Is Israel the new Germany of Hitler?

[Gatts]

I read today in the newspaper that in Israel the government are soon deciding that Palestinians that are married to Israelis will not receive any citizenship due to their ethnic origin. This is just totally disgusting and really racist. I know that this has nothing to do with Kendo but I just had to voice out somewhere at my disgust of Israel and all those that support that country and especially reading a few threads in this section of the forum, I figured there are some Israeli supporters. The irony of this is that it kind of makes you wonder when the Jews where oppressed by Hitler, I would have thought that Jews would have learned some kind of compassion towards human beings and suffering, it seems not. Hmmmm…kind of makes you wonder did Hitler know something we did not know about, which was his reason for doing what he did to the Jews? Either way, I think that Israel is truly the most racist country that is blatant about its policies and know that they can still get away with it. Well what do you expect when they control the USA and the USA is probably the most influential powerful country in the world. Hmmm….lol, I guess that makes Israel the most powerful country in the world, as the US are their puppet country.

[xvikingx]

"Hmmmm…kind of makes you wonder did Hitler know something we did not know about, which was his reason for doing what he did to the Jews? "
"Well what do you expect when they control the USA and the USA is probably the most influential powerful country in the world. Hmmm….lol, I guess that makes Israel the most powerful country in the world, as the US are their puppet country."

Pull your head out of your ass.

[Atama]

Theres no place for politics in kendo....it sure as hell wont make my men cut quicker

[Anjin-san]

Agreed, I'll even go so far as to say we don't really need a 'flames' section in the forums, most of the threads are about politics anyway, which there is a place for but IMHO KWF is not it.

[Winter_Wolf]

Amen Anjin-san, down w/ the flames section!

[nodachi]

The flames section was a very good idea!

Granted lots of politics are popping up which is not kendo related, which if you don't like it then don't read it, but the original purpose of the flames section was to keep flames out of the other kendo threads. I thought it was working.

Hence, long live the flames section!

[hamish]

WTF!!

Its the same in Japan, I don't automatically get Japanese citizenship just because my wife's Japanese. What conspiracy theory have you got for that?


(I said the flames forum was un-moderated, but I might just moderate the whole forum out at this rate)

Hamish

[Anjin-san]

nodachi, seeing it from that angle I suppose the flames section does have a purpose, but here's a question worth considering... why is it that when someone wants to talk about politics they go to 'flames' instead of 'general chat'?

My guess is that people can get quite passionate about their political views, and discussion turns to heated debate turns to flame war, hence 'flames'. It saves time to start it here I guess (i.e. people get straight to flaming).

I understand why we have a flames section, but considering that most of the people on the board are over the age of 12, I think that we shouldn't need one.

[kendomushi]

The flames section does have purpose and it does help keep non kendo topics out of the kendo forums. However, most people who start a thread in the flames section I think are aware that their views are going to be received rather negatively.
Most seem only partially informed and very biased in their views of whatever their subject is at any rate.
Isreal is not the only paranoid, insular, zenophobic country in the world. They, like every nation, act in what they perceive as their own best self interest.

[Gatts]

WTF!!

Its the same in Japan, I don't automatically get Japanese citizenship just because my wife's Japanese. What conspiracy theory have you got for that?


(I said the flames forum was un-moderated, but I might just moderate the whole forum out at this rate)

Hamish

hmmm...the difference with what you say compared to what is going to happen in Israel is that yes you might not get it automatically, but you will be entitled to apply for citizenship. However, in Israel Palestinians being Palestinians will never get an opportunity due to their racial group. Can you see the difference? So basically, being Palestinian nullifies their chances for citizenship, they cannot even think about applying for it. This is blatant racism.

[kendomushi]

And being the of Korean origin in Japan, when your family was forced to come here as essentially slave labor, and you have now lived here for several generations, are born here, raised here, live and die here...... and you are still not entitled to citizenship, you have no rights as other than a foriegn visitor to the country and getting citizenship if you apply for it is still next to impossible, you will be rejected as you are not viewed as Japanese and are not viewed as providing any significant contribution to Japanese society.
Gatts, is the difference really that big?

[dorkusxmaximus]

I really think Israel is the new Nazi Germany. Look at how the Palestinians are treated by them. It's not right. They're practically treated like dogs.

[m_french]

This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have ever read on the forum since i've been here. To equate the current situation in Isearael and palestine with Nazi Germany is not only blatently racist but is also ludicrous. Weather you believe in the tactics or policies of the Israeli government or not (personally I don't) how in the world do you make the link between a country whose citizens are constantly at threat from terrorist attack to the ethnic cleansing of ones own citizens that was performed by Adolf Hitler!?!?!?!?!?!? Do you people live in a frickin' Vacum? Did you take any History in School? Gatt there are other countries in the world that do not automatically grant citizenship to people just because they are Married to a citizen. Does that mean that eveyone is a Nazi (a term that you should all be more thoughtful of using)? As for USA being a puppet of the Israeli Government...... give me a break. even after the flags on this forum have been eliminated the anti-American sentimant still runs strong. I find it incredible that the US gets blasted when we don't fall in line with the UN and we get blasted when we do........if I remember correctly the sovereign jewish state was created by the UN.

I'll take My flames off the air good night :beard:

[KhawMengLee]

Gatts probably did not write what the article said very well. The article raised concern over the ruling about marraiges between Israeli nationals and Palestinians. If you are married to a Palestinian you have to live seperate lives for he/she cannot move in with you into Israel(security reasons cited by IDF). You will either then have to move abroad or live seperate lives.

[dorkusxmaximus]

okay the analogy between the two is absolutely absurd once I think about it. M_frenchy called me ignorant :shocked:
I know my history. blah!

[Inouye02]

hahahha nancy, dont worry you can beat him up when you come down here, frenchy is a nice guy ..

[kendomushi]

Not being to live together is a completely different matter from citizenship. While I agree it is terrible it is not unique to the Isreali/Plaestinian situation either.... Example: Suu Kyi in Burma, being unable to be with her husband when he was ill and dying, separated for more than 3 years through the actions of her government. I'm sure persons more well read on other subjects than I can site more examples on greater scales.

[Karaken]

And being the of Korean origin in Japan, when your family was forced to come here as essentially slave labor, and you have now lived here for several generations, are born here, raised here, live and die here...... and you are still not entitled to citizenship, you have no rights as other than a foriegn visitor to the country and getting citizenship if you apply for it is still next to impossible, you will be rejected as you are not viewed as Japanese and are not viewed as providing any significant contribution to Japanese society.
Gatts, is the difference really that big?

Kendomushi, while we're on the subject, I have a few question if you don't mind.
- Has the situation improved at all? I thought Japan changed immigration law. ( late 90s or so ).

- How do you travel outside of Japan? Are you carrying Korean passport ( unlikely I think ) or do Japanese goverment issue non-citizen passport?


Center

[kendomushi]

To the best of my knowledge, the only significant changes to the immigration laws here was in the 80's (you no longer have to take a Japanese name). The law if very arbitrary and subject to interpretation of the interviewing and approving officials. So, while an average person must be able to fluently read and write Japanese and be seen as self supporting, providing significant benefit to Japanese society as a whole, a sumo wrestler can get citizenship just be attaining a high rank in sumo.

I am a US citizen. I travel on a combination of US passport and US DOD ID/orders. I am not a member of the US military. Japan is my adopted home and I have lived here for more than 15 years. As long as I have my current employment on a US military base, I am ineligible to apply for citizenship, residence status, or any other change for any reason.

[Kendoka]

WTF!!

Its the same in Japan, I don't automatically get Japanese citizenship just because my wife's Japanese. What conspiracy theory have you got for that?


(I said the flames forum was un-moderated, but I might just moderate the whole forum out at this rate)

Hamish

I would support that !

Richard

[Karaken]

To the best of my knowledge, the only significant changes to the immigration laws here was in the 80's (you no longer have to take a Japanese name). The law if very arbitrary and subject to interpretation of the interviewing and approving officials. So, while an average person must be able to fluently read and write Japanese and be seen as self supporting, providing significant benefit to Japanese society as a whole, a sumo wrestler can get citizenship just be attaining a high rank in sumo.

I am a US citizen. I travel on a combination of US passport and US DOD ID/orders. I am not a member of the US military. Japan is my adopted home and I have lived here for more than 15 years. As long as I have my current employment on a US military base, I am ineligible to apply for citizenship, residence status, or any other change for any reason.

Thanks for the info - However, my second question has not been answered by you yet. I meant to ask - Do you know how Koreans who lived in Japan a few generations and have not been accepted as Japanese citizen travel outside of Japan? Do Japanese government issue non-citizen passport?

Center

[samurai999]

Israel and Palestine have been "at war" for how long now? Not just this flare-up but in the previous millenium. A LONG TIME. From what I have seen, this is a religiously driven war with the flash-point being a patch of Holy Land that each claims as theirs. How ridiculous is that? It is really ironic that religions preach and preach and preach about being peaceful, but all you see in Muslim and Jewish lands is hatred for each other and willingness to "die for their God". :disapp:

One more thing, you really can't compare what Germany did to what Israel is doing now. Right now, it doesn't even fall in the same category. Is it headed that way? Only time will tell.


My 0.02$ (US)
Tim

[dorkusxmaximus]

for sure, jamie. frenchy is going to feel my wrath :grin:

[kendomushi]

My understanding is that they have a kind of permanent resident status. Their passports are as I understand it Korean issued. There are Korean support groups that handle their arrangments. Also, being forced to live as an underclass, there aren't many of them who get to travel outside the country (few have the money for it).

[xvikingx]

I was told that they are not permitted at Kobe (or was it Kansai?) University. Me and my wife were researching citizenship issues and I think you still have to take on a Japanese name, its called "naturalization". The fact is I will never be allowed to own property, and I will never be a citizen. Racism? One could call it that. But I think the burakumin have it much harder than me.
Gatts does this mean that the Japanese are the new Nazis of Asia? :devious:

[m_french]

for sure, jamie. frenchy is going to feel my wrath :grin:
When and where can i accept my beating?????? :beard:

[dorkusxmaximus]

oh no, he saw it :surprise:

[Inouye02]

not to worry Nancy, he's a big teddy bear around females , just wink and smack his men ..gahahahaha....


sorry frenchy

[kancho]

Hmm there are many arguments about Israelis and Palestinians and I am sure some of those deserve merit. But bombing innocent civilians (by both sides is wrong i.e Israel by gunships and palestinians by suicide bombers). Compare Israel to Hitler is a bit overboard and would probably lead to many complaints. Too bad they do not value human lives much.

In a perfect world they would resolve their differences by kendo. They should have sporting events and create healthy rivalries and humiliate them in sport not in politics.. Countries should be more like Canada I think. We have ethnic diversities(mostly in major centres) and races are tolerated as long as taxes are paid..

[Fantasia]

I studied the history of Israel and Palestine for several years actually before I finally made up my mind, reading articles, treatises on both sides, and "independent" analyses.

Those two cultures have been fighting over the land for literally millenia, to the point where it's impossible to say "Who owned the land first"

Finally for me it came down to one thing.

After WWII, when Israel was created as a Jewish state, there was plenty of arguments over who would own what land.

There was a proposition where the land would be DIVIDED INTO TWO SEPARATE COUNTRIES, one Israeli and one Palestinian, with joint rulership of Jerusalem. Israel agreed to this idea. Palestine said "No we want the whole thing".

That's what it comes down to for me. There was the opportunity to put the vast majority of problems right and the Palestinians were too proud (or greedy, it's hard to say) to take it.

[Smokeblender]

Gatts, I totally agree with you. Europe has opened its eyes in this matter, and hopefully american citizens will too :D .Its a sad fact that the US gives Israel 7 billion dollars a year which they spend mostly on the military. Israel is the new axis of Evil.

[seraph]

hmmm...the difference with what you say compared to what is going to happen in Israel is that yes you might not get it automatically, but you will be entitled to apply for citizenship. However, in Israel Palestinians being Palestinians will never get an opportunity due to their racial group. Can you see the difference? So basically, being Palestinian nullifies their chances for citizenship, they cannot even think about applying for it. This is blatant racism.

so. all countrys do it get over it.

[Yowai]

There was a proposition where the land would be DIVIDED INTO TWO SEPARATE COUNTRIES, one Israeli and one Palestinian, with joint rulership of Jerusalem. Israel agreed to this idea. Palestine said "No we want the whole thing".

That's what it comes down to for me. There was the opportunity to put the vast majority of problems right and the Palestinians were too proud (or greedy, it's hard to say) to take it.

No, you dumb fuck. Why the hell should the Arabs split and lose most of the land that they owned for 1400 years?

[Osso]

I guess that makes Israel the most powerful country in the world, as the US are their puppet country.
I totaly agree with you. Israel and the US politics makes me sick. Israel uses the suffering from the jews in the WW II to justify it's actions against the Palestins and the US makes the false propaganda that Palestins are terrorists and israelis are just "defending" theirselves.

In my opinion, the jews lost their right for those lands when they ran away from it with the roman invasion..

[Sushi Lover]

You are all ofcourse aware of the fact that the conflict was initially sparked by palestinians attacking israelis because they disliked jews? Israel the new nazi germany? That is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. Nobody is ever right in war and yet you guys are saying one sides good and the others bad,its just not like that. I personally don´t like Israel or america but I don´t like Palestine anymore than i like those countries.

[LNGUYEN]

In my opinion, the jews lost their right for those lands when they ran away from it with the roman invasion..

Where did you get that fact? Everybody knows that the Jews were displaced after the revolt again Rome and lost. At that time, the Rome destroyed the Jerusalem temple and displaced all the Jews to other locations. Ofcourse, there were some Jews left but very small quantities and they became minority.

[Sushi Lover]

I must be mistaken then, I was talking about the conflict in the earlier half of the 20th century not the "whole" thing. Sorry, my bad.

[samurai999]

Anybody notice that all the wars we see on the news today have a religious connection? Protestants vs. Catholics, Muslimsvs Jews/Christians? I thought religions were supposed to teach us about peace and that "all men are created equal, thou shalt not kill, etc". Oh well.. The only people not warring or don't have some "fuel" to start a war are Buddhists. The lands in Jerusalem are being fought over a small patch of holy land? IMHO, this is ridiculous.

