Question to anyone who's watched World Champs Semifinals

[sminki]

I've just finished watching it for the third time and every time I watch it, I cannot help but to think the hiki-doh which Lim Kun Bai had on Sato Hiromitsu was VALID. Anyone agrees/disagrees? Also, the tie-breaking men point which Sato Hiromitsu had on Lim Kun Bai was in fact blocked by Lim Kun Bai's shinai and Lim Kun Bai's kaeshi doh was a better strike (except Lim Kun Bai basically took away the point himself by not showing zanshin).

I just can't figure out why the shimpans made a call to not give the hiki-doh point. Any thoughts??????

[PhilMcLaughlin]

I guess its what the judges saw / didnt see and decided to score / not score - The BKA are requiring us to study refereeing these days and I have to say that the sheer speed of a lot of the cuts just beat me - but thats why the wkc judges are carefully selected

For my money that was by far and away the best match of the day - much better than the final and I think the Lim was very unlucky

cest la vie

[Nishi]

I feel most of the judging i have seen this year in the u.k. has been weak to say the least. But I im glad to see the BKA taking actions towards improving the judging in the U.K.... There have been many good fighters robbed this year of due recognition. :spchless:

[jmarsten]

Yes the view is much clearer from the sidelines especially when you don't actually have to raise a flag. Further having the video to review really helps, it is so much easier to make correct decision on strikes that happen in 100ths of a second then relying on your eyes.
There was more hiki waza and tsuki taken at the 12th WKC then I have ever seen before. This is a very positive change since when most of those shimpan were learning their trade hiki waza had to be absolutely perfect to warrent awarding a point. Since then at the IKF seminars they have encouraged people to take hiki waza the same as forward waza. Over time, people will get used to calling them and the old predjudices against hiki waza will fade away.
However until the shipan learn to walk on water the best way to avoid bad calls is to not enter taikai.

[KATSUJIN]

well....personally...i think that hiki-do should have been a ippon but like it has been already said...easier for us to tell becos we are not feeling the pressure of giving the point and we are at the side where everyone is watching the match than us....:D

[PhilMcLaughlin]

I feel most of the judging i have seen this year in the u.k. has been weak to say the least. But I im glad to see the BKA taking actions towards improving the judging in the U.K.... There have been many good fighters robbed this year of due recognition. :spchless:

Dave the killer question is would you be confident to judge it yourself and get it right all the time ?

Hitting the other guy with a stick is not the same as making a valid cut

here in lies our problem in taikai - its not a simple matter of bashing the other guy but of getting all of the required elements together in an acceptable form - very subjective and very difficult from the few tries ive had at doing it. I certainly wouldnt want the hassle of being a wkc shimpan, especially if video reveals that call you had to make in 100th of a second was the wrong one :-)

theres also an intresting point here in that most of the people claiming injustice at the hands of the judges are more junior grades (by definition our technique isnt that good to begin with) commenting on decisions made by much more senior grades.

This is a dodgy area to get in to because you cant rely on seniors to guide your kendo development in a sempai kohai relationship and then trash them for disagreeing on that 'killer point' you made in shiai. It can get very divisive

On the other hand not even the senior grades are perfect ;-)

cheers

[Nishi]

Hitting the other guy with a stick is not the same as making a valid cut


Hi Phil, this has always been a dodgy topic, agreed. The amount of sashi-men scored at a shiai vs the full blooded men-cut topic confuses the hell out of me at times. But lets face it, we score a valid hit in a shiai when the "stick" hits the predetermined target without obstacle, and with "some" ki-ken-tai present, followed by "substantial" zanshin (I feel like a lawyer....lol!!)

As for the killer question, i'd be happy to get it right half the time :D But when i wanted to learn to cut men, i trained, and am still training. I do this for myself and to better my kendo, and show my sensei that i have listened, and his hardwork is not in vain. I expect those who are training to be shinpan (my seniors) to return the effort (not to say that there not). As i mentioned, i am glad steps are being taken to improve the refereeing, and i think more local taikai will assist both parties in this endevour.

I think the Korean player won and im sure i couldnt have judged that bout with my experience.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think the Korean player won and im sure i couldnt have judged that bout with my experience.
It's sure a different experience when you're holding the flags (not that I'm qualified to judge at WKC level, just in general). Holding shiai practice from time to time in your club and letting the seniors judge is a good experience for both sides.

