Mizoguchi Ha Itto Ryu [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

Kenshi

21-02-2007, 07:18 PM

This is a really great clip (been watching it for the past 2wks). Youtube is good. Ive the Budokans vid on Mizoguchi-ha as well.

What I like about this is ryuha is that its very smooth. Also, there are so few techniques it could be learned in a relative short time. Im def gonna get this under my belt at some point.

fyi the odachi looks nothing like the main itto-ryu school, ono-ha. The kodachi, however, is very similiar.

ZealUK

21-02-2007, 08:48 PM

Have you seen the Muto Ryu videos on Youtube? Very different from Ono-ha Itto Ryu as well. I notice no use of those onigote in the Mizoguchi-ha.

Youtube is a good resource for showing stuff like this. You could say that it introduces people to the practice of koryu. On the other hand, how many people who watch these videos are going to actually start practicing?

It would be nice if the ryuha in question had a say to whether footage from their embu or whatnot was being broadcasted to an audience all over the world though.

Kenshi

22-02-2007, 08:25 AM

Have you seen the Muto Ryu videos on Youtube? Very different from Ono-ha Itto Ryu as well. I notice no use of those onigote in the Mizoguchi-ha.

not sure which ones are on utube.. post them! ive got the budokan vids plus ive seen this and that. i could go into a big discussion on muto-ryu... love to get my dirty paws into that.

basically, its said that Tesshu was the one who really knew what he was doing - and not sasamori - and what is not called ono-ha is in fact nakanishi-ha, and what is now mutto-ryu is the proper ono-ha.

the now soke of ono-ha is a non-kendo person and seems to have made a lot of changes to things....

mizoguchi-ha split from the main line a long time ago.... its a different beast. out of all the mainstream itto-ryu lines, its the one that looks completely different. more so than kogen.

i need a longer life and a couple of extra Bodies to go about learning this stuff. grrrrrrrrrrrr.....

ZealUK

22-02-2007, 09:46 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqXvb28N8hU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0IRMbcXWQ

Short videos, but good nonetheless.

I heard that only a few people practice Muto Ryu these days. Don't they practice tachirikigeiko or whatever its called still? Perhaps a bit intense for us modern day types.

Looks like they have a new hompage...

http://www.mutoryu.jp/

Same with all of these interesting, and perhaps more unusual ryuha, plenty of people talk about it, but very few know what they are saying. I saw those videos from Youtube on a Japanese Muto Ryu website some time ago. I think there were a few more videos as well, but they don't seem to be there anymore.

Kenshi

22-02-2007, 03:59 PM

youtube scheduled downtime... will have a look later. ive seen quite a few clips of it.

theres another website out there with some other vids... not great ones tho.

dont know much about their practice but an ex-student of ours got moved to tokyo (work) and currently practices with them... so ive seen some of his short vids.

Kenshi

22-02-2007, 06:41 PM

Just looked at the vids. Seen them before. they are....okayish. Dont really show anything. The budokans dvd is much better.

On a diff note, there is a Kashima Shinto ryu vid on there is well. First time ive gotten to see it but, unfortuanatly, its not my cup of tea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvEegZ1XAE

Dont know how many times I read "Deity and the sword" ...... :normal:

ZealUK

22-02-2007, 06:55 PM

Isn't deity and the sword about Katori Shinto Ryu?

They like a lot of ukenagashi in Kashima Shinto Ryu. I think they call it Kasumi or something.

Speaking of Katori there's lots of good vids of that on Youtube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBox1dnEd4

Also the full budokan video!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3592341485993959661&q=katori+shinto+ryu

I'll PM you some other stuff.

Kenshi

22-02-2007, 07:03 PM

Isn't deity and the sword about Katori Shinto Ryu?

your right.... what i mean is "legacy and the sword" or whatever it was.

watched the entire katori dvd vid last sun morn in my sempais house. seen a few demos of it up close before.

got your pm... having a look now... cheers.

ZealUK

22-02-2007, 10:10 PM

Awooga Guy

22-02-2007, 11:03 PM

Some damn interesting stuff here. Thanks guys :)

That is all.

Kenshi

23-02-2007, 06:31 AM

Owari Kan Ryu Sojutsu

my sempais big bro is a menkyo-kaiden. or is it hozoin? cant remember... something longer than im used to using. seen both up real close.

one day i will post some pics...

fifthchamber

27-02-2007, 03:05 PM

Kenshi

27-02-2007, 04:45 PM

Legacies Of The Sword is the Kashima Shinryu though, a slightly different line to the Kashima Shinto Ryu line..They are closer to the Shinkage Ryu if I remember correctly..Although the kata are nowhere similar other than in name..I think the Kashima Shinryu has a couple of videos online too...Look for Kunii Zenya or 鹿島神流

Shinryu - Shinto --- your right, thats for the brain cleaning.

