Kyu-grades...are they needed?

[JSchmidt]

The kyu-grade thread got me going again on whether or not that the lower kyu-grades are really necessary.
In Japan they're mainly aimed at children to give them achievable goals and in the UK the first grading you'll take is Ikkyu.
(Although they have socalled 'open gradings', aimed at beginners, where a grade up to 2nd kyu will be awarded).
As far as I understand, it will, in the countries at insists on using the lower kyu grades easily take up to 3 years to get shodan..the same time it took me to get nidan, yet when I took my grading in Belgium, I couldnt really see any difference between those who had gone through the whole 6th-1st kyu thing and the ones from the UK who hadnt.
On the same note, you could, in theory, reach shodan in the UK in 6 months, but most people still spend at least 1 year before ikkyu and usually another year before shodan.
What's the benefits of using the lower kyu-grades?

[AlexM]

Having no official grades until ikkyu hasn't hurt Canada's level of kendo in the least (we're apparently in line with the British on this one).

My personal opinion is that it helps to be "thrown in" against higher level kendoka earlier rather than later.

Although, it is awkward when you find out that you're higher graded than other people who have been practicing longer than you have.

[Nishi]

Here in the U.K. kyu grades are the resposibility of each individual dojo. At do shin ken yu kai we hold open grading more or less twice a year and as Jakob mentioned they are "open", you can achieve 6th-2nd kyu. These open gradings give beginners a motivator/goal and also introduce the grading format, as we do everything the way BKA gradings are run. This has proven very successful, as all our candidates for ikkyu recently looked relativley comforatable and new exactly what would happen on the day of their exam.

I have seen two students get shodan in under 10 months in the uk, and both are on their 4rth attempt for nidan now. I think the point here is eligable dosnt always mean ready, they'll end up hitting the 3-4 year mark that most require to pass nidan in terms of keiko.

I think countries that dont require kyu grades do give an advantage over, those countries that hold students for a couple of years at the kyu grade level, and i agree fully with Jakob, i havnt seen a difference in any kenshi with regards to longer time spent at the kyu grade level, kendo is to indvidual for that.

[berghaan]

Just my personal opinion here..
looking at naginata mainly (should be the same as kendo I think) kyu gradings should be there to form the path to the dan grades.
During the time people are on their way to the dan grades they learn more then just the suburi and such, it is about things like etiquette also. I believe shodan should be something people grow into, not fall into.
It should be some kind of marker of seniority/experience.

[taiwnezboi]

It seems like shodan basically doesn't mean anything to most of you guys and should be achieved within a year. Is it like that in Japan too? Mizobe sensei told me that the average time it takes to get shodan should be 5 years, and that's about how long it takes to get it at our dojang too. I guess the question is, what is the "traditional" amount of time it should take to get shodan and how come it's not being followed anymore?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I guess the question is, what is the "traditional" amount of time it should take to get shodan and how come it's not being followed anymore?
According to my sensei, when these things were originally being sorted out a shodan was the equivalent of menkyo, so more like 5 or 6 dan now. You could expect to take 10 years minimum. But that changed after the war and now shodan is typically 2 or 3 years starting as an adult. In other martial arts it is longer (I've heard 5 years minimum for judo). In Japan it's about the same and regarded as an encouragment rank, more so the older you are. In many places outside of Japan there is a tendency to glamourise the "black belt" and so people feel it should be tougher - sometimes local federations will set standards much higher than the IKF one. I like that it's a relatively easy goal - it gets the whole BB thing out of the way and done with. Face it - when you get your shodan after 2 years, unless you're a completely self-absorbed idiot you must realise that your kendo is just beginning and that you aren't very good compared to your teachers. There's no fooling yourself into thinking you're some sort of "master", unless you're easily fooled.

[mingshi]

According to my sensei, when these things were originally being sorted out a shodan was the equivalent of menkyo, so more like 5 or 6 dan now.
:confused:
hmmm I thought Shodan is the equivalent of Shoden, and the Shogyo (i.e. Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi) is the equivalent of Menkyo/Menkyo Kaiden???