Tim

[Bleda]

I don't blame the wars on the religions but on the leaders of the faiths. Catholics with their pope ordered crusades. Protestants revolting against the pope because they disagree on the finer points of the faith. Jews being a proud people and using "God's chosen people" idea to justify many many actions. The muslim leaders power hungry and using their followers as soldiers to take wealth for them. It's sad that so many "leaders" corrupt the messages.

[hamish]

'They've forgotten the faith and worship the creeds'

[Alex]

'They've forgotten the faith and worship the creeds'

Is that 'creeds' or 'greeds'? :ogre:

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

You are all ofcourse aware of the fact that the conflict was initially sparked by palestinians attacking israelis because they disliked jews?

There was a proposition where the land would be DIVIDED INTO TWO SEPARATE COUNTRIES, one Israeli and one Palestinian, with joint rulership of Jerusalem. Israel agreed to this idea. Palestine said "No we want the whole thing".

That's what it comes down to for me. There was the opportunity to put the vast majority of problems right and the Palestinians were too proud (or greedy, it's hard to say) to take it.



no what happened was that when the jews came to palastine the palastinians welcomed them very well and they gave them parts of the land but the jews wanted the whole country (and not only that but also parts of iraq, seria, and lebanon and sena and jordan) because they think its theirs and that they have the right to take it because its their so called "holy land"
fantasia the israilies where the ones that broke the proposition (the break almost every proposition and agreement) and the greedy ones are acctually the israilies ,if u want proof watch news other than american or british news networks (or jewish ofcource)

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

how in the world do you make the link between a country whose citizens are constantly at threat from terrorist attack to the ethnic cleansing of ones own citizens that was performed by Adolf Hitler!?!?!?!?!?!?



well m_french you r saying that the palestinians are the terrorists when the israilies r the ones that r taking em out of thair homes, bulldozing their homes, killing their family members right infront of them, kill women and children, putting innocent people in prison and torchering them,,,,, and u say that the palastinians are the terrorists ,,i mean every israili citizen has the right to hold an automatic rifle,,and the palestinians use rocks and stones ,,and the israili soldiers shoot children that trow rocks like shooting ducks,,,,,ok if u mean hamas or islamic groups yes they will attack israili people,, but what drove them to doing so is what the israilies do to their people...

mohammed

[LNGUYEN]

deleted, post later

[Jacynth]

I Agree Guys. There has to be Change!

[louisvandalen]

Maybe you guys should check www.amnesty.org (http://www.amnesty.org) and read about some of the things that happen today in Israel. I know that many will reject the comparison between germany's nazi regime and the current military state of Israel. However many of the tactics used are a like. I guess this counts for every conflict and as such a comparison is fully justified. The biggest difference however (in comparison to other conflicts) lies in the extremely advanced (and horrorsome) strategies currently being followed in this conflict. Building a wall and instating checkpoints to segregate people is way off scale. Same goes for the killing of the Palestinian leaders, never will this solve any of the problems that are dooming the area for years now. It's not the leaders but the people that uprise and engage in actual combat. And they wont if they aren't hurt.

What about integration? If everyone was to move freely, buy property and visit the same parties (yes, a mixture of jew and muslim holiday's, more vacation to all) what would happen then. Would a palestinian suicide bomber blow himself to bits whilst being surrounded by fellow palestinians? Would an Israeli gunship blast the shit out of a car when its parked in front of an Israeli supermarket? Since they all live in a shitty desert they should get along and fight erosion instead of eachother.

I guess the biggest similarity between nazi germany and the current Israeli governement is that they are/where both on the wrong track. It's a circle of violence and hate, someone has to break it.

Easier said as done especially without 3th party involvement. I guess the UN should intervene and settle the score. I can't see either the Israelies nor the Palestinians give up and come to an agreement. It worked for Bosnia (wasn't flawless but it's ok down there now). But I guess the almighty Israeli lobby will never let this happen. Palestinian influence on the international community is little but a fart, they can't change shit I'm affraid.

Freaking leaders, who the hell needs them. I'd say ditch em and make them responsible for infrastructure, aid and other financial reliques. Don't give them control over weaponery or the power over an army of merely young people. Make sure the army is purely there for defence (if that would be the case everywhere we can sack all generals and grow sunflowers in the old barracks).

Paradise is so close we can almost touch it, it's just our blindness that prevents us from getting there.

Regards,

Louis

[reg]

if diplomats can't make any progress, what would a bunch of kendo nuts achieve by discussing this highly volatile, and somewhat touchy issue?

"i'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole"
- Jesus [random south Park episode]

[louisvandalen]

if diplomats can't make any progress, what would a bunch of kendo nuts achieve by discussing this highly volatile, and somewhat touchy issue?
One of the commonly heard sentences after the WWII was "wir haben es nicht gewust" which basically means: We didn't know. Well, in this case at least a couple of kendo nuts know.


"i'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole"
- Jesus [random south Park episode]And so he gave us internet.

Best Regards,

Louis

[m_french]

how in the world do you make the link between a country whose citizens are constantly at threat from terrorist attack to the ethnic cleansing of ones own citizens that was performed by Adolf Hitler!?!?!?!?!?!?


well m_french you r saying that the palestinians are the terrorists when the israilies r the ones that r taking em out of thair homes, bulldozing their homes, killing their family members right infront of them, kill women and children, putting innocent people in prison and torchering them,,,,, and u say that the palastinians are the terrorists ,,i mean every israili citizen has the right to hold an automatic rifle,,and the palestinians use rocks and stones ,,and the israili soldiers shoot children that trow rocks like shooting ducks,,,,,ok if u mean hamas or islamic groups yes they will attack israili people,, but what drove them to doing so is what the israilies do to their people...

mohammed
Sorry for the late reply, i was just surfing here and had no idea I had been called out months before. "Freaky" If you read my post in its entirety i believe I made my self clear that I do not agree with the policies of israel. However that was not and is not the question. The question was weather or not they are guilty of ethnic cleasing. My comments stand for themselves, if you are constantly under attack by forces who use methods that are not aimed at the army or government of the opposition or against suspected threats or insurgents, but rather attack the citizens as they conduct the business of thier everyday lives, then yes that is terrorism. To protect ones self is not offensive IMHO.
And as for your comment on the News here and in Brittan being onesided...no doubt, but do you think that the news you are listening to in your part of the world is objective....well why carry on a conversation with an idiot?

good night

[don quixote]

While I don't have anything against jews, and you shouldn't either! I do have something against zionists, who are really no better than nazis. Lebensraum, drang nach osten, blut und boden, chosen people etc. It is interesting that Herzel and the zionists cooperated well with Hitler and the national socialists before Hitler went over the top with his insane and amazingly evil final solution in the late thirties.
And anyway, nothing can excuse what is being done to the palestinians. Apartheid lives, sponsored by the US! The problem stems from the occupation and anexation of Palestinia by the zionists, and this by the way started many years before the holocaust. Do not forget it.

[don quixote]

One more thing, you really can't compare what Germany did to what Israel is doing now. Right now, it doesn't even fall in the same category. Is it headed that way? Only time will tell.
Tim[/QUOTE]

Well, the palestinians live in ghettoes, have no rights and are discriminated angainst in every possible way. The only difference is the lack of extermination camps. I'd say same category, slower methods.

[indigo0086]

The japanese allow foreign citizenship if one gives up their current citizenship. Thye do not allow dual citizenship from what I've read.

[PRBot.Com]

Some people who have no clue or a re too stupid to realise the importance of knowing FACTS spread all kinds of lies and believe all sorts of bulshit.


Stupid people need someone or something to distract their minds from their own idiocy.

Israel has the most just supreme court in the world. Even the world court admitted as much!

Max

[louisvandalen]

Israel has the most just supreme court in the world. Even the world court admitted as much! MaxSomehow this sounds very strange, a country on the edge of war usually has more restrictions in place compared to the peacefull ones. Since many of the victims never even face court I wouldn't make to much of a fuss about it.

Again, check:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150291997 (on their legal system)

http://www.amnesty.org (http://www.amnesty.org/) (and search for israel in general)

They aint nice at the moment.....

Best Regards,

Louis

[samurai999]

One more thing, you really can't compare what Germany did to what Israel is doing now. Right now, it doesn't even fall in the same category. Is it headed that way? Only time will tell.
Tim

Well, the palestinians live in ghettoes, have no rights and are discriminated angainst in every possible way. The only difference is the lack of extermination camps. I'd say same category, slower methods.[/QUOTE]


Actually, whos to say that Palestinians would do the same if the situation were reversed. I don't see the whole thing as discrimination but as a "religion vs. religion" war that has been drawn out for decades even centuries.

Tim

[Meat Thinker]

I read today in the newspaper that in Israel the government are soon deciding that Palestinians that are married to Israelis will not receive any citizenship due to their ethnic origin. This is just totally disgusting and really racist. I know that this has nothing to do with Kendo but I just had to voice out somewhere at my disgust of Israel and all those that support that country and especially reading a few threads in this section of the forum, I figured there are some Israeli supporters. The irony of this is that it kind of makes you wonder when the Jews where oppressed by Hitler, I would have thought that Jews would have learned some kind of compassion towards human beings and suffering, it seems not. Hmmmm…kind of makes you wonder did Hitler know something we did not know about, which was his reason for doing what he did to the Jews? Either way, I think that Israel is truly the most racist country that is blatant about its policies and know that they can still get away with it. Well what do you expect when they control the USA and the USA is probably the most influential powerful country in the world. Hmmm….lol, I guess that makes Israel the most powerful country in the world, as the US are their puppet country.
Is that you, Lyndon LaDouche, master of double-quack? Are you running for president again as a write-in candidate? A Nazi in Democrat clothing? LOL Please tell me again how the whole world economy is going down the toilet, it was a nice story, but you're just bitter because you're a crappy 2-bit con man and you aren't rich because everyone with a brain in their head can see you are just a stupid asshole.

Anyway, this forum's flame section is pathetically whimpy, you have no idea just what is possible in the flames department, this ain't even on the scale! For some real flames, in fact all flames all the time it seems like, try http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/community/ Try me in there, and I will take your head off, if you're even worth acknowledging as a worthy opponent.

I think it's better to have the flames section there as a recourse, because people are going to post shit on the message boards one way or another, it can't be helped, it's best to have a place where people can go vent and that is accepted. If you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the flames section, it's supposed to be a place where people can say totally insane things.

Besides, if you want my honest opinion on the whole Israel thing, to some extent it is a moot point, because as far as I am concerned, the Bible is NOT literally true and God didn't give shit to anybody because he does not in fact exist. On the other hand, the world messed up big time by not preventing the genocide of WWII, in fact I'd say there were a lot of people who deliberately looked the other way because they secretly hoped that it would succeed, for example, Why was the Pope helping Nazis escape from Germany when the tides turned?

Genocide is NEVER right, regardless of who is the target, but the Jews do not have a monopoly on being the victims of genocide, it has been taking place as long as there has been recorded history. In fact, if you do want to take the Bible literally, genocide is described repeatedly in the Old Testament with the tribes of Israel slaughtering the men, women, and children of various nations with the assistance of Jehovah. Still, two wrongs do not make a right, you should never sacrifice your own integrity just to get back at someone else.

Religion just doesn't make any sense to me in general, it is akin to saying, "Knowing everything that I have been able to learn by observing cause and effect and learning to make successful predictions, I am going to go to some social backwater and find the most ignorant, uneducated person that I can find and have them explain to me how the world and the universe work, and then I am going to believe everything that they say literally and wholeheartedly and throw everything that I know out the window." I mean, c'mon, the people who wrote the Bible were IGNORANT by modern terms they did not know their ass from a hole in the ground, but you're going to take their word literally rather than believe what you can measure with your own eyes? That is just STOOPID.

[Wifenmummy]

No, you dumb fuck. Why the hell should the Arabs split and lose most of the land that they owned for 1400 years?

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because god gave that land to the jews it belongs to the jews! also jews arent like hitler! i mean come on! most jewish attacks are from the army (right!?!) and all the muslim arab attacks are from terrorists!!!
lets just knock them off the jewish rock!
sorry to hear the immigration laws r hard in japan! there pretty cosy here in australia.. well sort of in the way of living in the country for so many years... my dad came from england when he was 8 and applied and recieved citizenship in his late 30s... never left the country so no need for a passport...

[Wifenmummy]

no one controls usa! usa controls itself!

"mean, c'mon, the people who wrote the Bible were IGNORANT by modern terms they did not know their ass from a hole in the ground, but you're going to take their word literally rather than believe what you can measure with your own eyes? That is just STOOPID."=meat thinker...

*ugh!* u dont know what ur even talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so now ur going to attack christians as well as jews!!!!! *shrugs* sounds like ur so hard nosed that its really not worth my time....... But GOD LOVES YOU!

[Meat Thinker]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because god gave that land to the jews it belongs to the jews!
Yeah, right, Why couldn't those stinky Arabs see all the "No Trespassing, Jewish Property" signs that were posted everywhere across the desert while the Jews went off and did whatever for hundreds of years?

Prove it. Prove to me: a) that God exists; b) that God gave shit to anybody ever. If you get up from your comfy chair and go do something else for an hour, you forfeit your right to cry "Seat back!" when you come back to the room. If you vacate some land for hundreds of years, I think it's a bit much to expect the people who live there now to just welcome you back with hugs and kisses just because, "God said I could do it." God told me I could have some beer from your fridge, in fact he said he was giving your car to me, so you better hand over the keys now or else!

[Meat Thinker]

no one controls usa! usa controls itself!

"mean, c'mon, the people who wrote the Bible were IGNORANT by modern terms they did not know their ass from a hole in the ground, but you're going to take their word literally rather than believe what you can measure with your own eyes? That is just STOOPID."=meat thinker...

*ugh!* u dont know what ur even talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so now ur going to attack christians as well as jews!!!!! *shrugs* sounds like ur so hard nosed that its really not worth my time....... But GOD LOVES YOU!
Yeah, just crawl back into your dark and cozy womb of ignorance, there's nothing to see here. Our survival as a species 100% depends on us, there is no supernatural being with any vested interest in our preservation. The physical universe is what it is, it does not care about your ideas, the entire Earth does not event amount to a flea on a rat's ass within the cosmos. Sometimes, I seriously think it would be a major improvement if a big friggin' rock just smacked into our planet and wiped out the whole goddamned human species.

