Covering Target Areas

[Old Warrior]

I am not one to question the wisdom of my teacher. It has been obvious for some time that when I spar with Sabumnim he frequently takes one hand off the shinai and drops it to his side, thus covering any possible do (huri) cut. I am trying to decide if he does this to force me to cut men (muhri) or he just wants to prevent me from scoring a point. A few times I have clobbered his elbow because the target was initially open and he dropped his hand to prevent my contact. On those occasions, I have no regret that I hit him. Sometimes he even drops his right hand so kote (son mok) can't be hit.

This past Saturday, one of Sabumnim's assistants, a 3rd dan, did the same thing (why should I be surprised) and I whacked her hard. I felt terrible, but as I think about it - how can it be legal to cover a target area. I can state with certainty that it's a yellow card offense in European fencing.

[bullet08]

so far, i haven't seen my instructors or sempai avoiding target in such manner. but i have seen few kohai doing that. i usually just wack 'em and tell them not to do that any more. one thing i noticed with faster sempai is they will block the cut with their shinai. if i'm fast on that day, i can change my target to open ones. if i'm slow, i wack at their shinai.

pete

[Charlie]

It's tricky (to rock around to rock around that's right on time it's tricky).

No, seriously, I think that is just part of a kenshi's bag o' tricks. I think you've got the right attitude in ignoring it or trying to get around it. It's just part of the bob and weave for some kenshi and if bobbing and weaving gets you clobbered by accident in the elbow or the like, too bad. I personally would never do it, not that way, but I certainly have moved kote out of the way or covered it by a wide chudan or the like. Still, you're right, it's not something one should do with a sword, it's a concession to sport.

This beast is my recital...

[emitbrownne]

If there was an opening, then cut.

If your opponent decides to block with an arm then they get hit.

If your opponent decides to block with a shinai then its a parry.

If they move out of the way then its nuki...

[Old Warrior]

If there was an opening, then cut.

If your opponent decides to block with an arm then they get hit.

If your opponent decides to block with a shinai then its a parry.

If they move out of the way then its nuki...

It's not so simple. I don't want to hit a 7th dan who can take apart my kumdo at will. I want to learn whatever it is, that he's trying to teach. If it's illegal to cover a target area, he isn't doing it through ignorance. I don't want to be one of those people who - doesn't get it.

[emitbrownne]

I don't want to be one of those people who - doesn't get it.
Can you not ask him.. or the 3rd Dan who also blocked?

[emitbrownne]

Sorry my previous post was quite glib and I realised it falls under the "why dont you just ask your sensei" line.

My sensei covers his Do on occasions when he turns.. he says its a lazy/bad habit, and has asked me to attack him with double the spirit should he do it (quite hard when Im going flat out anyway).

I'm not inferring its the same, but maybe there is another reason hes doing it other than just to teach you???

[Charlie]

Perhaps he is trying to force you into a crisis and see how you resolve it. To force you to a place where your mind stops and goes WTF?! to see how you dissolve the mental blockade.

[Kuma]

It's tricky (to rock around to rock around that's right on time it's tricky).

How is it, D?

[Old Warrior]

Can you not ask him.. or the 3rd Dan who also blocked?

Sure, he is always accessable and friendly. But, what do I say, "Isn't it illegal to cover the target area?". Or, perhaps "Cover the target again and I'll whack your elbow". I got no answer when I asked the 3rd dan. In her case, I know she just didn't want me to kick her butt like I usually do.

Believe me, I've tried to get an answer without being too pushy or making it seem that I have greater knowledge. I have been doing nito since I started Kumdo, because that's what Sabumnim decided was best for me. I have tried many times to ask why he made this choice and I have never gotten an answer. I once enlisted a Korean speaker (4th dan) to inquire on my behalf and he came back and said, "I'm not sure what he explained, but trust me he gave it great thought and it is best for you".

I am chalking this up to another one of those mysteries for which I don't need to know the answer.

[Shazzanzzz]

Well, if you think tournament wise, that's a legal move to cover those target areas. And if they can do that it means they can see you coming also.

I was always told that it is always your fault if you hurt someone. If the target is not open, don't hit it. If the doh is covered, it means you didn't do what is necessary to make it be open. Make the opening before you hit, not hit to make openings.

[ReKru]

"Isn't it illegal to cover the target area?". Or, perhaps "Cover the target again and I'll whack your elbow".

Both of them don't sound right.

Maybe explain your dilemma (like you did here) and ask how to avoid it?