I am not against Kyu gradings, but at least between federations they should have kept the same standards. IKF's Shodan only has to do Kendo Kata #1-3. Hong Kong's first grade is Shodan and not Kyu. Then there are a few countries which grade people from 6,5,4,3,2,1kyu to Shodan, and blame that the other countries are producing Shodan too fast, too soon.

[Neil Gendzwill]

:confused:
hmmm I thought Shodan is the equivalent of Shoden, and the Shogyo (i.e. Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi) is the equivalent of Menkyo/Menkyo Kaiden???

I'm talking about a long time ago. My understanding is that the current rank of 5 or 6 dan would probably be a rough equivalent of the menkyo in some koryu, but pre-WWII that level was shodan. This according to my instructor, I don't have any corroboration on that.

Anyway, the main point is that the standard used to be higher, now it's 2 or 3 years of part time study. It doesn't really matter what it is so long as it's consistent so I think that federations which are trying to make it tougher would be better off simply following the IKF lead.

[samurai999]

Ahh.. the great "is shodan a real level or is it like 5kyu" thing again. Well if people have been reading threads, I believe that it does signal something big. It signals the opening of a new door towards your own kendo.

My sensei believes in this as well. He believes this firmly and he even gives all of the shodan people at my dojo a nice plaque to signal a momentous achievement. Although it obviously doesn't signal TOTAL mastery, it does signal competence in something, otherwise, it won't mean anything. The next significant step is 4dan and you get a plaque for that. Then renshi, kyoshi, then hanshi (if ur lucky haha).

I guess at our dojo, we believe that kyus get taught and schooled by mainly sensei and partly sempai. Dan sorta signifies that you start teaching and schooling yourself. You can't rely on your sensei EVERY TIME to learn stuff. Plus you should have learned something. If u can't do men or kote correctly or start sticking and bashing other people, u really don't deserve dan.. There is a person at our dojo who has failed to get 1dan for 2 tests now and he has been playing longer than me. the person first failed the kendo portion.. Then next test, the same person passed kendo and failed the kata.. I think that this is some proof that shodan is still not as easy to get as everybody thinks..


edit edit edit:
Of course there are part timers in kendo. Who does this full time except for the Nippon keisatsu? We all have our careers, schools and other interests.

Tim

[samurai999]

well to answer the question, yes they should be there. Say if we set the requirement to 5 years as what was done in the past and eliminated kyu grades. Whos to say that the person testing for shodan in 5 years actually practices? People don't practice 5x a day like in Japan. Joe Schmoe might come frequently or occaisionally, but he might constantly quit in the middle to answer a page from work or to work some wierd shift. What about those people now that play the role of slacker for 3/4 of a year and come in 1 month before practice expecting to pass 6-2kyu?

Also dojo size is another thing. When you have close to 50-60 people practicing at once with maybe 100 people enrolled at the dojo (such as ours), it is VERY difficult to keep up with peoples certain abilities. We always look at people who stand out, but we can't keep track of everybody.

In most circumstances, no matter how many years we set, the sensei of the dojo is responsible for determining whether a kenshi is capable of reaching some designated rank. Sometimes, it is the sempai or whoever is the highest rank at the dojo. (sometimes it is run by a 2dan or 3dan) They might not be as conscious to a person's abilities. It is very difficult to keep track of somebodys progress for 5 years without some structure.

So to make a long story short, the kyu grades should be there to give beginners (children and adult) goals to achieve in order to get to shodan. I also think that it is a bit easier for the sensei to separate a beginners development through kyus.. 6kyu should be yadda yadda yadda.. 5th kyu should be like blah blah blah.. etc etc etc..

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

Whos to say that the person testing for shodan in 5 years actually practices?
That would be what the test is for. It's all out there on the court. AFAIK if someone can pass the exam with once a month practice and someone else needs everyday, fine by me - just set the standard and apply it consistently. I was briefly involved with aikido, and the club I trained at kept strict attendance records. X hours of training before grading for Y-kyu or whatever. What's the point of that? The candidate can either meet the requirements or not.