[Wifenmummy]

thats very interesting reply...
1) i have no beer in the fridge the only alcohol in this house is sake and that goes very quickly and only on weekends
2) i dont have a car so ur dreamin there...
i dont have to prove anything to you... it sounds like a waste of time ur heart is so hardened towards God...
Why did the 'stinky arabs' (your words) have to move anyway? why cant they stay in palestine?! I dont see the war between thoose counties ending in my lifetime

[Meat Thinker]

thats very interesting reply...
1) i have no beer in the fridge the only alcohol in this house is sake and that goes very quickly and only on weekends
2) i dont have a car so ur dreamin there...
i dont have to prove anything to you... it sounds like a waste of time ur heart is so hardened towards God...
Why did the 'stinky arabs' (your words) have to move anyway? why cant they stay in palestine?! I dont see the war between thoose counties ending in my lifetime
Why can't I move into your apartment with you and say it's mine and not pay rent? Sake will be fine, and I'll expect refills. When the Jews came in, they kicked some Arabs out of where they were already living, and had been living for generations. Not that being colonized by Great Britain was any more right.

Until you can accept that you will die and that will be final, you are not truly free to do anything as a human being, you will always be comfortable with the notion that if things don't work out, there's always "the afterlife." Ditto for reincarnation.

My heart is not hard, I believe in love, but I do not feel obligated to say that "god = love" I like to just call things what they are. I do believe that there is power in all of us, but it is a human phenonmenon, we are far too easy to attribute the good things about humanity to a god and not accept that they are a part of ourselves as well, there is nothing supernatural about it.

[Wifenmummy]

i was thinking about it a bit more..( i love jewish people, jewish culture.. ) um was thinking the last 10 years or so australia has slowly been giving back land to aborginals so why cant it happen with jews and arabs? what makes it more different?
im pretty confused why they made settlements and now the government wants the jews to get out of gaza?! just weird..
i accept i will die. i know i will be at peace. and i know there is a place for me that i can not percieve in my mind but will be full of answers and happiness... things wont matter..
i dont belive in coincedences everything has a purpose.. every life is a life.. if something is created its a alive..
"we are far too easy to attribute the good things about humanity to a god and not accept that they are a part of ourselves as well, there is nothing supernatural about it."
hmmm well i dunno bout that... yes there is good in all of us... yes we can do all good things..there is a supernatural... ive been on both sides im now a christian but before i was completely into wicca and ive seen some weird stuff.. my hubby also was better than me at wicca and has seen weirder things... but thats all just demons and stuff.. no pretty earth maidens there!
jesus lives in me.. the holy spirit guides me and helps me ..........
its good to hear that your heart is not hard :)

[Wifenmummy]

oh i just moved out of a apartment im now in a house :) i live pretty close to everything u need docs, shopping centres,sports, library everything so theres no real point in driving at the moment.. except to go on hoildays or travel..

[Meat Thinker]

i was thinking about it a bit more..( i love jewish people, jewish culture.. ) um was thinking the last 10 years or so australia has slowly been giving back land to aborginals so why cant it happen with jews and arabs? what makes it more different?
im pretty confused why they made settlements and now the government wants the jews to get out of gaza?! just weird..
i accept i will die. i know i will be at peace. and i know there is a place for me that i can not percieve in my mind but will be full of answers and happiness... things wont matter..
i dont belive in coincedences everything has a purpose.. every life is a life.. if something is created its a alive..
"we are far too easy to attribute the good things about humanity to a god and not accept that they are a part of ourselves as well, there is nothing supernatural about it."
hmmm well i dunno bout that... yes there is good in all of us... yes we can do all good things..there is a supernatural... ive been on both sides im now a christian but before i was completely into wicca and ive seen some weird stuff.. my hubby also was better than me at wicca and has seen weirder things... but thats all just demons and stuff.. no pretty earth maidens there!
jesus lives in me.. the holy spirit guides me and helps me ..........
its good to hear that your heart is not hard :)
Alright, it sounds like we might not be that far apart, just using different semantics. My great-grandfather was a Koldun, a shaman practicioner of Koldovtsvo in the Tatras of Slovakia, you might say it's like the Slavic variation of Wicca that spread throughout most of Eastern Europe long before Christianity. I have been praticing shamanic drumming and journeying for over ten years now, and I have also experienced some mighty weird things, but I have interpreted them differently. To me, they are all aspects of humanity and of the self, they are projections and not "out there" separate from me.

The key difference from my perspective is where you place the locus of control. Am I the cause of my life? Or am I just a victim to larger forces that are beyond my control? Do I define who I am? Or do I let someone else tell me who I am? My goal is to live life from a word-based reality: I am who I say I am, and I honor my word as my self. However, the other side of that is to be grounded in physical reality and not living in denial or making up pipe dreams that will never happen. Yeah, there are things that could happen to me that technically would be outside of my control, but in the face of those circumstances, I can still function with dignity and honor and still be who I am and have integrity regardless of anything else that is going on.

If you look at the big picture, what I am interested in is the study of personal force, self control, internal power, whatever words you would choose. I think this personal force--the ability to say who you are and to make things happen--some people like to refer to as god, but I still argue that is an unnecessary complication and tends to externallize and abdicate responsibility for the power that every human being has inside him or her. You are Jesus. Jesus was not special, he just understood what we are, but that is something that any human being could do.

[Wifenmummy]

you have a interesting background to.. jesus is special because jesus never sinned! And thats impossible to do! :) Jesus is God. Every now and then like every christian u get confused with God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.. Everything being/happening has a purpose and a path, u make ur own decisions of course... umm tryin to think..maybe an example.. God wants nothing more than to see his people happy, he wants to bless people but if a person is to busy feeling sorry for ones self or doesnt study or get out of bed thats making it a bit hard to bless them.. So God doesnt give as all things jus coz we exist.. he blesses us when we work hard...
yes u can function with honor regardless whatever is going on... you are a very deep person! :) what a thinker!
i heard a story not so long ago.. that a few lawyers (uk or usa) got together and planned to make a case against the bible/church that Jesus did not exist... after reading the bible and being determined that jesus didnt exist their conclusion was that there was no doubt! no case to be made.. jesus did exist..
All i know is that my hubby should have died several times but he didnt... God kept his hand over his life.. (was into electricity, explosions, snakes as a boy) in fact his mother says that my hubby used to sing songs to God but no one had told him about God and his family at that time was not christians. :)

[KhawMengLee]

you have a interesting background to.. jesus is special because jesus never sinned! And thats impossible to do! :) Jesus is God. Every now and then like every christian u get confused with God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.. Everything being/happening has a purpose and a path, u make ur own decisions of course... umm tryin to think..maybe an example.. God wants nothing more than to see his people happy, he wants to bless people but if a person is to busy feeling sorry for ones self or doesnt study or get out of bed thats making it a bit hard to bless them.. So God doesnt give as all things jus coz we exist.. he blesses us when we work hard...
yes u can function with honor regardless whatever is going on... you are a very deep person! :) what a thinker!
i heard a story not so long ago.. that a few lawyers (uk or usa) got together and planned to make a case against the bible/church that Jesus did not exist... after reading the bible and being determined that jesus didnt exist their conclusion was that there was no doubt! no case to be made.. jesus did exist..
All i know is that my hubby should have died several times but he didnt... God kept his hand over his life.. (was into electricity, explosions, snakes as a boy) in fact his mother says that my hubby used to sing songs to God but no one had told him about God and his family at that time was not christians. :)

Hmmmnnn...the bible is written by human hands...never has it been said that it was directly given by God. Each of the books are an interpretation of events by people that were there...human interpretation is vurnerable to human actions. Just because it is written does not make it so.

I think that the Iraelis have right to be where they are...and so do the arabs. As far as I am concerned, the Israelites invaded the Arab's land. Much in the same way the colonists took Australia. The Arabs, like the Aborigines, were nomadic...I guess the concept of Terra Nullis comes to mind here.

The Saxons invaded Britain and pushed out the Celtic tribes but you don't hear any crap about "oh, that was our God given land." it would ridiculous today for the Irish, welsh an scots to ask the Anglo-Saxons to leave. The Israelis and Palestinians need to co-exist. A ceasefire needs to be met and the Israelis need to stop grabbing land whenever they feel like it.

[Wifenmummy]

like i said the war with arabs and jews will not end in my lifetime

[louisvandalen]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because god gave that land to the jews it belongs to the jews! also jews arent like hitler! i mean come on! most jewish attacks are from the army (right!?!) and all the muslim arab attacks are from terrorists!!!
Have you ever even heard of an Palestinian army? Well they don't have one. Did you know they close down the Palestinian territories time after time? Did you know the population density per sq mile in the Gaza Strip is 9,533 (the uk has a density of only 638 residents per sq mi, very crowded place). Did you know that people in the gaza strip have actually 360 sq km to move arround in freely before they hit checkpoints and are harrased by soldiers? Did you know that over the last 4 years 4000 people got killed of which 3000 where Palestinians. As long as these conditions exist there can be no peace and only the Israeli governement has the power to change this. Will they ever forgive eachother? No, not for the comming 2 maybe 3 generations. But if they prolong restrictions and lock people into small territories wihtout real means of providing for them selfes this will continue for ever.

For as much as the holy woble boble, I'm quite happy for you that you have choosen (or more probably: have been given) a religion that gives you comfort. But mind you, you and the people that believe in your God are a minority (the christians). So you could be seriously wrong.

Whatever religion, there is no way that anything from this religion should intervene with a proper legal system that respects human beings and human rights. No God should call upon hate and violence to resolve conflict. Neither should you defend such a thing.

Best regards,

Louis

[louisvandalen]

that a few lawyers (uk or usa) got together and planned to make a case against the bible/church that Jesus did not exist... after reading the bible and being determined that jesus didnt exist their conclusion was that there was no doubt! no case to be made.. jesus did exist..
Thanks for this revealing piece of information. It's all clear to me now.

Best regards,

Louis

[louisvandalen]

there is a supernatural... ive been on both sides im now a christian but before i was completely into wicca and ive seen some weird stuff.. my hubby also was better than me at wicca and has seen weirder things... but thats all just demons and stuff.. no pretty earth maidens there!
Did you try and kill some with your shinai, Buffy?

Best Regards,

Louis

[don quixote]

no one controls usa! usa controls itself! What a strange idea. I thought the USA was governed and administrated by a bunch of greedy liars. They are not all jews; indeed there are quite a lot of fine white anglo-saxon protestants with blue eyes and straight noses among these greedy liars. Perhaps that is why you and a surprising number of other people have not noticed that they are all greedy liars.

And even if you are a christian, that does not mean that you have to defend or support other christians or jews when they are doing something obviously wrong, such as participating in or supporting genocide, or just being greedy liars.

[gdane1989]

most religions suck. Why? Well the people that believe in that religion tend to follow the human trait and selfishness and use all that shit to their advantage. I used to be christian, hell, I was even first raised as a mormon. These 'sins' are just an excuse that says "oops I messed up, oh well, I'm gonna start a crusade!"

Other religions are more balanced and do not discriminate but strive for inner peace. Buddhism, for example, tends to give people a more forgiving and attentive approach to life, even other religions. Christianity, (Protestants, catholics, etc.) Tends to be a narrow-sighted, hard-headed religion. And most christians dont even realize it and call people of other religions, or athiests, hardheaded.

What I mean by narrow sighted is that christians, muslims, etc. Usually say shit like "If you have premarital sex, or if you steal a 20" you're going to hell, or they'll use their favorite weapon, "I feel sorry for you, or "I'll pray for you."

[gdane1989]

religion and war also tend to go hand in hand. The crusades, jews. vs. palestiniens, or just a 3rd party coming in because they see how religion is being used by a dictator to screw his country over.

Religion was born because of wanting for a greater understanding. But like most things, was taken control of by human greed.

as for the Jews and palestinians, I think it's crappy that the jews end up on the palestinians doorstep whining for land, and next thing you know Palestiniant are being discriminated by. Not nearly as bad as the holocaust however. But born from the same human trait. Hate.

Sort of like meat thinker, I tend to look at things from a nuetral and wider perspective not driven by opinion, and then I'll make up my own mind.

[samurai999]

i think i posted something similar earlier in this ridiculously long post. Catholics Protestants, Jews/Muslims, Hindus/Muslims, Christians/Muslims, etc. The only religion that doesn't seem to have any rivalries is Buddhism.
Its funny how Jews and Muslims are basically battling for one patch of holy land that both claim is theirs by birthright,inheritance, God (whose ever it is) etc.

Tim

[samurai999]

What a strange idea. I thought the USA was governed and administrated by a bunch of greedy liars. They are not all jews; indeed there are quite a lot of fine white anglo-saxon protestants with blue eyes and straight noses among these greedy liars. Perhaps that is why you and a surprising number of other people have not noticed that they are all greedy liars.


Dunno about you but, more of our legislature (in California) and nationally are being run by people who are NOT WASPS. Our governor is from Austria (if you didn't know by now). There are plenty of Jewish, Catholic, Christian, African American, Asian-American, Latino-American etc, representatives in office, and since they are all politicians, they are all capable of being greedy liars (as you say so fondly in your post) as the next person whether they be asian, jew, WASP, etc. (Marion Berry comes to mind and the DC area voted him in again much to my amazement) All of the WASPS I know are honest to God, hard working, and good friends.

My 0.02$(US),
Tim

[gdane1989]

i think i posted something similar earlier in this ridiculously long post. Catholics Protestants, Jews/Muslims, Hindus/Muslims, Christians/Muslims, etc. The only religion that doesn't seem to have any rivalries is Buddhism.
Its funny how Jews and Muslims are basically battling for one patch of holy land that both claim is theirs by birthright,inheritance, God (whose ever it is) etc.

Tim
I agree,

This reminds me of little kids saying things like, "daddy said I could play the x-box! So you better get off right now!"

A reply to this goes something like this, "well mommy said I could too so there!"

Stupid kids, they should just share, even on one player games you can take turns.

Sorry for the wierd example but it's true. Human nature, if we're not blind to one thing it's another...

[Kaoru]

Those fucking Jews. Who the fuck do they think they are? Okay, I know they were persecuted, but that doesn't give them the fucking right to do this fucked up shit. Right now, I'm hating the fucking Israelis from their toes to their crooked noses.
Spector-san,

I warned you in your first thread. Unfortunately, you logged off before you could read it.

So, I will repeat it here.

I am warning you now that your language is unaccceptable and so is your rude attitude on this forum. We do have rules here. One more post like this, and I will personally see to it that you get banned immediately. Do you understand me? At 13, you are old enough to mind your manners and not act like a person who comes from the gutter.

