The * Kirikaeshi * Thread

[mingshi]

You must be doing this every single time you get into a dojo. But there are slight variation between individuals (either based on personal preference or dojo teachings). So I would like to clear things up here.

Kirikaeshi consisted of (officially) the following steps:-
1) One Sho-Men cut
2) Tai-atari
3) Forward Sayu-Men cuts starting from your right, then left, right, left...
4) Backward Sayu-Men cuts from right, then left, right, left, right [some people do 3 only...]
5) Repeat #1-4
6) One Sho-Men cut, go thru and turn back

Questions to consider:-

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be? Some people just don't do it at all by standing still, while the others try terribly hard to crush into you.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?

C. How fast is fast enough? Can I do it slow, real slow? I notice some senpai do it really fast (and hard!), and they helicopter a bit too much.

D. What about the Kiai? Men, Men Men Men... OR Men, Me-e-e-e-e-... OR Men, Meeeeeee...??

E. What about the breathing? When do you breath IN? Refering the steps above, I notice some people breath in right after step #4, while some hold their Kiai/breath until they did the second Sho-Men uchi.

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? I always have my right foot forward when I receive with my Shinai on the left (and vice versa). Some do it different.

That's it for now. Maybe I'd add more related questions after a few practice...

Cheers,

[Neil Gendzwill]

Questions to consider:-

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be? Some people just don't do it at all by standing still, while the others try terribly hard to crush into you.

Our dojo style is good and strong, and the receiver giving as good as he gets.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?

Big big big - kirikaeshi is basics.

C. How fast is fast enough? Can I do it slow, real slow? I notice some senpai do it really fast (and hard!), and they helicopter a bit too much.

About 1 cut/second is a good pace for beginners. Even slower is OK.

D. What about the Kiai? Men, Men Men Men... OR Men, Me-e-e-e-e-... OR Men, Meeeeeee...??

One continuous sound with peaks at the impact points.

E. What about the breathing? When do you breath IN? Refering the steps above, I notice some people breath in right after step #4, while some hold their Kiai/breath until they did the second Sho-Men uchi.

Breath after the second shomenuchi.

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? I always have my right foot forward when I receive with my Shinai on the left (and vice versa). Some do it different.

Ayumiashi as you describe.

[kendomushi]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be?
Tai-atari for us is never to move the opponent, but to spring off giving yourself the chance to attack. That being said, in kirikaeshi, the reciever also tends to step back to help set the maai.

B. How big is big enough?
You should see your left hand pass above your eyes.

C. How fast is fast enough?
Speed is irrelevant. Trying to be as correct, focused, deliberate as possible is most important.

D. What about the Kiai?
We encourage men men men men.... helps get beginners used to the idea of vocalizing as they attack.

E. What about the breathing?
After the first 9 sayu men or at the end if you can manage it.

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? I do it as you are.

[aru-ma]

[QUOTE=kendomushi]A. How strong should the Tai-atari be?
strong enough to spring fom you partner but not to strong so that your partner doesnt fly off

B. How big is big enough?
shomen suburi big

C. How fast is fast enough?
as fast as you can as long as you dont compromise your posture

D. What about the Kiai?
men men men men

E. What about the breathing?
depends, sometime after each cut but usualy after 1/2 a set

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? ayumiashi.

[JSchmidt]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be? Some people just don't do it at all by standing still, while the others try terribly hard to crush into you."

I do it slightly differently than most. I don't bring my hands down towards tsuba-zerai, but keep them at cutting height. (I was taught to do this way).
I never do it harder than the opponent is able to reasonably comfortably absorb.
Same with recieving: I use my hands to recieve the opponent and as my hands move in towards my body, I step back to recieve the first sayu-men.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?

Always left hand above my eyeline.

C. How fast is fast enough? Can I do it slow, real slow? I notice some senpai do it really fast (and hard!), and they helicopter a bit too much.[b]

As fast as you can without compromising form!. Keep posture, left hand above head and *always left hand in the center. Helicoptering is usually a combination of not keeping left and in the center and too much right hand.

[b]D. What about the Kiai? Men, Men Men Men... OR Men, Me-e-e-e-e-... OR Men, Meeeeeee...??


