Jo v Shinken

[Fudo-Shin]

Have you ever thought about to what point would a Jo be able to withstand Makiotoshi or say...Dou barai Uchi against a shinken? Practically speaking. I know that's not the purpose of the Jo nowadays, or at least Jodo, but there was a time when a practitioner had to put serious thought into this. Has anyone ever tested the strength of a Jo using these techniques under "controlled conditions"...or is it infact possible for that matter? Maybe someone could put a Jo on the tameshigiri stand? But even that would detract from technique (ie catching not parrying or blocking).

My theory is that in a duel between "Tou & Jo", for the Jo to have a chance the practitioner would have to have more experience than the Kenshi in both Jo and Sword. And he would have to end the bout as quick as possible due to the Jo being seriously damaged after a few cuts. He would have to be the aggresor (sp?), as in Kendo etc, and set the tempo, and not take a step backwards as we are taught. And of course use the length where possible.

Of course this line of thought is not in the, let's say, essence of Jo nowadays, but I truly believe that one should at least touch on these concepts to grow as a Jodoka, and I'm sure all the high level Sensei have thought about this at some stage.

What are your thoughts??

[Fred27]

I'm not 100% sure what the questions are or what the scenarios are here so I'm treating them as I percieved them.

If you put a shinken on a tameshigiri stand you will cut straight through, but we arent supposed to meet the cutting-edge head on.

Am I correct to assume you believe the jo might break too easily when faced with a swordsman? Not sure how to answer that, except that since we are taught to sweep the soft part of the sword (backside) with the jo instead of smacking it full force then I'd say that it would last long enough. Thats just me talking though. :)

[Fudo-Shin]

I'm not 100% sure what the questions are or what the scenarios are here so I'm treating them as I percieved them.
I'm talking more like a Shinken Shoubu situation, swordsman wants to kill you (I think Shinken Shoubu can also mean any fight to the death, not just sword and sword).

Am I correct to assume you believe the jo might break too easily when faced with a swordsman? Maybe not break through, but if it splinters alot of the techniques will become inhibited.

.... since we are taught to sweep the soft part of the sword (backside) with the jo instead of smacking it full force then I'd say that it would last long enough.With my Dobarai uchi example I was more or less meaning the initial block or "catching" of the sword, which come to think of it, is almost square on. Maybe the catching of the sword in Makiotoshi is another good platform for this conversation. The sword wouldn't/shouldn't cut through the Jo but there would definately be some inherent damage caused by the blow.

While we are on this topic, FWIW I think most of our "technique" would probably go out the window, and it would probably become a "hack and slash" brawl :hurt:. Of course...not a nice subject.

[Newbie]

but maki slides down the back of the sword, not the blade. i'm only new to being a sankyu, but is there any situation where the jo attempts to meet the blade of the sword? I didn't think there was cos, like you said, it'd go straight through it.

[Fred27]

While we are on this topic, FWIW I think most of our "technique" would probably go out the window, and it would probably become a "hack and slash" brawl :hurt:. Of course...not a nice subject.

Ah, well in that case you have made it more clear what you are getting at: "Will this work in a real fight", and that you have already made up your mind, saying that "Most of our techniques "prolly" wouldn't work" and it would be a "hack and slash". :)

I'm not qualified for that sort of discussion. :D

*edit*

Newibe: The sweeping movement down that sword yes, but Fudoshin was referring to the the "catching" of the sword.

As far as I know there are no edge-to-jo blocks, just meeting swords at an angle which wont allow the sword to cut straight through.

As an example, Pascal Krieger has this to say about Maki otoshi and Do barai.

Along with Hiki otoshi uchi, maki otoshi is a movement peculiar to Jodo. The length of the Jo as well as its round shape confer a extraordinary efficay to this movement. In reality, experience has shown that a real blade could not cut the Jo if the muscular absorption and the blocking angles were applied correctly. It is evident that a rigid and immobile Jo will not withstand a real cut.


And on Do barai he says:

This kihon consists of blocking a kesa giri delievered by Uchidachi on your right side. The give of the muscles will be sufficient to stop the blade from cutting straight through the Jo. The strike that follows the block will make Uchidachi reel forward and will expose him to the Jo coming up the centre-line. Do barai uchi is a concrete example of the omni-present control of the jo over the bokken.

[Fudo-Shin]

... is there any situation where the jo attempts to meet the blade of the sword? I didn't think there was cos, like you said, it'd go straight through it.Not square on to my knowledge, but I think there are times where the blade will make some contact. I stand to be corrected though. Just thought it might be good for a chat in the Jodo section.

[Fudo-Shin]

Ah, well in that case you have made it more clear what you are getting at: "Will this work in a real fight", and that you have already made up your mind, saying that "Most of our techniques "prolly" wouldn't work" and it would be a "hack and slash". :)

I'm not qualified for that sort of discussion. :DI didn't say the techniques wouldn't work, I said they would probably go out the window, as in, I personally don't think I could do my technique as well as I would during pair work for example. My Kendo is alot stronger than my Jo and I don't think I would even hold those techniques too well in a real situation. The intensity of the situation would weigh heavily, like Shiai in Kendo for example. You kind of lose your techniques "integrity" so to speak.

I think you are safe to offer your opinion on it if you want to...you don't have to be qualified for that.

[Fudo-Shin]

ohhh....BTW, thanks for posting those comments made by Kreiger. Where can I find those?? Sorry for the triple post.

[Newbie]

but I think there are times where the blade will make some contact

When? Not trying to be a smartarse - just a very curious beginner.

