Punishment for latecomers?

[mark]

In a another thread Kenzan mentioned that latecomers to his dojo were punished.

Naturally, the Shinai Spanking Gauntlet of Death.
:D
Actually, after final Rei, latecomers must do 100 Haya Suburi in front of the whole class.

Does your dojo have special treatment for latecomers?

[JSchmidt]

No. While punctuality is desired, people have jobs, lifes etc that will come first.
To punish people for that will just turn people away.

[JCM]

Yes, we send Liam Neeson and his ninja squad to look for them (see Batman Begins)

Only joking, is not the case for us, maybe you can make this a poll thread?

[h2o]

If someone always are late, then I'd talk to them. Otherwise I am just happy that they got to practice, even if they were a tad bit late.

[Kenzan]

I see it as a good thing.
If Kendo is about molding one's character, why not have consequences for being late? After all, if you were late to your job, there certainly would be consequences, if you were late to an educational class, same thing.
If all of the Senseis can be on time, every time, why should not the same thing be expected of the students?

[Obulco]

In a another thread Kenzan mentioned that latecomers to his dojo were punished.


Does your dojo have special treatment for latecomers?

No. At the 4 dojos I attend with regularity, they do not do anything about people being late. Most people come on time and, when they cannot make it, they know what to do (or not to do) in order to not interrupt the ongoing class.

[R Stroud]

My conclusion is that there is a place for being strict with class starting time, and attendence, and a place to not worry about it. It relates to the appropriate activity for each particular dojo.

If the dojo is a collegiate team training for competition, or a national/regional team then yes, the coach/manager should be tracking this. In this case, there are other people trying to get on the team and others with a better attendence and practice ethic who should be allow to be on the team.

But in the case of a working man's dojo, or a general community type dojo, I believe that being late or missing are just a part of what it takes to manage life, work, family, and kendo. But of course the expectation is that everyone do their best to get to class ahead of time to clean the floor, set up bogu, etc.

A good example of the later is Noma Dojo in Tokyo, because the keiko starts at 7:00 AM, and the commute is so long, many people get there late. And many have to leave before the 8:00 AM stopping time during the week because they have to be somewhere for work. At this dojo, people come and practice, there is no warm up, there are no basic drills, just one hour of keiko. So it is pretty much up to each participant to get there and be ready.

However, what I see happening at a lot of dojo outside of Japan is that a strict application of rules for attendence and lateness are applied. In my opinion this is because the people in charge are simply recreating the type of training environment they went thru when in Japan or when they came up as a youngster.

This is something that the dojo sensei needs to discuss and work out so that it is aligned with the make up of the membership and the training goals at their club.

[Blamps]

In a another thread Kenzan mentioned that latecomers to his dojo were punished.


Does your dojo have special treatment for latecomers?

What does this acheive other than humiliating the person like an army sergeant major would when he tells one of his recruits to 'drop down and give him 50?'

[MikeW]

No, we (at least the UNC dojo) don't have any punishment for being late.

[The great I AM]

Whilst I would prefer if everyone who came to UCL was on time, I have to think of two things:

1) This is recreation, a hobby, not a job, not education. To penalise someone excessively will without fail mean that they will simply not bother coming the next time they risk running late.

2) It will turn people off.

I would rather keep a healthey active and friendly club than turn people away or act like a time-nazi.

[Kenzan]

What does this acheive other than humiliating the person like an army sergeant major would when he tells one of his recruits to 'drop down and give him 50?'

I think that it shows that there are standards, accountability, and consequences, just like everywhere else.

[h2o]

1) This is recreation, a hobby, not a job, not education. To penalise someone excessively will without fail mean that they will simply not bother coming the next time they risk running late.
What he said...

I guess the "drop down and give me 50" discipline might work in a few places. In my club I think that would quite soon lead to very few practicing people...

[h2o]

I think that it shows that there are standards, accountability, and consequences, just like everywhere else.
I can get half an hour late for my classes at the university and I would not be spanked or get extra homework from the teacher. I think it is punishment enough that I miss interesting and important parts of his class.

Also, I have never heard of anyone getting fired for being late once in a while. If you are constantly being late, that is another issue, but I don't see the point in punishing people for being late once in a while.

[Frame]

i'd rather have someone turn up to our club 5 minutes late every practice than someone who turns up on time once a month.

Sometimes being late is unavoidable, the tube line breaks down

Remember most clubs have problems getting people turning up in the first place.

[Dervish]

In the case of New York City, being late is simply a fact of life.

[Obulco]

I think that it shows that there are standards, accountability, and consequences, just like everywhere else.

The priority should be to conduct a fine practice without interruptions. If the class does not suffer, only the late comers suffer the consequences of not taking full advantage of class time. In my experience, for most adults, a system based on mutual trust works fine. For the occasional abusers of the system, there are ways in which a competent instructor can deal with them without resorting to public displays of punishment.

[Kenzan]

My feeling is, regardless of how Kendo itself is viewed by the individual, if an organization allows it members to participate strictly on their own terms, then what is the purpose of Kendo?

If on the one hand, one of the purposes of Kendo is to:
"mold the mind and body, and to cultivate a vigorous spirit", and on the other hand, we just say: "Just show up whenever you feel like it."
What's the point of having scheduled times for Keiko at all?

Bottom line is for me, my Sensei's show up to practice almost every Keiko on time unless it's an urgent issue and they are present and ready to spend their precious time to instruct me. They all have jobs or school or something else they could be doing.
The least I can do is honor their efforts by trying to showing up to the Dojo on time.
And if being late can't be helped, In my mind, making the atonement of Haya Suburi as it were is not purposeful humiliation, but more as a symbolic gesture that "my time" and "my classmates" time and "my Sensei's" time in the Dojo is recognized and important.
The physical act also serves as a reminder.

As far as being embarrassed about standing up in front of people, I have learned that this is a weakness. It only makes me stronger to battle it.

[Obulco]

My feeling is, regardless of how Kendo itself is viewed by the individual, if an organization allows it members to participate strictly on their own terms, then what is the purpose of Kendo?.

It is not their own terms, Kenzan. As Stroud-sensei pointed out, a good instructor aligns the make up of the membership with the goal of the club. As long as there is understanding and consistency in all parties, it works. And I am sure that it also works fine in your club as the system is followed by all. I just do not think that there is necessarily a direct connection with the heart of Kendo.

[Kenzan]

It is not their own terms, Kenzan. As Stroud-sensei pointed out, a good instructor aligns the make up of the membership with the goal of the club.


I can't really comment on that statement because I am not a Sensei.
What I can say is that it is rare and precious privilege of learning Kendo from some of the most experienced and dedicated teachers of our time. I think it's safe to say that I can trust their judgment.

[namabiru]

No, no punishment at my dojo either. It's great that people make the effort to get to practice, and don't just say 'stuff it' if they're going to be late. We do just ask people that, if they know they're going to be late, to send a quick e-mail or get Sempai on the horn so we don't worry that they've gotten into trouble or need help. But if they can't, they can't, and no big deal.

But, to come back to an earlier comment about cultivating manners and/or emulating conditions in Japanese-customed dojos, we had one of our young students come late to practice, and rather than merely sneaking onto the practice floor like he wanted to do, I did make sure he verbally greeted his teammates with a nice loud 'good evening' and a 'I'm sorry I'm late' after we had finished the waza we were practicing and in rotation. Or, at least, in my Japan dojo, this behavior was expected.

I lead by example, though. I was late one night due to my job running over, and did the same thing I had just expected from my kohai, so no lack of practicing what I preach.

[A Wadlow]

Punishments are stupid. Adults shouldn't be treated like kids as they are there 100% out of choice. People turn up late to our club as they work or have a valid reason. If it was a kids club fair enough, make them sweep the floor afterwards.

Turning up drunk is worse.

[JCM]

Well, there are compromises, although we are not corrected for being a bit late, is expected that on the next rotation you bow to the Sempai leading the class (he will nod back if is ok for you to join in) and that we do not disrupt the class doing so, is straight in without making a fuss but being respectful to your Dojo mates.