On superslow kirikaeshi, it's Men, Men, etc...on normal it's mee-e-e-e-e-e...on superfast ones it's "Arrrriigigihiojhkljfhjkhkihihihh!" (or something like that)

E. What about the breathing? When do you breath IN? Refering the steps above, I notice some people breath in right after step #4, while some hold their Kiai/breath until they did the second Sho-Men uchi.

I usually try to do it in one breath...otherwise, after the second shomen.

Jakob

[emitbrownne]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be? Some people just don't do it at all by standing still, while the others try terribly hard to crush into you.
I have been taught that this Tai-atari should be similar to a pool ball stiking another. The white (attacker) should be able to transfer the formward momentum with enough force, so that the 8 ball (reciever) moves back at a just slightly decelerated momemtum... until in correct distance again.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?
Over head big.. maybe even comedy big... but I think thats my personal preference

C. How fast is fast enough? Can I do it slow, real slow? I notice some senpai do it really fast (and hard!), and they helicopter a bit too much.
It depends on what I'm trying to achieve.. but generally its as fast as I can go whilst keeping it big and clean.

D. What about the Kiai? Men, Men Men Men... OR Men, Me-e-e-e-e-... OR Men, Meeeeeee...??
I'm a multimen kinda guy (men, men, men etc) but I try to do it all in one continuous breath....

E. What about the breathing? When do you breath IN? Refering the steps above, I notice some people breath in right after step #4, while some hold their Kiai/breath until they did the second Sho-Men uchi.
I try for as long as I can... maybe to do the entire in one breath (yeah right!.. when I do that I will really happy). Generally though it works out best just before the second shomen... and sometimes I'll sneak in a baby breath ... but shh thats a secret:)

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? I always have my right foot forward when I receive with my Shinai on the left (and vice versa). Some do it different.
Snap.. I do it the same.. and so do most of the Kendoka I know.

[Charlie]

May I add:

I was told recently by my mentors that it's all right for beginners when doing to tai-atari to have motodachi pull back a little bit, instead of making the beginner push him back with good tai-atari. However, at higher levels (shodan-nidan), the attacker should push motodachi with a good, hard tai-atari.

Same with speed. I have been told to do it once slow and once as fast as you can and always big. I usually do it "slow" (one stroke per second sounds about right).

I try to do it in two breaths though I know it can be done in one. One thing, I always do the last men with the original breath. In other words, breathe in, first set, breath out. Breathe in, second set - one last men from the hara - breathe out.

Good thread topic!

[Old Warrior]

We do kirakaeshi both with and without a partner EVERY class. While my form and kendo have worlds to improve, I thought I had the basic idea down pretty good. My cuts were on target, my rhythm fairly smooth; although my footwork was still poor.

When I became the dojang "Nito Man" (about 6 weeks ago) the exercise was changed (by the Master) somewhat to accomodate my 2 swords - and I was sent back to square one. The first shomen is done while simultaneously using the shoto to push the opponents shinai off center. That means the timing is off as they have to bring their hands back to deflect my advancing torso. Then as I begin the temple strikes, I am still reflexively moving the shoto (cutting air) as I strike from side to side. These cuts require the use of the muscles on the outer edges of the arm and need development. To say the least, this exercise has become another real challenge, just to do it, let alone do it right. And, each of my partners has to learn how to accept the new version. Kendo is teaching me the need for even greater patience and concentration. This is not a "piece of cake" when done in my new evolved form.

[Ryukyu]

OW,

Did you ever find out why your Master had you switch to nito?
Just curious, and never saw anything to that effect on the forums.
Sorry if you mentioned this elsewhere.

[mingshi]

Thanks for the input everyone. So there are variations, and no one is particularly wrong about things I pointed out... Sometimes the minor details can get quite specific.

Question:

G. What is the footwork on going backwards, in coordination with the cuts? Ki-ken-tai-ichi with the right foot or left foot? Is it the same as Hiki-men?

H. How far would you go back after the 5th cut backwards?

I. How many sets do you do in your dojo usually (and/or in special occations)?

Cheers,

[alexpollijr]

G. What is the footwork on going backwards, in coordination with the cuts? Ki-ken-tai-ichi with the right foot or left foot? Is it the same as Hiki-men?

Usually it's the usual okuriashi backward footwork, but I've seen candidates for Sandan and above here use backwards fumikomiashi in the last (5th) backward sayumen cut. That doesn't seem to be the standard though, at least not in the ZNKR Kendo Fundamentals tape.

