Datotsu

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
I know its a bit of a pain, but could someone please list the valid targets for Naginata. It would be a great help if you could say wether or not the ishizuki or the kissaki is used for each target.

I ask because various sources state differing things. As there is no official body representing Naginata in Britain, I turn to the learned scholors on this forum for guidance.

Many thanks,
Paul :ermm:

[nagiwiz]

As far as I know Kissaki is used for all Datotsu, and ishizuki is only used for Sune. I'm not sure if it's still valid for tsuki (I know that is was). Datotsu are: Men,sokumen,tsuki,kote,dou,sune (soto and uchi)

[emitbrownne]

As far as I know Kissaki is used for all Datotsu, and ishizuki is only used for Sune. I'm not sure if it's still valid for tsuki (I know that is was). Datotsu are: Men,sokumen,tsuki,kote,dou,sune (soto and uchi)

Y'see... I have been told/read that you may not use the ishizuki on the sune but it is fine for a strike to the Do, and for Tsuki... This is why I'm after the opinion of everybody... :wink:

If you use the ishizuki on the sune, can you strike as a thrust, as well as sweep the leg? or am I just being crazy?

Thanks nagiwiz

Paul

[nagiwiz]

Its not a thrust. It usually comes from being in close and striking as you move back.
also I've never seen, or heard of it being used for Dou, although it could be valid, i can't see what the starting Kamae would be????

[emitbrownne]

I've never seen, or heard of it being used for Dou, although it could be valid, i can't see what the starting Kamae would be????

From what I've been told.. one way to do it is :
you are in Waki-gamae and Tsuki the side of your opponents Do.

I'm still searching for the answers though :)

[nagiwiz]

It's VERY hard to Tsuki at the side of Dou in Shiai. Sounds logical though.
In reality most judges wouldn't score it though (in Japan I mean) as you would need to perform it perfectly,and your opponent isn't going to allow that.

[etherknot]

Well I've been told that you can use the ishizuki if for some unimaginable reason you get into tsuba-zari with someone (!). You can like swat their sune with the ishizuki. It won't count (and the use is not advocated) but you might trip them up a little enough to get a second to scoot away to a safe distance.

As for tsuki to do from waki (ala later kata); I think it would be cool to see someone try it. But it's so slow! If you took waki up against someone and made that pre-tsuki stance I think they would probably know something was coming and already be all over you. :)

[Phil]

Ichizuki sune only ! no do no tsuki!(it was allowed)
Only against kendo , tsuki is allowed with the ichizuki

Be careful when you do the sune , it s realy painful when it s on the protection and really (but really) painful when it s out of it (so on the tsuki I cant imagine OUCH! ;) )
The Americans used ichizuki sune on the world championship it sounded really good , I don t know why they didn’t receive a flag…(?)

Phil

[xvikingx]

Phil, just like yaichigai-sune and reverse sune strikes, an ishizuki-sune will have to be absolutely flawless for the judges to take it. I know they look great but they are just not taken.

ishizuki is only used for sune in shiai. You used to be able to tsuki with it, but since its way to dangerous (and pointless) they got rid of it. They only time you tsuki the do is in shikake-oji. Thats it.

[Phil]

Phil, just like yaichigai-sune and reverse sune strikes, an ishizuki-sune will have to be absolutely flawless for the judges to take it. I know they look great but they are just not taken.

ishizuki is only used for sune in shiai. You used to be able to tsuki with it, but since its way to dangerous (and pointless) they got rid of it. They only time you tsuki the do is in shikake-oji. Thats it.

i never saw i flag for it... :((: quite sad when it look so nice...

Phil

[xvikingx]

i never saw i flag for it... :((: quite sad when it look so nice...

Phil

:down: I agree. Same thing with sune cuts from wakigamae, the Belgiuns did that cut very well. Unfortunately they never take them. Then again I have never done any shinpan work. Its really easy to sit on the sidelines and say this. If your out on the floor, a bad call can cost someone their match.

[Nagi David]

let's make it clear, as you're not all talking about Atarashi Naginata.
The ichizuki sune is a valid strike in gi geiko or shiai in Atarashi Naginata.
And it's only valid if the fighter move his body properly, if the distance is good, and one important thing that lots of people forget; the naginata must be almost horizontal. Lots of people try to do an ichizuki sune after an asso men and keep the same incline of the naginata, which means, way to much vertical.
Of course it makes a beautiful noise, but a good shimpan should pay attention to the position of the body, the overall movement and the strike itself more than the sound that it makes.

I have seen one sune ichizuki accorded by shimpan in 1995, at the team tournament of the world championship. Kevin Saxton made it on Wataru Suzuki.

[hamish]

Technically, you can't score sune with the ishizuki per se, as this is actually only the tip of the e-bu (shaft). You must strike with the e-bu's monouchi, which is the same distance from the ishizuki as the monouchi on the ha-bu (blade) is from the kissaki.

I've scored a couple of these e-sune in tournaments here in Japan before, and as Nagi David mentions above, your body positioning is very important, that and the requirement to strike with the correct part of the e-bu and show correct zanshin makes it a tricky point to get.