As short and direct as you can? Like "I saw your do open, I moved to hit it, you put your arm there, I don't know what to do (pull trough, switch for men? don't go for do at all? .. maybe he wants you to really go for men rather than 'easy open targets' .. something like that) , please tell me ..."

[bullet08]

take him out for a drink. and do what koreans like to call 'ya-ja' game. that's sort of like chinese parliment.. everything goes thing. ask him flat out. why do you block the do with your arm? when my previous sensei was here, it was much easier for me to ask him ton of questions. he was younger than me and he liked to talk about kendo. with new sensei who is much older than me.. it's rather hard. and he also doesn't speak english. tho.. he does his best to explain things to me in japanese.. i just nod and go 'hai.. hai..' :)

pete

[Halcyon]

I want to learn whatever it is, that he's trying to teach. If it's illegal to cover a target area, he isn't doing it through ignorance. I don't want to be one of those people who - doesn't get it.
It's not illegal to cover a target area, but you do so at your own risk. If you cover your do with your arm and your opponent wacks your elbow, well, ouch. But I'm afraid it's primarily the fault of the person covering his/her do. As for whether your sabumnim is trying to teach you something ... if he won't tell you verbally, then you may just have to rely on repeated trial and error to find out. That's how some instructors teach. In fact, it's a tried and true method -- frustrate the student until you force a breakthrough.

[Charlie]

How is it, D?

You know how we do!

[cesarekim]

Nito was something I always associated with very strong people. If you have the ability to stay calm in a crisis and are able to use both hands, it can be pretty deadly. One teacher once told me it should be used by people who "were able and willing to take the fight to the enemy". The reason you have to be strong to do this is not only in a physical sense. You will always get the smart-ass who says that nito is not a real style. Often, it is a case of sour grapes... In a way, I wish I could do nito but I am a bit too static to be able to carry it off.

When I bring my arm down to parry a do, I normally get hit hard. I accept this as par for the course. My sensei is usually pretty quick to say that if I can block with an elbow, I should be able to toshi and hit men. I really think of this as more of a shiai desperation move. I don't think it's illegal per se but I would expect a person who is senior to me to do something more constructive than merely blocking the stick...

Not sure I'm adding much value to the discussion but considering OW is a Lafayette parent, he's used to heckling by the Lehigh crowd :D

[Obulco]

It's not illegal to cover a target area, but you do so at your own risk. If you cover your do with your arm and your opponent wacks your elbow, well, ouch. But I'm afraid it's primarily the fault of the person covering his/her do. As for whether your sabumnim is trying to teach you something ... if he won't tell you verbally, then you may just have to rely on repeated trial and error to find out. That's how some instructors teach. In fact, it's a tried and true method -- frustrate the student until you force a breakthrough.

One of my teachers use to use this method. He would read my intentions, cover his do, force me to change target out of confusion and then give me a gyaku-do to remember not to get confused so easily. However, in another occasion, I saw the do open, I attacked, he brought the arm down and I smashed his elbow. I was beginning to apologize and he cut me saying “Not your fault. When I get tired, some times I do very crappy Kendo.” It was actually one of these moments that I realized how hard must be to be a sensei at certain age and be in keiko after keiko (with little rest) while everybody is watching waiting in line.

[kuzu70]

I was always told that it is always your fault if you hurt someone. If the target is not open, don't hit it. If the doh is covered, it means you didn't do what is necessary to make it be open. Make the opening before you hit, not hit to make openings.

I would tend to agree with Shazznazzz's assessment.

[ahmed61086]

I do the same thing as you Sabaunim, OW. I can't tell you why he does it, but Ill tell you why I do it(occasionaly).

Because, sometime you see the opponent coming, but dont have a proper defence/counter/offensive reaction. So you take your kote out of play, you take your men out of play, and your do out of play. You leave your tsuki open, an your gyaku do, but many people have to "think" to attack these, so it leaves them open. So I turn this defense into an offence, and attack Katate men, if I see they were confused when I did it.

It is kinda "sporty". But, its not illegal. And I have used it against my sabaunim, and he didn't say anything against it.

Also, you see Jodan players using this "defense" all the time, and it works pretty well for them. Why not for a chudan player? Also, I have seen this tactic used by chudan players in big tournaments, so its not that rare.

[Old Warrior]

... Because, sometime you see the opponent coming, but dont have a proper defence/counter/offensive reaction. So you take your kote out of play, you take your men out of play, and your do out of play. You leave your tsuki open, an your gyaku do, but many people have to "think" to attack these, so it leaves them open. So I turn this defense into an offence, and attack Katate men, if I see they were confused when I did it.

It is kinda "sporty". But, its not illegal. And I have used it against my sabaunim, and he didn't say anything against it.