I think the problem outside Japan is that is hard to get new people in, so we are probably a bit pampered

[namabiru]

Yeah, fair enough there. I don't think that being sure to greet before joining the practice is a punishment, though. Or at least the adults don't in my dojo--they don't just sneak in, they greet. It was only our 8-year-old kenshi, who tried to sneak quietly in without saying boo, that I asked 'Did you greet your teammates', and when he said no, I said please do so. That was it.

[JCM]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say is a punishment, is just expected reigi

[Kenzan]

It may be just semantics, but I don't see it as a punishment at all, because if it were considered as such, you're right, that's kids stuff.
I see is as simply being held accountable to standards of a club, that's all.

Though I can't help but wonder (and this is JUST ME ONLY) if a sort of person who disdains being held accountable for their actions would be a positive addition to to any organization in the long run, and what's the real reason behind not wishing to accept accountability for one's actions? Pride?

I wonder, if a person is taking a cavalier attitude toward accountability, could it be safe to say that most likely the same behavior is manifesting itself elsewhere in that person's life?

Don't we tend to see being accountable in most societies as the more mature of behaviors? Isn't it more mature to accept consequences, learn from them and carry on?
In this sense, could it not be said that those who disdain the consequences for their actions and instead, discarding them or worse, avoiding them, see consequences as punishments rather than accountability?

(I am speaking as a person like most other people, hasn't always had the courage to accept responsibility for my actions in all areas.)

[JSchmidt]

Kenzan, I'm in a hurry (to avoid being late at the dojo!), but I think you are putting far too much emphasis on to something which is essentially a hobby.
People have lives, you know.

[Kenzan]

Kenzan,...but I think you are putting far too much emphasis on to something which is essentially a hobby.
.

A mere Hobby you say?!

Blasphemy!

Guards! Seize the Infidel!
..Into the Volcano with you!
LOL
:D

[Blamps]

It may be just semantics, but I don't see it as a punishment at all, because if it were considered as such, you're right, that's kids stuff.
I see is as simply being held accountable to standards of a club, that's all.

Though I can't help but wonder (and this is JUST ME ONLY) if a sort of person who disdains being held accountable for their actions would be a positive addition to to any organization in the long run, and what's the real reason behind not wishing to accept accountability for one's actions? Pride?

I wonder, if a person is taking a cavalier attitude toward accountability, could it be safe to say that most likely the same behavior is manifesting itself elsewhere in that person's life?

Don't we tend to see being accountable in most societies as the more mature of behaviors? Isn't it more mature to accept consequences, learn from them and carry on?
In this sense, could it not be said that those who disdain the consequences for their actions and instead, discarding them or worse, avoiding them, see consequences as punishments rather than accountability?

(I am speaking as a person like most other people, hasn't always had the courage to accept responsibility for my actions in all areas.)


You speak of accountability as if its of a political or even legal type yet such accountability is not always appropriate in everyday life. Yes one should be accountable for what they do if it is wrong and is a product of their choice but what if it is not? As an example, I do not consider turning up late to practice as a result of uni work or the shoddy transport system to be a wrong or less than that, a product of my own free will, which I should hold myself accountable for. Accountability in everyday life doesn't necessarily imply being responsible for omissions which you have no contol over and as such is not applied in a blanket sort of way like it is with politicians where they have to be responsible for things even if it is not their fault.


Also, about before when you were talking about your sensei volunteering his time and being one of the most "experienced and dedicated teachers of our time"... correct me if I am wrong, but the way you phrase things, in general, makes me presume that you see your sensei as not getting anything out of volunteering his time and that he is just teaching for the sake of it. No matter how experienced your teacher is,as far as I can tell, he is still going to get something out of keiko, whether that be pure enjoyment, satisfaction or learning something, which is a partly a product of his students turning up to practice and participating as best as they can. You have to remember that we are also volunteering our time which benefits our teacher as well and vice versa, although ettiquette dictates that we owe more obligations to him than he does us in a kendo sense.

[Kenzan]

You speak of accountability as if its of a political or even legal type yet such accountability is not always appropriate in everyday life. Yes one should be accountable for what they do if it is wrong and is a product of their choice but what if it is not? As an example, I do not consider turning up late to practice as a result of uni work or the shoddy transport system to be a wrong or less than that, a product of my own free will, which I should hold myself accountable for. Accountability in everyday life doesn't necessarily imply being responsible for omissions which you have no contol over and as such is not applied in a blanket sort of way like it is with politicians where they have to be responsible for things even if it is not their fault.


It is my own personal belief that when you get right down to it, each of us is responsible for everything thing that happens in our lives. All of it.



Also, about before when you were talking about your sensei volunteering his time and being one of the most "experienced and dedicated teachers of our time"... correct me if I am wrong, but the way you phrase things, in general, makes me presume that you see your sensei as not getting anything out of volunteering his time and that he is just teaching for the sake of it.


I did not mean to convey this at all.
Rather, that as my Sensei put it to me: "I am here to teach, and you are here to learn." I take this very seriously. Here is another person, who is taking their time (and who of us knows how much time any of us have?) and energy to impart something of himself to me. I consider this a gift. In return, my Sensei's) certainly receive something from me. What that is, I can only guess, as he is much, much older and wiser than myself.

[dwez]

I was late for my first lesson after my nine year hiatus, it didn't go down well but when I explained I lived an hour away and had not driven in nine years my sensei said well just try to be on time.


The priority should be to conduct a fine practice without interruptions. If the class does not suffer, only the late comers suffer the consequences of not taking full advantage of class time.

That to me is the major insentive not to be late.


Bottom line is for me, my Sensei's show up to practice almost every Keiko on time unless it's an urgent issue and they are present and ready to spend their precious time to instruct me. They all have jobs or school or something else they could be doing.
The least I can do is honor their efforts by trying to showing up to the Dojo on time.

But one's sensei will invariably have a dojo that is more local to them than it is to you. He will set up in a place that is convenient with a potential student base, I would assume. It would be ideal that his students are local but some will have to commute and therfore are subject to the vagaries of that journey.

Lateness is certainly not ideal and I believe certain things do require punishment, quiite frankly I relish the punishment of press-ups. We have all been instructed for events with visiting sensei to be on time and there will be consequences if we are not, that is understood and accepted. In general though there are some things out of our control. Like the Great one said, punishing people for that will just put them off. Better to have latemcomers who try [a word you yourself acknowledge] to be on time than no students at all!

[michaelm]

While I may be prepared to come to class on time, what is often out of my control are lengthy business meetings, client interactions, deadlines, inclement weather, and for anyone living in a metropolitan area, traffic. These things are usually the reason for any tardiness to kendo practice.

Still, these other responsibilities and commitments are how I pay the mortgage and put food in my kids' mouths. What kind of person would I be, and what would my sensei think of me if I put kendo before family and work? Like many others have said, our dojo also understands that people have lives outside of kendo, and being late to a recreational activity does not compare to shunning one's real responsibilities.

If we are late, however, we have been instructed to be as non-disruptive as possible--ie, do not stomp through the middle of a lesson, wait for beginning reiho and mokuso to complete before entering the training area, prepare and bow-in out of the way, join the practice as discreetly as possible, and apologize to the sensei when appropriate.

Among respectful adults, making a public spectacle of being late would seem to be more disrespectful than the act itself.

[aside: Our dojo is comprised of mostly adult working professionals; we do not have a separate youth class.]

-michael

[A Wadlow]

While I may be prepared to come to class on time, what is often out of my control are lengthy business meetings, client interactions, deadlines, inclement weather, and for anyone living in a metropolitan area, traffic. These things are usually the reason for any tardiness to kendo practice.

Still, these other responsibilities and commitments are how I pay the mortgage and put food in my kids' mouths. What kind of person would I be, and what would my sensei think of me if I put kendo before family and work? Like many others have said, our dojo also understands that people have lives outside of kendo, and being late to a recreational activity does not compare to shunning one's real responsibilities.

If we are late, however, we have been instructed to be as non-disruptive as possible--ie, do not stomp through the middle of a lesson, wait for beginning reiho and mokuso to complete before entering the training area, prepare and bow-in out of the way, join the practice as discreetly as possible, and apologize to the sensei when appropriate.

Among respectful adults, making a public spectacle of being late would seem to be more disrespectful than the act itself.

[aside: Our dojo is comprised of mostly adult working professionals; we do not have a separate youth class.]

-michael

That is almost word for word what I was going to say. But you did it with less typos then I would.


and apologize to the sensei when appropriate.

