Purposely trying to hurt someone

[Shazzanzzz]

I was a little disturbed about two recent threads, one about covering target areas and one about head dodging. Seems like a lot of people's answer to those things are to hurt the person doing it.

I'm not a high ranking sensei, so i have no authority to lecture any people, but, think about what you are saying. You are saying you are knowingly trying to hurt someone, sometimes even your sempai or sensei, which should never happen. Plus, if you are good enough in kendo, you should have enough control to see these things happening and NOT hurt the other person. It is not their fault if you hurt them, it is yours. If I see anyone doing such things in my club, I would personally see to it that either they stop doing it or they can stop coming to practice. I don't know why some of you think it's ok.

I have said this already, and so have a lot of other people on this board. If your opponent see your strike coming and either doges or cover up the target area, you aren't good enough to do the strike. Against a better opponent, they will score on you. Your answer shouldn't be getting frustrated and trying to hurt them, but you should improve your kendo so you can score.

Most times, if a sensei or sempai does something like that, he probably won't say anything if you hurt them because they are more disappointed in themselves for doing so. So they would say something in the sort that it is their fault for covering the target or dodging. But does that mean it's ok to hurt them? I personally don't think so.

It's like in other sports, block in the back and tackling below the waist in football, cutting the legs under the offensive player in basketball while he goes up for a bucket, or high sticking someone in hocky. I'm sure you think that's not ok also.

[hl1978]

I would assume people feel that way out of frustration, much like why fights occur in hockey, why people crosscheck in lacrosse and hockey etc. Despite supposedly being more enlightened than "the animals" adrealin and emotion still gets the best of people.

Further, the way that people strike in kendo doesnt really hurt that much (due to the fact that few people actually put all their bodyweight behind it and the nature of the shinai itself, using bokken would be an entirely different matter), perhaps some people believe it as a more gentile reminder that we are supposed to be simulating combat and that moving the head or covering up the target ruins that simulation. Putting enough weight as though one was doing a full cut would be more than excessive, and just like in sports the sports you mentioned, judges/referees would step in and an appropriate penality should be applied.

I personally have no objection at all if the defender can step out of the way of the attack entirely, and indeed we have a whole bunch of waza just for doing that.

Other posters made a good point that doing so shows that the person doing that has poor defense.

In my own experience, those people who have recieved a strike to the shoulders usualy stop doing it, and none have complained to me about being hit that way. I guess they expect it as a consequence and not as a result of any disapointment themselves. most of the time, the people I have come accross doing the head dodging are highschool age, or up to sandan, I rarely have seen it done above that in person so perhaps it is a question of maturity as well as skill level?

[JCM]

Yes, I never understood why some people think they have to get back to their aite if they miss a do or hit the elbow instead of Kote. To me is just not on, or why there is any enjoyment in doing so

I have missed sometimes and I have also been hit in the elbow or the ribs a few others, is part of training, and personally I don't complain unless it was excruciating and was done with malice. We all have to practice and get better, part of it is missing targets.

Some of us have to learn Kendo, some others have to learn patience :happy:

[Anime12478]

I don't see it as purposefully hitting the person, but if they dodge or block with an unprotected body part, then that is their problem if the strike is done correctly.

I've had people dodge their heads to me, but I never really thought about seeing it as a problem in my fights other than to just try again. I think that most of the frustration comes from the fact that people see others do things like that and they don't know how to get at them for that.

If someone goes out of their way to hurt someone, then it's a problem. But I've heard of people who might give them a "reminder" as what they are supposed to be doing.

[Obulco]

But I've heard of people who might give them a "reminder" as what they are supposed to be doing.

Yes, I heard of these people too: instructors and leaders of a dojo. For the rest of us, I do not think that it is our place to teach any of these “lessons.” Time is better spent in improving our own technique.

[hl1978]

If someone goes out of their way to hurt someone, then it's a problem. But I've heard of people who might give them a "reminder" as what they are supposed to be doing.

I think most would agree it would be inapropriate for someone at their next opportunity to simply strike the shoulder and not even aim for men. I dont really see a problem if it strikes the shoulder as a result of the dodge since we aren't really supposed to be just bouncing off the surface anyways.

[Old Warrior]

I never have any anger when an off target hit is acknowledged. Similarly, a beginner who gets excited and loses control, does not get me riled despite the pain. However, if people who should know better crack my elbow or hit high above the armor on the side, my level of concentration and aggression goes up. It's not that I want to hurt them, I just want the bout over sooner rather than later and I want my opponent on the defensive. Beginners get a couple of warnings and then I just ratchet up my game and eliminate them instantly. I think everyone gets my point without having to say much.