Oh, and I would suggest that you not get smart with me, because I WILL report you to the Moderator and you WILL get banned if you post another post like the above and the one in your thread.

This may be the flames section, but the are limitations to what you may say, even here. You can disagree, but do not get nasty.

I am not kidding about getting you banned, by the way. You just used up two chances out of three before I turn you in. Heck, I should just turn you in now, but I believe in being fair and giving a person a chance to shape up. So, I will give you one more chance.

Just remember if you hate, it will consume you until you are nothing but a miserable person who has no friends. Do you want that? You are too young to hate like some ignorant, mean, and hateful person who takes pleasure in hurting others for fun. You should NEVER hate like this. You will be alone and miserable for the rest of your life if you continue. Maybe you don't want to listen, but you should.

Remember to think twice before you post. The next could get you banned.

Kaoru

[Reikon]

I suggest therapy for Spectre.

[Kaoru]

I suggest therapy for Spectre.
Agreed.

Kaoru

[Shiro]

Those fucking Jews. Who the fuck do they think they are? Okay, I know they were persecuted, but that doesn't give them the fucking right to do this fucked up shit. Right now, I'm hating the fucking Israelis from their toes to their crooked noses.

You don't have to mix up Jews and the State of Israel. I don't like the israeli government at all, but I have no problems with judaism as a religion.
Mind you, there were even jews to pray for Arafat and there are Jews that disagree strongly with the State of Israel.

Sharon and his buddies, new Hitlers? Yes.
Jews planning to take over the world? No, those were fascist rumors.

[SPECTRENumber1]

I'm sorry. I was just frustrated.

[Kaoru]

I'm sorry. I was just frustrated.
Hi Spector-san,

Your apology is accepted. :)

Next time you get frusterated, go outside and run around or toss baskets or whatever, to get yourself unwound. Or, if that sort of thing doesn't work, pick up a good book and just escape in that for awhile. Getting frustered is annoying at times, I know. :) You just need to find the right way to get unfrusterated. :)

Kaoru

[crabbi]

I'm sorry. I was just frustrated.

Waaaahhh.... so call a Waaaahmbulance... SPECTRENumber1 is fwustwated... Like we should care arse-wipe... go disappear...

Why do people dignify this guys 'fwustwation' with a response... and how do you know he's a 'fwustwated' teenager anyway... because he says he's 13? - He's probably a 'fwustwated' 30 year old has-been (or never was) just crying for attention... this Forum attracts them like flies....

I don't forgive you... I think that you are a twat... go back in your hole and die...

all the very best

your bestest fwend

cwabbi

[kru$$ti]

I definitely think that parental influence has something to do with your attitude... I found this picture of your Dad... it explains a lot!!!

.... and I found your photo on the web... extraordinary!!!

http://www.tshirthell.com/images/contestpics/a249_003.jpg
...........

Kru$$ti

[kru$$ti]

...and the only thing worse (and more tedious) than SPECTRENumber1 is crabbi and his world-weary self-satisfied crap....

.........

Kru$$ti

[nalogg]

man, i'm kinda pissed that i missed this whole thread....
there are quite a lot of things i'd like to reply on.... lots of mis-information and ignorance too.

But maybe it was fate that this thread slipped under my radar.
I know i might have made some people angry.
I'm just tired of commenting on people that try to reason with some religeous ideal that they think of as a universally accepted and true concept that drives all their thoughts. it's like trying to hit a home run on a hockey rink.... i may succeed, but i'm playing a different game alltogether :/

all I can say is that there is no room for hate in this world, and i'll leave it at that.

[goh]

can a moderator/writer edit the title of this thread?
as a israeli and as a guy that whole of his grandfather family was murdered in the holocaust i find the title very offensive.
(i did not read the content of this thread because im afraid of the thoughts some of the forum members may have)

than you

[KENSHIN]

@ Wifenmummy

OMG!!! You just have not got a clue what the hell you are talking about do you? I have never read so much crap from one individual before. No wonder we have problems in this world, when people like this have the freedom to open their mouths.

[KENSHIN]

can a moderator/writer edit the title of this thread?
as a israeli and as a guy that whole of his grandfather family was murdered in the holocaust i find the title very offensive.
(i did not read the content of this thread because im afraid of the thoughts some of the forum members may have)

than you


Yes, you may find it offensive, but I am pretty sure Germans find it very offensive when they are constantly reminded or portrayed as a bunch of murderers.

Just live with it m8y! or simply ignore it!

[Wifenmummy]

. I used to be christian, hell, I was even first raised as a mormon. " whoa!!!!!! sounds like you got a very bad deal there!!!!! i dont consider mormons christians sorry! unless their saviour is Jesus Christ...

[Wifenmummy]

. No God should call upon hate and violence to resolve conflict. Neither should you defend such a thing. true my God doesnt approve of hate and violence.. and im in the wrong to take a side in this......
did you enjoy calling me names louis?

[KENSHIN]

true my God doesnt approve of hate and violence..


Would that be the same Christian god that George Bush and Tony Blair follow? I get extremely irritated every time I read Christians trying to paint a nice picture about their phoney religion.

Furthermore, I think this whole conflict is far from a religious war, and people who see it as only a religious war need to get their brains into gear. It is more political and more to do with fighting over who controls what bits of land, it is as simple as that. Religion is just thrown into the fray because religion is used as a motivational tool to inspire the masses, that them fighting each other is valid. It was only 50 or so years ago that the Palestinians were pretty much communist. Just the same form of communism we see in Iraq, yes that's correct, do you remember a chap called Saddam Hussain, he and his Bathist party follow a communist ideology same goes for Syrian leader Bashar Assad and his Bathist party, therefore, get into your brains these countries were not run islamically. So going back to my point, we now all of a sudden see these once communist Palestinians ranting a raving that they want an Islamic state, what we can obviously see is that the Palestinian leaders are using Islam as a tool to achieve their own political ambitions and to also inspire the masses by giving them a greater sense of identity. Same goes for the Israelis; Judaism is again used in the same way. Zionists don’t give a crap about Judaism, however are interested in using the religion to meet their political goals. The only people that want others to pay attention to it being a religious war are the Christians because in their whacked out brains in makes them supposedly look good, they can then say “oh look at these two terrible religions, their religions only bring death and destruction. All follow Christianity which is the true path to peace.” Yeah, kiss my ass!!!!

In regards to the first post, “is Israel the new Nazi Germany” well I would have to say there are similar characteristics that’s for sure.

[drizzt]

Would that be the same Christian god that George Bush and Tony Blair follow? I get extremely irritated every time I read Christians trying to paint a nice picture about their phoney religion.


and i hate it when unedjucated smart ***** inform others that there beliefs are unfounded, and that said smart *** is right when he has no proof.

if you are an atheist, im happy for you.you however have absolutley no proof that my beliefs are "phony". give me actual physical evidence god does or does not exist.

[Hank]

give me actual physical evidence god does or does not exist. Proving something doesn't exist is nigh impossible. Prove that the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus don't exist - can't - yet no one over 10 years old believes they exist. What you can say is that there is no evidence for their existence.

Just my 2 cents on proving that things do or do not exist.

Hank.

[KENSHIN]

and i hate it when unedjucated smart ***** inform others that there beliefs are unfounded, and that said smart *** is right when he has no proof.


That’s really funny what you say because Christians have a tendency to do this quite a lot, especially those evangelical types.

[drizzt]

Proving something doesn't exist is nigh impossible. Prove that the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus don't exist - can't - yet no one over 10 years old believes they exist. What you can say is that there is no evidence for their existence.

Just my 2 cents on proving that things do or do not exist.

Hank.
i know that man:) thats why i said it. hes being a little jerk, and trying to show his rearend

[drizzt]

That’s really funny what you say because Christians have a tendency to do this quite a lot, especially those evangelical types. well you obviously fit into the same category.

[Anjin-san]

Guys... all this negativity is a bit unhealthy don't you think? I mean if the world to us is just an amalgamation of sense-data, and we can't objectively say anything does or does not exist, shouldn't we just shift our focus on what will give us the most positive experience?

Its not really about logical debate here. Someone will throw up another fact thats supposed to generate some kind of emotional response, whether it has any basis in truth (subjective OR objective) has simply no relevance as when the person you intended reads it, they take it as a personal attack, and respond accordingly. The worst is when you bring up stories of rape, murder and so on to prove your points, the tragedies of the past become your conversational setpieces. All just to get the other guy to shut up. For example:

X: Some political comment,
Y:I see what you mean about A and B, But on C I beg to differ...
Z: How CAN YOU SAY THAT?? OMG WTF!!!! A B and C is WRONG!!!
X:The sheer audacity! 50 billion schoolgirls were thrown in a well with a grenade! President bush is an oil-hungry martian! Have at thee insolent knave!
Z:You'll never be half the man your mother was! The sons of Sirius will reclaim zion!!!!

Its a base level addiction to the chemicals you're feeding yourself with all the hate guys... lets share the love :P... in fact, I'll put my money where my mouth is, and I'll post it in flames....

I keep getting ahead of myself, my first post on this thread was years ago... and I said pretty much the same thing. Go on, vent, keep going guys, though we could be talking about JT and Britney and it would be exactly the same conversation.

[Wifenmummy]

swallow some words of the bible and you might like the taste...
im so sorry if someone or something has made u so angry towards God.. thats for you and Him to talk it thru...
Really we shouldnt involve ourselves around foolish people... they will have chances and they choose how to use them....
NO they are not the new Hitler... there will only ever be the one Hitler. Since islamic people are people with passion and tons of aggression...... the war on terror wont end. The world isnt our home, we are not of the world.. anyone who is a friend of the world is a enemy in Gods eyes..
that is all i have to say..
;)

[Anjin-san]

swallow some words of the bible and you might like the taste... The Bible for sure has some great stuff in it to help you lead your life in a way that adds value to those around you. I especially like the idea of turning the other cheek, it takes a lot of humility, and gets more difficult in severe situations but if everyone did it, then no one would have to.

I also like the idea of unconditional ('christian') love as there's no equivalent in Islam, the religion I was raised in.


im so sorry if someone or something has made u so angry towards God.. thats for you and Him to talk it thru... Personally I'm not that angry towards God. In my worldview I choose to beleive he doesn't exist (like I also choose to beleive the tooth fairy doesn't exist, as an example) so I can't technically be all that pissed at him. I beleive that we live our lives in 'relative determinism' which means, basically, that we have a much higher degree of control over our destinies than we give ourselves credit for. For me, God makes it easier to blame my problems on someone else, rather than take responsibility myself.


Really we shouldnt involve ourselves around foolish people... they will have chances and they choose how to use them.... True, there are a lot of people out there who aren't good for you. For me, option number one is to try to make them better, if that doesn't pan out, option two is to get on with MY life.


NO they are not the new Hitler... there will only ever be the one Hitler. Hitler was a very evil man, however anyone in his situation, with his upbringing, mindset, motivations would (and have) done the same. I guarantee, you go back far enough, most countries are guilty of 'war crimes' at one point or another. Agreed, he holds the record on evil, but evil men have never been thin on the ground.


Since islamic people are people with passion and tons of aggression...... On Islamic people being really aggressive at first I thought 'she's right... I know a few total nutcases in my family' but then I thought about my mum who wouldn't hurt a fly. At the same time, If you have a longer than 5 minute conversation with my uncle, he'll tell you exactly why the jews are taking over the world, and they want to kill all the muslims. He'll also give you his theory that different races are from different planets and we're not the same species, and the pakistani special forces are apparently the best in the world (but all thats for another thread).

To be honest it does vary from place to place. If you go to Pakistan the sermons tend to be a lot more aggressive than the ones here in the UK. Every muslim I know is anti-america, however while its socially unacceptable to go and blow people up over here, in hardcore Islamic circles you're seen as a 'real man' with a place reserved in paradise if you strap yourself into a bomb vest and do the business. Terrible stuff. On the other hand, my grandma is a muslim, she's one of the most caring people I know. My mum as well, affords me pretty much anything I want and doesn't harbour any feelings of anti-semitism, or anti-anythingism. Another uncle on my mums side is very Islamic but attempts to bring an interpretation of it that allows for other religions to go on alongside others (as the Arabs did way back when they started conquering everything, with stipulations and other related problems, but those of other faiths weren't persecuted). I'm fairly sure that this broad spectrum of aggressiveness can be observed in any religion, and isn't just a problem that Islam faces.


the war on terror wont end. I feel the 'war on terror' CAN end, either in mass genocide of one or the other side, or recognition of 'terror' as a military entity and negotiations with that entity beginnning.


The world isnt our home, we are not of the world.. anyone who is a friend of the world is a enemy in Gods eyes.. :)I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Perhaps you're alluding to some Christian teaching, what do you mean by 'friend on the world'?

Thanks

Ali

[KENSHIN]

Since islamic people are people with passion and tons of aggression......


Why do you think there is so much aggression? If you are going to give me the typical Christian response, i.e. their religion teaches them to be aggressive, then you can stop right there because I have heard that nonsense statement ad-nausea. I think you Christians need to start thinking about more humanly factors, i.e. not being able to live a normal life because of constantly being at war with people invading their lands, bombing their homes, killing their families, abusing their rights in their own countries. It has nothing to do with religion; these Muslim people are reacting in a way that any human would react faced with all these types of problems. But you Christian types love jumping in and trying to use all this pain and suffering and will use it to your advantage and go on a preaching rampage to try and add more recruits to your dwindling religion by trying to blame it on their religion that all this suffering is due to them being Muslims. It’s all political!!!

[drizzt]

Why do you think there is so much aggression? If you are going to give me the typical Christian response, i.e. their religion teaches them to be aggressive, then you can stop right there because I have heard that nonsense statement ad-nausea. I think you Christians need to start thinking about more humanly factors, i.e. not being able to live a normal life because of constantly being at war with people invading their lands, bombing their homes, killing their families, abusing their rights in their own countries. It has nothing to do with religion; these Muslim people are reacting in a way that any human would react faced with all these types of problems. But you Christian types love jumping in and trying to use all this pain and suffering and will use it to your advantage and go on a preaching rampage to try and add more recruits to your dwindling religion by trying to blame it on their religion that all this suffering is due to them being Muslims. It’s all political!!!
WOW, let us hear the enlightend one preach. You seem to be capable of spewing huge amountss of excrement, yet making absolutley no sense.