The Kunii Zenya (shinryu) stuff ive seen before and this youtube video have nothing in (outward appearance) common with shinkage-ryu.

Kenshi

27-02-2007, 07:02 PM

added some koryu pics online today, so please check it out. prob be adding more as the evening progresses... maybe!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eikenkai/sets/

ZealUK

27-02-2007, 07:12 PM

Nice pictures! I was talking about those Yoshin Ryu girls with my sempai this weekend. They were pretty impressive in the Kumamoto taikai, very aggressive.

Kenshi

27-02-2007, 07:59 PM

ive more pics...

most of these ones were not taken by me (unlike my kendo shots).

i lived for 2 years in the town where Yoshin-ryu is taught.. and I never realised it until I left!!!! not that i would particularly like to learn it. i think they have a very polished embu... prob one of the best organised ive seen. first time i saw it was at the paris taikai 2001. really cool. but the girls in the demo are high school girls and stuff...... not sure how "koryu" it really is, if you get my drift...

fifthchamber

05-03-2007, 03:56 PM

Hi George..
I agree..They don't seem to have much in common at all...The names are realy the only obvious thing I can see that links them together..The Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and the Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage too have kata names and groupings that are rather too similar to hide the family line..But the waza themselves are so varied it is insane..
Cool pictures..I always like taking photos of the Saburi Ryu...They have some interesting kata too...Single man kata and high one legged Kamae make good photos...

Kenshi

05-03-2007, 06:13 PM

But the waza themselves are so varied it is insane..

And you see this "insanity" in schools with the same name and recent branching as well!!! Thus, it doesnt matter how "legitimate" the thing is that you are practising, it has certainly changed since its inception. No-one can say with any accuracy "we are musashi/kamiizumi/Itto Ittosai/whomever" ... what you are doing is the same as the current soke/headmaster/teacher guy or girl.

You caught me on this one - whats "Saburi Ryu" ?

fifthchamber

06-03-2007, 09:06 AM

Saitama Steve

06-03-2007, 11:45 AM

Saburi Ryu is the Sojutsu school you have the picture of with the men dressed in armour...One in a full red Yoroi...The school has armoured two man kata and also a singular section of techniques done in suhada style and single man...The spear is an ugly looking one with a long, thick blade and a cross bar with another shorter spear attached..Like a jujiyari I guess, or close to a sharp edged Jutte...
Damn cool stuff...
　佐分利流槍術
http://park1.aeonnet.ne.jp/~yari-iai/

It's more a Kagitsuki Yari, rather than a jumonji yari. Jumonji usually refers to the number ten shape made by the blades. The thing with Saburi-ryu is that they slash in an almost similar manner to some koryu naginata schools. Ellis Amdur stated some time recently, that it was almost a reverse engineered weapon - A throwback to the naginata, instead of the cheaper, easier to train, Su-yari.

Kenshi

06-03-2007, 12:09 PM

actually seen them a couple of times pretty close up... will check out my other pics of them, plus the embu brochure.

Fonsz

09-03-2007, 07:36 AM

Just remembered these rather good videos as well...

Taisha Ryu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX4g-2Xw3tI&mode=related&search=

Owari Kan Ryu Sojutsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeHuv2M5NY&mode=related&search=
Very nice indeed. In the end of the Taisha Ryu the friendly old is asked something about Kendo and then demonstrates a Men kaeshi Do. After that he shows some smooth looking Kendo. I was wondering if someone can tell me what he is saying after that. He looks very friendly but lethal when in action.

Kenzan

09-03-2007, 07:50 AM

On this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94i1kKe0fhE

I found it absolutely riveting.
What struck me so about this particular Kata, was the in almost all of the cuts, there was that sort of "drawing the blade it's full length" at the end of the cut, which I can only *assume* part of the mechanics. On seeing this Kata, it looked very natural, from a physics point of view, as opposed to many Kata I have seen which appear a bit more "stylized."
Kendo and JSA when represented properly are simply wonderfully elegant to behold, aren't they?

ZealUK

09-03-2007, 09:28 AM

Very nice indeed. In the end of the Taisha Ryu the friendly old is asked something about Kendo and then demonstrates a Men kaeshi Do. After that he shows some smooth looking Kendo. I was wondering if someone can tell me what he is saying after that. He looks very friendly but lethal when in action.

He says something like 'to study the way of using the body, using the heart, and to practice hard by yourself is the way to begin understanding Taisha Ryu.' then mumble mumble mumble deshi...