[tango]

However, if people who should know better crack my elbow or hit high above the armor on the side, my level of concentration and aggression goes up.

I've found that to be true for me, too..

[MikeW]

I don't really have a problem with it. Hyun sensei tagged me with a high do strike during a recent keiko that was really hard (it was black and blue under my armpit for over a week), even sensei miss a strike now and then. If lower ranked people start swinging wildly and hitting unprotected areas I stop and explain the situation to them. I don't think I have ever gotten mad at anyone in a kendo shiai or jigeiko except being mad at myself.

[Bokushingu]

For me, i look at kendo as a full contact sport. recieving painfull shots dont even phase me. in fact, i have taken showers afterwards and noticed bruise. Kendo is a full contact sport, with that there's things that go along with it. Agression, emotions, pain, etc... If i have a hit that goes low or high i apologize. If it happens to me, i ignore it no matter if it was intentional or not. If they apologize i say no need. if i hit too high or low & they get mad at me & go harder oh well. I remember a sandan who yelled at me in front of everyone after my kote was alittle too high "You do that again i'll tsuki you in the neck!" alot of people were afraid for me. i said if that happens then oh well its a part of kendo.

I have to admit i have been grilled about blocking, dodging, going backwards by people that do it against me--it is frustrating. so i dont block, move backwards or dodge, i just take the hit. if they are doing a nuki waza or suriage/kaeshi against me than thats fine...I love it!

[Masahiro]

well, don't ever dare step into a japanese police kendo dojo, or for that matter, train with anyone who looks at kendo as a serious art. I am not saying you have to try and hurt the other person, but the "kill" intent has to be there. other wise the wazas are just a series of physical motion and not waza.

[hyuna]

I don't see it as purposefully hitting the person, but if they dodge or block with an unprotected body part, then that is their problem if the strike is done correctly.
I don't think Shazanzzz is talking about that kind of thing.

I think he is referring to posts like the one you made, where you said:

I guess if someone does do that, then make sure to hit them especially hard there ;)

The smily suggests that you are joking, but actually a lot of people seem to offer the same sort of response in a way that makes one wonder if they are actually seriously suggesting "teaching the guy a lesson."

I have to admit that I also feel a little disturbed when I see that kind of response, even when a person is obviously joking. Maybe it's because I know too many mean people who would go from joking about it to actually doing it without a second thought. The people I am thinking of don't do kendo, and I would like to believe that kendo players are above that kind of thing, but it may be naive of me to think so.


Oh, and MikeW, there is a Hyun sensei in NC? Really? Wow, I have to go and visit sometime! I have never met anyone with my last name that is not in my immediate family :)

[Big One]

For correct Tenouchi, we can't hit the shoulder since the cut shouldn't be that deep. I think at the end, we are not learning Kendo to survive in the real World like ancient people. Then we shouldn't hurt anyone if even at their faults. It ain't worth it. for me, if I see someone blocking Do with elbow, I just stop short of hitting Do. However, I did hit off target many times and I always apologize for it.

[Kuma]

As my sensei told me, we are in a fight. We aren't throwing punches, but we are fighting. Without that seriousness, we don't give it the dedication that it deserves. I suppose that the way that I was looking at it is that we are limiting ourselves to a set of rules in a fight, so our determination and awareness become what gives us our edge in this fight. As such, I can't imagine ever purposely striking in such a way as to cause pain; it's simply not part of the rules as I understand them. I didn't really get the whole elbow thing, but that doesn't surprise me, since I don't really catch a lot of what goes on in kendo yet.

On a related note, I missed it but my wife pointed out a match at the Detroit tournament in which one kendoka was struck with what I believe was a bad do and ended up shouting, "DAMMIT! DAMMIT! DAMMIT!" over and over. As far as I know that didn't end up with a fight. So if he could get hit painfully enough to cause him to scream in frustration, but he didn't retaliate, well I suppose that I wouldn't have an excuse to myself.

[don don]

I was a little disturbed about two recent threads, one about covering target areas and one about head dodging. Seems like a lot of people's answer to those things are to hurt the person doing it.

Just for the record, my comment about stopping "tenouchi till his shoulders are so bruised he has to straighten up" was entirely in jest. (I was most careful to put a 'laughing face' smiley with it to make that clear.) It would concern me greatly if anyone thought I was serious.
Yes, you are quite right to make this comment. I have been struck off target (to a non armoured area) intentionally on 2 occasions, both causing injury. If that's happening there's no mutual respect and therefore no Kendo happening at all.
By the way, I strongly support Kingofmyrrh's comments on the 'head dodging' thread. A valuable contribution.