Im sleepy and this a pointless argument so i wont write the book i was going to write. However i do have to comment on part of your little tirade.

"It has nothing to do with religion"

Thats an amazing fact since i believe the exact reasons most terrorist groups who attack the US, and much of the West, are screaming about it being Jihad. If i understand the definition of that word, it translates to something like holy war.......... yet it has nothing to do with religion. this is an amazing coincidence.

"But you Christian types love jumping in and trying to use all this pain and suffering and will use it to your advantage and go on a preaching rampage to try and add more recruits to your dwindling religion....."

Thats also an impressive statement considering Christianity is still the largest religion in the world(this may have changed. im not trying to be pompous, i just remeber the numbers from a couple of years ago).



I will offer a suggestion that, as far as im conserned, you can roll into a ball and shove it ......, since it will probably do as much good. Come down off your pedestal and stop insulting people. You spew unfounded accusations, and demean othersd beleifs. I put a challenge to you earlier and i put it again, show me proof my religion is false. show me proof there is no God, or that the Christian God I beleive in is false. You complain and wine because christians prosthelize to others, yet you come onto this board assuming your beleifs are the only real ones, and that all other should kow-tow to you. We(mostly) are not unintelligent dolts whom you can push around. Please contribute intelligent conversation and not spew your own political rhetoric, just to get angry when we disagree.

I find your attitude to be insulting, and you have now convinced me you are either A. a teenaged kid repeating what he heres mom/dad say, or B. a very immature adult who takes snatches of others views on political and religious matters.



Anjin-san.
Nice to see inteligent rhetoric in threads on this board. I am happy we have a person who is edjucated in the Muslim faith here to quash rumors and falsehoods. If I ever make a comment you think is meant as insulting, please assume i worded it poorly:). i sometimes get to typing to fast and word things badly, but rarely mean them as insults.

[Berugijin]

I will offer a suggestion that, as far as im conserned, you can roll into a ball and shove it ......, since it will probably do as much good. Come down off your pedestal and stop insulting people. You spew unfounded accusations, and demean othersd beleifs. I put a challenge to you earlier and i put it again, show me proof my religion is false. show me proof there is no God, or that the Christian God I beleive in is false. You complain and wine because christians prosthelize to others, yet you come onto this board assuming your beleifs are the only real ones, and that all other should kow-tow to you. We(mostly) are not unintelligent dolts whom you can push around. Please contribute intelligent conversation and not spew your own political rhetoric, just to get angry when we disagree. Now this is funny AND good proof of how brainwashed christians are. Somehow they twist it the other way around, it is US that have to prove there is no god, we have to prove that their religion is nothing but a sham.

Why don't YOU prove US that there is in fact a god? This is how the "Scientific Method" (google it) works. You don't run around saying that scientists have to prove you wrong on your beliefs that there are living pink elephants in your bogu-bag.

Now, if I was told since childhood and every sunday of my life that there is a huge colony of pink elephants in my bag, then I would believe it. And I'd be posting on kendoworld fora saying:

"I put a challenge to you earlier and i put it again, show me proof my religion is false. show me proof there are no pink elephants, or that the pink elephants I beleive in is false."

Ofcourse, you're all free to believe what you want. You believe in a god since childhood, I believe in F=m.a since childhood. All I know is that I've seen the proof of my belief.

[LNGUYEN]

Until when the science can proof that there is no God, then I will accept. Otherwise, Science is not that far yet. As I see for now, science only found out how some of things work the way it is, but can't prove where did it come from. Also most of things the science know about, let say universe, are theory, not fact.

[drizzt]

Now this is funny AND good proof of how brainwashed christians are. Somehow they twist it the other way around, it is US that have to prove there is no god, we have to prove that their religion is nothing but a sham.

Why don't YOU prove US that there is in fact a god? This is how the "Scientific Method" (google it) works. You don't run around saying that scientists have to prove you wrong on your beliefs that there are living pink elephants in your bogu-bag.


I am not challenging anyones beliefs. I bear no burden of proof because i make no claims of falsehood. if you intend to prove my religion is a falsehood, the burden of proof falls on you, not me. I understand the "scientific method" and i see no bearing in this conversation.

I have a hypothesis- God does exist, i follow a true religion

i have gathered my information- i have reports from the bible and from outside stories of christs life, as well a judaic writings

There is no experiment. just as you are UNABLE to disprove the existence of God, i have no physical evidence there is(not that you would accept anyway)a God. therefore we must interpret our historical and evangelical evidence

therefore i draw my conclusion- I have found sufficient evidence in my own heart and mind that I believe in God, just as you have found sufficient evidence that you see pink elephants(although i have another hypothesis about why you may see those).

The point of the challenge was not to force my beliefs on others, nor be a smart ***(although theres ALOT of that floating around). The point was simply, if you cannot disprove something , your opinion is just an opinion, not the cold hard fact HE and YOU both are attempting to force in my face.

[drizzt]

Before you attempt to insult me and Christianity, I suggest you take a step back and realise that this is not a question for science, nor is it an argument that is winnable be either side. I would prefer to drop the issue, simply because this is degenerating into an insult match, not an inteligent religious or political debate. I refuse to stoop that low

[Berugijin]

Until when the science can proof that there is no God, then I will accept. Otherwise, Science is not that far yet. As I see for now, science only found out how some of things work the way it is, but can't prove where did it come from. Also most of things the science know about, let say universe, are theory, not fact. It is a fact that Newtionian physics works in everyday life. I fill in these numbers in these neat little formula's and it all works out. What doesn't work out is me walking on water, splitting the ocean, making wine from water. Proving something doesn't exist isn't logical, proving that something exists is far more logical. See my pink elephants. I can say right here, right now that Jesus was a drunk and snorted cocaine every saturday night. Prove me wrong! It doesn't work that way.


I find your attitude to be insulting, and you have now convinced me you are either A. a teenaged kid repeating what he heres mom/dad say, or B. a very immature adult who takes snatches of others views on political and religious matters. As opposed to you who simply reiterates what he's been spoonfed every sunday morning? I mean no offense.


i have gathered my information- i have reports from the bible and from outside stories of christs life, as well a judaic writings Ah yes the bible. Which one do you mean by the way? The one written by the Muslims, the jews, the christians, geez there's so many to pick from! If you can recall your highschool history lessons there's a thing called 'be critical about your sources'. This implies asking yourself the question WHO wrote it, WHY did they wrote it, etc... Can you answer these questions about a book that's 2000 years old?

I don't see how any of you can trust writings that date back to those uncivilized times. Do you also believe Roman mythology? Why not?

Again, I stress that I do not judge any of you for your beliefs. But since we are all well-educated human beings we can all tolerate criticism and other points of view.... right?

[Berugijin]

Before you attempt to insult me and Christianity, I suggest you take a step back and realise that this is not a question for science, nor is it an argument that is winnable be either side. I would prefer to drop the issue, simply because this is degenerating into an insult match, not an inteligent religious or political debate. I refuse to stoop that low
I did not mean to insult you but I do understand. I've met a lot of christians who view any sort of criticism on their thoughts and beliefs as personal attacks. I did not mean for this debate to be viewed as an 'insult match' but rather simply to encourage you to consider other points of view. I also feel that "intelligent" and "religious" are sort of mutually exclusive...

[joekc6nlx]

Forgive this tired old man for asking, but what does this thread have to do with kendo? I feel that if you want to flame each other, do it in some other website's forum.

We're supposed to be studying kendo as a way to bring us together, I don't see any of these flames doing that, rather, they're tearing us apart.

[drizzt]

I did not mean to insult you but I do understand. I've met a lot of christians who view any sort of criticism on their thoughts and beliefs as personal attacks. I did not mean for this debate to be viewed as an 'insult match' but rather simply to encourage you to consider other points of view. I also feel that "intelligent" and "religious" are sort of mutually exclusive...

i do respect your views, and im glad to see this was not meant to be an attempt at instigating a fight :). Unfortunatly inteligent and religious are mutualy exclusive when it comes to debates in most cases. if objectivity is applied, then they can be. But then again thats almost immpossible

[Anjin-san]

(something like)muslims aren't aggressive, they're just pissed because people blow them up True to an extent, at the same time they can use certain interpretations of islam as a catalyst for resourcing excessive retaliatory agression.



Thats an amazing fact since i believe the exact reasons most terrorist groups who attack the US, and much of the West, are screaming about it being Jihad. If i understand the definition of that word, it translates to something like holy war.......... yet it has nothing to do with religion. this is an amazing coincidence. Total respect for you and your beleifs man, one small detail I'd like to correct.

Direct arabic translation of the word jihad = 'struggle'. My gut tells me this 'Holy War' business was drummed up by the media. You might be thinking of a 'fatwa' which is a kind of 'holy edict' and can be anything really (I think its equivalent to a papal bull).


There is no experiment. just as you are UNABLE to disprove the existence of God, i have no physical evidence there is(not that you would accept anyway)a God. therefore we must interpret our historical and evangelical evidence Out of pure interest, would you agree that you're choosing whether or not to beleive in god? And that in your case, whether or not god ACTUALLY exists, it would be beneficial to you to beleive in god?

[samurai999]

Now this is funny AND good proof of how brainwashed christians are. Somehow they twist it the other way around, it is US that have to prove there is no god, we have to prove that their religion is nothing but a sham.

Why don't YOU prove US that there is in fact a god? This is how the "Scientific Method" (google it) works. You don't run around saying that scientists have to prove you wrong on your beliefs that there are living pink elephants in your bogu-bag.

Now, if I was told since childhood and every sunday of my life that there is a huge colony of pink elephants in my bag, then I would believe it. And I'd be posting on kendoworld fora saying:

"I put a challenge to you earlier and i put it again, show me proof my religion is false. show me proof there are no pink elephants, or that the pink elephants I beleive in is false."

Ofcourse, you're all free to believe what you want. You believe in a god since childhood, I believe in F=m.a since childhood. All I know is that I've seen the proof of my belief.

I can replace the christian content with Islam and from the reports I've seen from Time, SFGate, etc., I can use the same words. You guys are arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first (ie prove my religion is wrong, and prove your religion is right).. this is ridiculous.

Well the scientific method is all well and good, but try explaining why the universe exists in the first place. Why do we have feelings? Hell, why do we even exist? I dunno too much but i can't explain this through scientific means. Even though we know that the basic building blocks of the universe are made of really tiny strings (string theory), why do these even exist? Heck, I don't know?

Tim

[bluhawq]

Just a quick correction. Muslims never wrote the bible. The holy book is called the Quran. I wouldn't say Islam is an aggresive religion either because to actually kill somebody is a sin in itself. No. Put that in another way. To kill yourself (suicide bombers) is a BIG sin. How can they say they're acting in the name of god if the act itself is a sin???Doesn't make sense to me.

[Berugijin]

I can replace the christian content with Islam and from the reports I've seen from Time, SFGate, etc., I can use the same words. You guys are arguing whether the chicken or the egg came first (ie prove my religion is wrong, and prove your religion is right).. this is ridiculous.

Well the scientific method is all well and good, but try explaining why the universe exists in the first place. Why do we have feelings? Hell, why do we even exist? I dunno too much but i can't explain this through scientific means. Even though we know that the basic building blocks of the universe are made of really tiny strings (string theory), why do these even exist? Heck, I don't know?

Tim

Actually, the egg came first (dinosaurs laid eggs, birds/chickens are offspring of dinosaurs). There is a theory that we have feelings due to evolution, eg. parents who "care" for their young protect them better, hence passing on the emotion genes.

String theory is really that, just a theory, an attempt to unify the four fundamental forces. What I am trying to explain (my efforts are in vain) is that science attempts to explain things in a logical way. Religion says "this is how it is, accept it or be burned as a heathen".

[drizzt]

were did a big section of this thread go?

[h2o]

were did a big section of this thread go?

Gone in the backup I'd guess. Like my account was... :(

[drizzt]

little assanine hacker. the bad part is what he did was not complicated, nor original(im assuming the smart alleck who posted actualy figured aout how to do it and it wasnt a random error)

[Wifenmummy]

Just a quick correction. Muslims never wrote the bible. The holy book is called the Quran. I wouldn't say Islam is an aggresive religion either because to actually kill somebody is a sin in itself. No. Put that in another way. To kill yourself (suicide bombers) is a BIG sin. How can they say they're acting in the name of god if the act itself is a sin???Doesn't make sense to me.

um no its not a sin to muslims.. i forget the full explaination and details but something along the line of they arent muslims so its ok.. (go figure why they kill other muslims tho e.g iraq)
Muslims didnt write the bible! :( who said this? its NOT the same God either.. silly Abraham :( oh well..

[Wifenmummy]

This implies asking yourself the question WHO wrote it, WHY did they wrote it, etc... Can you answer these questions about a book that's 2000 years old?
the bible consists of a few different books. But you would figure out all your questions there if you just read it ;) letters, records, accounts for important events.. are all written in there.
As for your evolution theories.. keep finding holes in the theory & patching them up.. i.e IF there was a big bang then parts of the universe would be different temperatures or something.. but the universe is all the same temperature or somethin'... if your interested look it up yourself

[drizzt]

biggest issue with the big bang is the fact it violates a basic scientific principle. energy is netiher created nor lost, commonly refered to as the law of conservation of energy. if its an absolute law, how did the universe get here(btw im throwing up an argument AGAINST the big bang not FOR any religion)


bluhawq- sometimes fundamentalists make up there own rules, or modify rules of religions to meet there needs. I beleive Islam also accepts the old testament and some of the new testament. From what the friend i have that is muslim has told me, they consider christ essesntialy a profit who got a big head and strayed from GOD.

[Wifenmummy]

The Bible for sure has some great stuff in it to help you lead your life in a way that adds value to those around you. I especially like the idea of turning the other cheek, it takes a lot of humility, and gets more difficult in severe situations but if everyone did it, then no one would have to.

I also like the idea of unconditional ('christian') love as there's no equivalent in Islam, the religion I was raised in.
Personally I'm not that angry towards God. In my worldview I choose to beleive he doesn't exist (like I also choose to beleive the tooth fairy doesn't exist, as an example) so I can't technically be all that pissed at him. I beleive that we live our lives in 'relative determinism' which means, basically, that we have a much higher degree of control over our destinies than we give ourselves credit for. For me, God makes it easier to blame my problems on someone else, rather than take responsibility myself.
True, there are a lot of people out there who aren't good for you. For me, option number one is to try to make them better, if that doesn't pan out, option two is to get on with MY life.

