"Cut" or "strike?"

[Charlie]

Okay, maybe I'm thinking about this too much. For some time now I have been making a conscious effort to refer to the waza we do in kendo as "cuts" and not "strikes." Cuts you do with a sharp implement. Strikes you do with a blunt one. My use of language in this way is an attempt to remind myself that, no matter where kendo takes me, it is at heart one way to study sword fighting. What do you think?

[shred_lord]

I voted Cut and always try to use cut. But strike is such a generic term that it's the most acceptable alternative (eg better that hit or slash) and at least sounds like a positive action.

[NorthernKendoka]

I voted option 3 (other) since I'm a bit inconsistent when using english. The interesting thing is that the swedish word that is most commonly used can mean: cut, stab and in some cases strike. So a simple question of word usage instead leaves me with a more philosophical question, however from a kendo context I would say that I usually talk about cutting.

[Charlie]

Hmmm. Anyone know what the Japanese word is for executing a waza? Is it cut or strike or something more ambiguous?

[Obulco]

Hmmm. Anyone know what the Japanese word is for executing a waza? Is it cut or strike or something more ambiguous?

I do not know Japanese, but I have a couple of Kendo books in that language. I have asked my wife several times about what is the word they use and she tells me it is “utsu” which is close to “hit” or “strike” and not to “cut”.

[nodachi]

I use them interchangeably. I am inconsistent, but also it depends on the context of the situation. For example, some beginner ninja wannabes need time to learn what kendo is really about so I would refrain from saying "cut". These particular people need some detachment from movie thoughts to see what kendo is really about so I would go more for strike, getting ippon, or worst of all, how to get a point. The vocab may make me cringe, but we aren't learning kendo to learn how to cut people and some people need to learn this lesson. With people who seem genuine in learning kendo for other reasons, I use cut to remind them of the connections with what we do to old swordmanship.

So it depends on who I am talking to...

[Masahiro]

when i am explaining something I tend to just use "cut" and "strike" interchangebly. A while back there was a thread about "do we strike in kendo or do we cut" and to that, i asked the kendo forumites why is swinging a baseball bat through an incoming baseball called "batting" and not "cutting". To that no one answered. And that is why I believed, the word appropriate depends on two variables. 1) the instrument being used, and 2)the way it is being used. Let's face it, we do not do kendo with a sword, it is a stick. thus, as much as anyone else wants to debate, and become all philosophical about it. A large number of waza(s) we execute, (to me) would be called a "strike". only "cuts" that end up below the target is a cut to me. say for example, when you cut your opponents kote, and your shinai doesn't bounce up but rather push down on the kote buton.

[groms]

I agree with the previous.
I´m only a beginner, but as far as I´ve seen, only some do-"hits" (hiki-do, gyaku-do...) feel/look like cuts, or are executed like it. I´ve never seen a men or kote strike that seemed like a cut. By this I mean that for it to be a cut, the shinai would need to "follow through". Usually, strikes in kendo "smack" the target and bounce back or shinai is pulled back.
But I´m no expert here, so it would be nice if someone have more opinions/enlightenment...

[enkorat]

I have to agree with Obulco-san. The Japanese verb used in Kendo is predominantly "Utsu", which means "to hit or to strike", the command form the the verb being "Ute". For example in Detroit and sometimes U-M practice you'll hear "men wo ute!" during the sequence of warmup drills?

Now, even though I try to pretend that I don't speak Japanese, one of our mutual acquaintances (sensei with the cool kid) who happens to also instruct me in Japanese regardless of my ineffectual protestations as to my ineptness with the Japanese language, has said during a practice about tennuchi and zanshin something along the lines of "when you hit, you must hit and not bounce up after you hit. This shows a lack of tenouchi, and if you were cutting with a sword, you would not be able to cut this way"

Germaine to this particular conversation, he used the Japanese word "utsu" when referring to my shinai, but used the word "kiru" or "cut" when referring to a shinken.