[Paburo]

last night at keiko i was talking with my friend about this...

i unintentionally hit him in the elbow when going for hiki dou and left him with a bruise (granted, 1. when i went for dou the target was CLEAR and UNCOVERED, and 2. had he not covered the cut, it would have been ON SPOT). i told him i was very sorry and that i really did aim for dou but i wasn't fast enough to get there before he covered. and he replied it was still my fault! lol.

now, i don't agree with this. let's give a twist to the original question: ¿if your opponent genuinely and commitedly goes for the good strike in the correct area and you block with your body or bend your head and end up hurt, is it still the opponents fault?

he claims that you should always be able to stop the cut and avoid hurting or even touching your opponents unarmoured parts..... in a perfect world, maybe. YES. but let's face it... if i lack the skill and speed of reflexes to be able to get there before you block or bend your head, how do you expect me to have the skill and reflexes to stop an airborne cut just because you have unexpectedly covered it with your unarmoured area or bent your head? (i'm talking about normal cuts here, not conan-waza tenouchi-less or anything)

when i do nito, i get hit a lot everywhere all the time. ppl often miss like 50% of their cuts which end up being a bruise or a stingy blow. i accept it as long as theyre not missing on purpose or trying to hurt me to get ippon.

bottom line is, i would ONLY blame and point someone who is missing or trying to hurt me on purpose. if i block, bend my head, do weird stuff, or if i just simply stand there and get hit in a softspot by mistake... well, shit happens. get over it and go on fighting.

[JCM]

Well, if someone blocks with an elbow in mid-attack to their do is really their own fault, is just a stupid thing to do. It doesn't mean I will hit them any harder or anything

[dwez]

Well, if someone blocks with an elbow in mid-attack to their do is really their own fault, is just a stupid thing to do. It doesn't mean I will hit them any harder or anything

...I'm struggling to see how this is different from the head-bobbing in which the response is get better. Now I do agree this is the ultimate solution but I still also believe most people aren't at that level and people will block with their elbow or move their head. Every time I have ever instinctively blocked with my elbow I know it's my fault.

Every time I've been caught on the elbow otherwise has taught me the valuable lesson of getting an elbow pad. Like a kote pad and an eye protector I may end up with about 5 tonne of extra kit but I don't want my kendo to be a painful experience, not when I can use protection to better ensure my safety. It is a full contact activity you will accidentally hurt people and be hurt learning to accept that after every precaution has been taken is common sense really.

[JCM]

I think the difference is that the discussion on head bobbing was about hurting your opponent on purpose when they do this sort of thing, and the fact that you should not reach the shoulder.

Men and do are different, in that with proper tenouch you should never reach the shoulder, with do they are actually bringing their arm into the target area, so no amount of tenouch is going to avoid an elbow strike.

There are different opinions here, I have my own as well as other people have theirs. I don't mind people doing it against me in shiai. This is another topic in which we'll all have to agree to disagree

[emitbrownne]

he claims that you should always be able to stop the cut and avoid hurting or even touching your opponents unarmoured parts..... in a perfect world, maybe. YES. but let's face it... if i lack the skill and speed of reflexes to be able to get there before you block or bend your head, how do you expect me to have the skill and reflexes to stop an airborne cut just because you have unexpectedly covered it with your unarmoured area or bent your head? (i'm talking about normal cuts here, not conan-waza tenouchi-less or anything)

In Kata yep be Uber safe and have control..
In armour not as much.. I thought you had to be committed to your cut.

He claims you should always be able to stop the cut... I dunno about that.. maybe you could take some of the impact out of it.

I'd turn it around and say in a perfect world he wouldnt block with an unarmoured bit of body, and that he should either parry it or get out of the way.

Now please dont get me wrong I'm not advocating the wild hack and slash approach, nor am I saying that people who think before a match starts "I'm gonna get his elbow as revenge" are right.

However for you to concentrate on pulling your cuts for the sake of their bad habits, will only introduce bad habits into your kendo.

If I get hit on the elbow (especially in nito when trying to otoshi a do cut and my shoto kensen is too high) I apologise to my opponent for ruining their cut.

summary : controlling your cut is good. Not hurting someone is the idea. Getting your kendo right is what you are there for.

[Charlie]

I agree with Paul and Shazz, it's not good to purposely hurt your opponent. I think there's confusion about purposely and accidentally hitting someone in a non-armored area. I'm sorry to say I do both all the time - I dodge (usually only against jodan), and get nailed on the shoulder or back, and I strike people in unarmored areas, quite by accident.