Hitler was a very evil man, however anyone in his situation, with his upbringing, mindset, motivations would (and have) done the same. I guarantee, you go back far enough, most countries are guilty of 'war crimes' at one point or another. Agreed, he holds the record on evil, but evil men have never been thin on the ground.

On Islamic people being really aggressive at first I thought 'she's right... I know a few total nutcases in my family' but then I thought about my mum who wouldn't hurt a fly. At the same time, If you have a longer than 5 minute conversation with my uncle, he'll tell you exactly why the jews are taking over the world, and they want to kill all the muslims. He'll also give you his theory that different races are from different planets and we're not the same species, and the pakistani special forces are apparently the best in the world (but all thats for another thread).

To be honest it does vary from place to place. If you go to Pakistan the sermons tend to be a lot more aggressive than the ones here in the UK. Every muslim I know is anti-america, however while its socially unacceptable to go and blow people up over here, in hardcore Islamic circles you're seen as a 'real man' with a place reserved in paradise if you strap yourself into a bomb vest and do the business. Terrible stuff. On the other hand, my grandma is a muslim, she's one of the most caring people I know. My mum as well, affords me pretty much anything I want and doesn't harbour any feelings of anti-semitism, or anti-anythingism. Another uncle on my mums side is very Islamic but attempts to bring an interpretation of it that allows for other religions to go on alongside others (as the Arabs did way back when they started conquering everything, with stipulations and other related problems, but those of other faiths weren't persecuted). I'm fairly sure that this broad spectrum of aggressiveness can be observed in any religion, and isn't just a problem that Islam faces.

I feel the 'war on terror' CAN end, either in mass genocide of one or the other side, or recognition of 'terror' as a military entity and negotiations with that entity beginnning.
:)I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Perhaps you're alluding to some Christian teaching, what do you mean by 'friend on the world'?

Thanks

Ali

Ali i really liked how you thought it all thru and didnt get all angry with me..
i noticed you pointed out that the non-aggressive types like your mum & grandma.. understandable. :) Female suicide bombings are pretty rare.. and I tend to see a Muslim woman very reserved, quiet, obediant and in some places oppressed & mutalited(sp? sorry)
the bit on the we are not of this world, is biblical & christian talk.
'friend of the world' is being worldy... (trying hard to explain it & now world looks like a spelling mistake to me ahhh!) will have to think about it more

[Wifenmummy]

Muslims have no guarantee of being saved. They believe that all their works will be accounted for and that on Judgment Day, if your bad works outweigh your good works, you are going to go to hell. But if your good works outweigh your bad works, you'll probably go to heaven. (Since God is all-powerful, they concede that He may do with you as He pleases, even if you have been very righteous. They hope He won't be having a "bad day" at Judgment.) A third possibility is that you could go to hell and burn your sins off for a while and then be allowed into heaven. The only way Muslims can be guaranteed to go to heaven is through "jihad." Although it is often translated "holy war," "jihad" literally means "exerting force for God." One could be in "jihad" by writing a book about Islam, or by sharing his faith to bring others to Islam, or by physically fighting for the cause of Islam. If a Muslim dies in "jihad," he is guaranteed to go to heaven.

(theres all your jihad info)

[Wifenmummy]

The Bible is unique in that it:




was written by over 40 authors...
was written on 3 different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe...
was written in many different places: wilderness, prison, traveling, islands...
was written over a period of 1,500 years...
was written by people who had different kinds of jobs: fishermen, kings, shepherds, a herdsman, a politician, a doctor, a tax collector, a rabbinical scholar and more...
(to answer the previous question)

[ISSAC RU]

You can't blame jews for being smarter than the arabs

[Wifenmummy]

also isnt it correct in the middle east that muslim men are allowed to rape non muslim women?! especially if they are christian?! to get into heaven?!

[Berugijin]

um no its not a sin to muslims.. i forget the full explaination and details but something along the line of they arent muslims so its ok.. (go figure why they kill other muslims tho e.g iraq)
Muslims didnt write the bible! :( who said this? its NOT the same God either.. silly Abraham :( oh well..

Yeah well I heard that the bible says that christians have to eat babies every full moon, but "i forget the full explaination details but something along the line if the babies aren't christian so its ok". Your ignorant posts without ANY facts at all are just a waste of space and time. You are a bible-thumping bigot.


As for your evolution theories.. keep finding holes in the theory & patching them up..

As for your ideas on a) geocentrism, b) the earth is flat, etc... The church claimed all of these things without any proof at all. Nice track record. Well paint me pink and slap me silly for buying this whole "evolution theory"... It's a theory (like all things in science are) and it is living remarkably well up to factual data and findings. But you know what? I'm sure all these scientists are wrong, god put dinosaur bones on this earth just to test our faith... Yeah right, I don't hate religious folk, but I just can't stand blind ignorance. Perhaps people like you are just too arrogant or full of themselves to consider the fact that monkeys are your family?


there was a big bang then parts of the universe would be different temperatures or something.. but the universe is all the same temperature or somethin'... if your interested look it up yourself

Yeah this or that or something. Christians aren't too big on exactness :-) All you heard was someone twice your IQ say "universe" and "temperature". But what really sticked in your head wasn't the facts, no, it was that it was (in your view) "unrefutable proof against the bigbang theory".


the bible consists of a few different books. But you would figure out all your questions there if you just read it ;) letters, records, accounts for important events.. are all written in there.

But it was written by christians, back in those days ALL of them were bigots. I think I'll rather read something less biased, thank you very much. I would like to refer you to a book too, it's called "On The Origin Of Species".


also isnt it correct in the middle east that muslim men are allowed to rape non muslim women?! especially if they are christian?! to get into heaven?!

How does it feel to be on the left side of the Bell Curve?

[drizzt]

As for your ideas on a) geocentrism, b) the earth is flat, etc... The church claimed all of these things without any proof at all. Nice track record. Well paint me pink and slap me silly for buying this whole "evolution theory"... It's a theory (like all things in science are) and it is living remarkably well up to factual data and findings. But you know what? I'm sure all these scientists are wrong, god put dinosaur bones on this earth just to test our faith... Yeah right, I don't hate religious folk, but I just can't stand blind ignorance. Perhaps people like you are just too arrogant or full of themselves to consider the fact that monkeys are your family?

But it was written by christians, back in those days ALL of them were bigots. I think I'll rather read something less biased, thank you very much. I would like to refer you to a book too, it's called "On The Origin Of Species".


I hate people who standard ignorantly mired in the idea that science can prove everything. as i said, many scientific theorys look excellent.......until you reach a point were it breaks a basic scientific law. The univers cannot exist unless one or more scientific laws are not laws. conservation of energy, newtons laws of motion, The idea of the infinity of time and the universe, these dont exist if there is a starting point, yet are scientific FACT.

I would not say that Darwin(i beleive the book you referenced is one of Darwins works?. Thats not my field of study, so im not 100% sure) was unbiased by any means. He was a scientist who was interested in proving his own research was right. He was just as bigoted as any christian writer. Essentialy you have no proof i am wrong, i have no proof you are wrong. I can poke holes in scientific theory until im blue in the face, and you can point out the fact i have no physical evidence of God and his influence.

I would like to see come out of this thread a little inteligent understanding. the amount of arrogance on BOTH sides in this thread is amazing. becasue YOU beleive you are right does not make you right. I'm happy you have an opinion, but do not insult others when you do not brng absolute proof.

[ISSAC RU]

No..the real the new Germany of Hilter is Japan...~0~

[Berugijin]

I hate people who standard ignorantly mired in the idea that science can prove everything. as i said, many scientific theorys look excellent.......until you reach a point were it breaks a basic scientific law. The univers cannot exist unless one or more scientific laws are not laws. conservation of energy, newtons laws of motion, The idea of the infinity of time and the universe, these dont exist if there is a starting point, yet are scientific FACT.

Well duh. That's why they're called 'theories'. Newton's laws of motions held up just fine until we tried them on sub-atomic particles or at velocities approaching c. They don't work out in those cases. Einstein's laws do. What was your point again? That scientists aren't allowed to make mistakes?


I would not say that Darwin(i beleive the book you referenced is one of Darwins works?. Thats not my field of study, so im not 100% sure) was unbiased by any means. He was a scientist who was interested in proving his own research was right. He was just as bigoted as any christian writer. Essentialy you have no proof i am wrong, i have no proof you are wrong. I can poke holes in scientific theory until im blue in the face, and you can point out the fact i have no physical evidence of God and his influence.

There's a saying, "a scientist is just as excited when he proves himself wrong as when he proves himself right". Darwin was religious (Unitarian), he was not bigotted at all because he saw physical evidence and came up with a theory that seems more than plausible AND conflicted with the bible.

If you like to poke holes in scientific theories, by all mean, I think scientists are dying to hear what you have to say.


I would like to see come out of this thread a little inteligent understanding. the amount of arrogance on BOTH sides in this thread is amazing. becasue YOU beleive you are right does not make you right. I'm happy you have an opinion, but do not insult others when you do not brng absolute proof.

Nobody can bring absolute proof, but some can bring proof that's "good enoug (for now)". The definition of "good enough" is quite different for both sides.

Fundamentalists like wifenmummy are satisfied with "Because god made it so, that's why, now stop asking these questions and attend sunday mass instead" in reply to "Why does an apple fall to the ground?".

That is the major difference! We can all be wrong about theories about dark matter, thermodynamics and whatnot, but the important difference (which seems oblivious to all) is that inquisitive people (humanists) (you don't need a Masters of Science) wonder why things happen and not just take "because god made it so" for an answer.

I really hope we see another cultural movement like the Renaissance humanists because it's desperatly needed in these times where a certain president can claim (I paraphrase) that god has chosen him to rid the world of terrorism...

To recapitulate, there's nothing bad about being wrong, but there is something very wrong with just allowing yourself to be spoonfed to the point where you no longer think about what is being told to you ("Iraq has WMD")...

[Hisham]

also isnt it correct in the middle east that muslim men are allowed to rape non muslim women?! especially if they are christian?! to get into heaven?!

It's going to be a long one. For the record ,i'm no theologian but i like to consider myself a truth seeker.
Didn't want to post in this thread but i think that your posts are too much to leave them unanswered. Did you read anything about the islamic civilization? Do you in your right mind think that a religion which made questioning and looking for wisdom an important part of it allow such acts of barbarism (having sex without mariage is a sin in islam, i'll let you correct yoursef as far as rape is concerned) .
When the catholic church was "reigning" over europe and favoring the nobleman over the people and making them serve by saying that the last ones on earth will be the first in paradise (and that's only the simplified version), that same clergy that monopolised the bible and let the populous in the dark fearing the questioning of there claims (which was done later by Luther), at the same time muslims were abolishing slavery my dear lady and encouraging learning, tolerance and many other principles found in islam, science was never anti-religion and vice-versa in those days.None muslims people sought the islamic universities back in that time, do you think that the renaissance in europe was an isolated phenomenon or that it "timeleaped" from the greeks? well think again, in a way i don't blame you for your ignorance, i blame the latent orientalism in modern countries, if you told me that most morrocans are ignorant, it would be understandable when you see there reality but what's the reason for your ignorance, sorry for the harsh words but i've had enough of people who don't thouroughly research what they're saying and make up there own minds, only hearing and propagating a one-sided version and getting there information from people without asking them a basic and important question :"what are your sources mr preacher or whomever?" Yes the muslims world is a mess, most people in it aren't acting on muslim principles for instance see how flagrant the differences between the poor and rich are, how irresponsible our leaders are, how ignorance is making people live in darkness, this is definitely not what islam stands for, this is not what our ancestors fought for.

The people in modern countries should be the most open-minded people in the world based on there knowledge of others not only because they know "how to party". You got public libraries, easy access to the internet, you could easilly get both sides of the story, with an honest (by that i mean lock up the stereotypes or better erase them) search you'll definitely get to a better understanding. For muslims getting to paradise is based on there earthly deeds but ultimately it's God's mercy that is sought in there inward and outward interactions, this concept serves in keeping the muslim humble whatever his amount of good deeds (vanity of the "righteous") , it's all about staying alert as much as possible as far as internal and external behaviour are concerned,anyway this is another topic plus there are many concepts to discuss.
Wifenmummy, muslims believe that the message is "one" from Adam to Muhamad passing by Abraham which by the way you should respect since your a christian as a messenger of God (if you were an atheist i would understand the way you spoke of him but you're not) ,Moses and Jesus and many others, peace be upon them all.
Muslims agree with the christians that Jesus (Issaa in arabic) is the "word of god" (Kalimatu Llah) as in the one that speaks the word of God which he did since birth and many other principles but we disagree on the deification of Jesus ,on the son of God status and the crucifiction, the debate has been going on on these points for ages.
I don't want my intervention to be the start of a debate, all i wanted is to hopefully make you see that there's much more to be known out there than what you hear in the media or from people that never even interacted with muslims.
It takes courage to "get out" knowing that your beliefs might be chalenged and not staying with the same people that always comfort your mind's negative stillness, i'm not pointing at you specificly, i'm talking in general.

I hope that i didn't offend you but please believe that my intentions are good.
Respect to the mummy and may your kendo prosper

[drizzt]

To recapitulate, there's nothing bad about being wrong, but there is something very wrong with just allowing yourself to be spoonfed to the point where you no longer think about what is being told to you ("Iraq has WMD")...

Heed your own advice. Thats all I will say on the matter

[Hank]

I hate people who standard ignorantly mired in the idea that science can prove everything. as i said, many scientific theorys look excellent.......until you reach a point were it breaks a basic scientific law. The univers cannot exist unless one or more scientific laws are not laws. conservation of energy, newtons laws of motion, The idea of the infinity of time and the universe, these dont exist if there is a starting point, yet are scientific FACT.

I would not say that Darwin(i beleive the book you referenced is one of Darwins works?. Thats not my field of study, so im not 100% sure) was unbiased by any means. He was a scientist who was interested in proving his own research was right. He was just as bigoted as any christian writer. Essentialy you have no proof i am wrong, i have no proof you are wrong. I can poke holes in scientific theory until im blue in the face, and you can point out the fact i have no physical evidence of God and his influence.

I would like to see come out of this thread a little inteligent understanding. the amount of arrogance on BOTH sides in this thread is amazing. becasue YOU beleive you are right does not make you right. I'm happy you have an opinion, but do not insult others when you do not brng absolute proof.Try not to hate the people "ignorantly mired in the idea that science can prove everything." That might bring the arrogance down a bit.