H. How far would you go back after the 5th cut backwards?

Back to toma-ai .

I. How many sets do you do in your dojo usually (and/or in special occations)?

Plenty of standard nikai sets. I'd say about Every practice finishes with 50 (gojukai if I'm not mistaken ) sayumen uchikaeshi.


- Alexandre

[Charlie]

G. What is the footwork on going backwards, in coordination with the cuts? Ki-ken-tai-ichi with the right foot or left foot? Is it the same as Hiki-men?

Ki-ken-tai-ichi with the right foot. Same as hiki-men only slower and stepping instead of fast and launching. Interested to see if this is the same everywhere.

H. How far would you go back after the 5th cut backwards?

Some people just step back but I have also been taught that the last cut should be an "escape," a good hiki men and then getthehellouttathere.

I. How many sets do you do in your dojo usually (and/or in special occations)?

A couple to start with and one or two at the end. Except when that is the emphasis of the practice (which is frequently the case) or during a "hell" practice.

[Eldritch Knight]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be?
Our tai-atari is an sharp upward thrust, from below the opponent's center of mass. The idea is to faze them and to throw them off balance for a split second.

B. How big is big enough?
We have the first shomen-uchi be as wide as possible (all the way back), while the sayumen-uchi are from left hand above the head and down.

C. How fast is fast enough?
In my dojo, fast enough to be both graceful and correct. There is a "too fast", and there is a "too slow"

D. What about the Kiai?
We traditionally use "men, men, men...", but since tests require you to do "men, meeeee...", some of the more traditional senpai will do that instead.

E. What about the breathing?
After the shomen-uchi, after the first 4 sayumen-uchi, and after the last 5 sayumen-uchi

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? We use standard chuudan suriashi for all of those blocks.

[Shazzanzzz]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be?

I just go forward as much as possible, don't really try to do the tai-atari. Depends on who my partner is. Some people backs away before you can do it.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?

Always as big as possible, over the head, all the time. Doesn't matter how fast, but have to be big.

C. How fast is fast enough?

Speed doesn't really matter. I usually do it once slow and once fast.

D. What about the Kiai?

I do men,meee.....

E. What about the breathing?

breath after the second and last shomwen.

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts?

normal sliding steps. When cut is on my left, right foot forward and when cut is on my right, left foot forward.


G. What is the footwork on going backwards, in coordination with the cuts? Ki-ken-tai-ichi with the right foot or left foot? Is it the same as Hiki-men?

Just a normal cut basically. right foot.

H. How far would you go back after the 5th cut backwards?

a little furthur than toma, a step or two.

I. How many sets do you do in your dojo usually (and/or in special occations)?

we usually do about 5 to 7 to start, then 1 or two more at the end after ji-keiko.

[Ben F.]

A. How strong should the Tai-atari be? Some people just don't do it at all by standing still, while the others try terribly hard to crush into you.

B. How big is big enough? Left hand above your head, or the opponent's head (or you eyes?)?

C. How fast is fast enough? Can I do it slow, real slow? I notice some senpai do it really fast (and hard!), and they helicopter a bit too much.

D. What about the Kiai? Men, Men Men Men... OR Men, Me-e-e-e-e-... OR Men, Meeeeeee...??

E. What about the breathing? When do you breath IN? Refering the steps above, I notice some people breath in right after step #4, while some hold their Kiai/breath until they did the second Sho-Men uchi.

F. On the receiving end... what footwork are you having when you receive the Sayu-men cuts? I always have my right foot forward when I receive with my Shinai on the left (and vice versa). Some do it different.

That's it for now. Maybe I'd add more related questions after a few practice...

Cheers,

Mingshi,

Here are my thoughts on the matter. Take them for what they are worth.

A) The Tai-atari should be as strong as the partner you are working with. If they are a beginnger or newbie, take it easy on them but be firm so they will know what is expected of them. If it is a senior, they can take it, so check them firmly and resolutely, just as you would in an actual shiai.

B) My teacher tells us to clear the left hand so we can see under it and then make the next cut.

C) Start slowly! Get the targeting and the feeling of making nice, full cuts first and then add speed as your experience and familiarity increases. We learned this the opposite way, speed first, and now it is a hard lesson to unlearn.

D & E) No help here.

F) I agree with you-shinai on the left with right foot forward and vv.

Nothing new there, but my two cents worth.

Cheers!