This is the most important thing. There are no guidelines for things like this. No written code saying "the moment you walk in, find the sensei, bow your arse off, kiss his feet etc". Like anything, if your sorry your late just say "sorry I was late, office work etc." in the changing room/pub after. It is a hobby and I will treat it like a hobby which I respect.

[Kenzan]

What kind of person would I be, and what would my sensei think of me if I put kendo before family and work?


Here's a question; What would your family think of you if you picked and chose at your convenience, only the things you wished to and wished not to be held accountable for? (Of course we do this all the time as a matter of practicality, with family life filled with more "have to do" than "want to do") But as a father and husband myself, I'm often made painfully aware of the times when I am not holding to account my own personal standards or the standards that I have agreed to hold to based upon my commitments.



Like many others have said, our dojo also understands that people have lives outside of kendo, and being late to a recreational activity does not compare to shunning one's real responsibilities.


I suppose this speaks to how each one of us holds the value of which we receive from practice.
On my part, I see each Kendo practice as an metaphor for the encapsulation of what is going on in my life, with mostly the parts I dislike popping up for me to deal with. It seems that every time I practice, I genuinely learn something about myself that I did not know before.
So in terms of the accountability portion, I take it as also part of my practice, which, I wholeheartedly believe the exercise of doing Haya-Suburi when late as a consequence provides something much more than I can articulate here, in terms of reflection. So at least in my case, the indignation for having to stand up in front of everyone is outweighed by my belief that it is also an extension of my training. Additionally, it is an excellent ego buster.



Among respectful adults, making a public spectacle of being late would seem to be more disrespectful than the act itself.


I think this may be more of a cultural issue, in that from what I know, this is fairly common practice in eastern cultures, Japan particularly, even in other sports. Again, I think it having to do with Ego-busting.



[aside: Our dojo is comprised of mostly adult working professionals; we do not have a separate youth class.]
-michael

If I understand the underlying sentiment here, I think it's perhaps an error to equate "accountability" with "punishment" and therefore with being treated in child-like fashion.

[enkorat]

When I first started kendo, beginners were expected to arrive 20 minutes early (Before anyone else) and sweep the floor. If I didn't come "on time" (early), I was yelled at. Not like a few words, the full on 5 minute yelling version in front of everyone else in the club. By more than one person. More than once. I was also in my early 20s at the time, had graduated college and was working full time, not too long ago. It was a hard way of learning kendo.

To this day I get very nervous if I am even close to being late to practice.

Sometimes, the parking lot is full, the roads are icy, or there is an accident on the road.

The club where I practice primarily now, we put into place a policy that if you arrived late, you cannot join a warmup already in progress, and you have to warm up completely on your own. This isn't "punishment", but more to ensure that people don't try to cut warmup short and end up injuring themselves. I'm sure some people feel awkward though, and for them its "punishment" enough.

Another policy we put into place after a suggestion by our sensei was that we always start practice exactly the same time every week, down to the minute.

A few times per year we get a few people who we've never seen before show up a half an hour before the end of practice and essentially go "Hi! Can I just do gigeiko with you guys?" Last time that happened, our sensei said "you can watch this week, come on time next week" Strangely enough we never saw them again.

In the end, I always try to come early so that I can set a good example. The few times that I have been late, I feel really bad and I apologize to the club afterwards.

When I was younger, dedication seemed to be an easy thing, because I was only dedicated to one or two things. Now as I've gotten older and more and more things demand my attention and time, I find that what I want to do, and what I need to do are sometimes two different things.

If I were to neglect my work or my school life for kendo, which is a hobby of which I enjoy, thats failing to be dedicated to my life, and I think irresponsible in its own way.

Thats of course different from the "oh man, its 6:45 AM on a Saturday morning and I have to get ready to go to practice", but I'll I'm losing is some sleep and some other play time really. If we were to have practices during the week at night I'm sure I'd have to choose more often between what I want to do and what I need to do.

[MAZ77]

It is not a punishment we are inflicting on latecomers. God knows, I am a habitual latecomer and will always be. But everyone undertands that there will be times when you are late and everyone also understands that if you are late, you will do haya suburi. Everyone accepts it and does not view it as negative. With so many dojos in southern california, if this doesnt suit you, you can easily change dojos to one more practical to your situation. Again, its not a punishment. Moreover, how many people that you know that are late (and mind you we are talking in excess of 15 minutes after the standad start time) actually stretch and do a regimen of suburi, siayumen, haya suburi etc? Not too many in my view.

To us, its more of a makeup of the 100 haya suburi we did at warmup that you missed.

[Alison2805]

My feeling is, regardless of how Kendo itself is viewed by the individual, if an organization allows it members to participate strictly on their own terms, then what is the purpose of Kendo?

If on the one hand, one of the purposes of Kendo is to:
"mold the mind and body, and to cultivate a vigorous spirit", and on the other hand, we just say: "Just show up whenever you feel like it."
What's the point of having scheduled times for Keiko at all?

Bottom line is for me, my Sensei's show up to practice almost every Keiko on time unless it's an urgent issue and they are present and ready to spend their precious time to instruct me. They all have jobs or school or something else they could be doing.
The least I can do is honor their efforts by trying to showing up to the Dojo on time.
And if being late can't be helped, In my mind, making the atonement of Haya Suburi as it were is not purposeful humiliation, but more as a symbolic gesture that "my time" and "my classmates" time and "my Sensei's" time in the Dojo is recognized and important.
The physical act also serves as a reminder.

As far as being embarrassed about standing up in front of people, I have learned that this is a weakness. It only makes me stronger to battle it.

Im surprised noone agrees with Kenzan on this stuff. I do, and our sensei (before he retired with injury) was a stickler for being on time. He worked long hours, had 3 kids and other interests but made the effort to be on time, and expected us to as well. Although he didnt yell at anyone who was late (thats a bit much) you would know that youre not his favourite person for the evening, and get a brief talking to afterwards.

Now that he's no longer there and noone gets cranky if youre late, people who used to be on time dont bother. Its annoying. Our practise starts at 7, plenty of time to get there after work.

Everyone seems to have the attitude on this thread that you dont need to be on time for anything if work or family get in the way, and its just too hard to try. I cant get my head around that. I would never consider being late for a class, meeting, work, or kendo, dinner date etc, unless something completely out of my control occurs. And there isnt much in life that I cant control in some way! You may say "but I have kids" - my mother had 5, worked and had many many hobbies AND WE WERE NEVER LATE TO ANYTHING. EVER. Its a skill you teach your kids by example.

I be on time because I consider it rude to do otherwise. Get your shit into gear! Your poop in a group! Make the effort! Its character building as they say. :D

[michaelm]

Kenzan, I do commend you for taking your kendo practice and your sensei's time so seriously. I can't argue with that sentiment.



I think this may be more of a cultural issue, in that from what I know, this is fairly common practice in eastern cultures...having to do with Ego-busting. Interesting...
My family are all Asian immigrants. From my experience, I can say that this ego-busting attitude does not apply to how I was raised. Many sensei and members here in the Seattle area are of Japanese/Korean/Chinese ancenstry, some of them also first-generation immigrants, and some are visiting Japanese nationals. I don't get the feeling that ego-busting is a prevalent attitude among them either.
(Maybe my experience is an exception, and we're all just a bunch of tree-hugging hippies up here in the Pacific Northwest.)

I can also say that I love kendo and have the utmost respect for my sensei, dojo-mates, and all the facilities we have at our avail; it is an important and integral part of my life. I am never late because of sheer laziness or disrespect.

Back to my comment: "What kind of person would I be, and what would my sensei think of me if I put kendo before family and work?"

I'll rephrase that by directly quoting my sensei:
"Family, work, then kendo--that order!"


Also, my description of our dojo membership as adult working professionals was added because I understand that all dojo are not the same and that a dojo's culture may evolve differently with a different mix of people. Yes, in our dojo and others I've seen the occasional person (usually a teenager) swagger in late and commit a whole list of dubious acts. This is usually handled by the sensei or sempai taking this person aside and talking to them privately. Claiming ignorance is only afforded them the first time.

