Hwarang vs AUSKF gradings and tournaments

[Black Knight]

Last weekend a contingent of the George Mason University Kumdo/Kendo club came to the SEUSKF Willam and Mary tournament. They did very well, taking 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in mudansha, a 3rd place in yudansha, and 2nd place in teams. What is amazing about this is that their team consisted of 1 yudansha, a sho-dan, and 4 kyu grades. I found out from them that they are affiliated with US Hwarangkwan.

This, along with other information I have heard about Hwarangkwan testing, leads me to believe that they grade very differently from other kendo/kumdo dojos. In fact, having watched closely their "mudansha" champions, I would estimate their skill level at sho-dan or ni-dan at the least. Only one of the "kyu-grade" team members actually looked like a kyu-grade player in competition.

I congratulate them on their skill and talent, which is undeniable, but I do wonder whether it is entirely appropriate for their "mudansha" to be competing with more traditional kendo/kumdo mudansha. By this I mean it seems like stacking the deck substantially by putting rather experienced kendo players in with fairly raw recruits.

This analysis in no way detracts from their team performance, it was quite excellent. But it still seems odd to me that a team of 1 shodan and 4 mudansha would get so far against teams composed of yudansha, including some with 4- and 5-dan players in them.

I realize that grading is subjective and no competition is ever totally "fair", but I wonder if there shouldn't be some limits to how unfair it can get in this regard.

Thoughts?

[Masahiro]

since I wasn't able to physically watch the bouts and judge the "appropriate" leavel of these players in question myself. I can only conclude the following possibilities, (all of which are from my experience with various kumdo dojans/players i've seen and other kendo tournaments i've been to)

1)most kumdo dojans are very competition oriented, so. ..people who came from kumdo dojans usually spar a lot more. hence it give them more "experience" regardless the rank. that would certain help their odds in the team division.

2)the competition are the W&M bring a small group perhaps isn't the best representation of what "excellent" yondan and godan are suppose to be. A lot of yonda and above kenshi's that I've seen exhibits this "lazy" kendo. only doing what they are good at, so after about 1 minute. It's not hard to figure out some "tactics" to confuse/surprise them, and win by a mix of fortune and intellect. I'd say that large tournaments like Detroit, some west coast, and various other ones would get a better scale of what is an appropriate display of that particular rank's kendo is suppose to be.

3)of course, there is also the possibility that these hwarankwang kenshi(s) are just extremely talented and should be seriously considered for future U.S team finalists.

[johnkichu]

Well, I attend US Hwarangkwan, and I think of this from the other perspective - that some schools grade too easily. What information have you heard about Hwarangkwan testing?

You live in Vienna - the main US Hwarangkwan dojang is in Vienna, right off Gallows, in the same building as Kitty Jordan's Piano store. You should come check it out before making unfounded statements.

I'm not sure why you think it's inappropriate or unfair that these guys did so well. So you'd group off all the "good" kendokas from all the "bad" kendokas so they wouldn't compete together? I know these guys - they practiced very hard. US Hwarangkwan is a traditional kumdo school. It is KKA sanctioned, and in fact, is the de facto HQ for the KKA in the east coast.

US Hwarangkwan does not hold people back just to win tournaments. Hwarangkwan's timeline is very similar to the other kumdo/kendo schools I know of. If you practice diligently, you should make shodan in about 3.5 to 4 years. I practice with the shodan you speak about, and he just became a shodan this past December. He's just very good.

[bpaang]

I practice at U.S. Hwa Rang Kwan and the people who went to that tournament are just very good at kumdo/kendo. Our dojangs don't hold people back so that they can win mudansha tournaments either; The shodan who led the team was actually skipped up to shodan and made his first dan in a little over 2 years. We're not competition orientated either; we only attend a few tournaments a year to make sure our students don't focus too much on winning matches. The reason that the GMU team did so well is because they're all just very good practitioners of kumdo/kendo. If you're from vienna you should come practice and see for yourself.

[tango]

FWIW --- and this has only a little to do with this subject --- if I recall correctly, at the last SEUSKF regional tournament, a team comprised of one 7.dan and two 5.dan (the TMG team) lost to a Charlotte team which had, I believe, a 4.dan as its highest ranked player...

so just about anything is possible with team competition...

[Black Knight]

I wrote a long reply and it got eaten. I guess I timed out.

So here's my quick response.

1. Those guys were awesome, no doubt. I look forward to crashing their Monday night GMU class and practicing with them. I am sure I will learn a lot from them. Nothing I say is meant to take away from their obvious skills. I told them I wanted to visit and they said iwas welcome anytime. Very nice guys, honestly.

2. They were way better than 95% of the kendo mudansha at W&M, and at any kendo tourney I've been to. Maybe that's just because they rock, which they do, or maybe it's Hwarang grading. Or some combination thereof.