I need for you to explain this to me. If the purpose of doing Kumdo is to improve one's character by adherence to and the study of the principles of the sword - what kind of individual thinks that you should block a sword with your bare hand [arm]?

This won't be the first time that I have been accused of "thinking too much" so don't worry about my feelings. If Kumdo was just about "winning" I would be practicing "accidently" stepping on your foot, using my 250 lbs. to put you on your tail and a whole host of improper moves. What sword principle is served by rinky dinky moves that deny my training partner the satisfaction of hitting an open target area?

[ahmed61086]

I need for you to explain this to me. If the purpose of doing Kumdo is to improve one's character by adherence to and the study of the principles of the sword - what kind of individual thinks that you should block a sword with your bare hand [arm]?

This won't be the first time that I have been accused of "thinking too much" so don't worry about my feelings. If Kumdo was just about "winning" I would be practicing "accidently" stepping on your foot, using my 250 lbs. to put you on your tail and a whole host of improper moves. What sword principle is served by rinky dinky moves that deny my training partner the satisfaction of hitting an open target area?


I would answer by saying, that if his arm is there, it wasn't open.

People sometimes say, "i would have got him, it was a perfect timed men, if he didn't bob his head". Well, I do think bobbing your head too much is crappy kumdo, but, if your opponent had time to block, or to bob his head, then your attack was not ippon in the first place. Your attack should take your opponents so off-guard, that he/she doesnt have time to block/dodge/bob/parry/move.

I tried this thing with my a sparring partner that is about my level. Whenever he went to attack, I would move my body about 1 inched to the left or right. Or my head one inch to the left or right. What was the conclusion? He missed everytime, just because I would move an inch to either side every time he attacked. He might have thought, that his attack should have been successful, but the reality was, I saw him coming, and was experimenting with something. If his attack was truly succesful, I would not have seen him coming, and he would have cut me.

Whether or not we bock using are arms instead of our shinia, isn't going to hinder our development too much, unless we over do it, and dont do anything else.

I have spoke to Kenjutsu practictioners, and according to them, you CANNOT block with a real sword, ever. Not because the sword will break, but because it will be impossible to block and keep the sword in your hands and keep yourself alive. So if we go by this logic, then we shouldn't block with our shinias either. But we are not doing Kenjutsu, we are doing Kendo.

There was an article posted up here a few months ago about a sesei who said something like this,

"ji geiko is for the sake of Shiai". This is a pretty strong statement.

This means, that you should practice in Jigeiko, and practice techniques you would do in shiai. In shia, I dont want you scoring a point on me, so I might drop my arm over my doh. So this makes it a legitimate technique also in Jigeiko. If my opponent wants ippon, he should catch me off-guard, or act accordingly when I pull my hand off the Shinia and cover my doh. There are still 2 targets open as I mentions b4. It is allmost impossible to cover every single target. The only way to do that is to kee a very strong Chudan, lol.

I still agree with the essence of you post. I dont think we should use cheap tactics and improper kumdo/kendo. I just dont think this move is improper, unless you over use it. And if you over use it, your opponent should be able to act according and get ippon on the open targets. If it is against the rules, it is improper. Stepping on peoples feet on purpose would definitly get you hansoku, if the shimpan knew you were doing it on purpose. Excessive pushing would also get you hansoku.

I think the only way you would get hansoku with this technique is is the Shimpan saw you werent even trying, and were using it excessivly without proper spirit.

Thoughts?

[DCPan]

It's not illegal to cover a target area, but you do so at your own risk. If you cover your do with your arm and your opponent wacks your elbow, well, ouch.

I have been told that this is one of the reasons why you need to let the court judges know if you are wearing pads other than your standard bogu at tournaments....

[Old Warrior]

I would answer by saying, that if his arm is there, it wasn't open.

If I was holding a sword, it might as well not be there. A sword would cut through it as if it wasn't there. As far as I'm concerned, if an arm was there it WAS open.


People sometimes say, "i would have got him, it was a perfect timed men, if he didn't bob his head".

Avoiding an attack seems to me to be in keeping with the principles of the katana.


Whether or not we bock using are arms instead of our shinia, isn't going to hinder our development too much, unless we over do it, and dont do anything else.

Forgive me, but I don't accept this at all. I fail to see how arm blocking fits into kendo - good or bad.


I have spoke to Kenjutsu practictioners, and according to them, you CANNOT block with a real sword, ever. Not because the sword will break, but because it will be impossible to block and keep the sword in your hands and keep yourself alive.