I find him pretty hard to understand!

Kenzan, I'm sure you can appreciate the physics of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZ_nbpwsaU

Fonsz

09-03-2007, 06:22 PM

He says something like 'to study the way of using the body, using the heart, and to practice hard by yourself is the way to begin understanding Taisha Ryu.' then mumble mumble mumble deshi...

I find him pretty hard to understand!

Kenzan, I'm sure you can appreciate the physics of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yZ_nbpwsaU
Mumble mumble mumble student? He is an oracle indeed never the less he doesn't really need language really to get his message across.
What I like about all these ryu is that you hear a Kiai, there is an intent it looks "alive". The dynamics of what we try to learn in Kendo is also there. Everytime I see Iaido I can't lose the feeling that it's "dead" there's no Kiai. In my mind it's only form. Flame me if you like but these inspiring movies with the lethal old men are so much refreshing to see.
The Taisha Ryu lethal old man does have a nice motto where you can change the Taisha Ryu for Kendo or any other art. Would it be too large to be put on a Tenegui?

shred_lord

09-03-2007, 06:43 PM

Everytime I see Iaido I can't lose the feeling that it's "dead" there's no Kiai. In my mind it's only form. Flame me if you like Gotta say, you're either not watching the right people, or not watching properly.

Put out his eye with hot coals and feed him to the sloths!

Hey, he did say flame him if I want. :nervous:

Fonsz

09-03-2007, 06:48 PM

Gotta say, you're either not watching the right people, or not watching properly.

Put out his eye with hot coals and feed him to the sloths!

Hey, he did say flame him if I want. :nervous:
I guess I'm not watching the right people, but when I look at the footage of Otake Sensei I dare you to display his counterpart in Iaido with some film if possible.
I'm wearing sunglasses to keep my eyes and not as sloth feed.:cool:

Kenshi

09-03-2007, 09:41 PM

Everytime I see Iaido I can't lose the feeling that it's "dead" there's no Kiai.

Actually, despite a suspicion that you may have said I "insulted" someone in another thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13272&page=3) (not posting there in respect to the person who started the thread), im going to back you up here... why? ... because I think youve made a very interesting point... but are slightly off base.

First off, kiai or no kiai is irrelevent. There are styles of iai/batto that use kiai. Does this add to the "aliveness" of it.... I personally think it doesnt. Like in kendo, some people kiai but with no... balls. Then other people kiai a little, but still have a strong presence.

I think the "deadness" that you see in iai is simply because the majority of people doing it are not very good. This includes people with very high grades. Also, when iai is seperated completely from where it belongs - as part of a larger curriculum - then you get something odd. Ive definetly mentioned this before.

you're either not watching the right people, or not watching properly.

Is true in the former, but not the latter (in my opinion). Good iai doesnt take knowledge of whats going on to appreciate it. The "you just dont know whats going on" is an easy escape route!

---

I wanted to expand on this but im just home from keiko. Got asakeiko tomorrow and keiko again in the evening.... im tired and need to eat/sleep. Ill leave you here... maybe!

Anyway, this is a koryu thread not an iaido one...... (eh? what did he just say...?)

Hisham

09-03-2007, 10:01 PM

In my inexperienced oppinion, i see the iai cut more less as a sucker punch, for me it's logical that there would be no kiai in that category of sword arts.

ZealUK

09-03-2007, 10:13 PM

I agree with Kenshi's point about kiai.

Kiai can be vocalised or silent. Having said this its fairly obvious when 'it' isn't there. However during the Edo period beginners in Jigen Ryu were told to 'kiai until there is blood in your mouth'. So it needs to be external to start with from that viewpoint!

I personally have a fairly critical view of seitei iai, for example - and that it my right as a personal opinion. Nonetheless to see a skilled practitioner is impressive - perhaps mainly for the level of control exercised.

Hyaku put it very well when he noted some iai groups have to put a mat down on the floor for outdoor demonstrations!

Fonsz

09-03-2007, 10:14 PM

Actually, despite a suspicion that you may have said I "insulted" someone in another thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13272&page=3) (not posting there in respect to the person who started the thread), im going to back you up here... why? ... because I think youve made a very interesting point... but are slightly off base.

First off, kiai or no kiai is irrelevent. There are styles of iai/batto that use kiai. Does this add to the "aliveness" of it.... I personally think it doesnt. Like in kendo, some people kiai but with no... balls. Then other people kiai a little, but still have a strong presence.

I think the "deadness" that you see in iai is simply because the majority of people doing it are not very good. This includes people with very high grades. Also, when iai is seperated completely from where it belongs - as part of a larger curriculum - then you get something odd. Ive definetly mentioned this before.