Now if you want to prevent someone from grading because they haven't shown enough commitment or aren't of good character or whatever, that's a different kettle of fish - but that's what the instructor's permission to grade is for.

[Old Warrior]

"...the club I trained at kept strict attendance records. X hours of training before grading for Y-kyu or whatever. What's the point of that? The candidate can either meet the requirements or not."

Where did all the philosophical concepts go, about the way of the sword, the values associated with the study, etc. etc.? You mean someone who trains 4 days a week for six months and clearly has mastered what is expected of him, who has a bad day - FAILS? I don't know, I think for all grades decided at the dojo level, when you are allowed to take the test, the decision ought to be just about made, as to whether you are worthy of the rank. I also believe that commitment, dedication and effort counts and attendance is an important component. I wouldn't like the idea that because I was disabled in some fashion that my command of other aspects of the subject matter would prevent me from finding a place in the Kendo hierarchy. Also, I don't believe that someone who has earned a rank should lose it because they have been injured/disabled and can't perform at their former level. Somehow, I think there ought to be more associated with rank then how one does on a particular day.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You mean someone who trains 4 days a week for six months and clearly has mastered what is expected of him, who has a bad day - FAILS?
Yes. The gradings for dan are by committee. You remove your zekken and are identified by number. When you go up before the panel they don't necessarily know who you are or what your attendance or whatever is - they just know your age and whatever you give them on the floor. Ideally. For the higher ranks of course everyone knows exactly who you are despite the lack of zekken and some politics or personal stuff can enter into it. For me personally it's always been about my performance on the day and when I've failed I've known exactly why - it wasn't injury or anything else out of my control, it was just bad preparation and nerves. Which is the point of having a test, after all. If it's just a formal confirmation of an already decided rank, why bother?


Also, I don't believe that someone who has earned a rank should lose it because they have been injured/disabled and can't perform at their former level.

That doesn't happen.

[kendomushi]

"Where did all the philosophical concepts go, about the way of the sword, the values associated with the study, etc. etc.? You mean someone who trains 4 days a week for six months and clearly has mastered what is expected of him, who has a bad day - FAILS?

The judges make a call on the philosophical concepts and all by watching your doing kendo. They expect a person with a given understanding of all aspects of kendo will perform in a certain way.

[taiwnezboi]

OW: If your dojang is anything like ours, doesn't your Sabumnim do the gradings? I know at our dojang we have gradings every month and our Sabumnim doesn't let us grade unless he thinks we are already at that level, or something like that.

[Flashman]

I know an 8th Dan goju-ryu stylist who never tests in his dojo since his philosophy is that anytime you are in the dojo you are being tested. He awards you your kyu ranks when he feels you are ready. Dan ranking is done before a committee.

[Old Warrior]

taiwanezboi

That is exactly how it works for us. Moreover, I think it makes sense for the less than Dan grades. This way it gives the kids something to strive for, stresses the need for practice and serves as encouragement. By the way, I was in Reston last month as ours son is marrying a local gal.

[taiwnezboi]

OW: You should've dropped by the dojang. It would have been exciting to watch you go against Mr. Song, the nito practitioner at our dojang. =P

[nox]

don't know if its just me
but i've seen people go through the 6-1st kyu thing and then people who went straight to 1st kyu on their first grading

those guys who went straight to 1st kyu were getting their butts kicked in matches by people who were only 5th kyu

i mean speed, technique, accuracy; pretty much the whole package

[dorkusxmaximus]

I totally dig the kyu grades, but that's just a personal opinion of mine. It differentiates an experienced 1st dan from an inexperienced shodan because that inexperienced 1st degree blackbelt received shodan on their first try.

