and am quite content just moving my fat civilian butt without the extra weight. If you look at the stats, search for an interesting little nugget: the number of people who get shot by their own weapon...

[Alison2805]

If you feel walking at night through high crime areas is okay as long as you walk confidently then you are free to take that walk. Personally, I do not recommend it.

No one even remotely suggested that.

Everyone carrying guns for "protection"... so much for the world going forward :(

[Aries]

A better way would be carrying a gun and/or trying to stay out of low-income areas.




This particular instance happened in one of the best areas around here, million dollar homes and great school reputation, ideal place that poeple want to raise their children in.

As for avoiding dodgy areas...Thats lovely for people who have the luxury of avoiding such areas, but its a reality for all too many people.

I don't live in the hot spot of the "bad part of town". but it doesnt seem to matter much sometimes, We have shootings within half a mile of my hosue every few months, two years ago somone was killed in the street behind mine in a police realted incident, and just a year ago someone had broken into one of the houses in our complex while the wife and kid were still home, tied them up and sacked the house, luckily someone noticed and intervened before they could decide what to do with the captives.

personally I don't think arming myself with a weapon is the best way to protect myself, becasue that weapon could easily be taken and used against me, and if they get away with it, thats another weapon out on the streets capable of hurting others. Thats how I feel about my own abilities . assumptions that i'm better off because of the gear can be deadly.

[Kuma]

If you look at the stats, search for an interesting little nugget: the number of people who get shot by their own weapon...

This is an excellent point, Cesare, and the one that concerns me the most regarding the purchase of a firearm. Are there classes on how to prevent this, or is it just a "use your head" sort of thing?

On a side note, I didn't know you were a police officer. My father-in-law was a deputy sheriff in San Jose, CA until just recently. Quite enlightening and eye-opening to have one in the family.

[kpmooney]

This is an excellent point, Cesare, and the one that concerns me the most regarding the purchase of a firearm. Are there classes on how to prevent this, or is it just a "use your head" sort of thing?
There are classes in defensive pistolcraft. Check out Col. Cooper's Gunsite, for example. But more than anything, mindset, not technique keeps you alive in these situations.

[cesarekim]

This is an excellent point, Cesare, and the one that concerns me the most regarding the purchase of a firearm. Are there classes on how to prevent this, or is it just a "use your head" sort of thing?

On a side note, I didn't know you were a police officer. My father-in-law was a deputy sheriff in San Jose, CA until just recently. Quite enlightening and eye-opening to have one in the family.

Kuma,
Never was a police officer but rather was drafted. A handgun was extra weight as we were carrying assault rifles as our main weapon.

As KPMooney says, Col. Cooper's stuff is pretty interesting, btw. Basic stuff such as keep your elbow locked on your body if you're in a close quarters situation makes perfectly good sense. The problem is if you are in an isosceles or a weaver stance in close quarters. In both of those stands, your hands are out away from the body. If the person who wants your gun can get his arms around yours he may be able to strip the gun. So learning how to handle a gun on the range will then need a tactical class such as Cooper offers to understand how to act in real life.

[kartoffelngeist]

I've just never heard an effective argument against giving violent sex offenders the death penalty, and I don't think I ever will.

It serves no purpose and won't help anyone in any way?

[kartoffelngeist]

It serves no purpose and won't help anyone in any way?

wow, the thread moved on two pages in the time I was reading it...

[Kuma]

wow, the thread moved on two pages in the time I was reading it...

Have you been reading this for two entire weeks?

So in what way should we remove those who have forfeited their membership in humanity from those who have not? We put far too many people in prison who don't deserve to be there. Would you like to bunk with a violent sex offender if you are unjustly imprisoned. Not the best argument for capital punishment, I know. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.

[satsumaruma]

I cannot speak for the USA but I can assure you that violent (or non violent for that matter) Sex Offenders do not share cells with non-sex offenders generally.

In UK prisoner parlance they are referred to as Nonces (Bizarrely for Nonsense cases????) but are known by staff as VP's (Vulnerable Prisoners). The reason for this is because they are at risk of assault from the non-sex offender population. Whilst this may appeal to the general public it is not good for staff who have to intercede and may also get hurt.

Sex offenders are seen as the lowest in Prisoner heirarchy and even within the sex offender population there is a sub-heirarchy with Paedophiles being considered the absolute lowest.

On the death penalty - this would not be a deterrent especially for sex offences. There are treatment programmes - mostly created by canadians and further developed in UK and Australia - but it is not really knowon if these are succesful or not. The death penalty would give society 'revenge' but is that right? Should the State provide vengeance on behalf of one individual against another? Maybe, maybe not. But it is fraught with problems.

Here is another thought. Many sex offenders with crimes against children have done this within their own families (albeit sometimes extended families). A vast percentage of these were also the victims of sexual crime by other members of their own family - who knows when it started! This does not condone the fact that have committed an incredibly serious crime but it can sometimes explain it.

Undoing such behaviour is the stuff of nightmares and I for one have every admiration for those Prison Officers who work with such people. Imagine having a group 6 paedophiles going through their offences in every detail so that you can work on their offending behaviour ( it would take too long to explain this in full detail). How would you cope with this? Would it affect you? Would affect the way you behaved with your own kids?

And the press and the public vilify such staff at every opportunity.


Lee

[satsumaruma]

Another thing I have just thought of is that you do occasionally get some sex-offenders sharing cells with non sex-offenders but usually this is when they are trying to keep quiet about it and brazen it out.