I'm not sure I accept this, either. I have done a lot of fencing with metal blades (epee) and a "parry" is a "block" no matter how you look at it. I could refer you to the bon we learn and "blocks" are there.


There was an article posted up here a few months ago about a sesei who said something like this,

"ji geiko is for the sake of Shiai". This is a pretty strong statement.

This means, that you should practice in Jigeiko, and practice techniques you would do in shiai.

I don't think using arm blocks gains any respect for your kendo or improves it.


If it is against the rules, it is improper.

This can't be interpreted to mean "if it's not against the rules it's good kendo".
Don't get me wrong, the purpose of competing is to win. But holding a jukdo and dancing like Muhhamed Ali may make you unhittable, but is it kendo? And if it's not kendo, what's the point of showing up?

[JByrd]

OW, if it's any comfort, I often find it difficult to understand the reasoning used by people so many skill levels above me. For example, I am waiting too much, and hitting too much. At the same time. When I question my infinitely patient senseis to death, the answers I get sometimes puzzle me more. Sometimes I think I am being given a Kendo koan, something to just break me out of a dead end street.

The only thing I can think is that he may be telling you that you are giving away your intended target somehow, which allows him to take it out of play before you can strike. The fact that he can read your pressure may not be a bad thing. Maybe he is trying to see if you are mentally flexible enough to change your attack. Sometimes we pressure one target enough to get a defensive reaction that opens another target...

Good luck figuring out your riddle.

[ahmed61086]

If I was holding a sword, it might as well not be there. A sword would cut through it as if it wasn't there. As far as I'm concerned, if an arm was there it WAS open.Yup, that means you can go for doh, when someone is holding a strong chudan, but your still going to hit their arm. In kendo, if a body part is in the way its not open. If it were realy sword fighting, you could not get away with "Just" holding chudan, because someone can just chop your arms off. In kendo, you can't do that. In kendo, holding chudan is covering your Doh from getting hit, because your arms are in the way, in real sword fighting this doesnt apply.




Avoiding an attack seems to me to be in keeping with the principles of the katana.Yes, but headbobbing doesn't neccasarily agree with the principles of kendo.



Forgive me, but I don't accept this at all. I fail to see how arm blocking fits into kendo - good or bad.Refer to first post.

We are developoing ourselves by putting ourselves in these tough situations all the time. Are situations are somewhat differnet than realy swordfighting, but it still helps us to develop in many ways. We dont need to think we are going to die to develop. If you refuse to get past an opponent that wants to block using his arms, then who is realy not progressing? You or the opponent?

You see people drop their elbows all the time to make sure that their doh deosnt' get hit. Sure with katana it wouldn't mean much, but in kendo, it means, that there not going to get ippon.




I'm not sure I accept this, either. I have done a lot of fencing with metal blades (epee) and a "parry" is a "block" no matter how you look at it. I could refer you to the bon we learn and "blocks" are there.


We parry in the katas. We never block. A block would be taking the full force of the blow to your sword, with out minimising the force by trying to redirect it somehow. In kendo, you see people block all the time, by bringing their shinia up about their head, and a guy comes in to strike their men, but just hits shinia. From what I was told by kendjutsu guys, that if you try to block witha Katana or a boken. A few things could happen, none of them is good. Your katana will never just stay in one place like you might see in the movies. Its taking realy forceful hit, which trying to cut through you. THe katana will probably just fly right out of your hands, or you wont block it succesfully or fully block it at all.



I don't think using arm blocks gains any respect for your kendo or improves it.

Maybe not, but Ive seen World champs do it, and they still get respect. I mean, its a norm, and if its not excessive.....than its not excessive. Like I said b4, for Jodan guys, this is an extremely normal defensive procedure. Here, check out his video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ir3e85yMy0



This can't be interpreted to mean "if it's not against the rules it's good kendo".
Don't get me wrong, the purpose of competing is to win. But holding a jukdo and dancing like Muhhamed Ali may make you unhittable, but is it kendo? And if it's not kendo, what's the point of showing up?You know me, I ain't about bad kendo. I dont like to be flashy. I like good straight kendo. But I think kendo is kendo, and Kenjutsu is Kenjustsu.

Another thing my Kenjutsu freind told me. He said kendo hinders him in progressing in Kenjutsu, because it is so different. He finds himself blocking by mistake, and it just doesnt work.

Some senseis say you should never block, becuase it defeats the purpose. But we still do block. I guess its up to interpretation.

[ahmed61086]

I realy dont believe it would be productive, or kendolike, for a person to keep his arms raised and surrender to the opponent and give him the point. If I raise my arms, and see my opponent going for my doh, why should I let him hit my doh. Should I surrender and say "well....he got my arms up". I dont think so, I am going to stop him from getting the point. Just becuase you made one mistake doesn't mean you should let the person hit you.