3. I know from a Hwarang sho-dan named Myke Cole that geting sho-dan in Hwarang is about 100 times as intense as getting a Japanese kendo sho-dan. He wrote an epic e-mail about it a few years back, and he knows the comparison because he got his Japanese sho-dan first. So my comments about Hwarang grading are not "unfounded" but I guess I should have spelled that out in the first place. Although Myke could have exaggerated...

4. I don't think Hwarang people are intentionally held-back to win mudansha tournaments. But it does seem that the don't promote as fast. It is quite possible to reach sho-dan in 2 years at a Japanese dojo with some serious effort, and people skip kyu grades quite often. Take that for what it's worth. Maybe it means nothing.

If I've offended anyone, I apologize. These were just my honest observations about what I saw.

See you on the dojo floor,

Brian

[hl1978]

I wrote a long reply and it got eaten. I guess I timed out.

So here's my quick response.

1. Those guys were awesome, no doubt. I look forward to crashing their Monday night GMU class and practicing with them. I am sure I will learn a lot from them. Nothing I say is meant to take away from their obvious skills. I told them I wanted to visit and they said iwas welcome anytime. Very nice guys, honestly.

2. They were way better than 95% of the kendo mudansha at W&M, and at any kendo tourney I've been to. Maybe that's just because they rock, which they do, or maybe it's Hwarang grading. Or some combination thereof.

3. I know from a Hwarang sho-dan named Myke Cole that geting sho-dan in Hwarang is about 100 times as intense as getting a Japanese kendo sho-dan. He wrote an epic e-mail about it a few years back, and he knows the comparison because he got his Japanese sho-dan first. So my comments about Hwarang grading are not "unfounded" but I guess I should have spelled that out in the first place. Although Myke could have exaggerated...

4. I don't think Hwarang people are intentionally held-back to win mudansha tournaments. But it does seem that the don't promote as fast. It is quite possible to reach sho-dan in 2 years at a Japanese dojo with some serious effort, and people skip kyu grades quite often. Take that for what it's worth. Maybe it means nothing.

If I've offended anyone, I apologize. These were just my honest observations about what I saw.

See you on the dojo floor,

Brian



Just to add, I took my shodan exam with Myke Cole (I believe I was partnered with him for the kata portion back in 2001 in NYC, though I do recall both Allan Wong and myself practicing kata with Myke before the test) and recall reading the ordeal of the Hwarangkan shodan exam, which included a lot of elements not found in our own shodan exams.

When I first started kendo, a buddy of mine simulataneously trained/was ranked in kumdo/kendo and the requriments were different. They also had single person kata which looked nothing at all like any of the ZNKR seitei kata.

Also, the Hwarangkan shodan from the W&M tournament went up against a nanadan as I recall in the team tournament and did quite well, along with the kyu ranked competitiors who competed against yondan/godan.

These guys were very pleasant and obviously talented and hard working, their success demonstrates their skill.

It is also situtations like these why I would advocate a different way of grouping competitiors in competition based off years training, or number of tournaments entered. You have people like myself who didn't take exams for years and are theoretically underranked, competing in the lower level divisions. You can't call either situation sandbagging, but how do you group people appropriately?

[johnkichu]

Brian,

I know a couple people from your dojo. I practice at Hwarangkwan and a kendo dojo - in fact, I practice with your 3-dan leader every week, and one of Hwarangkwan students practice (or practiced) with you guys, until injuries forced him to stop. You did use phrases like "stacking the deck" and question their "appropriateness." So why should we get offended???

Grouping people by abilities is an intriguing concept, but we already have a system for dealing with that - it's called kyu and dan grades. It easier/harder at some schools, but in the grand scheme of things, it averages out. If you are at the same grade, you're suppose to be peers, and a grade does not reflect your sparring abilities alone. It's certainly possible to obtain shodan in kumdo in one or two year at some schools. It takes longer at Hwarangkwan.

I don't buy grouping people by years of experience - you can practice 5 years once a week or you can practice 5 years 5 or 6 days a week. Let your dojo/federation decide where you should be graded, and that's really the only tihng you can go on.

Schools send out beginners to competition all the time, but rarely complain when they have to go up against more experienced opponents. That's part of the learning. You're not always going to face opponents at your own level. Life isn't "fair." All knowledged should lead to self knowledge - that's the "do" or the way in kendo. If you see someone better/worse than you, instead of figuring out where they should be grouped, we should all look inward and think about what it means for us and how we can apply it to ourselves.

[Black Knight]

I apologize for the phrase "stacking the deck"; it was poorly chosen. :emb:

As for appropriateness, I think it's a fair question. I already said life isn't fair, but there are levels of competition for a reason, and I think there is good evidence of a disconnect between Hwarang's grading and Japanese kendo. I notice you didn't respond to my comments about Myke's shodan test. Would you agree it's much more intense getting shodan at hwarang?

