Out-ranking your sensie....

[Nishi]

Hi there.....

I was curious...I have noticed during my training some sensie that have taken two decades to achieve yondan or even sandan. At this rate a sensie could be out-graded by a student who trained harder and tested at every oppurtunity, this could cause some funny seating arrangements in the dojo.

Has anybody heard of such a case? Do you think its right a student should not be allowed to grade for fear of outranking sensie? And who should decide when you grade?

[KhawMengLee]

Hmmnn...well, at my dojo in Malaysia our Sensei is a Godan and once in a while the Rokudan from the japan school comes to train but out of respect seats to my senseis left, even when offered the right.

[mingshi]

Maybe it's just another example to show that ranking is just a statistic, besides it being a piece of paper?

[LNGUYEN]

You are outranked you Senseis, so what, does it mean we respect them less? A Sensei is a Sensei. Let say a Hachidan master probably didn't have Hachidan Sensei from begining. Does it mean his Sensei has to bow to him? Conclusion Senseis will be happy if you outranked them later but they are still expect your respect from you.

[Nishi]

Agreed LNGUYEN, i suppose the question arises then, if gradings are superficial( as Mingshi suggested) why do we do it?

Personally, my last grading has been a great benifit to me, because i pushed myself to a new level, i feel this is good for my kendo overall, and i use goal setting to place myself in these positions knowing the (usual) benifits i incure, some people crack under deadlines, i seem to perform.

You should see some of the goals ive set for myself :laugh: but even if i dont achieve them, im still moving forward, ive learnt this from kendo.

[kendomushi]

Coming to outrank your sensei is not an issue.
When we begin kendo, we hold everything our sensei teaches us as gospel, sacred, inviolable truth.
Then we eventually see that not everything sensei says works for us and that others have equally valid teachings.
And finally, no matter if our rank exceeds our sensei, we begin to form our own kendo, our own path, our own understanding.
This separates us from sensei, but should never lessen our respect for sensei and his teaching.

[Charlie]

...if gradings are superficial( as Mingshi suggested) why do we do it?

So we know how to organize ourselves into different levels in the dojo and at tournaments.

[chidokan]

I would be over the moon if my students were better than me...it would mean I am a good teacher!!! :D
I think you may be surprised at the answers your sensei give on this, please ask them...
My objective is to pass all my knowledge on and hope that my students pass mein skill level in future, hopefully they do as good a job, their students improve etc etc etc..
I have seen local dojos improve since the 1970's, as the teachers drag their students up the 'knowledge tree'. From maybe two dojos with a couple of 1st/ 2nd dan between them, we now have 5/6/7th dan teachers over ten dojos. This is giving us a good base for future improvement...just keep trying to improve, you are the next teacher in your area.
If this shocks you, think of being in my position. My teacher is extrememly old (91 this year) and expects me, along with a few of my friends, to continue his teachings when he dies. I can no longer go and ask questions and can only answer my students to the best of my knowledge after he dies. So who do I ask???? Now that is frightening...

Tim Hamilton

[Bunkai]

I believe as i was taught by my Shihan, if by way of hard work and training I manage to out grade him, or the other senseis of my Dojo, it is respectful to retain the usual seating manner.

If you happen to out grade your teacher, perhaps in that situation you would already be considered a teacher at the Dojo you attend, or atleast be given some of the responisibilties of running the Dojo.

Bunkai

[jmarsten]

I have practiced at dojo in Japan where the sensei sit by age and not rank. The oldest sits at the head of the line. When Imamura sensei (7D) was at practice, Kamei sensei(8D) sat below him. Kamei sensei insisted on it.
I hope everyone of my students passes me then I have really done my job. I can't imagine any of them even considering sitting above me, they would be so embarrased if I told them to. Thats like kicking your father out from the head of the table at the family dinner.

[Halcyon]

let's not forget that the literal translation of sensei is "born before," but simply means "teacher."

going a step further, even with sempai, if they are younger than me (which is often the case for me since i started kendo/iaido relatively late in life), they are still my teachers.

even in the unlikely case that i would eventually outrank one of them, i would indeed follow marsten sensei's advice and insist they take a "higher" seat than myself. it would just be the proper and polite thing to do.

of course, there's some nuance and wiggle room in these situations, especially when the sempai is very close in rank to you, and you happen to surpass them in rank, and you're older than them. but you can't go wrong by being humble and gracious. it's not like you're trying to climb wrungs on a ladder. there's a saying common in east asian countries: when a blade of rice ripens, it bows its head.

[junkyman]

My sensei says that if you pass him up then he did his job correctly.

[IsahoNaginata]

Not to get esoteric or anything but: We stand on the shoulders of those who have taught us. As such we should always acknowledge our teachers as the foundation of where we stand today in our respective arts. Should we surpass our teachers we must maintain dignity, thankfulness and respect. Also keep in mind that someday another student may be standing on your shoulders too.