Jiki Shinkage ryu [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

nagiwiz

08-08-2003, 12:28 AM

As I Only just started a couple of weeks ago I haven't actually done any of the kata yet. Our training session is just before our regular class so it's really easy to forget the Koryu stuff from one week to the next.
I do know that all the basic kata are Naginata against sword, and that occasionally the naginata is dropped (in favour of the tanto) part way through the kata. I was also told that there are more advanced kata involving other weapons.
The Naginata itself is a few inches shorter than the Atarashi naginata, which means that the grip is much nearer the ishizuki. And basic chudan kamae has the kissaki pointed at the opponents eyes rather than mizouchi (solar plexus). Jogeburi is done slightly higher too and uses more wrist action than elbow movement as both hands are brought together during the upswing then separated during the down swing.

It's hard to describe with no way of actually showing the moves though.
When I learn more I'll try to post again.

P.s.
As far as Rachel and I know I'm the first British Naginata shodan, If anyone knows otherwise please let me know.

Will Schutt

12-08-2003, 03:48 AM

There is some info on Koryu.com in Ellis Amdur's article Women Warriors of Japan (http://www.koryu.com/library/wwj1.html) (excerpted from his book Old School).

The article describes the development of both Tendo-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu naginata.

-Will Schutt

nagiwiz

26-08-2003, 10:59 PM

I was given this website by my Sensei today
http://www.jikishin-naginata.jp/
It's all in Japanese unfortunately (as my Japanese isn't that good yet)
However it does show some video clips of Jikishin kage ryu

mingshi

27-08-2003, 02:53 AM

Nice stuff~! I like the Enbu clip #2 with dropping Naginata and drawing wakizashi. Well done, Tom!!

The site simply said Jiki Shikage Ryu is characterized by having Kowaki-no-kamae and Kuruma-kaeshi... I would like to ask, why Mizu-kuruma (as featured in clip #1) of Jiki Shikage Ryu is not used in Atarashii Naginata? (that... or, the only thing I heard when they refer to Furikaeshi, is actually only Kaze-kuruma).

I have a vintage copy of "Illustrated Coach Naginata" by Sonobe Shigehachi (Jiki Shikage 26th Soke). In their Furikaeshi section both Mizu and Kaze Kuruma are introduced. But in the modern ZNNR one Furikaeshi is just, well, Furikaeshi...

:confused:

xvikingx

27-08-2003, 09:55 AM

Mingshi I dont understand.... although I can only see her from the front, the only difference I can see between what is being performed in clip #1 and furikaeshi during jougeburi, is that she finishes her cut at men level. Can you elaborate please?

xvikingx

27-08-2003, 09:56 AM

Nagiwiz, thanks. Good stuff.

mingshi

27-08-2003, 11:16 PM

the only difference I can see between what is being performed in clip #1 and furikaeshi during jougeburi, is that she finishes her cut at men level. Can you elaborate please?

That type of furikaeshi (kurumakaeshi in Jiki Shinkage Ryu) is called Mizu-kuruma, i.e. watermill, where the naginata rotates 360 degrees. The other type is Kaze-kuruma, i.e. windmill, where the naginata's ha-bu flips 180 degrees and comes back to cut.

As a picture is worth a thousand words, see my attachment:-

xvikingx

28-08-2003, 09:43 AM

:ermm: I think this may be one of those things I'll have to see with me own peepers. Thanks for the goods.

nagiwiz

29-08-2003, 12:02 AM

I'm a little confused too, :confused2
In the clip the Lady is doing Kaza guruma (windmill),
Mizu-guruma (waterwheel) is done to the side of the body the blade starts high falls backwards and just before hitting the elbow you step forward, the body turn allows the blade to continue its circular motion and then you complete the step with a sune strike.( as shown in Jennys pics Mizu guruma is the top pic)
Kazaguruma is Furikaeshi basically.
For both techniques you shouldn't need alot of space to either side of your body.

As to why Mizuguruma isn't used in Atarashi Naginata I'm afraid a don't know the answer. :ermm:
(but I'll try to find out !)

xvikingx

29-08-2003, 10:40 AM

Other than being used in shikake-oji, mizu-guruma no kaeshi, much like furi kaeshi would be totally useless. I am sure you COULD use it but whats the point. It would be like going into wakigamae in kendo; it only applies if you have a real blade.

xvikingx

29-08-2003, 10:46 AM

Is mizuguruma done from hasso? I really want to see this now! I see they have a dojo in hyougo. I would like to watch a class. Nagiwiz, could find the address/tel#/etc. from your sensei? Would that be asking too much?

nagiwiz

31-08-2003, 11:03 AM

It isn't done from hasso
Jikishin and atarashi naginata are different so for scoring points maybe mizuguruma would be useless, but for adding power to a sune strike (with the momentum of the falling blade and the hip turn movement) it is/would be very effective.
(BTW it's effective is isshu jiai too.)

Also furi kaeshi isn't useless in shiai, I've seen it used very effectively.