Anyway, in the end I agree with you that we should look within, as well. Which is why I said I plan to train with the GMU guys very soon.:ninja:

Take care,

Brian

[hl1978]

I don't buy grouping people by years of experience - you can practice 5 years once a week or you can practice 5 years 5 or 6 days a week. Let your dojo/federation decide where you should be graded, and that's really the only tihng you can go on.



Therein lies the rub. what about people who choose not to be graded or can't be forwhatever reason. I was nikyu for about 3 years practicing kendo 3 days a week, and our dojo rarely communicated with the head dojo in NYC, so we found out about exams after they occured (hyuna has verified this in my case though I was only nikyu for 2 years there).

For that situation what division would have been the appropriate one for me?

What would have been the appropriate division for my friend who was ranked differently in kumdo and kendo, testing simultanesouly in both schools?

[peeleep]

i would say that the us hrk dan testing system is pretty difficult. and, i think the problem, or the unfairness, that you speak of lies in the fact that many other places promote rank much too hastily. it's not that us hrk tests extremely hard, it's that others test much easier than what should be the norm.

[johnkichu]

Brian,

There is actually an interesting thread about the differences between kendo (at least GNEUSKF) dan grading and kumdo (Hwarangkwan) grading, over the Kingdomfigher.com forum.

I think the difference comes down to this. At Hwarangkwan grading, all the members of the judging panel know all the applicants well, and they wouldn't have asked you to test in the first place if they felt you weren't ready. There is no written portion - they've already spent years talking to you and know whether you "get it" or not. So, during the actual test, instead of spending a lot of time making sure you can do basics correctly, they literally put you through the ringer, literally. It is very physically demanding, as Myke describe. The last test consisted of:

1. brief demonstration of your mastery of basics (kirikashi, basic wazas, etc...)

2. Korean forms, Bon Guk Gum Bup and Chosun Se Bup (and you better do these forms perfectly, as well as #3 and #4 below)

3. Kendo no kata (shodan testers needs to know the first five)

4. Iaido (shodan testers need to know the first ten). Hwarangkwan practices Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido. If you were testing in Korea, I don't think you need to do this.

5. Now the fun begins - it's keiko time. You basically have to spar every other people testing, and then all the non-testing black belts who are there to help out. Then our head sensie spars each individually, in a shia style, with judges. You end up sparring over 40 opponents. This is the gruelling part.

And because you wouldn't have been allowed to test unless the head sensei already knows whether you're ready or not, everyone passes, if you can physically make it through. If you screw up during the forms & kata, you will be asked to repeat, but I haven't seen this happen yet. They do practice intensely for the test.

When I witnessed the Greater North East Kendo Federation dan test, it seemed (at least to me) that most of the judges did not know most of the applicants. The panels were senior senseis from various dojos in the federatino. So you have to spend time demonstrating your mastery of basics, then kendo no kata,and a couple of keiko sessions. And since the test isn't just one dojo, there are a lot of people being tested, so you don't see the same type of test as Hwarangkwan, and you can fail. This is just my observation - my opinion, so don't get too worked up if you don't agree or if it's wrong.

By the way, KKA allows local schools to grade up to 3 dan in the US. From 3 dan on, you either have to go to Korea, or wait for the annual test, which is judged by officials from KKA. The annual test flip flops between the west and the east coast. Last one was in NY. These tests, as well as the tests in Korea, are similar to the AUSKF dan tests and ones in Japan, and unlike the test of lower dan, local tests.

But getting back to your point - yes, the test may be more intense, but passing Hwarangkwan test doesn't make you a better competitor. That is not going to teach you to compete better. As I've said, I practice at a kendo dojo, also, and I can tell you that the regular classes are very similar. I don't think Hwarangkwan does any more sparring/keiko than the kendo classes I've been to, or seen. We do have our late, advanced classes (3 kyu or higher, mostly yudansha's) during which we keiko a lot, but the primary focus of those classes are not teaching (you don't go there to learn to fight). It's mainly for high level students to practice.

[hl1978]

deleted repeated above

[johnkichu]

i would say that the us hrk dan testing system is pretty difficult. and, i think the problem, or the unfairness, that you speak of lies in the fact that many other places promote rank much too hastily. it's not that us hrk tests extremely hard, it's that others test much easier than what should be the norm.

Peeleep should know - he just went through this late last year. He's also one of our hotrods.

[johnkichu]

What would have been the appropriate division for my friend who was ranked differently in kumdo and kendo, testing simultanesouly in both schools?

This is an interesting question. Are you even allowed to test in both schools? I mean, if it's a legit kumdo school, it should have the KKA-IKF approval, so why do you need to test in both schools?

[hl1978]

This is an interesting question. Are you even allowed to test in both schools? I mean, if it's a legit kumdo school, it should have the KKA-IKF approval, so why do you need to test in both schools?