I feel the attack should be unavoidable. In kendo, we are going for the "perfect cut". Not the cut that would kill our opponent. So I believe we are going for the cut that the opponent can do nothing about.

[Obulco]

So your partner goes for do and you block it with your arm. If the partner is not playing very nice and/or does not stop on time, he hits you in the elbow and you say it is his fault because there was no real opening. If the partner is playing nice and/or is able to stop on time, you take advantage of his confusion/lack of balance and you strike him. Please, Ahmed, if I am wrong, correct me, but that is what I got from the posts.

[Kenshi]

I also do what your sensei does. In my case its just a habit. I can clearly see the attack coming and I remove the target (kote) out of the area. Its not about using my arm to block. I do this against kohai generally.. kind of teaching them a lesson. Of-course, id prefer to do suriage or kaeshi or something.. but I dont for either of the following reasons: im either lazy/tired, or I dont want to do a wasted attack (muda uchi). Its generally the second. (also, if you are thus inclined, its a good position to launch a katate men)

I wouldnt read anything more mystical into it than that.

As an aside....


Nito was something I always associated with very strong people.

1. If the above statement were true why do I not see hundreds of nito people in Japan? Its nothing to do with strength, and probably more so to do with the personality of the person involved --- they like doing something "different," like to "stand out," are musashi sycophants, or simply as a strategy to use in shiai. The majority of people who do nito fail miserably... its nothing but a scrappy mess.

Doing chudan and beating people in chudan, jodan, and nito is a true mark of strength and well-roundedness in my books.

2. If you wanted to do real swordsmanship I would question why anyone would do nito... its more removed from kenjutsu than normal kendo is. Wielding one katana - never mind two - in one hand is pretty damn hard.

[ahmed61086]

So your partner goes for do and you block it with your arm. If the partner is not playing very nice and/or does not stop on time, he hits you in the elbow and you say it is his fault because there was no real opening. If the partner is playing nice and/or is able to stop on time, you take advantage of his confusion/lack of balance and you strike him. Please, Ahmed, if I am wrong, correct me, but that is what I got from the posts.

I dont understand how you got that from my posts. If someone goes for an opening, and I put my arm in the way, its my fault if I get hit. If there was no opening to begin with, and then they strike doh, then it would be their fault.


If I am in shiai, I will put my arm down to stop my opponent from scoring. If he hits my arm, its obviously my fault. If he stops for the sake of my arm, Ill hit his men if its open. Im trying to win, Im not trying to win a competition in kindness.

[ahmed61086]

Im not trying to win a competition in kindness.


Obviously being kind is a good thing, but you know what I mean. We are in a duel. :D

[Kuma]

So I can't get ippon by being really, really polite? Well, there goes my whole "Mr. Rogers" technique.

/sings

"Please, won't you be... my aite?"

[nodachi]

" If I raise my arms, and see my opponent going for my doh, why should I let him hit my doh. Should I surrender and say "well....he got my arms up". I dont think so, I am going to stop him from getting the point. Just becuase you made one mistake doesn't mean you should let the person hit you."

This sort of a block with the arm is a little odd to me. Do I let them hit me... no. Do I do insincere kendo and bend the rules by blocking the hit in an iffy manner just so I don't lose... no to this one too.

Everyone is free to their own opinion here. I just don't think anyone learns from arm blocking in this manner.

What would I do:
Charge in so their maai is messed up and they don't hit with the monouchi and don't score ippon. No insincere kendo here, just a very aggressive response to their attempt at dou. Better yet, don't just close in on your opponent. Go for men in the process. Your men attempt should be faster than their dou attempt and they will be openning up for you to get in there. This type of interaction allows for learning to take place. Sticking your arm in the way is just asking for pain and neither party walks out with anything of value.

And of course, everyone is free to disagree with me if they choose...

[ahmed61086]

What would I do:
Charge in so their maai is messed up and they don't hit with the monouchi and don't score ippon. No insincere kendo here, just a very aggressive response to their attempt at dou. Better yet, don't just close in on your opponent. Go for men in the process. Your men attempt should be faster than their dou attempt and they will be openning up for you to get in there. This type of interaction allows for learning to take place. Sticking your arm in the way is just asking for pain and neither party walks out with anything of value.

And of course, everyone is free to disagree with me if they choose...

Yes, those are definitly options, and I fully agree with you. Taking men, or closing the distance are much better actions then blocking with your arms.

Now it just goes to where your opinon goes on the other matter.