Hope that helps a bit

[Kuri]

I use strike as generic term.
If I specifically refer to men/kote/do, then I may use cut and if I refer to tsuki, then I may use thrust. When talking about targets in general I will then use strike which will encompass both cuts and thrusts.

[Hisham]

What i was thought is that the motion of the shinai when touching the target should be that of cutting as if you were using a shinken.

[bullet08]

lately i've been using hit. not sure why.. i think hit sounds quicker than cut, or strike. and i want my kohai to understand the 'cut' we make is one beat action, and it should be quick.. see too many doing up then cut/hit/strike, two beats..

pete

[Charlie]

Germaine to this particular conversation, he used the Japanese word "utsu" when referring to my shinai, but used the word "kiru" or "cut" when referring to a shinken. Hope that helps a bit

Clear as mud! No, I think I get it. The shinai strikes but represents a cut. They are similar but not, and perhaps I am overthinking it. It's a strike that could be a cut if done with shinken but acknowledgement, too, that a shinai could never cut.

By the way, you guys who feel like the only kendo waza that feel like a cutting action is doh, this must because doh is the only one that "slices" through/past your opponent. But don't you think of men as a cut from the top of the head to about the nose or chin, and kote as a cutting off the hand at the wrist?

[Awooga Guy]

Awooga Guy tends to prefer strike, as it doesn't imply horrible wounding, pain and blood. Awooga Guy definitely uses strike when talking to non-kendoka.






That is all.

[mingshi]

If you take a look into the dictionary, utsu can have multiple meanings, ranging from hitting baseballs, hammering nails, to firing guns, and attacking the enemies. Whatever you say in English, something is lost in translation. So just try not to be too picky...

[groms]

By the way, you guys who feel like the only kendo waza that feel like a cutting action is doh, this must because doh is the only one that "slices" through/past your opponent. But don't you think of men as a cut from the top of the head to about the nose or chin, and kote as a cutting off the hand at the wrist?
Reply With Quote

Not really, because you stop the shinai with tenouchi directly after a men og kote strike, and even pull your shinai back in some cases to display zanshin correctly. If I wanted to cut men or kote with a sharp sword, I would want to cut through my target, not get stuck halfway. Atleast that´s how I was taught and see the (missed) strikes of the uchidachi in the katas I´ve learned, and seen. Take ippon-me for example. Uchidachi strikes from jodan to cut through the opponent, and as a result overbalances when he misses, creating suki for the opponent.
I know there´s more behind the kata than that, and lots more that I don´t see yet, but I meant it as an example of how I would see a cut. Compare it to when uchidachi misses in kihon-wasa 5, he stops the shinai with tenouchi at head-level (as in suburi). That´s not an intention to cut through the opponent in my eyes.
But as I said, I´m not the expert, so correct me if I´m wrong.

[Charlie]

Well, groms, the way I see it there are both huge cuts that go all the way through an opponent and those that stop partway down. In other words, there's a big kesa giri that goes from the shoulder across the chest and belly and out the hip but there's also, as I said, the men cut that splits the skull. I belive all cuts need to be stopped by the sword-wielder at some point depending on your intention and tenouchi is the vehicle for how this is done. So, for example, if you were to cut a person's head you would want to sink the blade in a few inches, stop it, and be able to pull it out and keep fighting. Kote, you would not want to end up with your sword all the way on the ground, you stop a couple inches beyond the wrist. With tsuki, you thrust the blade in and pull it out before the body of your opponent can clamp down on the blade.

Gruesome talk, this, but there you go.

[groms]

Charlie; Yes, I see what you mean.
I guess one would see the do cut (hiki-, gyaku-) as a big, "through" cut then, and big wasa men and kote cuts as small cuts.
In that regard, I´m not shure about the small wasa men and kote...are they also based upon traditional sword-techniques with the intention to cut, or are they more specialized for a shinai to smack a target faster? hmmm, lots to learn.....