[Old Warrior]

I've been pursuing Kumdo for a year now, going 3-4 times a week. I am a 4 geup. It could easily take another year before I qualify to take the exam for shodan. I can state with certainty that, on a good day, I have bested a few shodans or higher in a single bout. Is my Kumdo better than theirs - not in any way, shape or form. I have learned that Kumdo is a lot more than winning a bout.

From my limited perception, rank should be a reflection of many factors including skill level, knowledge, diligence of attendance, contribution to your school (not money) and others. I think the Kyu system has its value in that it sets up a ranking standard that, at minimum, tell you where you stand in line and at maximum grades your performance. I don't believe that ones pure level of skill should be the only determinative factor in rank. Pure skill is rewarded in competition. I think your rank is a more complex issue.

[JSchmidt]

I totally dig the kyu grades, but that's just a personal opinion of mine. It differentiates an experienced 1st dan from an inexperienced shodan because that inexperienced 1st degree blackbelt received shodan on their first try.
How so?..if they both met the criteria for passing shodan, shouldnt they both be shodan?

Jakob

[dorkusxmaximus]

How so?..if they both met the criteria for passing shodan, shouldnt they both be shodan?

Jakob


Okay, maybe i'm just thinking in terms of competition. Inexperienced shodans just wouldn't last for very long like what Nox said. I'm happy for those that receive shodan as their first rank, but it doesn't give SOME of them the right to think they're better than the kyu grades because they're a "blackbelt". They might have a lot of knowledge blah blah blah, but I've seen kyus beat shodans at taikais. I'm not all about rank, I'm more about how many years and experience the practitioner has put into their art.

[Chook]

Where I am, gradings are every 6 months. I'm 4th kyu despite being in kendo for 1 and a half years. No real gripe with that, but man, some of you guys progress FAST!

[dorkusxmaximus]

Where I am, gradings are every 6 months. I'm 4th kyu despite being in kendo for 1 and a half years. No real gripe with that, but man, some of you guys progress FAST!

That's the same thing here in the US. Which dojo do you practice at? There's an Australian girl that's practicing at our dojo right now. I think she's from Kenshinkan-did I spell that right?

[Yowai]

Okay, maybe i'm just thinking in terms of competition. Inexperienced shodans just wouldn't last for very long like what Nox said. I'm happy for those that receive shodan as their first rank, but it doesn't give SOME of them the right to think they're better than the kyu grades because they're a "blackbelt". They might have a lot of knowledge blah blah blah, but I've seen kyus beat shodans at taikais. I'm not all about rank, I'm more about how many years and experience the practitioner has put into their art.


An exam passes people for completing a set of criterias. I think you are confused over the purpose of examiniation. A person that is a shodan has passed the shodan criteria, and a non-shodan has not passed the shodan criteria or has not been examined.

Your arguement does not follow.

[olaf]

Hi Folks,

Perhaps the original question has been sidetracked somewhat. As Yowai points out, the point of an examination is purely to assess whether an examinee has met a set of criteria, and if so, to acknowledge that he has successfully done so.

I think how one performs in the shiaijo is another story altogether. Using dorkusmaximus' example, a fresh shodan losing a point in a match against a top-notch ikkyu shouldn't be viewed as an anomaly. First of all, it was just *a* single point; perhaps a timing fluke, perhaps truly a show of better skill. It doesn't somehow certify the ikkyu's superiority over the shodan, nor does it suggest that the shodan "didn't deserve" to be awarded his rank.

Back to the original question about kyu-grades. As I understanding it, many dojos begin grading adult students at the ikkyu or shodan levels. For them, "skipping" the lower kyu grades makes sense because it's a small administrative hassle for acknowledging very little. One could joking suggest that 5th kyu, for instance, means nothing more than the fact that you are able to walk arond in hakama and not trip over. Or maybe 6th kyu means that you know which side of the shinai ought to face upwards. :) In other words, maybe these dojos see 1st kyu or 1st dan as truly the first "milestone" in a student's kendo career, a point at which he has really learned a significant set of skills.