The way I think of it is, when you are in a Kendo tournament, this is the Norm. I think calling it iffy is a little iffy. I have seen this done in every level of competition. From Mudan to Hachidan.

I think if it comes down to the Ideal, then, I would say its iffy. But realistically, its there, and has been for a while. Most competitors are in it for the competition and they don't want to lose.

Very good points, nodachi.

[Karaken]

Believe me, I've tried to get an answer without being too pushy or making it seem that I have greater knowledge. I have been doing nito since I started Kumdo, because that's what Sabumnim decided was best for me. I have tried many times to ask why he made this choice and I have never gotten an answer. I once enlisted a Korean speaker (4th dan) to inquire on my behalf and he came back and said, "I'm not sure what he explained, but trust me he gave it great thought and it is best for you".

I am chalking this up to another one of those mysteries for which I don't need to know the answer.

OW, I thought I gave you the answer on this one ( Why Nito 4 U ) :-)
As for mysteries, that's part of the fun being Asian Martial artist. It's not a science. One of the teaching manuals says "Watch out for overteaching, it destroys individual style". Also old Korean ( Chinese? ) saying goes " Read it hundred times, the meaning will become obvious". Why should we read the same phrase hundred times when a teacher can explain simply? Well, that's teacher's opinion not yours :-) So, only you hold the answer, everyone else's are just that - their opinions..

[The great I AM]

I personally wouldn't block with my arm (at least not these days.....I used to) because I hate pain. Pure and simple.

OW, maybe hes just saying "Not dou" in a different way that you don't see from other people, or maybe hes simply doing something that HE does, and that is one of his particular foibles. God knows we all have them. I'm not sure that there is any particular rhyme or reason to it, it may just be one of those things that "is".

[Old Warrior]

OW, I thought I gave you the answer on this one ( Why Nito 4 U ) :-)

I remember you saying something about fire, wind and water. After you completely confused me, you said "don't worry, he didn't make the decision without great thought". If you can reccollect more, I will have a better answer to the one question EVERYONE asks me - "Why did you start Nito?"

[enkorat]

I've read this thread a few times and I'm a bit confused as to what is being said here.

Recently, some of my kohai in my club have started to favor doing a hiki-doh reflexively, and habitually. After one or two times after they try a men hiki-men combo I get the picture and think ahead a few wazas ahead and I either come in aggressively and close my maai as they start their hiki-waza. Sometimes I can fire off a men, other times I'm still holding chudan and closing my maai. Sometimes in the second situation they'll fire off a doh even though my arms are still in the way, and they're now so far into chikama that it wouldn't even come cluse to scoring, even if my arms were open. Some kohai in our club are "known" to do this and we all joke about them leaving nice bruises on our arms.

Now this is a different kind of situation from which Old Warrior-san describes, but this is another situation where an arm could be in the way of a shinai. In this case I don't think I'm "blocking", but rather the opening isn't there for a doh in the first place. On the other hand probably my skill level is such that although I can see the hiki-doh coming, I'm not always in a position to take advantage of it. Recently I was re-shown doh suriage men, and I've been hankering to give it a shot in this kind of situation (we're on Spring Break, so no official practices :\ ) to see if that works any better.

Am I wrong to have my arms where they are? I don't think so, I'm not deliberately "blocking", yes I took it out of play because I know that they'll execute a hikidoh within a 70-80% probability and I'm setting up for that eventuality. Are they wrong for hitting my elbow? They're my kohai, its my responsibility if they do something "wrong", so if I get bruises fundamentally its my responsibility and is more of a reflection of where they are in their training path rather than "badness" or "goodness".

As for this debate about what is "real" vs. "sporty", that debate has been around for a while, I found out that my dad when he was in college after WWII was having the same debates...and its always difficult to sort out either position. My own opinion has shifted over the time that I've been doing kendo, as more issues come into focus the longer that I've been practicing.

On one hand is the idea that kendo is an "abstraction" of a sword art, where the target areas are intentionally made restrictive and difficult to get in order to "cultivate" skill. During my training for my next shinsa, several times it has come up where senseis recommend showing "men" predominantly because it is the most challenging waza to execute "well".

On the other hand I suppose if kendo was supposed to show "real life", as in a "reality based martial art system", I'd be more than happy hacking at someone's elbow so that they wouldn't be able to raise their arms. Then I'd go for the knees probably. Then again if it were "real life" and we were on a "battle field" like some anime fanboy's wet dream, we'd be armored on our arms, or I'd be on a horse...or I'd use a gun...like that scene in "Last Samurai"...which no, I still haven't seen thank you.