[Big One]

My argument is even if the opponent blocking with elbow but I rather abandon my cut than hurting him. Like I said, it ain't worth it.

[Shazzanzzz]

My argument is even if the opponent blocking with elbow but I rather abandon my cut than hurting him. Like I said, it ain't worth it.

If someone is going to whack at my elbow even when my doh isn't open, i would probalby let him hit it, haha (in jigeiko). Like you said, it ain't worth it. Although usually i can block those pretty easily and then go for men afterwards.

[MAZ77]

:cyclops:
Although usually i can block those pretty easily and then go for men afterwards.

That there is the key. Whether the giver of this is doing it purposely or unintentionally, it is 95% of the time the fault of the receiver. If you have enough time to bob your head or move your elbow down, or contort your body in a way that exposes the wrong part of your body, then you have enough time to block it properly; or at least somewhat effectively to not get hit in a bad spot. In the event they are hitting something closed and you get hit, well again, you should have parried it rather than just stand there.

But as my sensei says, you cant parry everything so that is where my 5% differential comes into play.

[Shazzanzzz]

:cyclops:

That there is the key. Whether the giver of this is doing it purposely or unintentionally, it is 95% of the time the fault of the receiver. If you have enough time to bob your head or move your elbow down, or contort your body in a way that exposes the wrong part of your body, then you have enough time to block it properly; or at least somewhat effectively to not get hit in a bad spot. In the event they are hitting something closed and you get hit, well again, you should have parried it rather than just stand there.

But as my sensei says, you cant parry everything so that is where my 5% differential comes into play.

It's the attacker's fault to hurt someone. I think of it as someone shooting a bullet. Doesn't matter if it's meant to hit this particular person, if the person's hit, the person's still hurt, and it's still shooter's fault.

[MAZ77]

It's the attacker's fault to hurt someone. I think of it as someone shooting a bullet. Doesn't matter if it's meant to hit this particular person, if the person's hit, the person's still hurt, and it's still shooter's fault.

That is speaking in a context of something that is ultimately almost impossible to dodge. I do not believe kendo cuts fall into this category. Obviously there is intent on the attacker, thus placing fault on him, but the fault of getting hit is the receiver.

[Kuma]

You two are talking about two different things, as well. One says getting hurt is the issue the other says it's getting hit. If someone is badly injured in kendo is seems obvious that this would most likely not be the victim's fault. However, I agree with the point about blocking correctly that MAZ77 made.

It seems that what is truly at issue here is a debate over lazy kendo or an attitude that does not reflect someone's view of the spirit of kendo. These are matters of opinion for the most part, and you know what they say about opinions... :tongue:

[satsumaruma]

Mind.

Pain is a great motivator.

Put your hand on something red hot by accident when you are a kid, it hurts - you don't do it again. Lesson learned.

If somebody hits you too hard deliberately, kick the crap out of them. Not kendo; really hit them. Do old school kendo if you like and don't stop until the stupid tosser is squealing in a corner. He/she will not hit you like that again.

Somebody who once frequented these forums used to come to our dojo and was being very belligerant in his practice shall we say. After a few minutes hoping he would calm it down, his opponent got really pissed off at him, threw down his shinai and grabbed hold of him by the neck and threatened to pull of various parts of his anatomy. Of Course he then rrealised that apologoies were due to the Sensei but.......and here's the point. His numpty opponent stopped hitting him like he was nail to be hammered.

Of course you could also sue for assault - there are certainly precedents in the UK and i guess the US may well have similar.

[Neil Gendzwill]

now, i don't agree with this. let's give a twist to the original question: ¿if your opponent genuinely and commitedly goes for the good strike in the correct area and you block with your body or bend your head and end up hurt, is it still the opponents fault?If you cover target with an unarmoured body part and get hurt, it's your fault. Especially doh. When instructing, we advise using tenouchi to stop the cut just into the target for men and kote. No such thing for doh - you are cutting through, the cut has to be clear and strong. If you choose to block it with your elbow and end up with a bruise, too bad for you.

Different case for somebody repeatedly attacking doh when there is no opening, of course.

[EBP2K2]

IMO I'm yet to see people get hurt with hit to shoulder or from wild doh cut..

most of the time it seems people get hurt from getting stuck the wrong way as they collide/tai-a-tari, or rolling their ankle, stepping on hakama, etc.

well, bruise doesnt count as getting hurt, right? lol

[icy_flame]

I've been in that situation too, this Friday my partner during Jigieko continued to try and hit tsuki over and over hitting maybe once or twice but for the most part completely missing. Eventually you adapt to it - but it's painful getting there.