Read up on the big bang - google it, there's plenty out there. The argument you bring up about said bang is used as a debate point for people advocating "Creation Science" (about as Orwellian as you can get). And it's wrong - scientific laws are not carved in stone - handed down by physics gods in ancient times. They are just ways of explaining what things do at certain times in certain situations. At other times in other situations, things might act a bit differently and this looks like the case when looking at the fractions of nanoseconds right after the big bang. As time goes by this will be explained more clearly as more people look at it and build off the work of people before them. This is science - you can't look at it at any given time and say "There, everything is correct" but you can say "Well, they're darn close".

And this is the big bang we're talking about - a pretty new concept. Darwin's theory is much older and has been clarified by generations of biologists. Any holes you think you see in it have probably already been filled.

What I don't get is how some people can't look at this theory and say "Well, god started the process" and be satisfied, as they've had to for countless other things proven by science. And, I wish religious people would stop taking science as an attack on religion - believe me, the science/religion fight is mainly propagated by the religious people. I don't know any scientists/engineers who are motivated in their work by a hatred of religion or even a want to debunk it - and most of the people I know are scientists or engineers.

Bah, I don't know if I got any of my point across, but I'll post it anyway.

Hank.

[samurai999]

Actually, the egg came first (dinosaurs laid eggs, birds/chickens are offspring of dinosaurs). There is a theory that we have feelings due to evolution, eg. parents who "care" for their young protect them better, hence passing on the emotion genes.


Well if the egg came first, where did it come from?

Tim

[LNGUYEN]

Well if the egg came first, where did it come from?

Tim

Humm, let me think? From Chicken A.s! Am I right?

[drizzt]

^^ you do realise your not talking to some unedjucated moron right? I understand exactly what the big bang is. I have friends who are Graduate students doing research here on that very subject thanks. Scientific LAW is in fact what it says, a law that is always a certain way. when it is broken then we call it a theory. there is a huge difference between scientific law and theory.

I guess since no one has hit the idea yet ill spell it out. The great challenge scientists face in proving that the big bang is possible is the law of conservation of energy. Energy is neither created nor is it lost, only released. If this law maintains true, the galaxie would not exist because no energy can be created. The big bang theory also causes troubles for physicist(sp?), as it causes issues with the principles of infinity.

I wont start a debate on Darwin as i dont have the time, nor the patience to do so over the internet. I will point out however that not all the holes in his, nor any other evolutionary theory have been filled. Had they been filled, the level of research still underway would not continue

[Hank]

^^ you do realise your not talking to some unedjucated moron right? I understand exactly what the big bang is. I have friends who are Graduate students doing research here on that very subject thanks. Scientific LAW is in fact what it says, a law that is always a certain way. when it is broken then we call it a theory. there is a huge difference between scientific law and theory.

Well, in the interests of not being arrogant, I just erased my long reply after re-reading it and instead found a pretty cool page that explains things very well. All questions are explained by a person with a PhD in astronomy from Harvard, so he's much better at answering them than myself, who is only interested in astronomy as a hobby. He answers all sorts of questions about the big bang - even ones that appear hostile. It's a good page.

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/acosmbb.html

Later,

Hank.

[h2o]

I never really understood why science and religion could not walk hand in hand. As I see it, they try to answer to completly different questions.

Science can never give us the answer to why we are here, and what purpose we have in life. But it is great on explaining how the world works.

Therefore I do not like when
1) Religious people claim to know how the world was created, and blame all scientist who thinks otherwise to be stupid and ignorant.
and
2) Non-religious people try to explain why there is no god, and why we were put on this earth (by proof of science).

[drizzt]

^^dont think anyone stupid or ignorant. Ia ctualy agree with you. sometimes sides of an argument look to fanatical because there forced to defend there sides and misinformation and misunderstanding occur. unfortunate side effect of internet debates.

[Berugijin]

Well if the egg came first, where did it come from?

Tim

Fact: Chickens hatch from eggs.
Fact: Chickens aren't the only birds that lay eggs.
Fact: Dinosaurs laid eggs.
Fact: The domestic chicken is a direct descendant of the 'Red Junglefowl'.
Fact: Mutations occur.

So we have this population of Red Junglefowls, but they get seperated and both groups end up in different environments. One of these RJ's lays an egg, but a mutation occurs which gives the mutated RJ improved chances of survival (and hence chances of reproducing and spreading his mutant gene).

Then two mutated RJ's get together and cuddle, and the female lays an egg. With a mutation. Out pops a (what we consider today) a chicken.

The answer: the egg came from an ancestor of the chicken where a mutation occured so that whatever popped out can be called a "chicken".

Disclaimer: I'm not a biologist, please correct me if I have an error in my reasoning somewhere...

[Hank]

^^dont think anyone stupid or ignorant. Ia ctualy agree with you. sometimes sides of an argument look to fanatical because there forced to defend there sides and misinformation and misunderstanding occur. unfortunate side effect of internet debates.I don't think you're stupid or ignorant, just unknowledgable on the topic of big bangs. I am too. Anyone without at least a BS in astonomy will be ignorant of the big bang theory. You came across as trying to reject a major theory because it violates a thermodynamic law - when literally tons of people with much more knowledge and talent in the area of astronomy say it's a perfectly valid theory. Can you blame me for thinking you may be unknowledgable on the topic? No insult intended.

Feh, I think this is my last post on this. I'm tired of seeing my name under this inflamatory subject line.

Hank.

[samurai999]

Fact: Chickens hatch from eggs.
Fact: Chickens aren't the only birds that lay eggs.
Fact: Dinosaurs laid eggs.
Fact: The domestic chicken is a direct descendant of the 'Red Junglefowl'.
Fact: Mutations occur.

So we have this population of Red Junglefowls, but they get seperated and both groups end up in different environments. One of these RJ's lays an egg, but a mutation occurs which gives the mutated RJ improved chances of survival (and hence chances of reproducing and spreading his mutant gene).

Then two mutated RJ's get together and cuddle, and the female lays an egg. With a mutation. Out pops a (what we consider today) a chicken.

The answer: the egg came from an ancestor of the chicken where a mutation occured so that whatever popped out can be called a "chicken".

Disclaimer: I'm not a biologist, please correct me if I have an error in my reasoning somewhere...

So where did this "red Junglefowl" come from? Your facts are true leave it be to actual ancestory or evolution, but where did everything originate?

Point is though it didn't need to be this specific, the question bugging scientists for years is exactly that. Which came first? The egg? Well the egg hatches the chicken, but the "chicken" has to lay the egg in order for it to hatch and make a new chicken. Its not called a paradox for nothing..

Tim

[drizzt]

I don't think you're stupid or ignorant, just unknowledgable on the topic of big bangs. I am too. Anyone without at least a BS in astonomy will be ignorant of the big bang theory. You came across as trying to reject a major theory because it violates a thermodynamic law - when literally tons of people with much more knowledge and talent in the area of astronomy say it's a perfectly valid theory. Can you blame me for thinking you may be unknowledgable on the topic? No insult intended.

Feh, I think this is my last post on this. I'm tired of seeing my name under this inflamatory subject line.

Hank.

it violates more than thermodynamic laws but hey i guess im unknowledgable

[Wifenmummy]

this has turn into some places a terrible ground for taking shots at one another..
going by the topic.. i have a picture you all may be interested in.. how bout islam terrorists doing the hitler salut?! now a jew would never do that huh!
http://www.jtf.org/america/america.democratizing.muslims.htm
find it here.. and some other interesting stuff. of course done by the jews, so its very one sided. some interesting stuff in there!
one thing.. if we 'evolved' from slime on a rock how do you explain that we have a conscious? (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=conscious&spell=1) i mean dogs dont have one.. they dont eat a cat and then go oh i wish i didnt eat that cat! the poor thing!.. and if we evolved from being the whole survior of the fittest stuff.. then you will have no problem if i take over your house your money your stuff.. because im the strongest.. you would just have to walk away and drop somewhere.. right?! do you ever feel guilty? do you have morals? (clearly some dont as they have enjoyed being mean & nasty to others) why behave morally if you dont have to answer to God?!
Hisham, thanks for being nice btw ;)

Private Message: You are a complete idiot!
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 28-03-2005, 12:46 PM
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Mr Gokiburi
Join Date: Jul 2002
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You are a complete idiot!
I am really surprised that someone even decided to marry someone as dumb as you. I especially feel sorry for your child, it seems with you providing the education for your child he/she will grow up as stupid as you. How unfortunate. :(
__________________
The 14th successor of the Hiten-Mitsurugi-Ryuu-waza

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/buttons/forward.gif (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/private.php?do=newpm&forward=1&pmid=13555)
(how do u report private messages? how terrible! he didnt even have the guts to insult me out here... i guess he isnt married & not the brightest)

[Wifenmummy]

forgot to add there is no place in the bible about eating babies! i did however do a google on that.. i believe thats the satanic bible your refering to! might want to check facts out first...
LIFE is important to us! As soon as a sperm & egg make contact there is energy and a togetherness which is life! A unborn baby is a living human being, dependant on one person.

[Matt Molloy]

^^ you do realise your not talking to some unedjucated moron right?

Oh Man! The irony, the irony......:laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

[Wifenmummy]

Fact: Chickens hatch from eggs.
Fact: Chickens aren't the only birds that lay eggs.
Fact: Dinosaurs laid eggs.
Fact: The domestic chicken is a direct descendant of the 'Red Junglefowl'.
Fact: Mutations occur.

So we have this population of Red Junglefowls, but they get seperated and both groups end up in different environments. One of these RJ's lays an egg, but a mutation occurs which gives the mutated RJ improved chances of survival (and hence chances of reproducing and spreading his mutant gene).

Then two mutated RJ's get together and cuddle, and the female lays an egg. With a mutation. Out pops a (what we consider today) a chicken.

The answer: the egg came from an ancestor of the chicken where a mutation occured so that whatever popped out can be called a "chicken".

Disclaimer: I'm not a biologist, please correct me if I have an error in my reasoning somewhere...
---
clearly not answering the question.. its impossible for the egg to come first! so this egg just evolved off some slime on a rock too?! right and the reason why all of a sudden things tops evolving is what exactly? why dont aligators have wings now so they can catch flying pigs?! you know since things mutate so easily & rapidly?!!!

[Berugijin]

---
clearly not answering the question.. its impossible for the egg to come first! so this egg just evolved off some slime on a rock too?! right and the reason why all of a sudden things tops evolving is what exactly? why dont aligators have wings now so they can catch flying pigs?! you know since things mutate so easily & rapidly?!!!

Well I don't have all the answers, but clearly you do, they're in the bible! I just used a little bit of common sense. It all depends on the definition of 'egg' really, 'chicken egg' or any sort of egg? I'm not qualified enough and I can only guess how evolution took care of a) raising children externally in an egg or b) raising them inside the uterus. There are parallels ofcourse. One could argue that through a mutation that enabled an animal to carry its young in the uterus they had better survival chances because they couldn't be eaten unlike when they are still in eggs alone in a nest somewhere...

And you do realize that Red Junglefowl didn't just evolve into chickens overnight, right? If there is no evolution, could you please explain to me why we can't find chicken bones next to dinosaur fossils? It must be the almighty lord testing our faith...

Things don't mutate easily and rapidly. Homo sapiens has 24 chromosomes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome#Human_chromosome) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome#Human_chromosome%29), as you can see in that link there is a huge amount of bases that are susceptible to mutation (eg through radiation or just coincidence), also there is the "crossing-over" that happens when homologous chromosomes align during meiosis. These are just a few examples of how and when mutation can occur. For aligators or pigs to grow wings, this would be a process that would take considerable amount of time. That and there are processes in place that actively weed out mutated cells.

http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/spiritualism/id5.html

Read that, paragraph 12, about the stimulated evolution of fruit flies.

Aligators don't have wings because an aligator with wings would not have been the fittest because he wouldn't be able to catch flying pigs as there are none :smiley: Forgive the humorous explanation but I hope it brings the point across.

Welcome to the wonderful world of evolution theory. Please leave your bible at the entrance.

[D'Artagnan]

---why dont aligators have wings now so they can catch flying pigs?!


Bacuse the Pigs would evolve with great big teeth and eat the gators, then the world would be populated by giant ferocious pigs.... with wings..... erm... Yeah! :smoker:

[Berugijin]

So where did this "red Junglefowl" come from? Your facts are true leave it be to actual ancestory or evolution, but where did everything originate?

Point is though it didn't need to be this specific, the question bugging scientists for years is exactly that. Which came first? The egg? Well the egg hatches the chicken, but the "chicken" has to lay the egg in order for it to hatch and make a new chicken. Its not called a paradox for nothing..

Tim

I have found an explanation of someone with a background in biology and it explains it much better than my attempt:

The egg is not assumed to be a chicken egg. In effect this changes the question to: "Which came first a chicken or an egg".

From a purely scientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) point of view this question can be answered quite easily. It is difficult to decide when the egg began as any cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28biology%29) is sometimes called an egg. Let's call the egg the hard shell one, and the chicken the first feather covered animal.

Evolutionary scientists believe the first hard shell egg was the amniotic egg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniotic_egg) laid around 200 million years ago, and was laid by the animal who was the link between amphibians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibians) and reptiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptiles). It was only after this egg that animals could breed away from the sea. Birds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird) would emerge 50 million years after descending from theropod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theropod) dinosaurs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs). The first dinosaur with feathers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feather) was the Archaeopteryx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx).

In this case, the first chicken must have been the mutant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant) offspring of a proto-chicken that laid the first chicken's surrounding egg. That is, unless one defines a chicken egg as an egg which has been laid by a chicken.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_chicken_or_the_egg

[Hisham]

To Wifenmummy.

That site which link you posted is made to spread and fuel the hate and paranoia and demonize the other (not the first one and it won't be the last one), the people that are touched by those kind of websites which are vehicules for extremist ideas like the neo-nazy ones ...etc are the people who live in ignorance and basicly fear the unknown which in this case is islam and muslims in general . You have got to read about the islamic basic concepts at least some of them, and trust me you'll be totally disillusioned, you'll have to go out of your shell no offence and try to find some more objective websites and books, even read books written by the "enemy" also try to meet some muslims, nothing better than knowing your "neighbor".