On the other hand, many dojos continue to award lower kyu grades to children. The reason for this, I think, is two-fold: first, children are not allowed to test for shodan until they reach a certain age, so if a student starts at a very early age, there are potentially many many years during which he cannot test for any rank, which, for some children, might be a bit discouraging. Similarly, giving children regular tokens of recognition (even if they do not signify that much in terms of accomplishment in the dojo) could provide them encouragement to continue their pursuit of kendo. A friend of mine once suggested that kyu-grades for children are a bit like the "smelly stickers" they award kids in kindergarten and early grade school!

Occasionally, some federations require that all students begin all the way from 6th kyu. I think the German federation (DKenB) is one such example. These cases, I think, are just a matter of the authorities being strict, or if you prefer, adhering to tradition. As someone pointed out earlier, a typical shodan nowadays probably has as much skill as what was once a 5th kyu!

Sorry for such a wordy post!

[dorkusxmaximus]

I know quite well what the purpose of an exam is. I don't need you to tell me that. Again, I'm talking about on a COMPETITIVE LEVEL. Not all federations around the world offer shodan as their first grade, and that doesn't bother me at all. A person testing for shodan as their very first rank is the same of a no rank testing for a rank. I don't know if the requirements for shodan is the same for kendo federations around the world (maybe it is, maybe it isn't.), but from what I was told, the tester should know when to attack the opponent, and have some understanding of their opponent. Shouldn't that mean they won't have too much trouble going up against kyus at taikais or even during ji-geiko since these shodans know when to attack? Come on, these kyus don't know how to find an opening because they're not a shodan. Non-shodans will just hit relentlessly until they score, right? I'm sure those shodans will never do such a thing.

[olaf]

dorkusmaximus,

No one is trying to lecture you on the textbook definition of what an "exam" is, or what a kendo exam should entail. Apologies if sounded condescending earlier.

You're right - a rank of "shodan" means little more than understanding and being able to carrying out several small tidbits of kendo. These tidbits are by no means standardized across the world - ZNKR lists their own basic "recommendations" for shodan testers, and many federations do the same. Nowhere in these lists of requirements is it mandated, "must be able to pound a kyu-grade into the ground blindfolded." :)

At the same time, does this "guarantee" that, as you put it, shodan-ranked players "won't have much trouble" against lower-ranked players? On this point, I would say, "not really". Or an outright "no". In fact, I'd say for a shodan to score clean, crisp points on a kyu-grade is not that easy at all.

As you've pointed out, you've seen kyu-grades take down shodans in the shiaijo. It happens, and it's not an uncommon an occurence as one would think.

You spoke of shodans "knowing" when to attack, versus kyu-grades, who just attack relentlessly. Forgive me for being the devil's advocate here, so you're suggesting that a shodan ought to have pretty good "mastery" of spotting, creating openings, ascertaining correct distance, and so on? I would challenge you on that assertion - I think shodan is the first point at which a player even begins to grasp, let alone fully comprehend, these concepts.

You're from the USA, so I'll use the AUSKF as an example. Look at their "promotion study guide" on their web site: http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/study_guide.htm

The "requirements" for shodan are basically no more than being able to score a couple (not all the time) clean points (yuko-datotsu), and use a bit of nidan waza. Only at nidan-level are students expected to start to master the opportunity of attack, employing techinques like oji-waza, shikake-waza, seme, etc. If you read the ZNKR publications, they (ironically) seem to demand even less, stressing the importance of striking relentlessly (ie, good spirit) when taking the shodan exam.

To put it more simply, someone testing for shodan probably has a year or so more experience than a kyu-grade if they were matched together in a shiai. It's unlikely that they'll pair up a top-notch shodan with a 5th kyu. Is this single year's worth of experience enough training to ensure that the shodan pummels the kyu-grade opponent? Certainly not. Recall that some people spend an entire lifetime practicing this sport. You're right - the shodan may stand a slightly better chance, but the match outcome is far from certain.