As enkorat has said, and similarly in our dojo, the embarrassment factor is quite heavy when you walk in and everyone is already engaged quite seriously in their practice. I do my best to avoid this, of course, but there are times when it is unavoidable. Sometimes, when I am exceptionally late, and guage that joining keiko would be too much of a disruption, I'll just sit, watch, and take notes.


-michael

[mark]

We are an adultt community dojo. We assume that everyone does their best to be on time. If someone is late, they do muxo, warm up on their own and then join practice with little or no disruption.




But, to come back to an earlier comment about cultivating manners and/or emulating conditions in Japanese-customed dojos, we had one of our young students come late to practice, and rather than merely sneaking onto the practice floor like he wanted to do, I did make sure he verbally greeted his teammates with a nice loud 'good evening' and a 'I'm sorry I'm late' after we had finished the waza we were practicing and in rotation. Or, at least, in my Japan dojo, this behavior was expected.


In your respone Namabiru, I guather that when someone comes in late they say a loud hello sorry I am late to the whole class. Am I correct?

[enkorat]

Trust me, I understand this postion very well, and sometimes I feel that way when I see someone who is "less dedicated" than I am in coming to keiko. I think though, that I'm not supposed to feel this way.

Perhaps with your members they would be more receptive to traditional methods of insuring dedication. But in a way, just like everything in kendo, there is always going to be someone more dedicated than me, and someone less dedicated than me.

Who am I to point fingers and say "you don't practice as much as I do" or "you always come late". Some people I know commute from another state to come to some of the practices I go to. Others drive 40-50 miles one way to come. When I was working and living in California, getting to practice at 7 from work when getting off at 5:30 was not a situation where there was "plenty of time".

And what do you do when your supervisor comes by and says "enkorat, we're concerned about your productivity". This happened to me once. What was I supposed to do then? Was I supposed to say say, "screw you, I'm gonna do kendo?" My sensei now would be appalled if I did so. He would say that by ignorning my other obligations I was actually not cultivating my spirit at all.

Our practices start precisely at 8:30 AM. If somoene comes late they miss part of practice and instruction. There are no "makeups" or "private lessons" (and yes, I've been asked). Those people end up not progressing as fast as their comrades, not put into bogu at the same time, end up losing in tournaments, not passing their promotional exams. Is that not "punishment" enough?

In the end, I think it is my responsibility to take care of my own training, and not to think about if I'm better or worse than other people. Yes, sometimes I think about someone being less dedicated than I, but again I don't think these are particularly good thoughts for me to have.

[shred_lord]

I am hardly ever late (maybe a couple of time's this year) and I worry about being late, and I'm ashamed if I am. However, I never been reprimanded for being late. I have been taught the importance of reigi and that's enough for me.

Nowadays I'd walk through fire to do kendo, but if I had been if I'd been subject to or witnessed the treatment kenzen has described when I started, I may never stuck it out.

Does that mean I'd be no loss to kendo if I quit now. Probably, I don't many people would be, in the grand scheme of things. But I'm like to think I'm not seen as unworthy.

P.S.
There is a vast difference between having to do a set warm up on your own if you're late, and have to do it in front of the class.

[kuzu70]

We punish students who come late, but not consistently. Sometimes the students get yelled at. Most of the time it is extra kakarikeiko. This is mainly for the kids. Some kids come with their parents and they slack for 20 to 30 minutes before starting keiko. This is when sensei gets pissed off. Sensei understands that when the older students are late, they have other daily commitments like work, and does not necessarily punish them.

[enkorat]

I should also probably mention so that people have a better idea of our club culture and history, that our sensei very much considers his teaching us a volunteer effort because kendo also for him is a hobby that he would like to impart.

We do not pay him, and on the few times that we've offered to cover certain expenses for him he has refused.

The consequence of this is that we as students feel enormously lucky that he's taking the time to teach us, and its very clear to most of the regular student members that he is teaching us in part because he wants to do so, and because we as students have asked him to. I am fairly confident that most of us regularly attending students realize that if we falter in our enthusiasm and desire to learn, he will simply decide not to teach us any more, and leave.

Perhaps this makes where I'm coming from a little more clear.

[Alison2805]

check out this lady - a very busy doctor who not only runs a business, gets 6 kids through highschool, deals with all the burns patients in the state and was Australian of the Year - she also still continues her hobby of running. Many kilometres every day (she told me in person, very inspirational).

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/science_archive.asp?pg=30&NID=207

[xvikingx]

I think that it shows that there are standards, accountability, and consequences, just like everywhere else.

In other words it should suck like everything else.
Why punish someone for being late? To hold them accountable? If they are late then they are missing out on practice, they have only themselves to hold accountable. Accept for weekend training, adults (meaning not students or seniors) are rarely on time because there are standards, accountability, and consequences at their jobs if they leave work unfinished to go play. I have a two hour commute so I almost never make it to practice on time. I should therefore be punished everyday? Fck that. Nobody has any beef with me, in fact they find it admirable that after working 10-13 hours I haul my ass all the way across Kansai and still give it my all at the dojo.

[nysamurai]

I must agree with what Dervish said earlier. Being a fellow New Yorker, being late around here is simply a fact of life. Generally, I would advocate the importance of punctuality to students. But "punishment", no. If someone is late because of their job, we would do well to remember that it is this persons discreationary income, derived from thei employment, that allows them to come to class in the first place, Just one example, and just one man's opinion.

[Frame]

Im surprised noone agrees with Kenzan on this stuff. ..

..cutty cut cut cut

...Get your shit into gear! Your poop in a group! Make the effort! Its character building as they say. :D

I think you're confusing it here, just because someone turns up late say a few times in the year doesn't mean they aren't making the effort. We're not saying that you don't have to be on time for stuff, we're saying when sh*t happens, then sh*t happens. If you get hit by a car i'm not going say "right, 3000 hayasubri, then blow me"

We have a practice that starts at 6pm, some people finish work at 6pm. Gonna punish them? Don't be stupid.

[michaelm]

I be on time because I consider it rude to do otherwise. Get your shit into gear!Wow, can I tell my boss this one?

Here's the conversation the next morning...

Boss: "Hey Michael, I just got a call from client So-and-so. They've informed us that we're being dropped because we didn't deliver on yesterday's last-minute requests. They're a good chunk of our revenue this year. The big boss called and said I've got to make up the numbers somehow...
Hmmm...your salary looks to be almost equal to the lost revenue..."

Me: "No, wait. I worked as late as I could but not too late so I can make it to kendo practice. I'm totally dedicated to that, man. It's like a microcosm of life, and if I fail there, I fail, period. I be on time because I consider it rude to do otherwise. Got my shit into gear!"

Boss: "Wow. Such dedication. You know, I think we'll just take Milton Waddams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/quotes) off the payroll and see if he notices. Keep up the good work. You got practice again today? Yeah? Go ahead and take off early. Don't wanna be late."

[Alison2805]

Our practise starts at 7, plenty of time to get there after work.

remember this bit?

[Frame]

Yes because everyones practice starts at seven and everyone has plenty of time to get there after work because everyone finishes work at the same time.

[Alison2805]

I was refering to people who think its acceptable to be late for things in general.

If I want to go to a 6pm training I let the boss know I have to leave 1/2 hour earlier and will come ito work 1/2 hour earlier in the day. I manage my time so I can have everything done by the time it needs to be. This isnt so impossible for most people.

Frame, I agree that using the example of giving hiyasuburi as punishment for being hit by a car is "stupid". If you want to debate something try to keep it logical. Theres no reason to get upset.

I personally think being late is rude. Nothing to flame a person for.

[Alison2805]

Yes because everyones practice starts at seven and everyone has plenty of time to get there after work because everyone finishes work at the same time.

Calm down. Take some deep breaths.

[enkorat]

remember this bit?

Um...

Do you *really* want this thread to become a "I'm more dedicated to kendo than you are, so NYAW!!" thread?

I can play! But it would make me feel cheap and dirty...

[Frame]

But i don't think anyone here that has posted has the attitude that being late is acceptable. But it's just that at some point in your life you will be late for something be it kendo/work/whatever and there's no reason to punish them for it. Yes the hit by a car was a stupid situation but that was just a)for comedy and b)just over emphasising. Sometimes the tube(train) that your in just stops because some one in the station ahead fell onto the tracks and you're stuck there for ages, Yes I like to budget a bit of extra time into travel for delays but when they say stuff like

"i'm sorry there are no trains going to or from victoria station because there was a fire in wandsworth park". There is a good chance you will be late. Unless you left 4 hours early

[xvikingx]

I personally think being late is rude.