Is true in the former, but not the latter (in my opinion). Good iai doesnt take knowledge of whats going on to appreciate it. The "you just dont know whats going on" is an easy escape route!

---

I wanted to expand on this but im just home from keiko. Got asakeiko tomorrow and keiko again in the evening.... im tired and need to eat/sleep. Ill leave you here... maybe!

Anyway, this is a koryu thread not an iaido one...... (eh? what did he just say...?)
Insulted was in quotation marks maybe hurt feelings was better. I have no intention to "insult" you since I always appreciate your candor and your insights based on useful experience. I for one would like to say that people should stop practicing Iaido and practice a proper (legitimate) Kenjutsu.
All the fuzzyness that surrounds Iaido is not present at the most Koryu that I have seen and practiced. Your distinction between the Kiai is correct but in Iaido I miss the spirit that is in Kendo even with a shite Kiai. So I hope you would be so kind to not leave me (us) here and care to eloborate and have a scientific discussion if you don't mind.

Kenshi

09-03-2007, 10:32 PM

kiai until there is blood in your mouth

Jigen-Jigen-Jigen-Jigen-Jigen-Jigen!!!

I have no intention to "insult" you

Takes a lot more than a comment on an internet forum to insult me!!

since I always appreciate your candor and your insights based on useful experience.

Well, thanks, but im pretty much in the same boat as everyone. The only difference I have is that im in a lucky situation plus im willing to talk about it. There are plenty of other people out here with more experience and more knowledge about these things but that just keep it to themselves.

I for one would like to say that people should stop practicing Iaido and practice a proper (legitimate) Kenjutsu.

I think that this is pushing it a bit too far. If people want to do iaido because they like it (I like it) then thats fine. It depends on how honest they are about what it is they are doing and why.

All the fuzzyness that surrounds Iaido is not present at the most Koryu that I have seen and practiced.

To this I might add that there are a lot of legitimate people doing koryu that is dead in the sense that its been watered down so much it resembles dancing. Check out yoshin-ryu as mentioned above. Great embu... not much else (mind you, I make this judgement based on their embu).

So I hope you would be so kind to not leave me (us) here and care to eloborate and have a scientific discussion if you don't mind.

An opinionated discussion I could manage, but a scientific one?!?!

shred_lord

09-03-2007, 11:14 PM

I for one would like to say that people should stop practicing Iaido and practice a proper (legitimate) Kenjutsu.Please clarify, are you saying that Iaido is less legitimate than kenjutsu? (Honest question)

Fonsz

10-03-2007, 12:46 AM

Please clarify, are you saying that Iaido is less legitimate than kenjutsu? (Honest question)
I have been told that Iaido has been created during the time that Japan was occupied by the US just after the War. They "tricked" the powers that be with the description of Iaido as something peaceful to meditate or for want of a better equition(sp?) as the way of tea. Purely as a form and with no significance to the real stuff that made Japan so bloodthirsty and dangerous.
The trick has worked so people could get the sword feel, they also added that for Kendo folk it was good to get a sword feeling instead of a "stick" feeling.
That is why (I've been told) that the stances in Iaido resemble the Kendo stances (Toes pointing forward). With all the Kenjutsu that I have seen the feet are perpendicular or nearly. When I see a Kenjutsu cut you slice something or someone in half. The Iaido ones that I have seen are stylized Kendo cuts. If someone wants to practice Iaido they are of course free to do so. But the relevance with the Koryu is for what I can see not there. It's not that Iaido isn't legitimate but I think it has nothing to do with the real thing as demonstrated in all these great footage on this thread.
I have been told this history by a Kenjutsu Sensei who has also practiced Iaido. He told me that never the twain shall meet because of this. People that have practiced Kendo will pick up faster the intricacies of Kenjutsu then people who have practiced Iaido. I have seen this quite a few times.

This is of course my personal opinion because you asked for it. On the other hand if someone puts a shinken on my throat and I have to say Uncle than I will of course. I'm not crazy you know.

Fonsz

10-03-2007, 12:49 AM

.

