Shinkendo?

[Kyung]

I was surfing the imdb because I wondered what happened to Keno from TMNT movie #2. Then I looked over to Master Tatsu and found some info on him....
Founder of Shinkendo? What is that?
Toshishiro Obata is his name and http://www.shinkendo.com/bio.html is his game.

[ender84567]

it commercial kendo.

[Hisham]

I was surfing the imdb because I wondered what happened to Keno from TMNT movie #2. Then I looked over to Master Tatsu and found some info on him....
Founder of Shinkendo? What is that?
Toshishiro Obata is his name and http://www.shinkendo.com/bio.html is his game.

Do a search for shinkendo, you'll find some old threads about it.
I personally lost some respect for the guy when i saw his demo in last years Paris-Bercy martial arts festival.

[Kenzan]

it commercial kendo.

It's nothing like Kendo, Thank the Gods.

[MrBump]

I believe the general consensus is that Obata's qualifications are legit and his training principles are sound.

People have various opinions about how he chooses to present his art.

[Max C.]

I suggest you go see a course if you really want to know what it's all about. It's pretty much respected in all serious circles; kendo-world is a different thing though, maybe because of the name. :wink: .

And yes it is not kendo, just like kenjutsu.

[Kaoru]

Yes, it's quite legit. It's in my list, as a result. :)

Shinkendo is a Gendai(post Meiji art and it roughly means "new.") budo form. It's kenjutsu.

If you go to the International Shinkendo Federation website, there is a lot more info on it, and also a list of recognised dojos. There are quite a few here in the states. Any dojo not on that list should be checked out with the federation to be sure they are authorised.

Anyway, go check it out if you can.

Oh. I don't have time to give the link to the above site. And, e-budo will also have some good threads on the subject. Do look there. I've run across a few there.

Kaoru

[Hisham]

kendo-world is a different thing though, maybe because of the name

For the record what i stated is my own humble view, i felt that the man embarassed himself while trying to cut wielding two shinkens during that demo, a publicity stunt i don't know, me being too serious in my judgement eventhough i've never practiced kenjustsu or iai in my life? may be and i stand corrected if it is so.

PS: i always wondered how can a sword (by sword i meant shinken) art be gendai?!

[Obukan_dude]

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/5479715/detail.html

[Neil Gendzwill]

PS: i always wondered how can a sword art be gendai?!Kendo is often used as an example of gendai-budo.

[Hisham]

Kendo is often used as an example of gendai-budo.

I just edited my post before you posted yours.


i always wondered how can a sword (by sword i meant shinken) art be gendai?!

[Aden]

Lots of gendai shinken arts - but the most visible of them are the ones deriving one way or the other from the training of the Japanese army / navy schools pre WW2 - Toyama Ryu / Nakamura Ryu / Shinkendo / Jissen Budo Takayama Ryu ....

IMHO they are unmistakably gendai, since they are not just reordering or even reforming of classical curriculum like the Kendo Federations seitei iaido but are based on a curriculum created for the needs of the early 20th century military informed by people like Nakamura sensei's classical training.

Aden
Uninformed and opinionated as always!

[Hisham]

Lots of gendai shinken arts - but the most visible of them are the ones deriving one way or the other from the training of the Japanese army / navy schools pre WW2 - Toyama Ryu / Nakamura Ryu / Shinkendo / Jissen Budo Takayama Ryu ....
IMHO they are unmistakably gendai, since they are not just reordering or even reforming of classical curriculum like the Kendo Federations seitei iaido but are based on a curriculum created for the needs of the early 20th century military informed by people like Nakamura sensei's classical training.

Aden
Uninformed and opinionated as always!

Shinkendo isn't pre-WW2 or closely post WW2, what i don't understand is why and how you can create a sword art without any battle experience with a sword?
Again no offence but that tameshigiri demo in Paris-Bercy with two shinkens...... I mean if it was a demo of Haedong gumdo it would be cool but done by someone who has such history of training in JSA, but who am i to judge i guess.

[Kenzan]

I believe the general consensus is that Obata's qualifications are legit and his training principles are sound.

People have various opinions about how he chooses to present his art.

If you had ever seen either his classes or his students as I have, you might question that statement.
That's all I'm saying.

[Kenzan]

Yes, it's quite legit. It's in my list, as a result. :)


Just out of curiosity, what denotes "legit" in your book?

[misterkurukuru]

ninja turtles 1 and 2....
he is a samurai, he only plays a ninja on the big screen.
ninja vanish!
practicing in an abandoned bowling alley is cool,
beats the back yard.

seen it, don't care enough to bash it, its just...he may be able to tell you the secret of the ooze.

[Kenzan]

practicing in an abandoned bowling alley is cool,
beats the back yard.


Dude....is it 1983?
LOL :D
I had my first real date there!
Remember Yaohan? (http://greggman.com/restaurants/oc/1999-03-09resto-28.htm)
HeeHee!

[Max C.]

If you had ever seen either his classes or his students as I have, you might question that statement.
That's all I'm saying.

Well I did, and I don't. :wink: Don't compare it with kendo or iaido, or it will be like apples and oranges.