As far as the address etc, why not just mail the address on the website?
(I'll see what I can do)

xvikingx

31-08-2003, 02:34 PM

"Jikishin and atarashi naginata are different so for scoring points maybe mizuguruma would be useless..."
That was my point.

"Also furi kaeshi isn't useless in shiai, I've seen it used very effectively."
I'd like to see that. Anyone with a descent grasp of debana-waza would easily have the point before you'd get the naginata around the men.

"As far as the address etc, why not just mail the address on the website?"
I have. No reply.

"(I'll see what I can do)"
Thanks. If its too much trouble dont bother.

xvikingx

14-09-2003, 10:51 AM

Nagiwiz, thanks for the info. Its pretty far from where I live so Ill have to make a special trip out there some day.Beside I study tendo-ryu; we're supposed to be rivals :silly:

Jakob Ryngen

10-10-2003, 05:08 PM

I'm a little confused too, :confused2
As to why Mizuguruma isn't used in Atarashi Naginata I'm afraid a don't know the answer.
Really interesting stuff! But in the picture the mizuguruma is done in bogu and with a baboo-naginata. Doesn't this imply that the technique is used in Atarashi Naginata?

berghaan

10-10-2003, 05:27 PM

So if I understand correctly the watermill doesnt make the hands switch position other than going to "hasso" first.
In my opinion I think this movement is quite large opposed to a direct attack coming from hasso where you end up in the same position.
Maybe it is used in combination with a dodge/step back?

Jakob Ryngen

02-11-2003, 05:15 PM

I have read in Karl Friday's "Legacies of the sword" about a ryuha called Jikishin Kageryu where the studends are made to swear oaths signed in blood that include never to reveal the secrets of the ryuha. If they do they are to be punished in very horrible ways by the kami. :dead: Is this the same ryuha and are those practises still around?

Nagi David

03-11-2003, 10:05 PM

Hello,

Finally I saw kata including Naginata from the Jikishin kage ryu, in a demo over martial arts. It was quit interesting. The naginata used for it sems to be different than the one we use in zen nihon kata and tendo ryu.
Those kata were performed against someone with a bokken. Maybe one of these days I'll try to go in that club to receive some mor eplanation about it.
this link www.tradition.be is about that presentation, unfortunately it's in French...

Jakob Ryngen

03-11-2003, 10:56 PM

Finally I saw kata including Naginata from the Jikishin kage ryu, in a demo over martial arts. It was quit interesting. The naginata used for it sems to be different than the one we use in zen nihon kata and tendo ryu.
Jikishin Kageryu was demonstrated at the 2nd World Championships (and probably at the 1st as well) so you must have seen it before. I think the kata-naginata in atarashii naginata is a mix between a smaller Jikishin Kageryu naginata and the larger Tendo Ryu naginata. I use a TR naginata when I do zen nihon kata and it is certainly larger and heavier than the regular one.

BTW, I really think all naginata should be heavier. It really improves the technique (but not the speed).

mingshi

08-11-2003, 04:52 AM

Is this the same ryuha and are those practises still around?
I was wondering the same thing and I found something from Koryu.com, Women Warriors of Japan: The Role of the Arms-Bearing Women in Japanese History, Part 4, by Ellis Amdur http://www.koryu.com/library/wwj4.html#Jiki
In the 1860s, Satake Yoshinori, a student of the Jikishin and Yanagi Kage-ryu, developed a new naginata school with his wife, Satake Shigeo. She had studied martial arts since she was six years old and was famous for her strength with the naginata. Together they developed the forms of present day Jikishin Kage-ryu naginata-do. An innovative work, it bears no discernible relation to Ippusai's Jikishin Kage-ryu ken-jutsu. The addition of the suffix "do," (way) indicates that the founders saw their school as a budo, a means of martial practice for the purpose of self-perfection rather than self-preservation.
...quite ambiguous though.

BTW I am also reading "Legacies of the sword" ...erhm I got the book but too busy to finish it!!!

nagiwiz

12-11-2003, 10:47 AM

I asked my sensei about Mizuguruma in atarashii Naginata. Kihon for atarashii naginata comes from both Tendo ryu and Jiki shinkage ryu, i.e. Hasso from Tendo, Furikeashi from Jiki shinkage ryu etc, so Mizuguruma isn't practised in Kihon. However,
In Shiai, It is ok to uses any technique, so the Photo has mizuguruma shown in bogu.

Now,
I realise that most people who post here are Tendo ryu , and that you are likely to tell me how impractical it would be in Shiai to use this technique But, I offer this information to clear any possible confusion not as a critique on the techniques effectiveness.

BTW I disagree about heavier Naginata improving your technique.(just my opinion , not meant to sound offensive)

xvikingx

12-11-2003, 11:43 AM

Now,
I realise that most people who post here are Tendo ryu , and that you are likely to tell me how impractical it would be in Shiai to use this technique But, I offer this information to clear any possible confusion not as a critique on the techniques effectiveness.

BTW I disagree about heavier Naginata improving your technique.(just my opinion , not meant to sound offensive)

I appreciate the info. I hope the rivalry thing was not taken seriously, I was just screwing around. The fact that I study tendo-ryu has nothing to do with why I think that particular move would be impractical during shiai. I believe you are much better off keeping things simple if you want to win. People that get "fancy" usually get their asses handed to them.