[jmarsten]

One thing I'm quite certain of, that after 10 years of practice I was far more confident about everything than I am now after more than 30 years of practice.
If you look at how the points were called at the 12WKC almost all were unanimous which is a very good indicator that all of the shimpan were on the same page and holding to the same standard.
What I thought was a point as a kyu and what I think is a point now are quite different. Still the system is still very subjective so the way to work around that is be much better than your competitor. Don't let judges decide, but only affirm rather than decide on your strikes. Otherwise just go back and train smarter. Doing the same thing over and over incorrectly only makes you very good at doing it incorrectly.

[cpt_Picard]

I've just finished watching it for the third time and every time I watch it, I cannot help but to think the hiki-doh which Lim Kun Bai had on Sato Hiromitsu was VALID. Anyone agrees/disagrees? Also, the tie-breaking men point which Sato Hiromitsu had on Lim Kun Bai was in fact blocked by Lim Kun Bai's shinai and Lim Kun Bai's kaeshi doh was a better strike (except Lim Kun Bai basically took away the point himself by not showing zanshin).

I just can't figure out why the shimpans made a call to not give the hiki-doh point. Any thoughts??????


Yeah. You are right. I watched it 3 times. Sato Hiromistsu did not hit men at all. His do was kind of nice, although probably not enough for ippon (no zanshin). One ref (Gomez) was rising white, while two others red, making Sato winner for nice, however blocked men-cut :-((( If anyone of you has ftp with about 20 MB free, I can upload there a video with this situation. For now see the picture http://www.kendofotky.wz.cz/wkc03/imagepages/Image6.html

[PhilMcLaughlin]

It's sure a different experience when you're holding the flags (not that I'm qualified to judge at WKC level, just in general). Holding shiai practice from time to time in your club and letting the seniors judge is a good experience for both sides.

Hi Neil, the BKA have instigated a refereeing programme - twofold benefit it that competotors get to see what the refs are supposed to be doing and teh refs get earache for not doing it very well (well ok that might be personal experience ;-)

It becomes illuminating to stand out there and judge and then have your judgement ripped apart ! typically not scoring valid strikes or scoring worng ones

like i said even looking from the sides at wkc some of the action was too fast for me to see what had happened so I couldt really complain (even when the scores go against me)

my sympathis go to the judges - i wouldnt like to do it at that level

[PhilMcLaughlin]

[QUOTE=PhilMcLaughlin]Hi Neil, the BKA have instigated a refereeing programme - twofold benefit it that competotors get to see what the refs are supposed to be doing and teh refs get earache for not doing it very well (well ok that might be personal experience ;-)



OOPs i deleted a paragraph by mistake :-

Its also valuable for those taking part in shiai to see exactly why a point was awarded or not - ie if you want to be good at shiai then you should have in mind what constitutes a good attack in shiai conditions

By preferece id like to see good solid basic technique rather than shiai oriented technique (but then thats probably because i can more or less do the former and rarely the latter :-) but in reality if its legal and acceptable to the judges then its valid (typically im thinking of tippy techniques that are judged good enough for the occaision / level of competitors etc but arent particulalry wonderful per se)

cheers

[kendokamax]

I never been doing judge, but wouldnt high level competition be easier to judge than lower level kendo?

I mean ippon gets so much cleaner at that level.

I have seen one of the team japan shiai practice, before the WKC,
they played some of our university's players. Was freaking impressive.

They were too strong, Our team lost 15 ippons vs 1..

[Neil Gendzwill]

I never been doing judge, but wouldnt high level competition be easier to judge than lower level kendo?

The sheer speed of it makes it very hard to judge. Unless you are able to compete at that level (or once did) it's difficult to catch those points. You have to understand what is likely to happen so you can anticipate it and see it, then immediately give a clear judgement. Much easier to do from the sidelines, or at home with a rewind button. This is why the IKF requires potential WKC shimpan to have an active practice and demonstrate that at the qualifying seminars.

Judging lower level shiai has it's own problems, as in what exactly are you willing to take for a point. You can't hold them to the same standard as you would higher-level competitors or nothing will ever get scored. So you often resort to letting some stuff slide. For example take the standard missed-kote point: you might think the judges didn't see that the kote was missed but if the timing was really nice and the follow-through was good but the contact was a little off-target (or light), the judge might raise his flag even though he knows it's a miss. Now the guy who lost the point is mad because he didn't feel that kote like he should, but from the judges POV the lower-level guy really showed a good understanding of the opportunity and did most of the stuff right, so he gets the point.