Having said that, it's a very important one to drill, particularly the 1-2 strike - strike with the e-bu (this can be a proper strike to the sune, or an attack on your opponent's weapon) and then at the proper distance swing the weapon back and strike a normal sune with the ha-bu. It really works the change from one side to the other and then back again.

Hamish

[Kapplow]

So is sune(kissaki) from waki legit?

[Dragon Ninja]

Depending on the country, the rules differ.

The INF banned ishizuki TSUKI. However, the U.S. made it legal for only U.S. shiais. Issizuki SUNE is allowed. I don't think isshizuki do is allowed because it's the same thing as doing an isshizuki tsuki, except not to the throat(inkou).

Kisaki sune from any kamae(including wakigamae) is allowed. You can also use koryu moves in shiai.

[paty.]

So is sune(kissaki) from waki legit?

Yeah, but it's kinda too slow. If you're using it as purely shikake waza there's much better alternatives. I normaly use it in oji waza (ie e-harai to waki sune).

[Kapplow]

Yeah, but it's kinda too slow. If you're using it as purely shikake waza there's much better alternatives. I normaly use it in oji waza (ie e-harai to waki sune).

I hit my sempai with it really good last practice. It was an oji waza, I stepped back as he made his cut and landed waki sune. He stopped the match and told me that wasnt a valid strike. But Ive seen Phil do it many times in videos. Thats why I used it. Good suprise attack. Just wanted to double check that you can do waki sune.

[Nagi David]

Waki Sune is a valid strike as well as jodan sune, gedan sune, chudan sune or hasso sune as long as you involve your body. You won't see a lot of waki sune from the japanese fighters because it is to slow for their way of fighting.

[BritishNagAssoc]

wether or not the ishizuki or the kissaki is used for each target

emitbrownne, if I may call you that. What sort of level Naginata are you doing in Grt.Manchester to permit you to do ishizuki tsuki on any body part (but yes to sune granted) ??

no official body representing Naginata in Britain,

You are welcome to join us in London but please bring your own stick as we are now running out because classes can be quite full on saturdays.

And email us because we're going to be canvasing names for a weekend seminar this autumn (we hope) following our attendance at INF Stockholm seminar, not least there is a list of people from around the country who want to get to grips with Naginata and the 5 kata (8 if you know the 5 first already) as that's what people want to leave with at least "knowing" (read that: not necessarily doing perfectly) but certainly having in the muscle memory the forms. Do correct me if you are on your own initiative running a naginata club, or whether you are a lone student.

It is disheartening to hear after all the work we're putting in, you feel there is no one band of people who are trying to get to grips and establishing naginata, and support individuals such as yourself who may or may not have a pure naginata dojo (as opposed to dojo who practices naginata, koryu or otherwise). :hurt: If you're really practicing the level that employs all the advice on this thread, then we are to be impressed.

to the learned scholors

However that said, back to the debate - do turn to the learned scholars - (well done everyone) - they do know more than us, and we're humble in that fact.

We'd like to see you, and in friendship, not to judge if you're ready for doing ishizuki tsuki... :devious:

exec@naginata.org.uk

[emitbrownne]

Hello BritishNagAssoc,

If you look at the first post in this thread, it was made in 2003 when there was no official organisation.

As to my level.. at the time I was ungraded in Naginata.. and I still have no grade.
I practiced The Tsuki's, because no-one said I couldnt, and the books I read (yep I learned from books and vids folk, and of course by Fencing with Kendoka) said it was a legal target, even showing the move in the kata. Hence my asking here.

Thanks for the invite but I would struggle to fit the time in for trips to London from Manchester at the moment as I'm currently getting ready to move house.

My next step is to grade in Kendo. My Sensei says I have to get off my lazy arse (Just kidding Mark).

Thanks again for the interest

Paulo

P.s I'll try and get the email sorted out on Monday, as there are a few people at my Dojo who've seen me fence or just seen the naginata, said wow and I believe would be interested in starting Naginata.

[xvikingx]

Good suprise attack.

I know I have said this many times in the past but I just can't help it. When I see someone go into waki (which I've never seen since I came to Japan) the first thing I think is 'here comes sune'. If it's not and they go for kote or men you have pleanty of time to hit their men or sune first, or block/ dodge if they are quick about it. I see no reason to go all the way into waki when you can easily get sune from hasso or chudan.
On the other hand I love the way it looks.:happy:

[Bruce Mitchell]

So is sune(kissaki) from waki legit?
Sune can be be done from numerous kamae. However, as hamish mentioned above, you score by cutting with the monouchi of the ha-bu, not the kissaki. Both the e-bu and the ha-bu have a monouchi.