Also I with Jakob, I like to practice with a heavier naginata. My sensei is always telling me how heavy my naginata is. Just like swinging a suburito it has helped my tenouchi and learning to use my whole body to cut. There is too much ugly naginata where people just reach instead of getting in there to cut.

Sorry, have one more thing... What are the naginata you use like? It seems like they are shorter with a less curved blade (compared to tendo-ryu naginata). I have only seen pictures so I wouldn't know. Thanks for all the goods so far. It nice to hear about other forms.

nagiwiz

18-11-2003, 01:06 AM

xvikingx

18-11-2003, 11:34 AM

They are shorter than Atarashii Naginata , I've never seen Tendo ryu Naginata so I wouldn't know if they are more curved or not.
I don't see it as a "fancy " strike, it's similar in alot of ways to Waki gamae sune, and it is effective (especially in Isshu Jiai) as I used it against a 6th Dan Kendoka in a demonstration match.

Perhaps "fancy" isn't the best word.... why swing all the way from waki to sune (or what ever) when you could get there faster doing tobikomi or from hasso. It may work in isshu jiai because kendoka are not used to the kind of reach we have but in naginata you're not fooling anyone. A good player will see it coming a mile away while dummys like me will only get hit by it once. I am not going to comment on mizuguruma because I have never seen it.

BTW it's nice to talk about naginata for a change. Thanks. :happy:

Jakob Ryngen

18-11-2003, 05:39 PM

Perhaps "fancy" isn't the best word.... why swing all the way from waki to sune (or what ever) when you could get there faster doing tobikomi or from hasso. It may work in isshu jiai because kendoka are not used to the kind of reach we have but in naginata you're not fooling anyone. A good player will see it coming a mile away while dummys like me will only get hit by it once. I am not going to comment on mizuguruma because I have never seen it.
Sune from waki is done in Zen Nihon kata and Tendo Ryu so it is certainly a valid technique. To my experience it works in shia too. Soku-sune from Hasso may be faster, but "waki-sune" has the advantage of being a cleaner hit as it is strait on (and thus making a better sound). It also has a shorter path within the opponents reach. Waki is somewhat obvious for a sune, true, but you can conduct an unexpected men from that position as well.

BTW, what is a tobikomi?

xvikingx

18-11-2003, 10:33 PM

Sune from waki is done in Zen Nihon kata and Tendo Ryu so it is certainly a valid technique. To my experience it works in shia too. Soku-sune from Hasso may be faster, but "waki-sune" has the advantage of being a cleaner hit as it is strait on (and thus making a better sound). It also has a shorter path within the opponents reach. Waki is somewhat obvious for a sune, true, but you can conduct an unexpected men from that position as well.

I am not disputing the fact that it is a valid point. I know that. I agree that an unexpected men/sune/kote may sneek in at times but I just feel you are better off defensively and offensively with chudan. Also not to mention that you have less distance to travel. If I see someone go into waki my first thought is "they are going to try and hit my sune", so that is what I am looking out for. If they come in for men or kote I have pleanty of time to react. You have harai waza, men nuki waza, and debana waza which would all be excellent counters. If I had my shodan I would tsuki for sure. :devious: WIDE open.
Another thing is, it is so rarely taken as a point. Don't get me wrong I love swinging from waki. Not only does it look cool but when you smack your opponent's sune or plonk them on the men it is so satisfying. I just think that you are better off striking from chudan.

"BTW, what is a tobikomi?"
I hope I can explain this properly. Instead of making a full swing during shomen/kote/furiage-sune, you just lift the kisaki slightly then dive in and stike. I need a lot of work on mine. I often get to excited and use too much front hand or I end up just tapping sune then scramble back to chudan. STUDY STUDY STUDY! :D

Nagi David

27-11-2003, 07:51 PM

http://www.jikishin-naginata.jp/

nagiwiz

28-11-2003, 11:40 AM

I already posted this.

Nagi David

28-11-2003, 04:26 PM

oops sorry

Nagi David

28-11-2003, 06:42 PM

sorry I realize now that the demonstration I saw was not Jiki shin kage but Katori Shinto ryu. Does anybody knows Naginata Katas from the Katori Shinto ryu

Jakob Ryngen

28-11-2003, 06:53 PM

I have one book and two videos with Katori Shinto Ryu naginatajutsu. The video with Otake-sensei is the best budo I have seen in my life! Really amazing stuff!!! I'll show it to you when you come to Sweden. :)

mingshi

28-11-2003, 08:59 PM

Dunno if you have seen this before, but someone from Ebudo posted this from this year's Meiji Jingu Taikai. A Katori Shinto-Ryu Naginatajitsu Kata... If I am correct this one is called Itsuzu (sp?).

http://people.cc.jyu.fi/~mijuvi/meijijingutaikai2003/tenshinshodenkatorishintoryu2.avi

...and I have never seen a kata done in this speed before :o