[Kenzan]

Well I did, and I don't. :wink: Don't compare it with kendo or iaido, or it will be like apples and oranges.

Personally, methinks it is more like apples and Shite.
~But yeah, I'll give you that. Kendo it aint.

[pgsmith]

Personal opinions on Shinkendo ...
Obata Toshishiro has a bunch of experience in several different gendai and koryu arts. He had thoughts to incorporate what he had learned into a unified system of swordsmanship. From what I have seen of them, his principals and system were sound, and revolved around very solid technique. It is my understanding that the system has changed as it evolved. He has been tirelessly promoting it in order to expand Shinkendo around the globe. His system and standards have both been simplified over the years in order to make it more palatable to modern tastes, and so expand the school. Glitzy demonstrations such as cutting with two shinken as shown in the linked video clip, have become his way of generating interest. Shinkendo is still a viable school of kenjutsu/battojutsu. The senior instructors that I have met have all been well grounded in basics and quite knowledgeable. Unfortunately, Obata sensei's changes have not sat well with some of his senior students, and so a number of them have left the organization in recent years.
Shenkendo has nothing at all to do with kendo. Shinkendo is still a decent kenjutsu/battojutsu system, but you now have to be more careful about who you are learning from (sort of like Bujinkan).

Shinkendo isn't pre-WW2 or closely post WW2, what i don't understand is why and how you can create a sword art without any battle experience with a sword?
The principals of shu-ha-ri are still utilized in today's sword arts. Schools can be made today in exactly the same way they have been made for hundreds of years. Contrary to what the movies would have you believe, sword duels were not very common during the Edo period (1600 to 1867) as they had to be approved or forgiven by the Shogun or his appointee. Many sword schools were developed during this period by people who had trained in other schools, and decided that things would be better done a bit differently, or they had a dispute with their school and struck out on their own, or for a dozen other reasons. By the late 1600's, everyone who had fought in the battles of the Sengoku Jidai were dead. Therefore, there were a very small number of people in Japan that actually had battle experience with their sword. However, there are quite a number of schools that were created by these very people.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Here in the US we have seen an enourmous increase in the practice of tameshigiri, sparking the flood of chinese made shinken. I recall reading an interview with Obata sensei in Aikijournal years ago where he was openly critical about the inability of many people to do tameshigiri. While there may have been a few other sword arts actively practicing tameshigiri here in the US, it is my belief that Shinkendo is largely behind most of it.

[Kenzan]

I recall reading an interview with Obata sensei in Aikijournal years ago where he was openly critical about the inability of many people to do tameshigiri.

I wonder if he must be speaking about himself and his students?
I'm no Iaidoka or Kenjutsu student, but I know screwy-ness and flim-flam when I see it.
Seriously, in every demonstration I have seen with him and his footsoldiers..(These guys wear as a uniform; a red, wild-man Kamishimo (http://www.e-budostore.com/kamishimo.htm)-like thingee) er I mean students, they either break the stand with the bamboo matt, or miss, repeatedly (even Obata) or they have to chop 2 or three times.
Once, two years ago, one of the students hit the stand so hard it flew into the audience.
-or was that supposed to happen?
and then I was deluged with students shoving Shinkendo flyers in my face.

But hey, to each his own I suppose.

[Max C.]

I'm no Iaidoka or Kenjutsu student

Just what I said. Get to know some of theses styles and you'll see what it's all about. what you write seems to me like the common problem of someone who only did kendo (or any other style) and compares everything from his experience. I think everyone did this at some point, myself included ;) .


Once, two years ago, one of the students hit the stand so hard it flew into the audience.

Never heard about that one. Some kendo teachers have been known to do errors too, tameshigiri included. And you still practice kendo? ;)

[Kenzan]

Just what I said. Get to know some of theses styles and you'll see what it's all about. what you write seems to me like the common problem of someone who only did kendo (or any other style) and compares everything from his experience. I think everyone did this at some point, myself included ;) .



Never heard about that one. Some kendo teachers have been known to do errors too, tameshigiri included. And you still practice kendo? ;)

Sorry,
But everything I've seen of Shinkendo makes me think that Shinkendo is nothing more than commercialized, ninjerly-cult-like-Hollywoodland neo-Samurai-dom-Bullshit, slapped onto a t-shirt and prastic-runchbox, and that Obata is an opportunistic Phil-Elmore-like businessman and Soka-Gakkai-like AssHat.
Just my opinion.
I'm willing to be proven wrong.

[Max C.]

Well you sure haven't seen much. Come to my class anyday and I garanty you will be ;).

[Dr. Hellsing]

Sorry,
But everything I've seen of Shinkendo makes me think that Shinkendo is nothing more than commercialized, ninjerly-cult-like-Hollywoodland neo-Samurai-dom-Bullshit, slapped onto a t-shirt and prastic-runchbox, and that Obata is an opportunistic Phil-Elmore-like businessman and Soka-Gakkai-like AssHat.
Just my opinion.
I'm willing to be proven wrong.
i agree, while i don't know much about kenjutsu, it just looks weird, something screwy about it. maybe its just too commercialized, everything is to flashy. and their bodies are bending all the time, but maybe thats what they do in shinkendo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oENjfg_f2mI

[Kenzan]

My favorite line from that vid is:
"shinkendo - a school where you learn to fight with a real sword."