Beats me, this was back circa 1998-2001 or so. He did kendo up near albany NY and kumdo I believe in flushing or NYC (I forget, maybe in queens?), while we were in college. I have no idea at the time if his kumdo school was IKF affiliated or not (he was a korean guy). I am assuming it was not.

His technique was legit, only differences was kata, I don't believe he knew any of the kendo kata when he first started, and I don't believe he knew any iai kata either.

The korean kata he did, looked absolutely unlike any japanese styled sword kata I ever seen, very very long in comparasion and started from a standing position.

[hl1978]

thats dumb of me, queens/flushing is more or less the same place

[Jefe]

Last weekend a contingent of the George Mason University Kumdo/Kendo club came to the SEUSKF Willam and Mary tournament. They did very well, taking 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in mudansha, a 3rd place in yudansha, and 2nd place in teams. What is amazing about this is that their team consisted of 1 yudansha, a sho-dan, and 4 kyu grades. I found out from them that they are affiliated with US Hwarangkwan.

This, along with other information I have heard about Hwarangkwan testing, leads me to believe that they grade very differently from other kendo/kumdo dojos. In fact, having watched closely their "mudansha" champions, I would estimate their skill level at sho-dan or ni-dan at the least. Only one of the "kyu-grade" team members actually looked like a kyu-grade player in competition.

I congratulate them on their skill and talent, which is undeniable, but I do wonder whether it is entirely appropriate for their "mudansha" to be competing with more traditional kendo/kumdo mudansha. By this I mean it seems like stacking the deck substantially by putting rather experienced kendo players in with fairly raw recruits.

This analysis in no way detracts from their team performance, it was quite excellent. But it still seems odd to me that a team of 1 shodan and 4 mudansha would get so far against teams composed of yudansha, including some with 4- and 5-dan players in them.

I realize that grading is subjective and no competition is ever totally "fair", but I wonder if there shouldn't be some limits to how unfair it can get in this regard.

Thoughts?
In our Federation (SCKF) there are a couple of kumdo dojos too. Mostly they have 5 practices a week, while kendo dojos have usually 2. That can make a difference. Also, everyone knows that kumdo is different in a couple of ways from kendo. It's very challenging to have a shiai or keiko with them in many ways.
So I'm not surprised what you wrote about their competition level, that is coming from their way of practice.

[ywback]

Hi, I was one of those GMU Kumdo/Kendo Club members.

Wow, I had no knowledge of all these discussions, I just go have fun practicing what I like to do. I've learnt a lot through all of you today, thank you!

Mr. Black Knight, I think I know who you are, but anyways, it was nice to meet you, and other nice people at the W&M tournament.

Why don't you come practice at US Hwa Rang Kwan with us rather than GMU. GMU at the moment is mainly composed of beginners and only a handful of us wear armour at practice. We would like our members to be more experienced before we start having guests, so that the guests can have a good practice session too. You'll have more experienced practioners at Hwarangkwan to practice with.

Thanks

[Old Warrior]

In our Federation (SCKF) there are a couple of kumdo dojos too. Mostly they have 5 practices a week, while kendo dojos have usually 2. That can make a difference. Also, everyone knows that kumdo is different in a couple of ways from kendo. It's very challenging to have a shiai or keiko with them in many ways.
So I'm not surprised what you wrote about their competition level, that is coming from their way of practice.

I don't know what to make of this thread. The 4 Hwa Rang schools in the Va/DC area do some of the finest kumdo/kendo anywhere. Their testing standards are very high and they produce formidable players at every level.

I wonder if Black Night was suggesting that "ringers" showed up or whether he has some inherent prejudice as to what he thinks kumdo is. I belong to Sung Moo Kwan in NJ and Hwa Rang is one of perrenial rivals. Our dojang has classes 6 days a week and on some days there are 5 classes. It took me over 3 years to make shodan. Attendance records are taken and you cannot test unless you are asked to do so. I'm sure Hwa Rang has similar requirements and runs a similar number of classes.

The bottom line is that no one should be surprised that Hwa Rang kumdo delivers competative results.

[ywback]

Hi,

Mr Black Knight, hi, I met you at the W&M tournament, I was one of the GMU boys. :)

It was great meeting nice people like you at the event. Why don't you come and practice with us at hwarangkwan rather than our club? Our club at the moment is mainly focused for our new members and andly 6~7 of us have armor, and only 5 of us are at sparring level. Our members are mostly still going through basics. You;ll benefit more by training with us at our Vienna school.

Hope you have a great day~!

p.s. hello to all the other hwa rang kwan members I see on this wall tonight!

[ywback]

I feel so stupid! I thought my first message was lost so I write the next, and I end up with 2 similar posts... duh...

anyways, please excuse me for being like this...

[johnkichu]

Also, everyone knows that kumdo is different in a couple of ways from kendo. It's very challenging to have a shiai or keiko with them in many ways.