The point that seems to keep slipping by both you and Kenzan is that it is not possible for a lot of people to make it on time, whether they think it's rude or not. No body is saying that it's okay to show up when ever you like. Work and other real world responsibilities are far more important than kendo. Receiving punishment or having to show penitence for having higher priorities than keiko is ridiculous. If I came in late and started doing hayasuburi in front of everyone as atonement, first my dojo mates would think I was whacked, and then my sensei would tell me to get out of the way, quit wasting more time, line up, and fkn keiko with someone.
A lot of people here seem to think kendo should be more like boot camp, instead of fun.

[Alison2805]

Um...

Do you *really* want this thread to become a "I'm more dedicated to kendo than you are, so NYAW!!" thread?

I can play! But it would make me feel cheap and dirty...

Dont be rediculous.

The point Im trying to get across is that I think its ok to expect people to be on time, within reason. If a sensei wants his students to turn up on time, Id be happy with that.

Perhaps the issue here is more of a cultural thing. Perthites dont generally take trains to work - we drive or ride bikes. Traffic isnt too bad and its predictable (the trains are pretty good too). Everyone Ive talked to (I just quizzed everyone in my office over lunch) reckons being late out of BAD TIME ORGANISATION is unacceptable, even if its just meeting a friend for coffee.

So our sensei expecting people to be on time isnt very unreasonable.

So sorry to ruffle your feathers! Im obviously in a different situation to you grumpypants :silly: .

Is this the case where you are Kenzan - is it easy for everyone to get to kendo on time? Or is it a case of "too bad about the dead person onthe tracks"?

[Frame]

dude it's still seem to be going over you. I've been late about 2 times to kendo for the past 6 months training 3-5 times a week(which is about as far back as i can remember nowadays) I already said I budget time for delays and arriving early at the dojo means i get have a pleasant chat with everyone while we wait for the previous group(judo whatever) to leave. so stop trying to pass it off as people just using excuses to come late all the time.

On occassion people are late and there's no need to punish them

[nikozamo]

i never get late in the dojo, just a pair of times, always the earliest... punishment... i dont know if is acceptable or not, but when a group of people comes always late and you cany start the class is a problem.

[neko]

why can't you start class? unless of course you are the only one that arrives on time. if that is the case then perhaps you all should change the start time of the class. ;)

we do not punish/reprimand late comers. but if you take you time getting dressed once you are there, you will be yelled at for sure. damn i get yelled at the end of practice if i hold up second dojo.

i too get off work early on kendo days. but a lot of people do not have strict 9-5 jobs. some have those days that they have to work until it is done. if you have a job like that, work can be unpredictable. in those cases you would probably have an understanding with the sensei. but if that is your life and you do kendo at a strict dojo, then i guess you would have really nice haya-suburi.

[stuartwilson]

I asked a sensei once. He replied that one should never miss an opportunity for practice, however short.

At our dojo, the proper protocol for being late is to wait at the entrace until acknowledged by the sensei, then come in quietly, do your own mokuso, bow in, stretch if you are so inclined, then join in.

[MrChow]

Work is the only reason I can be late for keiko and that is usually once a week. Given that I am not usually late for keiko (once a fortnight at most) and kendo doesnt pay my bills, I think I am entitled to being able to show up late and not be reprimanded for it. At least I made it to keiko, I could just as easily head to the pub for beer which is oh so tempting when I get to the more than 5mins late point in time.

[A Wadlow]

I have been late a lot recently to practice, this is because of student work loads. But this is acceptible. It would be rude if I couldn't be botherd to turn up on time. If I had the choice and thought... "nah im going to go get a coke first."

Punishments are for the weak and petty. If you run a good enough club you wont need to make people feel bad for turning up late by using punishments. The action of turning up late should be an incentive enough to be there. I guess it depends who runs your club really...

[Wai]

Hi, I didn't read the whole thread. It is number of posts is amazing for 1 day.

I practice in two places. In one place, there is no punishment when someone is late. But the sensei will ask for the reason after the practice in private if it becomes a trend. Usually, people tell the sensei beforehand when they would be late for practice (usually 1 hour late due to class schedules).

In the second place, the punishment is haya-suburi at the end of practice. It is 50 or 100 haya-suburi (depending on how close it is to a shinsa or a taikai) for each of the following:

1) Being late
2) Each equipment failure (anything that comes loose)
3) Dropping the shinai
4) Being inattentive during keiko
5) Probably some others

Usually, when the sensei ask, "who needs to do haya-suburi ?", most of us would do it together although most of us didn't do anything wrong. It sucks to be the one sitting down when others volunteer to do the 'punishment'. Everyone must do it together and do it well. If someone miscount or being out of sync, we would do more together. We end together. So if someone's punishment is 100 and yours is only 50, you still have to do 100.

[michaelm]

The point Im trying to get across is that I think its ok to expect people to be on time, within reason...So our sensei expecting people to be on time isnt very unreasonable.
Yes, I agree on that. I don't think anyone has said the contrary. We all do our best to be on time.

The question started on this thread, at least how it's titled, is whether people should be punished for being late, and opening with kenzan's example, should people be punished publicly?

It looks like most people on this thread say no.

Alison, the reason I and others have jumped on your comments is because you've insinuated that those of us who don't have steady work hours and 100% predictable commute times are somehow less dedicated, inept, irresponsible, rude, and as you put it, "don't have our shit in gear."

[shred_lord]

If I want to go to a 6pm training I let the boss know I have to leave 1/2 hour earlier and will come ito work 1/2 hour earlier in the day. I manage my time so I can have everything done by the time it needs to be. This isnt so impossible for most people.

Not all jobs will let you do this, maybe the Boss simply doesn't like people working whatever hours suit them, or maybe they work on an assembly line where you need all the spots filled to the line to operate. I mean, it's lovely that you have an easy going work atmosphere, but not everyone has that.

[The great I AM]

On tuesdays, I use my once a week 4pm leave to get to a keiko with my sensei that starts at 6pm everyday. Sometimes I am late because I may not be able to leave at 4pm on the dot. He has never once said anything to me other than "Gibbo, Hurry up and get your men on, then kirikaeshi". NEVER. He's a highly experienced japanese nanadan, so I'll follow his example.

[JSchmidt]

I was refering to people who think its acceptable to be late for things in general.

Where did anyone state that?.

[Kyung]

Being late is inevitable if you work. However great kumdo might be, it shouldn't come before work. If you don't work you don't get paid and you can't do kumdo. And I think masters should understand that since they teach you for a fee.

[lucy]

I thnk Gibbo put it well. It seems that we all agree that people who care about kendo TRY to come on time, if they can't (work/school/traffic), well, they just have less time to train.
That's why I don't think punishment is appropriate.

We don't have anything like that at our dojo, not that I know of, at least. But I have never been really late, just a few minutes so that I had to hurry my warm up, practise starts at 7pm so to arrive at 6:55pm is already too late, but that's the most, usually. Then one just has to hurry changing. ;)

[Blamps]

But i don't think anyone here that has posted has the attitude that being late is acceptable. But it's just that at some point in your life you will be late for something be it kendo/work/whatever and there's no reason to punish them for it. Yes the hit by a car was a stupid situation but that was just a)for comedy and b)just over emphasising. Sometimes the tube(train) that your in just stops because some one in the station ahead fell onto the tracks and you're stuck there for ages, Yes I like to budget a bit of extra time into travel for delays but when they say stuff like

"i'm sorry there are no trains going to or from victoria station because there was a fire in wandsworth park". There is a good chance you will be late. Unless you left 4 hours early

That's just not good enough Frame. To 'walk the path of warrior' (insert additional relevant budo terminology here), you must make sacrifices to cover for such situations, and if that involves sleeping in the armour cupboard and conducting your life out of it then so be. Failing that, I have been lead to believe that you need to acquire a flux capacitor, a tardis or a time travelling phone booth operated by a dude named Rufus. Otherwise, according to the time gestapo, being late is always your fault.