An opinionated discussion I could manage, but a scientific one?!?!
Yeah well that's what I meant of course. Opinionated with scientific proof of the pudding and that sort of stuff.

shred_lord

10-03-2007, 01:32 AM

I have been told that Iaido has been created during the time that Japan was occupied by the US just after the War. They "tricked" the powers that be with the description of Iaido as something peaceful to meditate or for want of a better equition(sp?) as the way of tea. Purely as a form and with no significance to the real stuff that made Japan so bloodthirsty and dangerous.Seitei Iai was, yes.
The trick has worked so people could get the sword feel, they also added that for Kendo folk it was good to get a sword feeling instead of a "stick" feeling.
That is why (I've been told) that the stances in Iaido resemble the Kendo stances (Toes pointing forward). With all the Kenjutsu that I have seen the feet are perpendicular or nearly.I have not seen perpendicular footwork, yaya hamni at most, and often parallel. (Like in the Itto ryu vid that started the thread) When I see a Kenjutsu cut you slice something or someone in half. The Iaido ones that I have seen are stylized Kendo cuts.This is not true of the Muso Shinden Ryu Iai, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai OR Seitei Iai. If you have seen this, it is a koryu I am unfamiliar with (like...Most!). If someone wants to practice Iaido they are of course free to do so. But the relevance with the Koryu is for what I can see not there.You seem to think Iaido is not Koryu.... I have the feeling that you are confusing Seitei Iai, the inter school grading sylabus if you will, with being all of iaido. The Roshiku Guys would have you for that :)

Fonsz

10-03-2007, 02:41 AM

Seitei Iai was, yes.I have not seen perpendicular footwork, yaya hamni at most, and often parallel. (Like in the Itto ryu vid that started the thread)This is not true of the Muso Shinden Ryu Iai, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai OR Seitei Iai. If you have seen this, it is a koryu I am unfamiliar with (like...Most!).You seem to think Iaido is not Koryu.... I have the feeling that you are confusing Seitei Iai, the inter school grading sylabus if you will, with being all of iaido. The Roshiku Guys would have you for that :)
Perpendicular might be too much but I meant more perpendicular than Kendo.
The Koryu that I have seen live is Katori and Kashima Shin. Also the fact that all the Iaido that I see is someone who's swishing his Iaito in the air with no opponent is also something that I think is odd.
I might be biased because of the reasons I just told you. But I will scream "Uncle" when the Roshiku Gang (it sure sounds dangerous) will have me

Kenshi

10-03-2007, 07:37 AM

Also the fact that all the Iaido that I see is someone who's swishing his Iaito in the air with no opponent is also something that I think is odd.

Me too. But I cant see how you can do it another way.

As for iai not being koryu.... id say its an illegitimate offspring (like me!). If you want more of this conversation out of me then its beers in Osaka!!

Ok... asageiko....

ZealUK

10-03-2007, 11:05 AM

Perpendicular might be too much but I meant more perpendicular than Kendo.
The Koryu that I have seen live is Katori and Kashima Shin. Also the fact that all the Iaido that I see is someone who's swishing his Iaito in the air with no opponent is also something that I think is odd.
I might be biased because of the reasons I just told you. But I will scream "Uncle" when the Roshiku Gang (it sure sounds dangerous) will have me

I used to be in Eikoku Roshukai! I think you're oversimplifying things a bit here. Iaido is not a single entity, and there is a fairly large amount of variation in the schools available. MJER, for example practices kumitachi at higher levels (very rare though).

Remember its possible to look at all this stuff from different angles. Iaido guy could criticise kendo people for not being able to cut properly, not knowing the shape or feel of a real sword. Kendo guys ask how iaido people can they practice without a responding opponent, how kata are valuable in some instances.

People from other koryu schools are harder to pin down, as they may do a combination of training methods. Lets say they use bokuto to perform kata, for the sake of argument. These people may question the approach kendo and iai take to training, but once again they neither use real swords (for the mostpart - I've seen some lovely kumitachi with shinken) nor do they participate in matches with a freely responding opponent (some schools practiced taryu jiai, gekken, shinken shobu kendo, etc).

Everything is valuable depending on how you look at it.

Fonsz

10-03-2007, 03:32 PM

I used to be in Eikoku Roshukai! I think you're oversimplifying things a bit here. Iaido is not a single entity, and there is a fairly large amount of variation in the schools available. MJER, for example practices kumitachi at higher levels (very rare though).

Everything is valuable depending on how you look at it.
Uncle! Uncle Uncle!
The fact that I'm oversimplifying is the story of my life.
You may be right that Iaido isn't a single entity but they sure like to be one and act like one. My experience with Iaido folk is scarce and I would like to keep it that way.
I know of a dojo or two that has split because the Iaido folk were high ranking and had therefore the opinion that their view points were more valid. I.e. they were calling the shots. The Kendo folk upped and left.
So any derogative remarks are based on these experiences. Still I prefer a Koryu over the Iaido that I have seen. I have seen gradings at the Kyoto Tai Kai of Iaido and it still looked the same as what I have seen back home. The difference to me was that they were better dressed. I sure hope that you're not insulted and I will cry Uncle the moment we meet. If that's any help.;)

satsumaruma

19-03-2007, 08:13 AM

I have just caught up with this thread and blow me.