But perhaps there is a different sort of explanation. I think perhaps that there is a fundamental difference between shiai of different grades. On several occasions I have overheard the shimpan meeting before a tournament where something to the order of "this is a mudansha shiai, so you're not going to see perfect waza, so be a little more forgiving." Perhaps this is why some people, especially those from other arts make the rather lofty statement that shiai and shinai kendo is "hitting people with sticks" or "you wouldn't be able to cut someone like that with a REAL sword" (there always is an emphasis on "real" whenever these conversations happen). And honestly, after being and seeing a mudansha fight, I could see where some people would get that impression.

Perhaps these "sporty" elements are in the mudansha and maybe even in the shodan/nidan divisions because the scoring criteria for an ippon is more "relaxed" than at the higher grade levels.

Recently (actually last Sunday), I had an opportunity to practice with someone who recently tried for his sandan but didn't pass, along with a yondan sensei. I was the "greatful nidan candidate a.k.a. moving target". During the session, one of the comments made to the sandan candidate in question was "I think one of the reasons why you didn't pass was because although you are hitting the men, you are not really cutting the men"

I won't go into the details as to what the technical differences between a cut and hit were, because I doubt that I could do the explanations sufficent justice based on my own understanding and the limited nature of writing here. Nevertheless its become clearer to me as one progresses to a higher grade, that one of the important categories in which we are supposed to improve is the treatment of the shinai as a sword.

Furthermore, I was shown a video clip on youtube of two hachidans doing kata with metal swords, as part of my shinsa preparation. The kata in this video is, in a word breathtaking, and a little frightening. It made me feel as if I have been waving around a wooden stick in my backyard hitting a stationary tree.

So perhaps this argument over "sporty" vs. "real sword" is more a question of skill. At the lower levels, we can get away with a lot of crap and still squeek by a ippon in shiai. But just because we can at a mudansha or shodan level doesn't mean that we "should", nor that it will always be permitted.

[Charlie]

urthermore, I was shown a video clip on youtube of two hachidans doing kata with metal swords...

Can you point us to this clip, bro?

Good points, too.

[enkorat]

Hi Charlie,

It was this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWzdIpayeFk

Just before I was going to be practicing kata, the person I was practicing with said "here, watch this while I go change".

Thus I was alone, and I'm glad no one saw my reaction...

[Old Warrior]

Now this is a different kind of situation from which Old Warrior-san describes, but this is another situation where an arm could be in the way of a shinai. In this case I don't think I'm "blocking", but rather the opening isn't there for a doh in the first place. On the other hand probably my skill level is such that although I can see the hiki-doh coming, I'm not always in a position to take advantage of it. Recently I was re-shown doh suriage men, and I've been hankering to give it a shot in this kind of situation (we're on Spring Break, so no official practices :\ ) to see if that works any better.

This was obviously intended as a serious thread. Even I know the difference between an open target and one that is covered. I have been trying to ascertain what is acceptable kumdo, verses something Sabumnim does to teach me a lesson. I have a good left side doh attack that starts out like a serious men - and fools people who are substantially better than me. I have actually scored a number of times on my Sabumnim using this technique. I have seen him suck in his gut and bend at the waist to avoid the hit and drop his left hand when it is too late for him to block with his jukdo or get out of the way. I was just sincerely curious if he was just toying with me, demonstrating that I am unlikely to ever hithim, if he elects to be unhittable. Or, is this just acceptable kendo.

I've read every post and still there is no clear answer. I think Sabumnim intentionally wants to frustrate me - and its just part of his greater plan for my education.

[sainueng]

I'm not sure if it's necessarily right or wrong. A lot of times I think it's just base instincts. When our "kendo instincts", which imo in this situation is to block w/ the shinai, is not sharp or quick enough, we often fall back onto baser instincts, which would be to block w/ the arm.

The question I would raise is how is blocking the doh w/ your arm different from trapping a do strike that landed to prevent a clean zanshin. In my opinion they're basically the same thing. In fact, the trap could very well be a block that was too slow. :D I know when I trap a shinai like that my mind is thinking 1) Crap my do was open! 2) He's not finishing that point on me! 3) He's not getting away! Now is trapping correct or not? That's hard to say. On one hand if the attacker wasn't able to put together an attack that finishes, it's no good. On the other hand, the receiver showed enough awareness to prevent the attacker to finish, despite being open in the first place.

Finally I think the situation Enkorat described is definitely different one, i.e. where there never was an opening. I was criticized and corrected by my sensei when I used to do that a lot. I think it is something to be corrected. I believe this is not what Old Warrior is referring to though.