The reason I am speaking like this is because I think the original point of the thread has been lost, as it inevitably always is, that being does punishment for being late actually make people turn up on time or even want to? Clearly, in the case of Alison's dojo, it didn't build up their 'character' or whatever 'please canonise me Mr pope' terminology is in fashion right now because those people who no longer turn up on time were only doing it before because:

a) They were brown nosing the sensei
b) They were scared of being embarrassed
C) They didn't want to get punished
d) They were scared of the sensei lowering his estimations of them which can be connected to a)

If it lead to character building, they would have turned up on time after the sensei retired from teaching the dojo. So the point is, people are not perfect and as adults, should be able to take the responsibility of being late upon themselves unless, in practicality, they have a reason that is not under their control which excuses them for being responsible or "accountable." I find it very unlikely that the majority of people who turn up late do so with the frankly pointless aim of just being late for the sake of it - I would have thought that it is either out of their control or ,if this excusable, completely unintentional. People who do it intentionally, as far as I can tell, would not be the sort of people who even chose to start kendo or, given that they have chosen to, pursue it much further than a few lessons.

[A Wadlow]

The worst punishment I got for being late is a wet towel whipping in the shower. Its worse if its your birthday in our club. That will be the end of you. We cooled it down after the last one were he collapsed and we had to carry him home. If the daily mail found out it would be on the front page.

[Blamps]

If the daily mail found out it would be on the front page.

And it would probably be accompanied with a headline blaming imigrants...

[The great I AM]

The worst punishment I got for being late is a wet towel whipping in the shower. Its worse if its your birthday in our club. That will be the end of you. We cooled it down after the last one were he collapsed and we had to carry him home. If the daily mail found out it would be on the front page.Thats a lie. We didn't cool anything down, people just stopped telling us.

[Kyung]

The worst punishment I got for being late is a wet towel whipping in the shower. Its worse if its your birthday in our club. That will be the end of you. We cooled it down after the last one were he collapsed and we had to carry him home. If the daily mail found out it would be on the front page.

Your dojangmates whipped him in the shower until he collapsed? for the birthday? Dang...so it would be like a funeral day if someone in your dojang gets married.

[namabiru]

.

In your respone Namabiru, I guather that when someone comes in late they say a loud hello sorry I am late to the whole class. Am I correct?

Mmm... kind of not so much. To us, a 'good evening' while bowing to come onto the floor is good enough. Then, like it seems others are doing here, a 'sorry I was late' afterwards is fine enough. I didn't put enough English in there. Sorry!

In my role as a sempai, I'm trying to teach our newcomers (mostly younger children) that it's polite to greet one's teammates with a 'good evening' when entering the dojo, instead of just walking in without a word said to no one--it cultivates mutual respect for oneself and one's teammates, and I feel it also boosts self-confidence.

And, to some point, it comes back to the training from my first dojo. We were expected to greet guests in between waza, and my teammates and I, who were mostly working mothers who couldn't help arriving late, made it a point to greet at the door. It was respectful. At the youth practice over in the gym, my sensei made a late student greet at the door, or he/she would have to do haya suburi. So, I guess out of respect and memory for my many sensei, and the appreciation I gained for showing respect to others by greeting with confidence (not necessarily loudly, but confidently) at the door, I am carrying that tradition over to my dojo now.

Old habits die hard, I suppose. I know I would feel really funny just bowing and scooting onto a practice floor without a greeting of any kind. Heck, I *still* find it awkward to enter another person's office without a bow or a shitsurei shimasu, or to look for things on another person's desk without this shitsurei shimasu. And you figure I stopped working for a Japanese company last July!!!

[xvikingx]

Heck, I *still* find it awkward to enter another person's office without a bow or a shitsurei shimasu, or to look for things on another person's desk without this shitsurei shimasu. And you figure I stopped working for a Japanese company last July!!!

Yeah, but do you bow when you are talking on the telelphone?

[namabiru]

Wow... I didn't read through the rest of the posts--I just replied to what Mark asked.

Um, guys, I kind of think this is getting blown out of proportion. Yes, it's important to be on time for things, and that definition changes depending on the culture. In the States, where I've decided mainstreamers are continually on the verge of Freakout Mode, yeah. 19.00 is 19.00. But it may also be individual dojo personality and taste. Yes, we do start warmups at 19.30 at my dojo, and that's made clear. If you're late, you're late, and no one waits.

Things happen. The train gets delayed. You get delayed at work. There's a traffic accident. You had to go to the drugstore before it closed at 6, because you had no other time to do it that week and you were almost out of your medicine. You just realized you had 2 days, not a week, to get an outline in for a poster presentation.

Whatever reason, you were late.

Isn't a quick 'excuse me for being late', or a 'I'm sorry I was late', or at the very least being sure to greet one's teammates before joining the practice sufficient?

Now, people who turn up late because they don't like haya suburi, so being late is a convenient way to get out of it, that's something different.

[namabiru]

Yeah, but do you bow when you are talking on the telelphone?

Oddly enough, yeah, I still catch myself doing that :happy: And when I talk to people I do it too. No, I'm not trying to show off or anything--it is just that engrained in me. Sometimes I still struggle to find words for what I want to say, and the first thing that pops into my head is Japanese, not English.

Do you know what I mean?

[xvikingx]

Do you know what I mean?

Yes I do. It almost feels like an OCD. I may end up throwing myself in front of a train one of these days.

[namabiru]

Yes I do. It almost feels like an OCD. I may end up throwing myself in front of a train one of these days.

Ha ha. Yeah. I was watching a J-drama last night (last season's Boku no Aruku Michi) and Teru's mama, boy, she's the poster child for bowing to the phone. Actually, J-dramas in general are quite amusing. :silly:

[Jundokan]

I feel I am positioned to view this from both sides of the equation.

In regards to Kendo I am a complete beginner (having trained for less than a year) and travel nearly an hour for my wife and I to get to the Kendo dojo. We do our best to be on time, but occasionally we have arrived late - our instructor has never reprimanded us and immediately welcomed us to join practice.

Outside Kendo I have been studying Japanese Bugei for more than 20 years and run a full time dojo. As a Sensei, of course I want my students to be on time but I understand that sometimes life gets in the way and people are late.

The simple rule for our dojo is that if someone arrives late they announce themselves by saying konba wa / konichi wa / ohayo gozaimasu (whichever is appropriate) and wait at the entrance of the dojo until they are acknowledged and welcomed to join practice.

The only time I deviate from this practice is for Shinsa, if you are late for a rank grading don't expect to get in the door.

Demeaning or belittling someone does nothing towards building them up but does much in the way of discourage them from continuing their training.

[xvikingx]

I they announce themselves by saying konba wa / konichi wa / ohayo gozaimasu

In Canada?

[Aden]

I am always late (for Tuesday night Kendo) these days - I try to arrive 15 minutes before jigeiko starts to have time to get changed and stretch.... I just bow myself in and wave/bow at whoever is running the class to let them know I am there.

Different for beginners :) - they should be early and be changed by start time for they miss important material by being late, but once you get to shodan you should be capable of self programming.

Aden

[The great I AM]

Yeah, but do you bow when you are talking on the telelphone?Oncew when watching an old japanese video I caught myself bowing to a news reader at the end of his report.

[xvikingx]

You need help.

[mark]

Wow... I didn't read through the rest of the posts--I just replied to what Mark asked.
Um, guys, I kind of think this is getting blown out of proportion. Yes, it's important to be on time for things, and that definition changes depending on the culture. .....
Isn't a quick 'excuse me for being late', or a 'I'm sorry I was late', or at the very least being sure to greet one's teammates before joining the practice sufficient?
Now, people who turn up late because they don't like haya suburi, so being late is a convenient way to get out of it, that's something different.

One of the reason's I asked the question is that I have seen very different reactions to being late depending on the dojo. From the quite informal you show up when you can, to a very strict don't bother showing up if your late and several variants in between. The bottom line for me is that as long as it is consistent I can either adapt or chose another dojo.

Although it is interesting to find out who does what or how many dojos do this instead of that, I find it more useful to find out why it is the way it is.

For example, your point that you are training very young children to be on time, and the fact that you personally bow during telephone calls :) goes a long why to explaining why your dojo has its greeting policy.
In my current dojo most members are professionals or teachers who tend to manage their own very busy schedules. I find it impressive, that most of them nevertheless put kendo in their very high priority category and try to schedule a practice even when they are on vacation or out of town on business!