No, I guess everyone doesn't know. I practice both kumdo & kendo, and I don't know what you mean here. Can you elaborate? How is kumdo different in a couple of ways, and how do you find it challenging to have a shia or keiko with them?

[hl1978]

No, I guess everyone doesn't know. I practice both kumdo & kendo, and I don't know what you mean here. Can you elaborate? How is kumdo different in a couple of ways, and how do you find it challenging to have a shia or keiko with them?

shiai style can be different. for example:

In the past when I have seen kumdo players, they were much more likely to do rapid fire hits to the same target than kendo players.

I didn't really see that from the kumdo players at the last W&M tourament though.

The black ships of kendo article describes kumdo as :

"Secondly, the rapidly increasing presence of Korean kumdo dojang are providing many countries with a different style which is characteristically more dynamic than Japanese kendo, and openly advocates a competition oriented form."

[Shazzanzzz]

Also, the Hwarangkan shodan from the W&M tournament went up against a nanadan as I recall in the team tournament and did quite well, along with the kyu ranked competitiors who competed against yondan/godan.


I had to go against that nanadan last year. Not saying that i should have won, but i definitely had a good kote on him that they didn't score. I kind of thought maybe my kote was good enough to score against anybody else, but just not good enough on a nanadan, which is understandable (but i still didn't like it since my team lost). Also, our sempo should have won his match, he scored about 10 points on his opponent. This is one of the reasons people from Virginia Tech were kind of put off in going to william and mary this year. None of the people that would be on the first team went this year.

No disrespect, but, I think the Virginia Tech team (with me on it) would have beaten the GMU team HAHA. GMU should come to the Yale Tournament (this weekend) to prove themselves. (another reason why no one wanted to go to william and mary... since it's really tiring to do 2 tournaments in a row).

People from hwarang are very good, though. I think their grading is fair, their members just practice more on average than other clubs.

[Shazzanzzz]

I feel so stupid! I thought my first message was lost so I write the next, and I end up with 2 similar posts... duh...

anyways, please excuse me for being like this...

I think andy said u guys are going to harvard? you guys wanna have a friendly match with the GWU undergrad team during one of our saturday practices? One of the members suggested that. Then we can all jigeiko (sparr) afterwards. It would be good to meet u guys before we all go harvard.

[Black Knight]

Hey GMU guys! I thought I might see you here.

Actually, I thought I'd practice at GMU since that's where all the hot rods I met are! :cheerful:

Also, I had been told by Myke that the main Hwarang dojo is not a place you can visit regularly to train without becoming a paying member. I thought it might be different to go over to GMU. Because the Japanese-style dojos are non-profits, we can generally visit one another fairly regularly without an expectation of payment. I had heard from Myke that I couldn't visit Hwarang once or twice a month on a regular basis and not expect to pay. I really can't afford to pay Hwarang's fee (about $150, right) and my North VA fee every month ($50), ya know?

Finally, as a sho-dan for the Japanese style of grading, I have no idea which class at Hwarang to visit, as they are based on Hwarang grading. Myke told me long ago (when I was kendo ikkyu) that I should not expect to be in the 1 kyeup class. You GMU guys seem roughly my speed (although a bit better, really!:eek: ) so I thought it would be fun to practice there.

Thanks,

Brian

[johnkichu]

GMU should come to the Yale Tournament (this weekend) to prove themselves.

Don't know about Yale, but I think they're planning to go to the Harvard tournament, though.

[Black Knight]

No disrespect, but, I think the Virginia Tech team (with me on it) would have beaten the GMU team HAHA. GMU should come to the Yale Tournament (this weekend) to prove themselves.

Shazz- Believe me, that team has already proved itself. :grin: There is no question in my mind that they fought and beat some very good teams at William and Mary.

As for your comments on judging, well that happens all the time. Kendo/kumdo scoring is very subjective and if you get hung up about all the points you think you've scored or your teammates have scored, you will find tournaments really frustrating. I know from experience. :wink:

[johnkichu]

Brian,

You should come to Hwarangkwan, not GMU, for the reasons that ywback listed. Also, if you want to find out about Hwarangkwan, you should come to Hwarangkwan.

Let me address some of the points you raise.

Hot rods - There are many more at Hwarangkwan than at GMU.

Paying - They won't bother you with this, until they notice you showing up regularly. If you want to just come an practice a couple of times, and see what it's like, I'm sure they won't mind. As an aside, the kendo dojo I attend has a speical visitor's fee (apart from the regular fees), also, for those who visit regularly. $150 sounds a bit high. I don't pay nearly that much, but I am also on a family plan, so to speak. If you really want to practice regularly, and money is an issue, then you probably should go to GMU; however, you might as well try Hwarangkwan until it does become an issue.