So my conclusion is that if your sensei or Sabumnim isn't criticizing you for hitting his arm when he blocks his do like that, you're not doing anything wrong. Whether or not you're supposed to learn something and do something different, I'm not sure, but there is a possibility. :)

[Shazzanzzz]

This was obviously intended as a serious thread. Even I know the difference between an open target and one that is covered. I have been trying to ascertain what is acceptable kumdo, verses something Sabumnim does to teach me a lesson. I have a good left side doh attack that starts out like a serious men - and fools people who are substantially better than me. I have actually scored a number of times on my Sabumnim using this technique. I have seen him suck in his gut and bend at the waist to avoid the hit and drop his left hand when it is too late for him to block with his jukdo or get out of the way. I was just sincerely curious if he was just toying with me, demonstrating that I am unlikely to ever hithim, if he elects to be unhittable. Or, is this just acceptable kendo.

I've read every post and still there is no clear answer. I think Sabumnim intentionally wants to frustrate me - and its just part of his greater plan for my education.

i think you may be thinking too much. May just be a habbit from his tournament days when he's young.

But, think about what you are saying. Are you saying you are purposely trying to hurt your sensei because you don't like him covering his doh? If you see you are going to hit someone, you should pull back.

[Karaken]

I remember you saying something about fire, wind and water. After you completely confused me, you said "don't worry, he didn't make the decision without great thought". If you can reccollect more, I will have a better answer to the one question EVERYONE asks me - "Why did you start Nito?"

I asked your SaBumNim about his recommendation of Nito for you. He said considering your age and Knee problems you're having from Fencing, regular kendo would be too punishing for your body, knee and feet. He was afraid that you'll either get injured, quit or both. He thought by taking Nito instead, you'd likely be more successful and less punishing for your body. Also said you're very strong and can handle Nito pretty well.

How's that? You owe me six-pack at least.

[Old Warrior]

How's that? You owe me six-pack at least.

A gentleman and a scholar, such as yourself deserves, at least, a bottle of Don Julio 1947 - (El Supremo Tequila)

[Old Warrior]

I personally wouldn't block with my arm (at least not these days.....I used to) because I hate pain. Pure and simple.

OW, maybe hes just saying "Not dou" in a different way that you don't see from other people, or maybe hes simply doing something that HE does, and that is one of his particular foibles. God knows we all have them. I'm not sure that there is any particular rhyme or reason to it, it may just be one of those things that "is".

As I mentioned in another post, I got to chat with the headmaster, yesterday. We talked about this subject and he gave me the answer. He said he takes his hand off the jukdo to show me that he can tell what I'm thinking. The same goes for dropping his hand to the side. He said, by now, I should know that if a target isn't open, don't try and hit it. He says if he senses what I am about to do he tries to give me a signal that he's on to me.

It only goes to show you that all my overthinking could not come up with his simple answer. Thats why he's the Master and I'm just a student.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Furthermore, I was shown a video clip on youtube of two hachidans doing kata with metal swords, as part of my shinsa preparation. The kata in this video is, in a word breathtaking, and a little frightening. It made me feel as if I have been waving around a wooden stick in my backyard hitting a stationary tree.That's the ZNKR instructional video, basically the bible as far as I'm concerned. You can buy copies of it. There was an english translation floating around too. Both of those gentlemen are well known hachidan. So it's no surprise their kata is very good.

The metal swords bit is no biggie, though. Once you're confident with bokken, demonstrating with iaito is not that big a step.

[Kyung]

I am not one to question the wisdom of my teacher. It has been obvious for some time that when I spar with Sabumnim he frequently takes one hand off the shinai and drops it to his side, thus covering any possible do (huri) cut. I am trying to decide if he does this to force me to cut men (muhri) or he just wants to prevent me from scoring a point. A few times I have clobbered his elbow because the target was initially open and he dropped his hand to prevent my contact. On those occasions, I have no regret that I hit him. Sometimes he even drops his right hand so kote (son mok) can't be hit.

This past Saturday, one of Sabumnim's assistants, a 3rd dan, did the same thing (why should I be surprised) and I whacked her hard. I felt terrible, but as I think about it - how can it be legal to cover a target area. I can state with certainty that it's a yellow card offense in European fencing.

My sabumnim does that all the time, but not really covering the target area. He holds the jukdo with left hand and taunts or something with right hand. And he tries to poke the neck with the jukdo. I haven't seen my sabumnim covering any target area when he goes into that mode. Usually uses the jukdo to deflect. I think in part that leaves him more vulnerable to trains you to react faster to open spots. I'm only a novice so I could be very wrong.