[Charlie]

Sure is. We can look to kata for clues - there is a fast, small kote in Number 6, and I'd be willing to bet that old skool sword schools utilized the quick men, too. But also, looking to iaido, we see there were also big cuts that cleaved the entire body - which we can't realistically practice in kendo, I mean, what are we gonna do, whomp each other on the shoulder and say, "Well, if that had been a sword I'd have sunk that to your navel..."

[neko kenshi]

I'd call it cut if they swung shinai's like they swung swords, but the movement and tenouchi is very different. A kendo swing is executing a strike IMVHO.

[xvikingx]

As stated earlier, "utsu" is the verb used in Japan for executing a strike (yes, I use the word strike). If you look it up in Jap/Eng dictionary it is going to say "strike", but it seems to me from the comments here (on KWF in general not just this thread) that when people hear the word "strike" they think of bluntly hitting or beating. That would be "naguru", which is to strike (i.e. punch, beat, slap), whereas "utsu" is more of an attack than simply hitting. The word for cut, "kiru", isn't simply to slice or cut, but also implies severing and killing. With "kiru" you are finishing the fight, once you've cut thats the end. If you were to say "men wo kitte" it would be like saying "Split his face open".
At my dojo, when sensei is explain/ describing something about kendo the verb he uses is always "utsu", but when explaining kata he uses (not exclusivly) "kiru".

[Charlie]

Very interesting! thanks, Leiv.

[Blamps]

I tend call it a cut not because I think that I am cutting through something (although gakyu do is the closest thing to the motion of cutting) but because that's how I have always heard it referred to. I don't know if this is me being British, but I think calling it a strike sounds American to me (probably because of baseball? :smiley: ). I think its one of those words that sound odd to use when you first start kendo (unless you were inspired by samurai movie/anime to start ) but you get used to it just like when you say to motodachi that "I would like to do men" in free waza practice :laugh:. I am not one for going into the whole philosphical/historical basis of kendo but this is how I explain why I use "cut."

[dohrt]

I often use the word "strike", but when I use it, I am thinking in terms of the object that was struck, not of the motion used to "strike" it, i.e. men strike, meaning the men was struck. But if I think of the shinai making a motion, I think of it as a cutting motion rather than a striking motion.

If I strike something as an action, I think of it like a bludgeoning type thing. In other words, just like "hit". But if I cut something as an action, I am thinking of something that employs the use of an edge.

Of course, with an edge, there are two different major subsets in my mind - chops and slices. A paper cut is actually a form of a slice. To my way of thinking, a baseball hitting a ball is a chop. When a boxer gets a "cut" over their eyebrow, I think of that being the result of a "chop" rather than a "slice". A chop uses perpendicular force with an "edge-like" surface against an object to make a cut. A slice uses a very sharp surface in a sliding motion to make a cut. Chop = strength and weight of cutting surface, whereas slice = sliding motion of cutting surface along object. Actually, there is arguably a third subset in the form of "slash", but I'm going to leave off of this for now, since I think slashing is a hybrid of chopping and slashing.

In iaido, at least in my n00b understanding, most incapacitating cuts are circular (at least in the JSA world). Rarely is anything ever perfectly perpendicular to the plane it is cutting. Rather, everything moves along both the perpendicular and parallel planes in varying degrees to make something roughly circular. This is very practical in that it creates a very effective slicing motion - lateral movement along with some vertical movement. With a shinken, in my very few and very ignorant experiences, it seems that a slice is far more effective than a chop, both in terms of getting through whatever is being cut, but also in terms of recovery and readiness for another strike (i.e. not having your kensen stuck in the ground).

And so it is with this idea that I swing a shinai. When I strike, I try to use tenouchi. I've been shown very rudimentary drills where you "cut" with a shinai by striking someone else's shinai in such a way that you push forward, and go down-up with an almost springlike motion without pulling the kensen up high over the target (but the up-down has to happen over the length of the forward motion, almost like playing a violin, eh?). Being told to "do this 100 times really fast", you quickly learn that if you make a tiny circle out of the kensen as this motion goes through each iteration (to complete the return from "forward/down"), this can be accomplished with far more speed than with a "chopping" (purely up/down without any forward/backward) motion, since no energy is expended to halt/restart the movement of the kensen (and a purely "bounce/restart" motion ends up being too slow), only to accelerate it in it's path (circle). Or maybe I just felt that way, hehehe.