Classes - Hwarangkwan classes are about an hour each, all classes start on the hour. Schedule for the Vienna class:

Mon:

4 PM - private lessons for real beginners (all beginners get 10 private lessons before being thrown into the class)
5 PM - beginner
6 PM - intermediate
7 PM - advanced
8 PM - yudansha class

Tue:

4 PM - private lessons for real beginners (all beginners get 10 private lessons before being thrown into the class)
5 PM - beginner
6 PM - intermediate
7 PM - advanced
8 PM - women's class
9 PM - yudansha class

Wed:

4 PM - private lessons for real beginners (all beginners get 10 private lessons before being thrown into the class)
5 PM - beginner
6 PM - intermediate
7 PM - forms/kata
8 PM - advanced forms/kata

Thu:

4 PM - private lessons for real beginners (all beginners get 10 private lessons before being thrown into the class)
5 PM - beginner
6 PM - intermediate
7 PM - forms/kata
8 PM - women's class
9 PM - yundansh class

Fri:

4 PM - private lessons for real beginners (all beginners get 10 private lessons before being thrown into the class)
5 PM - beginner
6 PM - intermediate
7 PM - advanced
8 PM - yundansha

For you, I'd recommend the advanced or the yudansha class. Many advanced mudansha's come to this class, also Note, however, yundansha class's focus is not on teaching, per se. This is primarily when the instructors practice with each other, and it's basically a keiko class with one side of the room made up entirely of 3-dan and above.

[Shazzanzzz]

Shazz- Believe me, that team has already proved itself. :grin: There is no question in my mind that they fought and beat some very good teams at William and Mary.

As for your comments on judging, well that happens all the time. Kendo/kumdo scoring is very subjective and if you get hung up about all the points you think you've scored or your teammates have scored, you will find tournaments really frustrating. I know from experience. :wink:

well judging is judging. I never blame my losses on judging. But that one team match was ridiculous. I think none of them were even sandan. They were really scared to give points out. I do tournaments quite often, so i try not to think about it. But that one really sticks out.

Anyways, I am glad you are impressed with the GMU team, but there are many better people at hwarang kwan, and also around the dc area. If you make some dojo visits outside your own, you would be surprised. I practice around quite often when i have the time.

[Neil Gendzwill]

At Hwarangkwan grading, all the members of the judging panel know all the applicants well, and they wouldn't have asked you to test in the first place if they felt you weren't ready. [snip]So, during the actual test, instead of spending a lot of time making sure you can do basics correctly, they literally put you through the ringer, literally.So it's not an evaluation, it's a hazing ritual.

[Black Knight]

John-

Thanks for all the info. I really would like to add another weekly practice to my routine, and so if GMU would work for that for free or for a lower fee I'd prefer that. That said, I think I will try to come by Hwarang for a few practices. Thanks very much for the invite.

I am guessing that you visit Shidogakuin? I think I can safely say, that if you want to visit the NoVA kendo group on a regular basis but remain an Hwarang student, you wouldn't have to pay us anything. We have an "open practice" policy. We accept donations from visitors, but there is no requirement. You should come see us sometime in Alexandria. We practice Friday nights from 7-9 and Sundays from 1-3. We are also putting in a brand new wood floor this coming weekend!

Take care,

Brian

[ywback]

Shazzanzzz, friendly's are always welcome, good luck at Yale.

Sorry to hear that they didn't give you those points at your matches, but you gotta learn to live with it. It happens to all of us at some stage. Like one of our instructor says "sucks to be you, suck it up". The refs did the best job they could do, I'm sure they didn't give you those points because they had personal bias against you. pat pat on your back. Next time, they'll reward you with points. don't worry about it!

oh, and please say HI to Peter for me. :)

[johnkichu]

John-

Thanks for all the info. I really would like to add another weekly practice to my routine, and so if GMU would work for that for free or for a lower fee I'd prefer that. That said, I think I will try to come by Hwarang for a few practices. Thanks very much for the invite.

I am guessing that you visit Shidogakuin? I think I can safely say, that if you want to visit the NoVA kendo group on a regular basis but remain an Hwarang student, you wouldn't have to pay us anything. We have an "open practice" policy. We accept donations from visitors, but there is no requirement. You should come see us sometime in Alexandria. We practice Friday nights from 7-9 and Sundays from 1-3. We are also putting in a brand new wood floor this coming weekend!

Take care,

Brian

Brian,

Thanks for the invite - Fridays won't work (same time as Shidogakuin), but I'll definitely keep the Sunday in mind. Does Kim Sensei still practice with you guys?

[johnkichu]

So it's not an evaluation, it's a hazing ritual.

I guess you can call it that - although we are (constantly) being evaluated.

Keep in mind that I am describign a local test, not a federation test. By the way, our kyu tests are not like this. It's more in line with the AUSKF model.

[ywback]

John-
I really would like to add another weekly practice to my routine, and so if GMU would work for that for free or for a lower fee I'd prefer that.