Some time ago i posted a query about some stuf that I was being ataught but we did not know what it was. Sensei had learned it in Japan but had forgotten what it was called over the years.

Somebody mentioned it may be Mizoguchi Ha Itto Ryu but I could not verify it.

Saw the you tube video and it is exactly the same.

happiness is.

Kenshi

19-03-2007, 09:56 AM

Somebody mentioned it may be Mizoguchi Ha Itto Ryu but I could not verify it.

There is def people doing it (semi-secretly?) in the UK. Ive seen videos of Ozawa demoing it in Britain from years ago... like in the mid 80s or something. Its a shame it hasnt spread through the BKA.

satsumaruma

19-03-2007, 10:57 PM

I wonder if that was where my own Sensei picked it up from. It would certainly be from about that time.

You mention videos of Ozawa Sensei doing demos? have you come across any for sale?

Lee

Kenshi

20-03-2007, 12:00 AM

I wonder if that was where my own Sensei picked it up from. It would certainly be from about that time.

You mention videos of Ozawa Sensei doing demos? have you come across any for sale?

Lee

Its got to be from Ozawa..... the videos I saw were all private so were not for sale. Sorry, I dont know anything else really.

ZealUK

20-03-2007, 07:51 AM

I've seen Gary O'Donnell from Doshinkenyukai do the kodachi kata from Mizoguchi-ha Ittoryu, so I assume he knows the odachi set as well.

Not sure about what the organisation of the ryu is in Japan. The group affiliated with the Zen Nippon Kobudo Kyokai is out of Fukushima-ken though by the looks of things.

Of course you could turn this thread into an argument about whether you need to be associated with the ryu in Japan in order to be learning 'real' Mizoguchi-ha Ittoryu. I suppose that's a bit like the situation (so I hear) with Haruna sensei teaching Niten Ichi Ryu kata.

Of course these days it can't be hard to give them a call and organise a seminar or something. Most of these guys are probably high ranking kendoka as well. Just the cost and interest of people in the UK, as well as a good deal of politics in the way I assume.

Kenshi

20-03-2007, 11:35 AM

Yeah, I heard GD knows them. Didnt want to mention anything because they have been teaching it under wraps (??). Anyway, as I said, dont really know anything about that.

whether you need to be associated with the ryu in Japan in order to be learning 'real' Mizoguchi-ha Ittoryu. I suppose that's a bit like the situation (so I hear) with Haruna sensei teaching Niten Ichi Ryu kata.

Thats a hard one... but if its good stuff and the group isnt claiming anything it isnt, then I personally think its fine. As you know, all these ryuhas fortunes go up and down with their sokes and senior members... so the viability of what they are doing changes depending on the ability of the people doing it.

In my current and prior situation im am/was all "legit" ... but ive seen people who are not "legit" perform better than many people that arent, and vice versa. Anyway.

Of course these days it can't be hard to give them a call and organise a seminar or something. Most of these guys are probably high ranking kendoka as well. Just the cost and interest of people in the UK, as well as a good deal of politics in the way I assume.

Yeah. It would be really cool and im guessing there would be a great interest in it. Also, with this ryuha in particular there are so few kata... so you could probably transmit it well abroad to kendo and iaido people without to much fuss.

I might start making some enquiries into finding someone to teach me around here.....

ZealUK

20-03-2007, 04:50 PM

Yeah, I heard GD knows them. Didnt want to mention anything because they have been teaching it under wraps (??). Anyway, as I said, dont really know anything about that.

Whoops didn't know that. Regardless, Gary is certainly a very good kendoka and kendo teacher, so there's no doubt that he knows what he's doing.

Thats a hard one... but if its good stuff and the group isnt claiming anything it isnt, then I personally think its fine. As you know, all these ryuhas fortunes go up and down with their sokes and senior members... so the viability of what they are doing changes depending on the ability of the people doing it.

Well that's true. In many ways the system is defined by the present head and seniors. If they aren't up to scratch, how can the students be any good? Its pretty nice to go to big embu and see the difference between those people who are good at what they do, and those who are excellent.

I heard Mizoguchi-ha do some of the Ono-ha kata as well, but I'm not sure about that. There are lots of similarities to kendo no kata in there...

Kenshi

20-03-2007, 05:27 PM

Whoops didn't know that. Regardless, Gary is certainly a very good kendoka and kendo teacher, so there's no doubt that he knows what he's doing.