About the salute thing, a muslim can't be a nazy since the race based ideology of the latter cannot be compatible with islamic values of the first, see if you knew about them you would've laughed at the idiot who's playing with images to despicably manipulate the psyche of weaker minds, it's like saying that an arab is anti-semitic, news flash arabs and hebrews are both semites, even our looks confuse poeple, there's an anecdote about which happened not that long after 9/11 where two jews were escorted back out of a plane because some passenger believed they were typical arabs.

The world is more complicated than what Foxnews like media is throwing to the masses.
Again my respects misses Wifenmummy.

[samurai999]

I have found an explanation of someone with a background in biology and it explains it much better than my attempt:

The egg is not assumed to be a chicken egg. In effect this changes the question to: "Which came first a chicken or an egg".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_chicken_or_the_egg

Dunno but to me, that seems like an assumption. ASSUME... Break it down. In my engineering community, if you want to become all scientific method about it...

If you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

That is purely another viewpoint and speculation of if this circumstance happened. Nothing clear cut or defined. It uses this assumption to say "well if X happened and Y is assumed, then Z must've happened." Also it seems to me that scientists BELIEVE that this egg is the first one ever. As with everything, where is the proof that this is the absolute FIRST chicken egg ever laid? (Gawd this is getting ridiculous) If scientists are looking at this, they will keep questioning it and questioning it again until a FINAL answer is found.

My .02$(US),
Tim

[drizzt]

Oh Man! The irony, the irony......:laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

and this is supposed to mean?

[Mowvran]

[QUOTE=Berugijin]
The egg is not assumed to be a chicken egg. In effect this changes the question to: "Which came first a chicken or an egg".

The egg came first I used to watch "Monkey magic" it explains it all

[Matt Molloy]

and this is supposed to mean?

I'm sure that someone who is not "some unedjucated moron" will have no difficulty in working out what is meant by irony.

You could always try a dictionary if you're really stuck.

Cheers,

Matt.

[D'Artagnan]

I'm sure that someone who is not "some unedjucated moron" will have no difficulty in working out what is meant by irony.
.


Isn't it like goldy and bronzy, just a bit cheaper and less yellowish in colour?

[Matt Molloy]

Isn't it like goldy and bronzy, just a bit cheaper and less yellowish in colour?

Absolutely spot on Baldrick. ;)

I haven't seen that show in years.

Cheers,

Matt.

[D'Artagnan]

Absolutely spot on Baldrick. ;)

I haven't seen that show in years.

Cheers,

Matt.


Worth every penny! (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=srmr&page=title&r=R2&title=95875) :wink:

[Matt Molloy]

Worth every penny! (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=srmr&page=title&r=R2&title=95875) :wink:

Cool! I can become yet poorer.

Black Adder Goes Forth was a favourite. The ending was probably one of the best moments on TV in years.

Cheers,

Matt.

[drizzt]

I'm sure that someone who is not "some unedjucated moron" will have no difficulty in working out what is meant by irony.

You could always try a dictionary if you're really stuck.

Cheers,

Matt.

If I wasnt a nice person i would go on and respond rudely but, its realy not worth my time. Congratulations you have suceeded in trying to inuslt me over an internet forum.....and failed horribly. Honestly man, its a forum, petty insults and jibes just make you look stupid. Get a life or contribute something intelligent to the conversation.

On that note though, this is no longer an intelligent debate, its a......well im probably not allowed to call it what we would call it here so ill leave it at, its a war of egos. One side of the debate is intent on proving there right becasue....wel they think there right. the other side has degenerated into insulting peoples spelling and grammar to make themselves appear more intelligent. I'm gone from this thread and this pointless discussion.

Yes im shure there are grammar and spelling mistakes in that. I dont care in the least bit. You lot are not my proffesors(thank god), and i realy dont care what you think of the way I type.

[Kendoboy]

Proving something doesn't exist is nigh impossible. Prove that the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus don't exist - can't - yet no one over 10 years old believes they exist. What you can say is that there is no evidence for their existence.

Just my 2 cents on proving that things do or do not exist.

Hank.


You A$$hole! not only do I have to put up with a thread which has carried a pointless conflict over to what is the last bastion of freedom on this planet, but now you have to start tearing down my beliefs as well!

Maybe YOU can explain where the gifts come from every year around christmas time marked "from Santa Claus".

Maybe YOU can explain where the eggs come from at easter.

It is worth noting that kris kringle is an acknowledged part of history, and that he is from a long line of a family that believes in giving and generosity. While he is probably not the same guy who delivered the presents at the turn of the century, his namesake; kris kringle the 3rd, seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Also, rabbits are not mammals. Look it up on google or anywhere else. They are part of a group known as 'endomorphs' This is why they can breed with other species, as proved by the cat-rabbit (aka cabbit) that was made famous a decade ago. The modern easter bunny is a result of a careful breeding program that successfully mated a rabbit with a genetically altered goat. This is why all easter eggs are milk chocolate.

So next time any of you think about trying to put down peoples beliefs, try to realize that this is a diverse planet, where anything is possible, with a little respect.

[Wifenmummy]

To Wifenmummy.

That site which link you posted is made to spread and fuel the hate and paranoia and demonize the other (not the first one and it won't be the last one), the people that are touched by those kind of websites which are vehicules for extremist ideas like the neo-nazy ones ...etc are the people who live in ignorance and basicly fear the unknown which in this case is islam and muslims in general . You have got to read about the islamic basic concepts at least some of them, and trust me you'll be totally disillusioned, you'll have to go out of your shell no offence and try to find some more objective websites and books, even read books written by the "enemy" also try to meet some muslims, nothing better than knowing your "neighbor".

About the salute thing, a muslim can't be a nazy since the race based ideology of the latter cannot be compatible with islamic values of the first, see if you knew about them you would've laughed at the idiot who's playing with images to despicably manipulate the psyche of weaker minds, it's like saying that an arab is anti-semitic, news flash arabs and hebrews are both semites, even our looks confuse poeple, there's an anecdote about which happened not that long after 9/11 where two jews were escorted back out of a plane because some passenger believed they were typical arabs.

The world is more complicated than what Foxnews like media is throwing to the masses.
Again my respects misses Wifenmummy.

excuse me?! i said it was a very one sided website! dont attack me! if u have a problem with that site.. tell them.. i found info that you dont like or agree with tough! theres tons of stuff out there you wont like!
someone upset i found muslims doing a nazi salute?! newsflash!! nazis=hate jews & muslims hate jews! see a connection they sypathise with?!

[Berugijin]

Also, rabbits are not mammals. Look it up on google or anywhere else. They are part of a group known as 'endomorphs' This is why they can breed with other species, as proved by the cat-rabbit (aka cabbit) that was made famous a decade ago. The modern easter bunny is a result of a careful breeding program that successfully mated a rabbit with a genetically altered goat. This is why all easter eggs are milk chocolate..

It all makes sense now... All those holes in evolution-theory, it all comes together now!! May I quote you in my thesis?

[Berugijin]

excuse me?! i said it was a very one sided website! dont attack me! if u have a problem with that site.. tell them.. i found info that you dont like or agree with tough! theres tons of stuff out there you wont like!
someone upset i found muslims doing a nazi salute?! newsflash!! nazis=hate jews & muslims hate jews! see a connection they sypathise with?!

You just don't get it do you? You wear the label 'christian' with pride, maybe you should also try living by its ideals? Generalizations like yours are useless, false and serve only to spread more hate. I truly pitty your child as it will be raised by a mother with prejudices towards others because of their faith (or lack thereof) or ethnicity.

One last time, muslims don't hate jews. They might hate members of the Israeli goverment, but they don't hate you. They might dislike you when they hear that you run around claiming their faith allows them to rape non-muslim women though. It's time you grow up, open your mind and stop your xenophobic attitudes. You're not making this world a better place, no, you're actively stimulating hatred between two groups of people, which is a very nice society for your kid to grow up in, don't you agree?

I hope that I have finally (verbally) beaten some sense into you.

[Hisham]

excuse me?! i said it was a very one sided website! dont attack me! if u have a problem with that site.. tell them.. i found info that you dont like or agree with tough! theres tons of stuff out there you wont like!
someone upset i found muslims doing a nazi salute?! newsflash!! nazis=hate jews & muslims hate jews! see a connection they sypathise with?!

And the episode continues, i guess you didn't know that there are Morrocan , algerian, tunisian .....even iranian jews, though many of them left after 1948 for obvious reasons, i have encountered some of the morrocan jews that immigrated to Montreal, Canada and they did so just like any other human-beeing looking for a better life and believe me when i say that the memory of there original country is cherished, easy to see in there bar-mitzvahs and how they celebrate jewish holidays. A sionist is a jew but you can't say that all jews are sionists, i'll let you research that fact.

[Kendoboy]

It all makes sense now... All those holes in evolution-theory, it all comes together now!! May I quote you in my thesis?


You COULD, but you might have a hard time doing better than my distinguished paper on 'The interplay of endomorphic organisms and genetic diversity', which was first published in the New England Journal lof Medecine in 1999, and produced by University of Toronto press in 2001.

[Wifenmummy]

You just don't get it do you? You wear the label 'christian' with pride, maybe you should also try living by its ideals? Generalizations like yours are useless, false and serve only to spread more hate. I truly pitty your child as it will be raised by a mother with prejudices towards others because of their faith (or lack thereof) or ethnicity.

One last time, muslims don't hate jews. They might hate members of the Israeli goverment, but they don't hate you. They might dislike you when they hear that you run around claiming their faith allows them to rape non-muslim women though. It's time you grow up, open your mind and stop your xenophobic attitudes. You're not making this world a better place, no, you're actively stimulating hatred between two groups of people, which is a very nice society for your kid to grow up in, don't you agree?

I hope that I have finally (verbally) beaten some sense into you.

what on earth is your problem? you know im a christian and just because of that you have some sort or fueled hate towards me?
i posted a website i found. purely for your own choice to look at. i DID warn everyone that it was very one-sided. i say again if you have a problem with that website tell the people involved their contact details are on that site if i remember correctly.
You think you know my ideals? i think your judgement of me is wrong.
im not simulating hatred between 2 groups of people! i know no muslims & i know no jews personally... this is a terrible world to bring a child up in, even worse to live in day to day society and the world will never be a nice, pleasant place! what dreamworld are you on?!!!
i am a proud christian! there is nothing wrong with that!
*shakes head* you just dont know when to stop verbally abusing others do you?! taking shots at my child, my parenting, at me and you dont know anything bout me! you know that im a christian and thats it.

[Moshe Shanon]

Hello All,



I don’t think the Anti-Semitic remark that started this tread even deserve dealing with. But as a board member of the Israeli Kendo and Bubo Federation www.kendo.co.il (http://www.kendo.co.il/) I would like to inform you all of some connection to Kendo and Palestinian Jewish conflict.

For some time a group called Budo For Peace http://www.budoforpeace.org/ (http://www.budoforpeace.org/) is active in Israel among Arab and Jewish young martial art students. They organize common summer camps each year. For the last few years the Israeli Kendo federation has been participating in some of their activities.



Best Regards,

Moshe Shanon

=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-==-=--

The views expressed here are private and does not stand the necessarily reflect the Israeli kendo federation views

[drizzt]

what on earth is your problem? you know im a christian and just because of that you have some sort or fueled hate towards me?
i posted a website i found. purely for your own choice to look at. i DID warn everyone that it was very one-sided. i say again if you have a problem with that website tell the people involved their contact details are on that site if i remember correctly.
You think you know my ideals? i think your judgement of me is wrong.
im not simulating hatred between 2 groups of people! i know no muslims & i know no jews personally... this is a terrible world to bring a child up in, even worse to live in day to day society and the world will never be a nice, pleasant place! what dreamworld are you on?!!!
i am a proud christian! there is nothing wrong with that!
*shakes head* you just dont know when to stop verbally abusing others do you?! taking shots at my child, my parenting, at me and you dont know anything bout me! you know that im a christian and thats it.

he thinks he's the source of all knowledge. I know he will attack me for this, because of course, he is right! the best way to deal with him is do the same thing you had to do with isaac....ignore him.(note that was aimed as insult for the tone, and the known fact he attacks every member of the forum who is christian with his "because im right" logic. i never read the posts they were arguing about, and dont plan to!!)

And to the last poster, thank you for posting that, it was definetly interesting

[KhawMengLee]

I don’t think the Anti-Semitic remark that started this tread even deserve dealing with.

Moshe...I don't think the starting remark was meant to be anti-semetic but more against the Israeli government's policy concerning how it deals with the Palestinians. I think that one should understand criticising the Israeli government is not the same as Anti-semitism.

btw...heh, you don't happen to have an eyepatch do you? :wink: (all references to the other famous Moshe intended).

[drizzt]

Moshe...I don't think the starting remark was meant to be anti-semetic but more against the Israeli government's policy concerning how it deals with the Palestinians. I think that one should understand criticising the Israeli government is not the same as Anti-semitism.

btw...heh, you don't happen to have an eyepatch do you? :wink: (all references to the other famous Moshe intended).


you are VERY much right, this was not meant to be an anti-semitic thread, but was an attack on the israeli government. The people on these forums who are obsessed with religion turned it into a religious thing....happens to every single thread started here.

[Paikea]

Moshe...I don't think the starting remark was meant to be anti-semetic but more against the Israeli government's policy concerning how it deals with the Palestinians. I think that one should understand criticising the Israeli government is not the same as Anti-semitism.

btw...heh, you don't happen to have an eyepatch do you? :wink: (all references to the other famous Moshe intended).
This was pretty straight-forwardly anti-semitic to me: "I would have thought that Jews would have learned some kind of compassion towards human beings and suffering, it seems not. Hmmmm…kind of makes you wonder did Hitler know something we did not know about, which was his reason for doing what he did to the Jews?"

If it makes me want to smack someone in the mouth, it's usually racist.

[Mugu]

like i said the war with arabs and jews will not end in my lifetime

and Christians, you forgot that the Arabs are currently Jihading somewhere west or the Christain crusaders in the past? Everybody loves the Buddhists and Taoists, they just sit around and drink tea and meditates. They don't wanna argue... if you aruge with them, they will tell you a story or a phase that will confuse the freck outta you than you're too busy thinking and you'll just shut up.

I can't say anything to really helpful to this thread because my boyfriend is Israeli, my super best friend is Arab, and I live in America. Good luck to you all arguing who rules the land.