Hi Brian,

as a club, we charge $35/semester if you want to join as a full time member. But our president Andy takes care of all of that.

www.gmu.edu/org/kumdo has more details... not the greatest webpage, but it works. :)

We'll be expecting you both at Mason and at Hwa Rang Kwan.
I normally go to the late classes with Mr JohnKiChu.
He's our mainstream Hotrod with a capital "H"! :)

[johnkichu]

I normally go to the late classes with Mr JohnKiChu.
He's our mainstream Hotrod with a capital "H"! :)

I am definitely NOT a hot rod! I'm just rying to hang in there with guys 20 years younger than me ...

[Shazzanzzz]

Shazzanzzz, friendly's are always welcome, good luck at Yale.

Sorry to hear that they didn't give you those points at your matches, but you gotta learn to live with it. It happens to all of us at some stage. Like one of our instructor says "sucks to be you, suck it up". The refs did the best job they could do, I'm sure they didn't give you those points because they had personal bias against you. pat pat on your back. Next time, they'll reward you with points. don't worry about it!

oh, and please say HI to Peter for me. :)

haha. i guess i made myself look like a crybaby. oh well.

About the friendly, i guess i'll email Andy about it? You can bring it up to your club too. I think it would be fun. April 7th or 14th would work.

[johnkichu]

about what one of our 9 PM classes look like:

http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=johnkichu&P=&AID=4371689&CID=1588895&T=1&E=Y&ILD=3181254

and

http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=johnkichu&P=&AID=4371761&CID=1588895&T=1&E=Y&ILD=3181255 (http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=johnkichu&P=&AID=4371761&CID=1588895&T=1&E=Y&ILD=3181255)

This was the first time I took out my new camera for a test drive, so I was still fiddling around with settings/lens combo ...

And please don't pay attention to the shopping carts - I'm not trying to sell photos. I just can't figure out how to turn them off in dotphoto.com. I use the service, because they don't seem to have a limit on storage.

[Shazzanzzz]

I am definitely NOT a hot rod! I'm just rying to hang in there with guys 20 years younger than me ...

john's lying. he routinely beat us younger people to the ground, push us into walls, and stand on top of us shouting "Victory!"

[bpaang]

john's lying. he routinely beat us younger people to the ground, push us into walls, and stand on top of us shouting "Victory!"

if you think he's touch in practice imagine what he's like as a father ahahahaha

[tango]

So it's not an evaluation, it's a hazing ritual.

That's what it sounded like to me, too.
Reminded me of almost all the belt testings I went through in TKD.... kinda like they already pegged you for the rank (or your money for the rank, maybe) and now it was about "we recognize that you are x-rank, but here's a healthy dose of "don't get a big head" about it..."

Whatever.


... now.. this also reminds me of my own kendo instructor who passed 4.dan almost 20 years ago in Japan. Just a regular testing, I suppose. And then before coming back to the states, his instructor promptly marched him down to the police department for practice with them .... "just to make sure he didn't get a big head about reaching 4.dan"....

[ahmed61086]

[quote=tango;243609].... kinda like they already pegged you for the rank (or your money for the rank, maybe) ....quote]

Yeh, I think that the saubanim allready know who is ready for the rank, so they just put you through torture to give it to you.

I dont think its like what you said in parenthesis though, because even kumdo hasn't stooped down to the level of Mcdojo, even though the school is for profit, there is still alot of tradition involved.

My dojangs rank evaluation is closer to AUSKF testings. Same format, except we include Bonguk Kumbup.

[johnkichu]

... (or your money for the rank, maybe) ...


Well, that was a needless insertion into an otherwise intelligent post.

This is not about money. Let me point out two things. One, if this was about money, Hwarangkwan wouldn't make you practice diligently (> 3 days a week) for over three years to test. They'd be rushing people through, a la McDojo. Second, if you knew who we had as one of the judges, you'd understand why we'd be more than happy to pay the small test fee for him to come to our school and judge us and stick around and teach us (and I'm sure the fees didn't cover even a fourth of the expenses).

[enkorat]

I was going to stay out of this thread because I don't have too much personal dealing with the kumdo organization in question. I have fought several kumdo people during Chicago and Detroit, several times, and both times I've come away with an impression of impeccable competance.

The one point that I don't think that has been mentioned on this thread yet, and may provide an alterative perspective is the idea that like at any rank, there is a range of skill because of how experienced you are in the rank.

When I first passed shodan, I thought to myself, "finally! I will be able to have matches decided on skill and finesse, and I will be on par with everyone else in my division!"

I lost my first fights in like less than a minute. It was humbling, no actually depressing. I blamed things initially like being tired from traveling, not being on my "A" game, and having to oraganize too much for my club (you can search for the thread that I posted around that time).

All of these in part were true, and all stuff I've tried to address since that time with a variety of strategies, but it was not addressing the heart of the issue. The truth is I had fallen into the trap of thinking that passing a shodan exam was like, excuse the geeky metaphor, "leveling up" in some adventure game where I was granted an immediate increase in skill. I know mentally that wasn't true at any point, but I think subconciously I ended up thinking that way.