[The great I AM]

You need help.He bowed first!

[JByrd]

Yeah, but do you bow when you are talking on the telelphone?

Ha ha! That reminds me... my wife and I were relaxing on the sofa one evening when the phone rang. She answered, and then immediately sat up straight. Before she said anything else I already knew Koike Sensei was calling. :grin:

[Jundokan]

In Canada?

Yes.

I figure what's the harm in people learning some basic Japanese phrases given that they are studying Japanese arts.

[michaelm]

To keep from derailing this thread, I've started another thread inspired by the posts here.
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13821

[EBP2K2]

In a another thread Kenzan mentioned that latecomers to his dojo were punished.


Does your dojo have special treatment for latecomers?

when i took my time putting on bogu, I had to do 100 haya suburi, it's not so bad.

[enkorat]

In my own personal experience, this is sort of a more complicated issue for me and isn't black and white.

When I started doing martial arts in college (not kendo), the organization at my university had a culture that was very different from kendo. Much of the organization's culture consisted of a lot of guilt tripping, so that we were "molded" and trained by "guilt".

Its very hard to describe. The rules that were written on the wall were different from the actual expectations higher ranks had of us kohai. A tremendous pressure was put on us to place our martial arts activities as a "first priority" above that of school. Although higher ranks would say in one breath "of course school is always first", but then the rest of the sentence was "... but you know, to get yellow belt with green double stripe, it requires... a certain ... character... you are good enough to balance the rest of your pathetic life...aren't you? You want to succeed, don't you? Look at him over there, he does it perfectly, gets better grades than you, is better at martial arts than you, why can't you? why should I waste my valuable time on you?"

I have heard kenzen's and alison's lectures before from other people, pretty much word for word. It is unsettling to me still even to this day to read.

My summer of my sophmore year, I ended up failing one of my classes I was taking in part because I had been doing too much martial arts.

Last year, I was reading a blog of a student who is part of the same organziation I was over 12 years ago, and he used the term "chosen few" who got "specialized attention", and in order to make up for him not being one of the "chosen", he publicly resolved on his blog to be even more "extra dedicated" to his training by training even longer, more often, and harder, and to listen more closely to his seniors. Reading between the lines I had a feeling he was already practicing 17 hours a week or so, judging by what was considered "dedicated" back in my day, so at that point it really starts to impact school work, in my own experience.

It made me really sad to see that things really hadn't changed.

I think its a good thing to instill a sense of dedication in younger people like children. But in college, a really important skill that many student dodn't quite have yet was a sense of perspective, and good prioritizing skills. And equally for the number of students who come late are the other students who try to "shelter" in martial arts and not face their obligations outside the dojo.

I think dedication is important, but "institutionalized" dedication isn't a good thing at all. Dedication is a personal thing, and once it isn't, its more like a cult rather than a hobby.

I feel like I'm doing a poor job describing what I'm getting at, and its a bigger issue than doing a hundred hayasuburi in front of the dojo...

[michaelm]

I feel like I'm doing a poor job describing what I'm getting at, and its a bigger issue than doing a hundred hayasuburi in front of the dojo...

No, I think you've described quite well a similar unhealthy situation many of us have had in other martial arts. I agree that there is a bigger underlying issue.

While I understand their argument and where they're coming from, it's still not something I would adopt for myself as an adult. Institutionalized discipline is not something I've seen in the kendo circles I'm acquainted with, and I like it that way.

[mark]

To keep from derailing this thread, I've started another thread inspired by the posts here.
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13821

Wow, That is a really nice way to start another thread! I will copy it from now on if you don't mind:)

[shiin]

I see it as a good thing.
If Kendo is about molding one's character, why not have consequences for being late? After all, if you were late to your job, there certainly would be consequences, if you were late to an educational class, same thing.
If all of the Senseis can be on time, every time, why should not the same thing be expected of the students?

In a lot of cases, the person that runs the dojo, the sensei, has made the dojo's hours to fit around his schedule.

[ratdeau]

When a student is late, it's certainly for some good reason.
If it's not, it's not through punishment I will teach him to be on time.
He should understand why he must be one time and not learn having fear to be late. The result seems to be the same, but is not.

[MartialArtsGirl]

Actually I agree with Kenzan. As a person who has often been chronically late, maybe I have a different perspective? Many students at our dojo do come late- but usually its because they have to work or something. But in my case, I've always been chronically late to everything... so sensei asked me why I kept being late a couple times and I told him the truth- its something I've had problems with. He didnt "punish" me, but he basically did lay down some rules and say "if you can't be on time then maybe Kendo isn't for you" (and hes only givin me 5 chances) which basically really motivated me to be on time. He basically said... maybe this will cure you of it. Actually I see this as a great kindness because I think its working really well (inside the dojo and out.) I'm changing. So I am grateful. But I wouldnt consider it a punishment...maybe just more of a consquence. So maybe the whole point is... whats the intention behind it? Plus he knows (probably) that I want Kendo to help me with charactor development too. Its not "just" a hobby. But maybe this depends on the student? And the dojo?

[Scharnhorst]

I´m always late, and that is punishment enough. Wish I could be there for warm up, suburi, etc. It´s not good at all to begin right with 50 kirikaeshi, that hurts, and I become very tired sooner also, because I´ve missed the entire warm up and so on.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I´m always late, and that is punishment enough. Wish I could be there for warm up, suburi, etc. It´s not good at all to begin right with 50 kirikaeshi, that hurts, and I become very tired sooner also, because I´ve missed the entire warm up and so on.


Are you late for a legit reason? (i.e. work? or other responsability?) Or, just a bad habit?

[Scharnhorst]

I blame my kids! They don´t let me sleep very well and they are so cute that I can't leave home early in the morning because they always wanna play a little when we wake up. So, I came late and tired (from bad sleeping, not from playing with then) every saturday morning. So, I guess it´s half legit :)

[Anonymous]

At my naginata place, if you're late, you sit out until one of the sensei calls you in.

For kendo, you'd better get your stuff on quick and get in there, because you're the only one losing out by being late.

[Toecutter]

I think for the most part everyone lets a little late slide but if you're coming in 20-30 minutes late I can see where that would be disruptive. In a visiting dojo I've seen the sensei (twice on 2 separate occasions) stop class and basically say, I get here on time if you can't don't come. Everyone is going to be late once in a while but if it's chronic maybe you should be doing haya suburi front of the class.

[Scharnhorst]

I think for the most part everyone lets a little late slide but if you're coming in 20-30 minutes late I can see where that would be disruptive. In a visiting dojo I've seen the sensei (twice on 2 separate occasions) stop class and basically say, I get here on time if you can't don't come. Everyone is going to be late once in a while but if it's chronic maybe you should be doing haya suburi front of the class.


You are missing the point. I´m not a kid who needs punishment to teach me something. I know that is not good, particularly for me, to arrive late. Haya suburi would just be a fine warm up and won´t be a punishment at all. But the sensei, not you, knows why I arrive late, and he just hurry me up to dress up and start as quick as possible, wich is good for me, and for my mates, since we are not a big dojo, so it will be good to have one more aite. Also, we don´t have a policy of "punishment" in my dojo. Usually, our sensei talk to us if something is disturbing our pratice. Still, being the only day that I can attend to the dojo, should I stay at home and not pratice at all just because I can´t be there on time? I don´t think so.

And I hope in some months I can return to catch a full pratice, wich is not possible for me at those days.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It really depends on the dojo culture. We don't get fussed if people are late. In fact, we rarely start class on time anyways, there's usually 15 minutes of people chatting, organizing their stuff, buying supplies from the club store, etc, before we get going for real.

[JSchmidt]

. Still, being the only day that I can attend to the dojo, should I stay at home and not pratice at all just because I can´t be there on time? I don´t think so.


Easier solution is to make a bit more effort to get there on time? Wake up a bit earlier, so you have more time to play with the kids?

[Wraith]

Flogging sounds like a good punishment in these circumstances!

[atgm]

My dojo is more relaxed. If someone arrives late, they go directly to sensei to apologize, then go get their gear ready out of everyone's way. If we haven't yet lined up, they join us -- at the far end of the line -- and then go get their gear on while everyone else is putting their men on. There are no recriminations, no bullying, none of that.