This is also how I feel when we do kiri-kaeshi after sensei says, "kiri-kaeshi, receive with men" (i.e. don't block the sayu-men with shinai, but let them hit your men). It's a way to practice kime (and accuracy for that matter), but also a way to work on tenouchi, and to make sure your cuts are really cuts - there should be forward motion to the monouchi as it connects with the men, such that your arms are still extending through the "strike" (slice!!) instead of stopping dead with it (which would be a chop).

Now, granted, our school tends to emphasize the importance of iaido and kendo together, so this may explain why we are frequently given exercises that emphasize "cutting" (slicing, not chopping), but I know no other way (and I love iaido as much as kendo).

In fact, the very first time, as a beginner in sweat pants, I remember learning that a proper kote should not push the opponent's kote straight down, but forward and down, due to the forward cutting (slicing) motion of the shinai.

Still, the fact remains that even after the best men I've ever personally witnessed (when using a shinai), the men was not actually cut. And as I said, perhaps this is why I always refer to "men strike", "men hit", etc. But the action of doing it is a cut !

Off the subject just a bit, I've heard it said that in kendo, we "cut" with a forward motion, but in iaido we "cut" with a backward motion (mainly for kirioroshi). Is this something particular to the sensei I've been around, or is this a widely held idea?

P.S. I feel like a Do "strike" is about the only case where it isn't a slice but a chop at the beginning, and only is it converted into a "slice" by "pulling" through as you pass by.

[xvikingx]

Very interesting! thanks, Leiv.

No probs dude. That is actually only half of what I wrote; I somehow lost half of it when I was cutting and pasting from my email. (*My email is my front at work for actual work being done)

[Charlie]

Good input, Marcos, lot to think about.

[Wai]

Suppose a new mock katana is designed such that one could spar with realistic cutting and slicing motion, but without the injuries of a real sword, will it be good or bad for kendo ?

I know some people like the bruises from kendo. So suppose this new mock katana can give you the equivalent trophy injuries, but to use it correctly, all of your movements are now definitely cuts instead of strikes, do you think that it is better or worse ?


I feel that when I think of the shinai as a stick, my tenouchi becomes wrong. A shoumen feels quite odd if I think of the shinai as a stick. Perhaps subconsciously, I think if I were holding a stick, I won't be hitting things at such weird angled and tangential way. I think this is what dohrt said about slicing instead of chopping.

[Charlie]

I think kendo would be too far along for such a mock katana to impact any change, and a new pasttime would be invented to accomodate this change. The iai folks would have a field day! :D

[DCPan]

Suppose a new mock katana is designed such that one could spar with realistic cutting and slicing motion, but without the injuries of a real sword, will it be good or bad for kendo ?

Until you can cut "through" the opponent, you are still just striking.

[jmarsten]

When I started kendo there was always all this talk by the sensei about cutting. One day we did test cutting and to my amazement most of the sensei couldn't actually cut. For most it was the first time they had actually tried to use an actual katana. After that I started practicing test cutting to make sure I was not talking about something in which I had no actual experience.

In my opinon for kendo, is there riai, seme and power. Discussing cutting is to me rather pointless since we use shinai and they often fail to cut unless its a newspaper sheet or the shinai has a bad stave.

If I was using a actual sword, I feel reasonably confident I can do enough damage to stop my opponent should I be able to make contact. Which often to me begs the question and particularly with hiki waza that are not called, "would you like me to hit you the same way with a katana and tell me it's not a point" . Just a little peeve of mine.

[Wai]

When you use the shinai, is the tenouchi based on using the shinai as a katana, or as a stick ?

The top of the skull is pretty hard. How easy is it for a katana to go in, if you do a chop instead of a cut ?

[Charlie]

When you use the shinai, is the tenouchi based on using the shinai as a katana, or as a stick ?

Hmm. A katana, isn't it?