I realized that even in the shodan division, there are going to be people who are just about to test for nidan and graduate to the next level, and the skill differential between me at the time (one month past ikkyu) and those people was still going to be pretty significant. I realized after a sensei mentioned that a "rank" was more of a "bracket" with an entry point and an exit point, that just because we're in the same "shodan division" doesn't really mean that we're the same in experience and skill.

You could have a number of different factors coming in to play. You could have someone who passed shodan and then "slacked off", versus someone who passed shodan and is conciously working towards nidan. If you make up a team with the first kind of person, and the second team with the second type of person, then I'd expect a large difference in performance.

I dunno, just a different thought.

[johnkichu]

Enkorat,

Good point, and well said!

[johnkichu]

Neil's comment made me think about this from a totally different perspective. In addition to being tested for a particular set of skills, at some level, I guess the whole testing thing is a rite of passage of a sort - an initiation into a new group - and therefore full of tradition and perceived symbolism, etc..., of that particular group. It's be interesting to see what an anthropologist or a sociologist would say about all this.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's a more polite way to put it than "hazing ritual", but yes I think in many organizations that's exactly what it is. You go through a very tough "test" and when you come out the other end, you're part of a club. I've read about this sort of exam in various karate and jujutsu clubs, so you're not alone.

[tango]

Well, that was a needless insertion into an otherwise intelligent post.

This is not about money. Let me point out two things. One, if this was about money, Hwarangkwan wouldn't make you practice diligently (> 3 days a week) for over three years to test. They'd be rushing people through, a la McDojo. Second, if you knew who we had as one of the judges, you'd understand why we'd be more than happy to pay the small test fee for him to come to our school and judge us and stick around and teach us (and I'm sure the fees didn't cover even a fourth of the expenses).


I haven't read any responses (yet) after this one, but I wanted to clarify that my parenthetical statement was in reference to my TKD experience.

At the time, as I recall...
white-orange-green-blue-brown-red-black
n/a - $30 - $30 - $50 - $75 - $90 - $500 (1st degree black belt.. $500)...

just fyi.

[Old Warrior]

Neil's comment made me think about this from a totally different perspective. In addition to being tested for a particular set of skills, at some level, I guess the whole testing thing is a rite of passage of a sort - an initiation into a new group - and therefore full of tradition and perceived symbolism, etc..., of that particular group. It's be interesting to see what an anthropologist or a sociologist would say about all this.

What about intellectual knowledge of kendo? What about people with handicaps and skill limitations? What about dedication to the dojang and time spent working with juniors? If any of these categories count, they are not measured in an exam.

I know I posted this once before, but I was greeted by one of the examiners just after I took the nidan "test". I apologized for doing less than a perfect job on Bonguk Kumbup (the ancient Korean sword form). His comment was that there much more that goes into the grading process and that I shouldn't worry".

I'm not suggesting I have answers to this issue, only thoughts. From my perspective, I show up, train, and look forward to the next class. Nothing else really matters.

[johnkichu]

What about people with handicaps and skill limitations?

Skill limitations? You mean physical limitations, right? Skill limitations, to me, mean that you probably should develop the skills and not test right now. I think almost all schools and senseis, including ours, make accommodations for those who are physically impaired.


I know I posted this once before, but I was greeted by one of the examiners just after I took the nidan "test". I apologized for doing less than a perfect job on Bonguk Kumbup (the ancient Korean sword form). His comment was that there much more that goes into the grading process and that I shouldn't worry".

Truly, there is a big subjective component to testing, and I think that’s true everywhere.


From my perspective, I show up, train, and look forward to the next class. Nothing else really matters.

I agree, and great attitude!

[enkorat]

This is an interesting question. Are you even allowed to test in both schools? I mean, if it's a legit kumdo school, it should have the KKA-IKF approval, so why do you need to test in both schools?

We have a club member that I believe is ranked via KKA, although he keeps forgetting to make a copy of his certificate when he's at home. From what I understand a KKA rank is equivalent to an AUSKF rank. I guess we'll find out when he decides to test and we start the forms process and things start getting sent around.

From what I read in the most recent AUSKF newsletter, and from what I recall from our last regional federation meeting, the KKA in the US are in the "last rounds of discussion" with AUSKF to be incorporated with the AUSKF as its own regional federation.

Not a lot of things were said at the last meeting I was at in regards to the logistics or the details of how this was going to happen, but to paraphrase the word from one of the boardmembers who has much more knowledge of these negotatiations told all of us to "don't be exclusionary, be nice, and play nicely together."

Lots of nodding, murmuring, and paper shuffling happened right afterward...

[Eliza]

Aww John, those pictures of late night practice make me really miss training with you all! Miss you! :O