Yup. If i was over there now id be asking him for instruction in these kata.

I heard Mizoguchi-ha do some of the Ono-ha kata as well, but I'm not sure about that. There are lots of similarities to kendo no kata in there...

With only 8 kata or so in your curriculum its easy understandable why they would supplement it with other stuff... and these 2 systems would go together seemlessly. If its the current Fukushima-ken-ren that you are talking about then this would be an instance where there is a group studying something (ono-ha) away from the "legit" line.

satsumaruma

20-03-2007, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by ZealUK
Whoops didn't know that. Regardless, Gary is certainly a very good kendoka and kendo teacher, so there's no doubt that he knows what he's doing.

Yup. If i was over there now id be asking him for instruction in these kata.

I have been PM'ing Gareth at the Doshinkenyukai about the possibility of some kind of MHIR seminar - still waiting for a reply. This thread has prompted me to speak with Keith Rose and see if he can help get something sorted. If I can I will post on these forums to see if anyone is interested.

Only thing is - will anyone's nose be put out of joint? I know from personal experience how 'sniffy' JSA people get about certain things which doesn't pervade other MA's.

thoughts please from people more experienced than I on this subject.

Lee

ZealUK

21-03-2007, 03:13 PM

I suppose all you can do is ask politely. If they don't want to teach it then that is their purogative. Some people practice these things for their own satisfaction, and wouldn't dream of teaching it to anybody, others are willing to share their knowledge.

Have you noticed that in all the kata on the video the uchidachi side 'wins'? I was reading something about the discrepancy between sen no sen in kendo shiai and jigeiko, and go no sen in kendo no kata. Mizoguchi-ha fits interestingly in the middle I suppose.

Interesting stuff, but I'm happy doing what I'm doing down here in Kagoshima!

satsumaruma

22-03-2007, 02:55 AM

Have emailed the very respected Keith Rose and he confirms that he knows this set of kata well enough to teach and indicated he may be willing to run a seminar if I arrange venue etc.

He did not think it would be improper for him to teach this but did say there is always a risk of learning too much stuff thereby not learning anything very well, so it may be selective in some way. We'll see.

I will advertise on these forums should we set anything up.

Thanks for your advice.

Lee

Kenshi

22-03-2007, 09:16 AM

Brilliant, im jealous!!!! Good luck.

This ryuha is pretty much open and out there... so it would be unusual if they said they didnt want to teach it. People with kendo experience should pick it up pretty easily.

Kenshi

23-03-2007, 07:12 PM

not mizoguchi-ha, but quite interesting video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUrjvbxeYY)

ZealUK

23-03-2007, 07:21 PM

not mizoguchi-ha, but quite interesting video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUrjvbxeYY)

Inaba sensei teaches at the Shiseikan dojo at Meiji Jingu. I'm not sure if teaches the full gamut of Kashima Shinryu, or just a condensed version.

The black and white clip looks like Kunii Zen'ya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vk_AD3BIh4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQfMupTDGjM&NR

Kenshi

23-03-2007, 07:40 PM

had seen the kunii ones before, but not the inaba one.

skipped keiko tonight and am feeling guilty/depressed. got keiko tomorrow and sunday, but still....

ZealUK

23-03-2007, 08:24 PM

Hey man I had Norovirus for the last couple of days so I did nothing.

Even worse there's a tategi right outside my kitchen window as a constant reminder to practice. I can almost hear it saying 'hit me, hit meee...'

Kenshi

24-03-2007, 09:23 AM

Well I built a tsuki-pad thing in my kitchen a couple of weeks back, so I plugged in a 100 katate-zukis just to keep me happy.

Kenshi

20-08-2007, 01:18 PM

Fred27

20-08-2007, 03:11 PM

Discovered some newer vids: TSKSR 1 (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=dvf1N1Sfv-w&eurl=), TSKSR 2 (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z2yY1T5oYY&eurl=), and a real mans koryu, OHIR (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=NlInzndKv_Q&eurl=).

The guy that filmed & produced the first two katori-clips actually has a user-account on YouTube. (its not the user "honest 1942")

The last "Real mans koryu" (hehe) is a clip taken from a sort of Daito-ryu Aikijutsu memorial embu. (I have the full video.) I cant remember if it was a memorial for for Takeda Sensei or if it was celebrating the legendary founding of the ryu. (maybe both) Either way, it was a big embu with people from most of the major branches of Daito-ryu. Takeda Sensei was said to have trained in Ono-ha Itto-ryu and passed it along to some of his students which is the reason it is demonstrated at a Daito-ryu gathering.