[Wai]

After reminding myself of the tire test that I posted in the other thread, I think that kendo attacks (bar tsuki) are taught as cuts, practiced as cuts and executed as cuts. When people say that it is a strike, but with tenouchi, it really means that it is a cut.

I have just realized that I have been doing my sayuu-men as strikes (as in chopping with the monouchi instead of cutting with it).

The difference between a cut and a chop is this:

When you chop (or strike), the monouchi contacts the taget at one point.

When you cut, the contact between the monouchi and the taget slides for a short distance toward the nakayui. (It slides toward the kensen for do-uchi).

So, an electronic device that only detects a single contact cannot detect yuko datotsu. Detecting a cut is one of the many requirements that a simple electronic scoring device would fail.

[hl1978]

When I do iaido or kendo on kata I say cut. When I do keiko I say strike.

Why? Well I rarely do the push/pull slice in kendo, with the exception of do, but in iaido and kata I always do it.

I need to integrate the two together, but I wonder if doing so will make my kendo slightly slower and make combinations more difficult.

[Kaoru]

Okay, maybe I'm thinking about this too much. For some time now I have been making a conscious effort to refer to the waza we do in kendo as "cuts" and not "strikes." Cuts you do with a sharp implement. Strikes you do with a blunt one. My use of language in this way is an attempt to remind myself that, no matter where kendo takes me, it is at heart one way to study sword fighting. What do you think?

Hi Charlie-san,

I agree with you. I feel the same way about it, and say "cut" though my sensei told me to say "strike" instead. I don't like that too much, but if he says so, then I'll do it. I guess I'm going to have to ask him again why he said that because I forgot. :(

Kaoru

[Halcyon]

When you use the shinai, is the tenouchi based on using the shinai as a katana, or as a stick ?

The top of the skull is pretty hard. How easy is it for a katana to go in, if you do a chop instead of a cut ?
You're not actually trying to cut through the skull, you're cutting the face. That's why the target it called "men" and not "atama."

[Wai]

I remember a different explanation:

The men-uchi is suppose to cut into the skull, the purpose is to severe the front part of the brain.

[Halcyon]

I remember a different explanation:

The men-uchi is suppose to cut into the skull, the purpose is to severe the front part of the brain.
Front part of the brain, the face -- six of one, half a dozen of the other. The point is you don't want to get your katana stuck in something. That's the worst thing that can happen in the middle of a sword fight (other than breaking your sword). That's why most techniques utilize only the monouchi and employ a pull-cut.

[SangWoooKim]

I posted this in one of the other threads but what is interesting is that I've tried tamesigiri using kendo technique. Small men uchi hacks the tatami and pushes it forward knocking it over, big waza will hack deeper but because of the lunge will still push it over. The reason is there is no pull motion just push. Kote can be done as well, but it just hacks and at most superficial. The do cut in kendo can cut pretty well because it's like a kesa giri as long as there is proper hasuji which I'm not sure is focused on as much in kendo. Maybe I can try again and film it next time since our dojo cuts pretty often.

[Charlie]

Please do so, Mr. Kim! I think it suggests that a men cut to an unarmored foe is meant to cut, sever the brain, possible stun the person like cattle being prepped for slaughter, at any rate take him out of the fight. Kote you might not sever the entire wrist but at any rate even a partial sever will end the fight. And a doh cut is a disembowlment. I think, as I said, both these shallow percussive cuts and deeper slicing cuts were part of a swordsman's arsenal in those days, but these days the one is usually in the realm of kendo, the other in the realm of iaido, and the twain rarely meet for obvious reasons.

[SangWoooKim]

However, doing small men with shinken is very difficult. It becomes more like tsuki. Big men with shinken is much easier. But it helps to have a sword whose balance is towards the handle unlike mine which is tip heavy

[Wai]

I have heard about different terms translated to 'small cuts'.

Does sashi-men feel like an icebreaker (the ship) cleaving the ice ?