[hyuna]

Somebody who once frequented these forums used to come to our dojo and was being very belligerant in his practice shall we say. After a few minutes hoping he would calm it down, his opponent got really pissed off at him
So, the guy was "very belligerant," his opponent just accepted it for a few minutes, and then acted out? How do you know that the guy would not have responded to a simple request not to hit so hard?

[JSchmidt]

That is speaking in a context of something that is ultimately almost impossible to dodge. I do not believe kendo cuts fall into this category. Obviously there is intent on the attacker, thus placing fault on him, but the fault of getting hit is the receiver.

If the attacker is attacking a target that isn't open (do being the most obvious example), then it's most definitly the fault of the attacker!

[satsumaruma]

So, the guy was "very belligerant," his opponent just accepted it for a few minutes, and then acted out? How do you know that the guy would not have responded to a simple request not to hit so hard?

Arthur,
my apologies, I should have made my rather lengthy piece even longer ( not being risque BTW).

The 'guy' was told that he was hitting too hard but he responded by saying "deal with it". hence the reaction. His opponent did deal with it.:ko:

[hyuna]

The 'guy' was told that he was hitting too hard but he responded by saying "deal with it". hence the reaction. His opponent did deal with it.:ko:
Indeed he did! Wow.

[Hiro]

i like the pain

[Kyung]

Mind.

Pain is a great motivator.

Put your hand on something red hot by accident when you are a kid, it hurts - you don't do it again. Lesson learned.

If somebody hits you too hard deliberately, kick the crap out of them. Not kendo; really hit them. Do old school kendo if you like and don't stop until the stupid tosser is squealing in a corner. He/she will not hit you like that again.

Somebody who once frequented these forums used to come to our dojo and was being very belligerant in his practice shall we say. After a few minutes hoping he would calm it down, his opponent got really pissed off at him, threw down his shinai and grabbed hold of him by the neck and threatened to pull of various parts of his anatomy. Of Course he then rrealised that apologoies were due to the Sensei but.......and here's the point. His numpty opponent stopped hitting him like he was nail to be hammered.

Of course you could also sue for assault - there are certainly precedents in the UK and i guess the US may well have similar.

He could've just disrespected him and walk out on the sparring/practice against him. But the option he chose sounds more refreshing and if I knew I could get away with that I would've done it myself.

[mark]

I was a little disturbed about two recent threads, one about covering target areas and one about head dodging. Seems like a lot of people's answer to those things are to hurt the person doing it.

I think your question should be expanded a bit...If someone is doing something he/she shouldn't should you hurt the person doing it.

For example... If a person consistently does a doh when there is no opening and hits you in the elbow... do you do the same? If they consistently tare-tare with their kote in your men.... If they have no control of tsuki and insist on doing it anyway consistently scratching your throat...

Then there is the issue of rank... I've seen sensei's give necklases in response to missed tsuki. When it is appropriate when is it not?

[Landorph]

its a good thing that kendo is not in olympics or has heaps and heaps of $$$$ involved like football or something..

If that happens,, trust me.. people will want to hurt you just so they can win. It is the sad sad truth.. and people do it even now in competitions, and there's not even $ involved, but just personal pride..

Dont eva refer kendo as a sport.. if it is a sport.. then it is okay to hurt them to win. (like football, like boxing, like whateva thing you think is out there.. - except stuff like archery or rifle shooting i think. :silly: )

[mark]

its a good thing that kendo is not in olympics or has heaps and heaps of $$$$ involved like football or something..

If that happens,, trust me.. people will want to hurt you just so they can win. It is the sad sad truth.. and people do it even now in competitions, and there's not even $ involved, but just personal pride..

Dont eva refer kendo as a sport.. if it is a sport.. then it is okay to hurt them to win. (like football, like boxing, like whateva thing you think is out there.. - except stuff like archery or rifle shooting i think. :silly: )
A collegue once noted that kendo would change if ANY money was involved. I suspect he woud be right even if the purse was in the $20 range.

[nodachi]

... if it is a sport.. then it is okay to hurt them to win. (like football, like boxing, like whateva thing you think is out there.. - except stuff like archery or rifle shooting i think. :silly: )

I know this is commentary of how people act in competitive sports nowadays, but it still isn't ok to hurt people to win in sports... It's what people do, but that doesn't make it right. It only makes people __holes.