[Nishi]

Mabye they need "the big screen" for kendo shiai like they do in rugby league....you know, where the ref saw the point, but just wants to be sure before formally giving it.....just a humorous suggestion to lighten the atmosphere :D

[jmarsten]

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[jmarsten]

The bottom line that all competitors need to remember "and obey the judges decision as final" That applies to all the competitors not just the one giving the oath on everyone's behalf. I have never had anyone stop the match and ask me to recind a point they received even thought they knew it was a bad call. Everyone just takes what ever points they can get and moves on.
I have heard plenty of whinning on the part of individuals who have had the call go against them as if they never had a bad call go for them.
I can tolorate bad judging in a tournament as long as its uniformly bad and therefore fair to all. What bothers me is if half the judges are really competent and the other half not, then the tournament is not fair.
One of the things taught at the WKC judging seminars is that the points need to make sense to the competitors and audience. When this does not happen then people feel the judging is unfair.
If you want a real judging challenge try the 9 and under division where none of them usually can make a point. Should every match then be hantei? By the time you finished the division would have to change to 10 & under.
Conversely you have certain competitors who believe everything they hit is a point. I almost handed the flags to one individual and said "here call your own points since your such an expert". Fortunately that person has matured and never acts like that now.
The only thing I find the video useful for is analysing the technique, not seeing if the judges may have errored. What I want to see is why they called the point.
The riai, timing, and seme.

[samurai999]

Don't let judges decide, but only affirm rather than decide on your strikes. Otherwise just go back and train smarter. Doing the same thing over and over incorrectly only makes you very good at doing it incorrectly.

Damn straight. Though judges are technically sensei as well, they can't be perfect. In the heat of the moment in a match, they miss things. Although i have seen REALLY questionable calls in the past, you have to have confidence in yourself that the strike that you did was correct. Otherwise, you'd be letting the judges determine what is right or wrong. The time to determine whether something is right or wrong is in the dojo when you're practicing.

Tim

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Mabye they need "the big screen" for kendo shiai like they do in rugby league....you know, where the ref saw the point, but just wants to be sure before formally giving it.....just a humorous suggestion to lighten the atmosphere :D

On the same vein then perhaps DEFRA could modify 'hawkeye' to record a cut ? - mind you in some cases theyd only need a daguerrotype (sp?)

[Goomba]

Mabye they need "the big screen" for kendo shiai like they do in rugby league....you know, where the ref saw the point, but just wants to be sure before formally giving it.....just a humorous suggestion to lighten the atmosphere :D

Big screen? No way! Too expensive. You can decide matches for 1/1000th the price ($ .25 U.S. or 50 euro cents, or 10 pence) . Just have the two kenshi enter the shiaijo, and sonkyo (sp), then the have the head shinpan and listen for "Call it in the air" as the coin flips.

Tournaments will be done in 1/10th the time and everyone will have a 50/50 chance of playing for thier country at the World Kendo Championships. :D

Thats my two euro cents, and it's late.

[AlexM]

It's a bit late for me to be talking about the WKC but I just saw the tape (so sue me for not going to Scotland).

I mentionned in another thread that the Korean should have made the finals in individual matches. So here are just a few impressions I got out of the e-bogu tape I saw...

-The judging was not bad but it was clear that some of the judges held all the competitors to a higher standard for ippon than the Japanese (and some other kendo "powers" such as Korea, the US and Canada). This is something that will only go away when the judges stop being worried about having the Japanese lose matches. I've been told that the Japanese feel uncomfortable about this because it makes them look bad more than anyone else.

-Tenken's (Chinen) kote rocks!

-Team Canada looked bad against the US... really bad.

-I like the Yangs.

-I think I could make Team Aruba.

-The standrad for what is a good dou-uchi (gyaku or normal) should be cleared up. There seemed to be inconsistency about this.

-kote-men seems to work alot better than I thought.

-Dallas' nickle defence scheme won't match up well against Philadelphia this week... oh wait, wrong list. :D

-My last thought is that the Queen of England wears truly hideous hats.

[JSchmidt]

-The judging was not bad but it was clear that some of the judges held all the competitors to a higher standard for ippon than the Japanese (and some other kendo "powers" such as Korea, the US and Canada). This is something that will only go away when the judges stop being worried about having the Japanese lose matches. I've been told that the Japanese feel uncomfortable about this because it makes them look bad more than anyone else.

I had the same impression after watching the tapes. There was a couple of good cuts I would have paid against Japan/Korea, but none of the judges even flinched.
Also, comparing the judging from the All Japan Police Taikai with WKC, it appeared far easier to score hiki-waza in the WKC...the AJPT lived up to what I've been told was a valid ippon from hiki-waza..

Jakob