[Dr. Hellsing]

its a bit off topic but just a question, when you try to get men, do you think cut or strike? if you think cut, do your arms keep the shinai pressed down on the men? if you think strike, do you hit and run?

[Charlie]

I have duplicated kendo-like waza with an iaito but never with a shinken. And I would swear I saw... remember that documentary that had Joe Svinth and Meik Skoss and some folks in it? I don't remember the name. But Mr. Skoss performed a kata in it, I think, where he was walking down a path, turned, drew, and performed what to me looked very much like sashi men. I'm sorry I don't have more info, I don't even know what arts Skoss-san studies.


Does sashi-men feel like an icebreaker (the ship) cleaving the ice ?

Don't know! You mean how would it feel on flesh and bone?


when you try to get men, do you think cut or strike? if you think cut, do your arms keep the shinai pressed down on the men? if you think strike, do you hit and run?

Not sure if that's the best way to differentiate between cutting and striking but I for sure keep the shinai pressed down. I mean, it bounces a bit, doesn't it? But the action is up over the men and down with a snap and tai atari to follow.

[Dr. Hellsing]

yeah, i couldn't really describe a strike, it can be anything, but you guys get the point.

[Jon Palombi]

Okay, maybe I'm thinking about this too much. For some time now I have been making a conscious effort to refer to the waza we do in kendo as "cuts" and not "strikes." Cuts you do with a sharp implement. Strikes you do with a blunt one. My use of language in this way is an attempt to remind myself that, no matter where kendo takes me, it is at heart one way to study sword fighting. What do you think?
I agree. Cutting is conclussive, striking is...sportive????? " I tried to score a point " VS. "He tried to decapitate me, so I sliced him two halves."
But, such is the way of the times...

[Jon Palombi]

After some contemplation , (I visualized cutting a tatami mat.), a cut is not the same in mechanics as a strike. In a Kendo match, because of the defensive element, one does not "carry through" with a strike. One scores a point in a rather snappy fashion. You can't cut a mat with this type of movement. In Forms practice, I believe, one can follow through with the cut. In Iaido it is absolutely neccessary to cut in a realistic manner. If the blade doesn't sing, there is something lacking...
I aplaud the idea of cutting instead of striking, in a match, this is the essence of the Way. Is there a rennaissance happening???? Cool.

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jonny "The Most Rotten"

[xvikingx]

It's not exactly hard to make your blade "sing". I'm able to do so with what you call kendo-snappy-cuts, so it's singing but I'd still say there is something lacking.
No renaissance happening my friend. This so-called renaissance would move us backward not forward.

[Jon Palombi]

No renaissance happening my friend. This so-called renaissance would move us backward not forward.

Point well taken. However, I do feel that we can't loose sight of the fact that the shinai and bokken are still swords (meant for cutting the opponet) and all too often we handle 'em slightly different. You know, without the consequence of receiving a nasty or fatal cut, in return. Obviously, we need to practice bouting, cutting targets and doing solo forms, to be complete in the Art. Yes, a so-called rennaissance could be a labrinth of traditional fixations, but we seem to be in the middle of a disturbing trend towards modernization. We aren't Musahi or Yagyu Munenori. We will not likely engage in mortal combat, yet it doesn't hurt us to practice with the same feeling of risk/urgency. Squaring off with live blades would change our approach and reactions greatly. Which is the beauty of bouting with bamboo swords, clad in protective armor. You can really mix-it-up in a sport scenario. This is the 21st. century so I guess you're right about not moving backwards. Still...it's better than that Olympics nonsense. Maybe not...maybe yes?

Later, Jon

[xvikingx]

yet it doesn't hurt us to practice with the same feeling of risk/urgency.

Agreed.

..............

[Kenshi]

...yet it doesn't hurt us to practice with the same feeling of risk/urgency

Agreed but...


We will not likely engage in mortal combat...

... this says it all. No matter how serious you take your kendo, you will never ever have the "same feeling of risk/urgency" .... thus kendo has evolved in the manner it has.

Charlie: Meik Skoss studies various koryu, his kenjutsu training is from YSR.