[Fred27]

I didn't say the techniques wouldn't work, I said they would probably go out the window, as in, I personally don't think I could do my technique as well as I would during pair work for example. My Kendo is alot stronger than my Jo and I don't think I would even hold those techniques too well in a real situation. The intensity of the situation would weigh heavily, like Shiai in Kendo for example. You kind of lose your techniques "integrity" so to speak.

I think you are safe to offer your opinion on it if you want to...you don't have to be qualified for that.

Hm..well I cant even begin to speculate on how any individual would react in a combat situation.

Noone can predict how combat will affect the human mind. There is no way to adequatly simulate the scenario with razorsharp ma-ai, the timing that must be dead-on or you yourself are dead. A wasted breath or a wrong movement might be the difference between life and death... The intense focus you experience (or dont experience) in battle cannot be compared with how you do it in a "harmless" sparring session. Most likely you will never experience fear in sparring or the intense rush of adrenaline as in a real life scenario.

I dont know how I Personally would react. Would I be able to keep my head clear of "must" and "must not"? Would I freeze up? For me its impossible to tell, so I cant answer the question wether or not I can use my techniques properly as I have never been in mortal combat before with so much at stake.

On a more general note one could perhaps ask a martial artist of today who trains in a self-defense system, lets say karate, and was at one time involved in a real fight with his own life at stake with no option of running away. Did he remember his techniques? Did he retain his focus? Was his mind clear? Was he stressed so he couldn't fight properly? and so on.

Regarding teh cutting of the jo. Yeh I there would be cuts on the jo. Of course that depends on the skill of the jodoka, but if he/she is competent in the system he/she should be able to keep the upper hand.

[Fred27]

The quotes are from the book "The way of the stick" and is no longer in print. Though if you ask nicely via the European Jodo Federations website (email), you can download it in PDF format.

Or read an online version of it. See here for more details: http://www.fej.ch/en/news.htm

[Fred27]

When? Not trying to be a smartarse - just a very curious beginner.

Nah dont worry. We dont think your arse is any dumber or smarter than the rest of us..(ours). :p

[Newbie]

Hm..well I cant even begin to speculate on how any individual would react in a combat situation.

Well, sempai did something interesting the other night at training. Can't remember what prompted it but he held my bokken as though he was going to tsuki my surigetsu and I was standing pretty close to him and he asked me what I could do to defend against it. So here I am muddling my way trying to think of what tandoku would counter such an act, etc and everything I did, nothing worked. Then the li'l smartarse said that if you're that close, run away cos it's the wrong range for jo. Ha-ha, it's cos my miai needs a lot of work ;)

Nah dont worry. We dont think your arse is any dumber or smarter than the rest of us..(ours).

Prettier, maybe? ;)

[Fred27]

Well, sempai did something interesting the other night at training. Can't remember what prompted it but he held my bokken as though he was going to tsuki my surigetsu and I was standing pretty close to him and he asked me what I could do to defend against it. So here I am muddling my way trying to think of what tandoku would counter such an act, etc and everything I did, nothing worked. Then the li'l smartarse said that if you're that close, run away cos it's the wrong range for jo. Ha-ha, it's cos my miai needs a lot of work ;)


Heh, yeh I get those too from my sensei. When I'm shidachi and he is uchidachi I sometimes move my body forward before my weapon which is a "no-no". He usually points that out by exploiting the critical opening in my defense...Or in other words, he pokes me in the stomach with his sword. :p

Prettier, maybe? ;)

Most likely yes, though I have yet to see yours :p

[Aden]

Newbie

IMHO - in general terms there is no too close for jo (though there are plenty of situations that are not good for jo in close if the sword controls how you get to the situation, which appears to be what you were describing) - there are lots of things jo does at very close distances - its just that they don't happen to be the things as practiced in tandoku dosa.

Aden
rambling in a mostly uninformed way as usual

[Budo Angel]

A giggle here... once our sempai used his shinken against the Jo, and in a Do cut, it did cut the Jo :ko: (ps. I think he was demonstrating the 'effectiveness' of a Jo do-block...which I don't believe works anyway, even with a bokken :sleeping: )...anyway, good debate here :smiley:

[Newbie]

Jo do block? Can someone explain this to me?

[Budo Angel]

Sorry, Do as in WAIST cut, as in like RANAI (number 12 kata)...old kendo terminology speak afraid...

You know, Jo blocks, then does an otoshi...(if you know Ranai that is...)

[Newbie]

Yeah, yeah, I understood the words just not the context. I've only done the first three kata.

[Fudo-Shin]

Jo do block? Can someone explain this to me?I think Budo Angel is talking about DouBarai here, No 11 in the Tandoku. Aite attacks dou, and you block as you step out of range....you know this I think, I should stop rambling :smiley:. DoBarai, I think would do the most damage to your Jo out of all the techniques.

On this topic, I think I remember my Sensei saying that regarding any waza that might make contact with the blade, the blade of the sword would be momentarily stuck and in the case of DouBaraiUchi, it would give you a good chance to really smash the sword in the second part of the technique. But my qualm is that you might only get one good chance due to the splintering of the Jo.

[Budo Angel]

Thanks Andy, the other Andy in my life, might cringe I forgot the term... Do-barai...
the blade of the sword would be momentarily stuck
... it did, and we all laughed ! (ps. this was only to demonstrate a point, its not our regular Jodo practice, honest !)

[Fudo-Shin]

... (ps. this was only to demonstrate a point, its not our regular Jodo practice, honest !)
And I think we all stand united that this topic is only a line of thought, not a topic to be brewed on in the Dojo. What I mean is kind of, I think we all know here, that this is not what Jodo is about, Shinken Shoubu etc. It's not a topic for self-cultivation so to speak.....ahhh it's late and I'm tired after Keiko tonight and a 36 degrees day, spent all day in the sun as usual, and now I can't explain myself. I hope you guys know what I'm getting at.