To phrase my argument another way, when you were shodan, and you did jigeiko against nidan players, were you absolutely demolished by them, unable to even give them a moderately hard time? Likewise, when you fought kyu-grades, were you 100% confident that they didn't even stand a chance against you?

Comments, anyone?

[dorkusxmaximus]

I wasn't referring to you, so you don't need to apologize, Olaf =). I thought you knew that I was talking to good ol' Yowai here. My apologies to you. I should've specified the person I was talking to. Umm my last two sentences from that last post of mine were actually sarcastic =X.

These shodan-ranked players will probably have trouble with a kyu based on the factors of how manys years that kyu has practiced. A shiai is pretty much an indicator of how much practice a person has put into the improvement of their kendo, and it's not much of a difference from regular keiko. I'm not saying in anyway that a shodan is supposed to have mastery of things like that. They are just supposed to have some sort of understanding of suki, seme, timing, etc., but it's not like kyus don't what it is either. Shodans are just supposed to know a little more, IMO. Okay, maybe I'm being anal when it comes to something like shodan because kendo to me is still somewhat of a martial art, or it could be the fact that I was born and raised in Western culture. A lot of Americans tend to think a blackbelt is some sort of "master". Anyway, you don't see other martial art teachers allow their students to test for a blackbelt on their first try. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about and the reason why. You know that each time a martial artist has earned a rank signifies a step towards improvement and understanding. Wasn't that why the belt/rank system was developed in the first place? Wasn't it to see how much that person has improved? Why should kendo be treated any differently? Is it because it has evolved into a "sport", or there's really nothing that complex about it since we're just beating each other up with bamboo sticks? It's not like a kyu doesn't learn anything at all from going up one kyu rank at a time.

[Isak]

Iv'e got nidan and went hikiwake against a yondan when I had shodan, on the other hand I got pounded by a shodan. What am I, nearly yondan och less than shodan? (and the differences between these grades are way bigger than the difference between shodan and 5 kyu..).

[Neil Gendzwill]

A shiai is pretty much an indicator of how much practice a person has put into the improvement of their kendo, and it's not much of a difference from regular keiko.
Huh? A shiai is a hyooge difference from regular keiko for most people. If your kendo is super clean and perfect then you can play shiai the same way you play in the dojo or for shinsa but most people bring out their bag of tricks and start to become aware of little things like the boundaries. It's not uncommon at all for a person of wildly lower rank to score against higher ranks - look at the all-Japan championships when they used to allow sandans in there. There's all sorts of hyper-quick shodan or nidan guys that can give me trouble in the shiai-jo. There's a big difference between scoring a point and where your kendo is at overall. Here's an example - if you play an older gentleman who is nanadan or better, try jumping in and tagging his kote real quick, then running away sideways. You might well be able to do it, and that could be a point. Now check your sensei's attitude to that "point" - you'll see complete indifference. He doesn't care about it, and as far as he's concerned you're wasting your time when you could have been working on more important stuff.


A lot of Americans tend to think a blackbelt is some sort of "master". Anyway, you don't see other martial art teachers allow their students to test for a blackbelt on their first try.
Exactly right - the American expectation of blackbelt as some sort of master gets in the way and clouds thinking, including yours. The Japanese standard for shodan is about 2 years of good practice for an adult. Who is any other federation to say that's wrong? It's just a level, call it what you like - the only problem comes in where different people have different names for the same level. As far as I'm concerned, getting that whole black belt thing out of the way early is a good thing - the person concerned knows his kendo isn't that great (unless he's a complete idiot) and we don't get the whole "look at me, I'm shodan" thing happening in kendo.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Neil,

I wouldn't acknowledge a point unless the teacher accept it as one. Heck, I still can't really tell apart a good kote from a bad one. About boundaries, I don't like boundaries, but anyway, it's my fault if I step out of bounds, right (assuming I wasn't pushed out) ? Shouldn't that mean that I need to still work on distance and footwork?