[JSchmidt]

In a Kendo match, because of the defensive element, one does not "carry through" with a strike.

Yes, you do..and what is this 'defensive element'.

[Fudo-Shin]

After some contemplation , (I visualized cutting a tatami mat.), a cut is not the same in mechanics as a strike. In a Kendo match, because of the defensive element, one does not "carry through" with a strike. One scores a point in a rather snappy fashion. You can't cut a mat with this type of movement. In Forms practice, I believe, one can follow through with the cut. In Iaido it is absolutely neccessary to cut in a realistic manner.But a Tatami mat won't move as well. That's why the mechanics are different. I think, if it were a shinken shoubu situation, I would say almost any, if not all of the ippon with yuko-datotsu I have seen awarded during Kendo shiai would still be enough to effectively end the fight. Even the effect of a "chop" to the skull from a sashi men half way down the blade would either knock you unconscious instantly, or you would be bleeding so badly you probably couldn't see, then it's only a matter of time anyway. Luckily, we will never have to know of this anyway, and it's not why we practice Kendo.

[xvikingx]

But a Tatami mat won't move as well. That's why the mechanics are different. I think, if it were a shinken shoubu situation, I would say almost any, if not all of the ippon with yuko-datotsu I have seen awarded during Kendo shiai would still be enough to effectively end the fight. Even the effect of a "chop" to the skull from a sashi men half way down the blade would either knock you unconscious instantly, or you would be bleeding so badly you probably couldn't see, then it's only a matter of time anyway. Luckily, we will never have to know of this anyway, and it's not why we practice Kendo.

Well said.

[Jon Palombi]

Yes, you do..and what is this 'defensive element'.
Sure you do, yet all too often the point is scored more as a strike, than a complete cut. I believe you, REALLY I DO, that you experience the essence of the cut performing waza (just like Charlie elluded to at the beginning of this thread). Which is why I started spouting-off about a rennaissance in 21st. century modern kendo. Regardless of the fact that we do want to move forward, not backwards.
As far as "the defensive element" concerned, the degree of consequence dictates the level of defensiveness. In other words, the loss of a match is easier to swallow than the loss of a limb. Bruised ego, yeah, but you can still drive home afterwards for dinner and a few cups of sake. With shinai, clad in protective armor, the consequence is radically less final than that with bokken or katana. It is not as neccessary to follow-through with the cut, to score a point in a match. The consequence is non-fatal. Which is one of the beauties of kendo. (It's the same thing with European fencing.) While offering protection from serious injury, it opens the way for explossive offensive attacks. Case-in-point; the final moments of the 52nd All Japan Kendo Championships, Harada Satoru VS. Suzuki Tsuyoshi. This match was outstanding! In the last handful of seconds...Bam, bam, bam, and VICTORY! Such a truely fantastic example of speed and body/eye co-ordination! As mind-bending as it was, it isn't the kind of cutting our Teacher's ancestors employed on the fields of battle and frankly, it doesn't have to be. During the classical era of the Samurai, the completion of a cut could decide who would live and who would die. I often wonder how Musashi would fare in a modern kendo match, rules and all. Could he translate his brilliant abilities to a sporting event? From a duel to the death to a championship match? Or would he simpely find a way to kill them all? Food for thought... We live in the 21st. century, yet there remains a wonderful sense of rememberance...

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

[ZealUK]

In kendo the front foot lands as the shinai makes impact, whereas most koryu kenjutsu plant the back foot as the cut makes impact, using the hips to generate power. There is a notable difference in my eyes.

I can't see the point of assuming what would work in a real situation, as I guess none of us could even remotely understand the reality of facing an armed opponent who is intent on taking our life.

[Charlie]

Thanks, George. Maybe I can google up the clip. (YSR = Yagyu Shingan ryu?)


In kendo the front foot lands as the shinai makes impact, whereas most koryu kenjutsu plant the back foot as the cut makes impact, using the hips to generate power. There is a notable difference in my eyes.

Excellent point!