I don't think I could stand a place with a more... militant mindset, I guess. I was thinking the same thing when I was reading through the iaido thread about the flu -- for god's sake, if you're sick with a contagious disease, don't go to the dojo. Sure, a martial art requires dedication, but not a crazed, mindless dedication. We don't go to the dojo when we're sick. If any of us have injuries, we go to the dojo anyway, but don't practice -- we watch or memorize any of the various texts that sensei has us study.

[atgm]

Sigh, sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to add some things that I was thinking about in the shower. I'm no sensei, and I know this sounds preachy, but I can't think of a better way to express what the idea of "late punishment" makes me feel.

I couldn't name the original reason why the idea of "late punishment" rubbed me the wrong way -- it's not just that we're (presumably -- there may be minors) adults and as such responsible for ourselves... Nor is it the fact that I don't believe that you can "punish" someone into being a better person and think that you're doing the right thing, though those are both large parts of my discomfort. It's almost like avoidance conditioning -- you'll keep piling on negative stimulus (punishment exercise, temporary exclusion from the "society", threat of a lecture, etc.) which will then be associated with coming late and/or kendo itself. For people who already have enough things to juggle, that may be enough to make them question why they're doing kendo. Then for others, it may not affect their lateness at all; or perhaps they modify their behavior until the stimulus (punishment) is no longer a threat anymore, in which case it's just as ineffective.

Kendo may teach you to be a better person (personally, I think your classmates and role models in the dojo would have more to do with it than a piece of bamboo), but part of being a better person is being compassionate and understanding, in my opinion. The senpai-kouhai relationship in Japan is, ideally, a two-way responsibility. The kouhai is supposed to listen to and respect the senpai, yes, and the senpai is also supposed to help and instruct the kouhai. This can and did often lead to bullying in the school system/workplace becaeuse the senpai was absolute boss -- they wanted the kouhai to do things THEIR way and WHEN they said, rather than being understanding and trying to help them. So when I hear about "late punishment", I hear and think of a continuation of that kind of misguided system.

Sorry about the long rant. I guess I just needed to throw my two cents in again.

[Anonymous]

Flogging sounds like a good punishment in these circumstances!


I suggest sending repeat offenders to work in the acid mines.

[Maku-san]

I suggest sending repeat offenders to work in the acid mines.

Ship them off to Mars to work for Kuato!!!

[Shazzanzzz]

Depends for me... If I'm leading the class at the school club, I won't be late. If I go to the local clubs, I always go early. If I'm going to the school club and I'm not leading.... I'm almost always late...

[NigelSponge]

i think showing up late is punishment enough in itself. I know i usually feel ashamed when i arrive late to practice and i don't need to do any hayasuburi to enforce that. In fact i think doing hayasuburi or some other physical punishment makes one feel like they have paid the price for being late, and from that point on should practice like normal. I think if you are late and you want to make physical amends, push yourself harder during keiko.
I know i personally feel more punished if the sensei doesnt give me any concrete thing to do, it would all be one me to punish myself, which i think is a more valuable form as it build's self discipline.
my 2¢

[Raffa]

We are a dojo composed nearly only by adult people, so commonly latecomers arrive late for work reason.
In that case they apologize with the sensei and ask permission to start praticse. We appreciate the fact that, after an hard day of work, they still find energy to come....

I think showing up late is punishment enough in itself. I know i usually feel ashamed when i arrive late to practice and i don't need to do any hayasuburi to enforce that.

I agree.....

[Jason Anstey]

I run a small Iaido and Jodo dojo. I also run my own business and have a lovely wife and 16 month old daughter.

I must always be on time to open up etc. I chose to start at a quite early time of 6pm and finish at 8pm so I can still have a bit of relax time when I get home.

For many years I EXPECTED everyone to be punctual as this was what was taught to me at the dojo I previously attended and was berated for if I was 5 minutes late ( rare that it was).

A little while back I discussed this with my Sensei and was surprised that she was much more relaxed about this than I was. Whilst it it preferable for people to all start together it is not always possible. We have family and work commitments or illnesses etc, and we do this for a hobby - ie. FUN!

She explained that people can come late and leave early at her Sensei's dojo in Japan, so if it's good enough for a famous and highly sought after teacher in Japan to have this attitude why should we westerners be so precious or bolshey about it.

Anyway here's how I look at it.

- I prefer people to start on time and finish at the end of the class

- These arts are generally individual we do them for ourselves - the more time one puts in, the more he/she will get out of it.

- I prefer for a student to attend for a shorter period of time than not at all.

- I expect everyone to be on time for a prearranged seminar or if there is a special event.

- If I am going to be late to train with my Sensei I will make sure I call beforehand.

- Punctuality is important to ME, but I won't harshly judge others by my own set of standards or ideals.

Having said all of that, I think there is a big difference between being late or being lazy and undisciplined. Luckily it is pretty easy to spot these traits.

THanks for the thread, it is certainly one that piqued my interest.

Cheers

Jason

[Angel_Of_Music]

I had a sempai come in for training really late, with only half an hour left!!

I'm pretty sure something held him up though (and it doesn't help that the main closest to our dōjō suffers from terrible peak-hour traffic). And the fact that he bothered to turn up at all, despite the having little time left to train, shows his dedication!

And dedication is, of course, desirable! :happy:

[MiddleEarthNet]

I think it depends on the reason for someone being late and how often it happens. For instance, where I train, the main route there sometimes has no traffic on it and other times is backed up for miles. You can allow for slow traffic but sometimes it is impossible to know how bad it will be. Others may get kept at work for an extra half an hour to finish something off. I haven't been late yet but I have seen others who have (I don't need to know the reason, it is none of my business) but the Sensei doesn't make a fuss about it. I think this is the right way of doing it.

[Wraith]

I suggest sending repeat offenders to work in the acid mines.

Followed by decapitation or castration....Free choice

[Bokushingu]

I visit the LA/Orange county Dojos alot. But unfortunately, due to traffic & waiting for my kids to get home from school before me and a few other dojomates set out for the 90+ min drive, we end up being 10 to 30 mins late(depending on traffic). we feel bad about it even though the Sensei's of those clubs are very understanding & continuosly welcome us.

there are a few clubs i have been wanting to visit but I know there is no way I can get there without being close to an hour late & I just don't want to disrespect their club.

[Scharnhorst]

Followed by decapitation or castration....Free choice

Decapitation, please.

[Angel_Of_Music]

Decapitation, please.

I'd rather be castrated!

At least I would still be alive enough to practice kendo! :p

[Scharnhorst]

I'd rather be castrated!

At least I would still be alive enough to practice kendo! :p

Sure, with a girlish kiai now! :ogre:

[braxtonhicks]

At my first dojo, we weren't singled out directly, but as a group, the beginners were given a stern talking to at one point for not all of us being there to clean the floors on time. Because I make my living as a freelance performing musician, and as a private music teacher, I have to take gigs/students whenever they're offered and on the schedule of whoever's hiring me for either type of job. I had a student on the beginner's practice night, and it wasn't possible for me to get to that dojo on time. The overall dojo culture made me feel uncomfortable as a beginner showing up late or leaving early. However there was someone more senior who was late for every single practice, I think because they either had to work, or maybe didn't like doing warmup/footwork/kihon, and the sensei would personally come over, do some hayasuburi with them, and tell them to get in line for jigeiko.

At my current dojo, it is extremely relaxed, and they are understanding. I've had a family illness recently, and work's been busy, but if I've shown up late, I just mokuso, stretch, do a some suburi and jump in as soon as I can. My sensei told me by email (he's quite approachable in person, and by email) that family and work have to come first, then kendo. For kids if they're late, sometimes they have to do pushups. The only time I was punished at my dojo was when we were all too slow putting on our bogu, and both sensei's were done way before us. 150 hayasuburi in bogu,...I'd never done hayasuburi with my men on before. We normally do 100 or 200 as part of our warm-up , but I found this really tough, especially with my brand new men. Needless to say, I'm the fastest person at my dojo now at getting on my bogu.

[Tort-Speed]

While, as already mentioned, being late is itself a kind of punishment since
we miss something...or lots of somethings! If it's a standing time-crunch (job etc.), out of politeness to the Sensei we should let him/her know the situation.