The other type who brazen it out is actually worse. Yardies do not consider themselves as rapists if they rape a white woman. They will co-exist on the same wing as non-sex offenders without fear of reprisal ( so long as there are sufficent other Yardies around to ensure there are no assaults from white or asian prisoners.

[Kuma]

Again, is anyone here advocating the death penalty as a deterrent? And revenge was not necessarily brought up as an issue either. What I was saying is related to the fact that a vast majority of sex offenders are repeat offenders, and many of them due obtain parole. This has lead to a culture in the States where some communities seek to protect themselves (futilely, but understandably) by making it as difficult as possible for sex offenders to live in their area through legislating where they can live and work. Although this seems to be a violation of the sex offender's constitutional rights, to my knowledge few challenges to these laws have succeeded in striking them down. I believe that this is due to an understanding that even after their "debt to society" has been paid, these sex offenders have forfeited their rights in our society and are not to be trusted. No law on the books requires that sex offenders remain incarcerated forever, so what can be done with a sex criminal who is unwelcome in any community and in all likelihood will strike again?

The death penalty is in no way a successful deterrent, nor is it appropriate to for the state to act out in vengeance on behalf of a victim. However, nor do I think that it necessary for the state to provide for violent sex criminals that which it does not provide for the rest of its citizenry (free housing, health care, college-level education, etc.), and at a cost that could send dozens of people to college with a free ride (I'm probably underestimating this by quite a bit). And no one who has responded has offered a viable alternative to the death penalty in light of all this.

Until our society has come to terms with the factors that contribute to the prevalence of sex crime and we can begin to move toward a society that is truly sex/gender-equal, this is going to remain a difficult, painful and morally ambiguous issue with no clearly superior method with which to solve it. It surprises me which side I've come to support in this debate, but when all of the facts are considered, I simply can't see any alternative which would better serve and protect the rights and well-being of those who peacefully abide by the social contract that binds us.

[kartoffelngeist]

So if I'm understanding kuma, we should kill sex offenders because there's nothing else to do with them?

Sats seems to know what he's talking about, so it'll be interesting to see if he agrees or not, but I think a lot of the attitude that prison is free food and board comes from people who've never seen a prison.
I've only ever been in a prison as a tourist (so to speak) as part of a criminology course, and it was no where near as much fun as the media make it out to be. Apart from anything else, they're hugely underfunded and overcrowded - not an ideal combination. I get quite miserable if I'm sitting in my flat all day, the idea of sitting in a tiny cell, most of which are below legal norms because they often have four people sharing a one person cell. Prison food costs something like 30p per day per prisoner, so it's not exactly haute cuisine either. (this is all in France, but I'd imagine it's fairly similar in the UK)

[Kuma]

So if I'm understanding kuma, we should kill sex offenders because there's nothing else to do with them?

Absolutely. I contend that someone who has committed so heinous a crime has forfeited their right to belong to our society and we have no responsibility to support, feed, clothe, nor house them. This requires resources better devoted to those in need who, as I said, abide by our social contract.

And your answer is that prison is not as great as I made it sound? Why not actually address some of my points? If you disagree for a good reason, then let's hear it. That's how minds are changed and misconceptions corrected. I'm fully prepared to have someone change my mind. It sickens me to think that there is no recourse but to take a life when such a crime is committed, but there is no reason that we should have absolute compassion and forgiveness in the face of such monstrosity. Such a criminal has proven themselves no better than an animal, and dangerous animals are removed from society, not in hate, not in anger or vengeance, but in the interest of safeguarding ourselves, each other and the society that we have established and depend upon.

[kartoffelngeist]

And your answer is that prison is not as great as I made it sound? Why not actually address some of my points? If you disagree for a good reason, then let's hear it.

Dude, I was just pointing out the prison thing, wasn't using it to say whether you were right or wrong.

I do think you're wrong though, mostly because I don't think any of us have a right to say who does or doesn't have a right to live. I agree that sexual crimes can be horrific, but so can other crimes.
Where do we draw the line between who we think should be allowed to live or die? Should somebody who goes over the speed limit be killed? Drug dealers? A parent whose child died from something drug related might say so. We all have our own moral standpoint.
Also, where does our right come from to make such huge moral judgements?
Presumably a rapist would make a different moral judgement, I don't think that's any less valid than yours or mine.

I also don't think it's any more than a temporary solution to an isolated problem (i.e. killing one person). It won't help society in the long run as much as putting effort (and money - which won't happen, too unpopular with voters) into better rehabilitation and reintegration.

[Kuma]

Also, where does our right come from to make such huge moral judgements? Presumably a rapist would make a different moral judgement, I don't think that's any less valid than yours or mine.

Yes, we should allow the criminals to decide their punishments, of course.

Your arguments are so full of fallacies that I don't know where to begin. What you've stated is a slippery slope argument and is completely disingenuous. people make similar arguments against same-sex marriage, saying that it will lead to polygamy and bestiality. This is patently false and does not follow.

I am talking specifically about sex crimes. Dragging such ridiculous ideas such as the death penalty for traffic violations serves no purpose. If you actually want to discuss it, try to stay on topic. What do you propose in absence of the death penalty regarding the threat of repeat sex offenders?

[Kuma]

On second thought, I'm going to take this post to the Flames section. This clearly no longer belongs in the women's forum. If you are interested in discussing this further, then go here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=240910#post240910).

[satsumaruma]

Neil, Please lock this.

I think this is getting a bit heavy for this section. I think it would be wise to mointor it also in the flames section. I have tried an answer which I hope may help and I have offered to discuss on PM but I am not convinced the subject matter is suitable reading material especially for younger members.

Apologies for appearing patronising.