I can't see the point of assuming what would work in a real situation, as I guess none of us could even remotely understand the reality of facing an armed opponent who is intent on taking our life.

The point is to put more thought into your kendo, to delve deeper, to put yourself in touch with its roots and purpose, and to make conscious decisions about your kendo reflecting your philsophical and artistic interpretations of what you find there.

[ZealUK]

The point is to put more thought into your kendo, to delve deeper, to put yourself in touch with its roots and purpose, and to make conscious decisions about your kendo reflecting your philsophical and artistic interpretations of what you find there.

Very well put.

I believe Meik Skoss studies Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3HNEFiKrHI

Yagyu Shingan Ryu is the ryuha that practice in oyoroi among other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsqzeCtlRY&mode=related&search=

[Charlie]

Thanks, guys. (Thanks for your note, Gibbs.)

[Charlie]

Very well put.

I believe Meik Skoss studies Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3HNEFiKrHI


Lots of interesting stuff in that vid, including fumikomi-type action and tai atari-type action. Even something that resembles kiri-kaeshi. Best not to make too much of that, though, I think.

[Erik Tracy]

Just a couple of additional comments for consideration...

First - I don't practice Kendo - would love to someday, I think it would be a valuable way to further my understanding of 'swordsmanship'.

For now, I just do iai. Our dojo happens to espouse the idea that tameshigiri is also a valuable/integral part of furthering a student's understanding of swordsmanship.

And we have also taken rank beginners and shown them how to cut. It *can* be easy - to take up a position in front of a fixed tatami target, hold your sword up, align your cut, take a breath, focus on your hasuji, and let the sword fall thru the target and make a beautifully clean cut.

But that is just the start of what tameshigiri (aka suemonogiri to some) can bring as a way of furthering your swordsmanship.

As a real life analogy - I once worked for a company that had a corporate plane. I got to ride up in the co-pilots seat during one trip. It was a quick hop, not many people on board, and the pilot let me take the stick for a moment! Does that mean I know how to fly? Heck no.

"Robot" tameshigiri is just the start - getting the basics down first.

You say that there is nothing to it? Take it to the next level - use tameshigiri to apply all of your iai waza. Can you move as you cut? Can you make all of the opening cuts from the draw on a full tatami omote target? Can you make all of your cuts rapidly, in succession, with clean hasuji?

Try it.

If you can - then fantastic! If you can't (I'm still working on it), then tameshigiri can be a useful component/feedback to your iai - whose goal is to CUT your opponent. The tatami does not lie: maybe your cut will not go thru, maybe your hasuji is off and the sword will get caught up in the target (so how do you expect to make your second or third cut??), maybe - heaven forbid - you bend your sword!

Lots of disciplines use tools to enhance and validate their training. My father use to be a fighter pilot waaay back. When they would train dog fighting it was the pilot who argued and talked the best as to who won. Nowdays they have on-board cameras and instrumentation and can reply the missions - to conclusively show who 'lived' and who 'died' during the training.

Don't talk about cutting - go do it - see for yourself.

One Japanese kendo sensei I used to talk to with in between iai and kendo classes talked about the 'young bucks' - the nidan and sandan kendo students who were so sure of themselves about tameshigiri - he said go do it - and would chuckle when they found out they could not cut.

I'm not trying to poke anyone in the eye - but you can't rationalize about being able to cut or not just from talking about it. Go try it. If you can - and do it *as you would apply your iai and/or kendo* (not "robot" cutting - because you can teach someone off the street to do that) - then great!

If you can't - then there are things to work on, yes?

To be fair - the flip side is that many view tameshigiri as the penultimate in applying 'swordsmanship' and can do all the fancy cuts. Well, to me, that is taking tameshigiri out of its context and making it a demonstration art. When it is isolated out like that - not good.

When kept in its context of overall swordmanship, tameshigiri is a very useful practice to improve your technique.

Erik

[Charlie]

Nice to see you, Erik. Haven't crossed paths with you much, used to see you at Sworforum quite a bit. Thanks for your input on this. I agree. Especially with "then there are things to work on!"