[Nanbanjin]

Kyu grades are fine but they need to be available so good players can get through them quickly. I know a player who is probably nidan level but is stuck at 3rd kyu because he lived in Adelaide and they could never get the higher grades to do gradings.
I graded to shodan after living in Japan for a year, so I feel like the same opportunity should be available for my friend.

[samurai999]

Neil,

I wouldn't acknowledge a point unless the teacher accept it as one. Heck, I still can't really tell apart a good kote from a bad one. About boundaries, I don't like boundaries, but anyway, it's my fault if I step out of bounds, right (assuming I wasn't pushed out) ? Shouldn't that mean that I need to still work on distance and footwork?

Hey dm. Harada sensei (our nationals coach) always told us that if we get pushed out of bounds or step out of bounds, it is our fault for being there in the first place. I believe that the best way is to have good "court awareness". Proper footwork and maai are one thing, but you gotta be aware of that "X" in the middle of the court. Also before the match, I usually walk around on all the courts a bit. Get a feel of how big the court is. If it is short or huge, you adjust accordingly. If you aren't aware of where the bounds are when you are in a match, look for that "X" and adjust accordingly.

We never play with boundaries when we do our regular keiko so nobody really has good court awareness when they first start. You just need to participate in more taikais in order to get that type of recognition.

My 0.02$(US),
Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

You gotta listen to Glen, he's Canadian :)

Simply being aware of the court boundaries helps avoid jogai much of the time, and it's a main beginner's mistake. Of course sometimes you just end up near the edge. In that case it's your job to be ready and not get knocked out. For that reason (among others) in your everyday practice, don't be passive about receiving taiatari. Make your best effort to stop the attacker. This also helps the attacker - for example, if the drill is men-taiatari-sagari-men, if you just let yourself be punted backwards as motodachi, the attacker won't be able to properly execute the sagari-men.

[Hai_hai]

Neil,

I wouldn't acknowledge a point unless the teacher accept it as one. Heck, I still can't really tell apart a good kote from a bad one. About boundaries, I don't like boundaries, but anyway, it's my fault if I step out of bounds, right (assuming I wasn't pushed out) ? Shouldn't that mean that I need to still work on distance and footwork?

That's the same thing as not accepting target area boundaries. Rules are rules.
To get used to the court boundaries, slowly walk around the edge of the court and throw salt around. Stomp your feet with your hands on your knees.

[Relic]

In Denmark, each club grades internally below 1st kyu.
One club has beginners start at 6th kyu, another at 10th kyu. It is a nice system for reasons I think others have already covered.

Grading for ikkyu is done under DKF regulation (Danish Kendo Federation), and dan grades are under IKF regulation.

I have been told that shodan is a recognition of one's kihon. It is far from mastery, but rather a recognition that one is ready to progress beyond basic techniques. Also, from shodan and on one is expected to take a more active part in acquiring new skills, i.e. you can't always expect the teacher to come to you with new knowledge, you also have to seek some for yourself.

Ikkyu and shodan were both great acknowledgements for me to receive, and I like the thought that my kihon is in some way 'approved'. I still have a strong focus on kihon (which we fortunately spend a lot of time on in our club) but have received training in techniques that are appropriate to nidan or sandan, on my teachers initiative.

[ALI G]

That's the same thing as not accepting target area boundaries. Rules are rules.
To get used to the court boundaries, slowly walk around the edge of the court and throw salt around. Stomp your feet with your hands on your knees.

Now Iz rememberz where I seen youz momz....

[lwegerich]

Occasionally, some federations require that all students begin all the way from 6th kyu. I think the German federation (DKenB) is one such example. These cases, I think, are just a matter of the authorities being strict, or if you prefer, adhering to tradition.

It is in fact true that the German federation (DKenB) requires to grade beginning from 6th kyu. I think the real purpose for this is the grading fee you pay to the DKenB itself.

On the other hand the germans have a strong tendancy to organize everything from mass tourism to mass executions so why not getting some organization into Kendo gradings? ;)