As far as ishizuki-tsuki, as the person who spearheaded the campaign to bring it back here in the US, I am now campaigning to "beef" up the tsuki-dare on the men (the current best option is buying an insert http://www.eguchi.net/M7_tsuki.jpg)

I will also be looking into adding additional padding to the naginata-ishizuki, like the padded tips used in some forms of sojutsu that have shiai-geko.

xvikingx, of course, if your level of naginata is low enough then ishizuki-tsuki is pointless. If that's what you really think then it's too bad you weren't around years ago to save all of those naginata hanshi the time they wasted on learning and using it. :rolleyes:

[xvikingx]

xvikingx, of course, if your level of naginata is low enough then ishizuki-tsuki is pointless. If that's what you really think then it's too bad you weren't around years ago to save all of those naginata hanshi the time they wasted on learning and using it. :rolleyes:

Well excuse me Bruce, obiviously your level of naginata is so high that it has eclipsed my OPINION.
Funny, you were not such a condescending jerk in person. Then again the internet gives people balls they never knew they had.

[Bruce Mitchell]

[QUOTE=xvikingx]Well excuse me Bruce, obiviously your level of naginata is so high that it has eclipsed my OPINION.
It's not that my level in naginata is so high, it's just that the opinion that you expressed was not only harsh, but factually inaccurate. You can make a strong arguement, or opinion, about the safety of ishizuki-tsuki and get a level headed counter point in return. But the statement that you made was that the technique is pointless. What did you expect?

Funny, you were not such a condescending jerk in person. We probably just didn't spend enough time together :wink:Then again the internet gives people balls they never knew they had. On the other hand, I do have enough balls to identify myself on a public forum:cool:

[xvikingx]

What did you expect?
Well I didn't expect you to have a hissy fit about your favorite move, that's for sure. Question, why is it I am not entitled to feel that ishizuki tsuki in useless to my naginata, but I can say the same thing about waki sune/men/kote and that's all right with you? Are you selective about how I may think?
On the other hand, I do have enough balls to identify myself on a public forum:cool:
Apparently you didn't notice my signature. If you have anymore beef with me please PM me and quick hijacking the thread.

[Kapplow]

I know I have said this many times in the past but I just can't help it. When I see someone go into waki (which I've never seen since I came to Japan) the first thing I think is 'here comes sune'. If it's not and they go for kote or men you have pleanty of time to hit their men or sune first, or block/ dodge if they are quick about it. I see no reason to go all the way into waki when you can easily get sune from hasso or chudan.
On the other hand I love the way it looks.:happy:

My waki sune was a suprise because my sempai has only been doing it for a year and I have only been doing it for about 10 months. Just beginners having fun.

[xvikingx]

My waki sune was a suprise because my sempai has only been doing it for a year and I have only been doing it for about 10 months. Just beginners having fun.

Nothing wrong with that. I am not trying to knock you. Do you study with Leslie Williams?

[xvikingx]

When did ishizuki tsuki become legal in the USNF? What kind of process did you have to go through to accomplish that? I imagine there must have been some noise from the INF.
I am all for more dotatsu. Sosnowski sent me a pre-war naginata book to translate and it was incredible to see what was legal then.

[Kapplow]

Nothing wrong with that. I am not trying to knock you. Do you study with Leslie Williams?

Yes she is my sensei. Incredible person with infinite patience. I'm a slow learner.

[emitbrownne]

Sosnowski sent me a pre-war naginata book to translate and it was incredible to see what was legal then.

Just to sidetrack a bit, could you please tell us what these were.. Just curious :)

[xvikingx]

Unfortunately my computer crapped out on me and I lost it and the translation I made. Otherwise I would just send it to you. If I recall correctly besides the current dotatsu there was another part of the kote that was valid, targets on the tare, men-dare, ishizuki to the do(left, right, & center), ishizuki to the nodo, and mune..... I could be mistaken, because I have not looked at it in a year and a half.
It was a son-a-bitch to translate because it was full of kanji that isn't used anymore. I'd ask my wife (Japanese) and she was stumped. That was the most interesting part about the book though. It was amazing to see how much the language has changed is less than a hundred years.
Maybe if Sosnowski is reading this he would be kind enough to send it to me again:D

[xvikingx]

Yeah, she is a super nice lady. I hope she is doing well. Tell her I say hi, if she remembers me.

[emitbrownne]

If I recall correctly besides the current dotatsu there was another part of the kote that was valid, targets on the tare, men-dare, ishizuki to the do(left, right, & center), ishizuki to the nodo, and mune.....
Thanks for the speedy reply.

why do you think they reduced the targets?

Maybe the usual standardisation, saftey and to make judging easier??

Paulo

[xvikingx]

Thanks for the speedy reply.

why do you think they reduced the targets?

Maybe the usual standardisation, saftey and to make judging easier??

Paulo

Good question. It's probably a mix of things. I imagine after the ban on budo was lifted there was a lot of reformation. I would assume safety also played a role. I think the good doctor would be better at answering this than I would.

[Hughes]

Hi guys,

In France, currently, in competition shiaï are "valid":

With Ha-bu mono-uchi:
-Shomen
-Soku-Men
-Kote
-Sune

With E-bu mono-uchi:
-Sune

Any appliable kamae (saying that I mean that Hasso->shomen would be hard to discriminate!) is a valid start, but that is from what I know so... Waki-sune is valid... if it lands... and CUTS!

Like Phil mentionned, there is unoffical (and unwritten) agreement that Kendoka can swallow some ichizuki nodo tsuki in isshujiai . But Isshujiai is the field of experiment! ;) We saw some done from Jodan no kamae.