Kenshi

20-08-2007, 03:28 PM

The last "Real mans koryu" (hehe)...Takeda Sensei was said to have trained in Ono-ha Itto-ryu and passed it along to some of his students which is the reason it is demonstrated at a Daito-ryu gathering.

But its not Daito-ryu people demonstrating..... mysterious! Is this the entire itto-ryu section from the vid?

How old is the vid.... 80s? Soke is still spirghtyl Good to see.

Fred27

20-08-2007, 03:47 PM

But its not Daito-ryu people demonstrating..... mysterious! Is this the entire itto-ryu section from the vid?

How old is the vid.... 80s? Soke is still spirghtyl Good to see.

Yes the Itto-ryu is from the same video. It was made in 1992. You can find more info on the video here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/productdetails?code=dvd19 (http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/productdetails?code=dvd19)

*edit*

Not THAT mysterious :)

To quote the above site:

* Daito-ryu Aiki Budo - Katsuyuki Kondo
* Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai - Yusuke Inoue
* Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai - Hakaru Mori
* Aikikai Hombu Dojo - Masatoshi Yasuno
* Yoseikan Budo - Minoru Mochizuki
* Onoha Itto-ryu Kenjutsu - Takemi Sasamori

Kenshi

20-08-2007, 04:09 PM

Cheers.

Not THAT mysterious :)

I was being kind!!

Saitama Steve

21-08-2007, 04:31 AM

Inaba sensei teaches at the Shiseikan dojo at Meiji Jingu. I'm not sure if teaches the full gamut of Kashima Shinryu, or just a condensed version.

As far as I know, Inaba Minoru sensei is only licenced to teach the kenjutsu of Kashima Shin-ryu. They're not affiliated with Seki sensei's group to my knowledge.

Fred27

21-08-2007, 05:04 AM

As far as I know, Inaba Minoru sensei is only licenced to teach the kenjutsu of Kashima Shin-ryu. They're not affiliated with Seki sensei's group to my knowledge.

I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers, but Karl Friday, (Menkyo Kaiden of Kashima Shinryu), claims here:
http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002&L=iaido-l&D=0&P=13506 (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002&L=iaido-l&D=0&P=13506) that Inaba Minoru has not recieved any sort of license/diploma from any of the two previous KSR headmasters.

Saitama Steve

21-08-2007, 05:29 PM

I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers, but Karl Friday, (Menkyo Kaiden of Kashima Shinryu), claims here:
http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002&L=iaido-l&D=0&P=13506 (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002&L=iaido-l&D=0&P=13506) that Inaba Minoru has not recieved any sort of license/diploma from any of the two previous KSR headmasters.

Hmm, either that or from what I was told, he was only licenced to teach the kenjutsu and nothing else of the ryuha.

Fred27

21-08-2007, 05:54 PM

Hmm, either that or from what I was told, he was only licenced to teach the kenjutsu and nothing else of the ryuha.

Well this is what Karl Friday stated in the above topic:

Inaba studied KSR for less than a year, and never received any official
diploma from Kunii Zen'ya, from Seki, or from the Kashima-Shinryu
Federation of Martial Sciences, but he did, at the request of Kunii's
widow, receive permission to teach kenjutsu (but NOT other weapons; he had
never actually trained at any KSR weapons other than the sword) at the dojo
of the Meiji Grand Shrine.

Saitama Steve

22-08-2007, 04:27 PM

Well this is what Karl Friday stated in the above topic:

Funny that several people have seen him teach KSR naginata at the Meiji Jingu dojo.

Kenshi

22-08-2007, 11:35 PM

They great mysteries of koryu legitimacy!!!

Fred27

23-08-2007, 01:30 AM

Funny that several people have seen him teach KSR naginata at the Meiji Jingu dojo.

Mr. Tissier's swordwork derives from Kashima-Shinryu, via Inaba Minoru, the head Aikido instructor at the Meiji Grand Shrine in Tokyo. It is NOT, however, Kashima-Shinryu--in either a formal or a practical sense.

Inaba studied KSR for less than a year, and never received any official diploma from Kunii Zen'ya, from Seki, or from the Kashima-Shinryu
Federation of Martial Sciences, but he did, at the request of Kunii's
widow, receive permission to teach kenjutsu (but NOT other weapons; he had never actually trained at any KSR weapons other than the sword) at the dojo of the Meiji Grand Shrine.

I dont know what Inaba does or who/what he teaches, but I take the word of Karl Friday over "several people" any day.

*edit*

Granted. THe above post was made 7 years ago and maybe Inaba has since taken up official studies with the KSR main group, but until I see it in writing somewhere I'm more inclined to believe the Karl Friday statement.