I'm simply agape with be-puzzlement.
:D

[Max C.]

i agree, while i don't know much about kenjutsu
Well I'm not going to repeat myself on this one. Take a look at other styles and read some books (I personnaly recommend Ellis Amdur) you'll see weirder things (Jigen ryu is a classical example). Kendo is representative of some schools of thought, not all.

As for the quote, invite a journalist to your dojo and see what results you get. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Hellsing]

we were on new york 1 and some show on the west cost, and the new york times...

[Masahiro]

shin kendo stands for "true kendo", although I have researched Mr. Obata's training background, and his reasosn behind the need to establish a "true" kendo tradition. To me, the kendo and iaido most of us practice,(well as orthodox as we are able to stay). .. ...is (in my definition) Shin Ken Do.

[Dr. Hellsing]

shin kendo stands for "true kendo", although I have researched Mr. Obata's training background, and his reasosn behind the need to establish a "true" kendo tradition. To me, the kendo and iaido most of us practice,(well as orthodox as we are able to stay). .. ...is (in my definition) Shin Ken Do.
sorry i don't understand, are you saying that you think its fake or its all the same?

[Hisham]

Personal opinions on Shinkendo ...
Obata Toshishiro has a bunch of experience in several different gendai and koryu arts. He had thoughts to incorporate what he had learned into a unified system of swordsmanship. From what I have seen of them, his principals and system were sound, and revolved around very solid technique. It is my understanding that the system has changed as it evolved. He has been tirelessly promoting it in order to expand Shinkendo around the globe. His system and standards have both been simplified over the years in order to make it more palatable to modern tastes, and so expand the school. Glitzy demonstrations such as cutting with two shinken as shown in the linked video clip, have become his way of generating interest. Shinkendo is still a viable school of kenjutsu/battojutsu. The senior instructors that I have met have all been well grounded in basics and quite knowledgeable. Unfortunately, Obata sensei's changes have not sat well with some of his senior students, and so a number of them have left the organization in recent years.
Shenkendo has nothing at all to do with kendo. Shinkendo is still a decent kenjutsu/battojutsu system, but you now have to be more careful about who you are learning from (sort of like Bujinkan).

The principals of shu-ha-ri are still utilized in today's sword arts. Schools can be made today in exactly the same way they have been made for hundreds of years. Contrary to what the movies would have you believe, sword duels were not very common during the Edo period (1600 to 1867) as they had to be approved or forgiven by the Shogun or his appointee. Many sword schools were developed during this period by people who had trained in other schools, and decided that things would be better done a bit differently, or they had a dispute with their school and struck out on their own, or for a dozen other reasons. By the late 1600's, everyone who had fought in the battles of the Sengoku Jidai were dead. Therefore, there were a very small number of people in Japan that actually had battle experience with their sword. However, there are quite a number of schools that were created by these very people.

Thank you for the explanation, if i'm not mistaken under the light of what you said, even some post Sengoku jidai koryu coud've been or are about theory and imitation more than battle-tested applications, or is it a mix of all the above?
Shu Ha Ri, the concept was discussed on this board, based on what i understood, how can one access the Ri stage in an art where you can't test on a live and resisting target?

[Hisham]

sorry i don't understand, are you saying that you think its fake or its all the same?

i think he meant that they're the new way of the sword litterally.

[Max C.]

Common mistake.I think that's why some kendo folks don't like the idea (altough many practice shinkendo). Shinkendo is Shinken-do as the way of the true sword, not true kendo.

As for creating a new style. Normaly when you reach Menkyo kaiden you are suppose to have mastered the style and know pretty much all there is to know (although it depends on the ryu) and can start your own one. Obata sensei did.

[Dr. Hellsing]

oh, i thought he said we all pratice the real "kendo".

[Kenzan]

Well I'm not going to repeat myself on this one. Take a look at other styles and read some books (I personnaly recommend Ellis Amdur) you'll see weirder things (Jigen ryu is a classical example).


Ok, thank you for that. I'll do some reading then.
Just to be clear, it isn't empirical evidence that I'm basing my feelings on, but rather a more of a "gut" feeling, from attending his Hombu Dojo, watching about 5 classess, reading up on Obata, and viewing 4 demos at Weller Court in downtown L.A. on New Years in front of live audiences.
They have always appeared sloppy, unprepared and make many mistakes.
Does this state that his art is crap?
Nope, but again, my Gut says something is fishy.



Kendo is representative of some schools of thought, not all.


I was taught that there is only one school thought, as far as Kendo is concerned, that has survived, which is Ittoryu.

[Max C.]

First, let me say that it is far much better when you don't make comparaisons with Phil Elmore when you debate. :wink: And also good reading, you won't regret it.

A couple of other schools participated in the homogenisation of kendo. But what I meant to say was that some ryu can look like kendo because they share some common roots or influence, but others are light years away.

Now I can't comment on what you saw, for the obvious reason that I wasn't there. :wink: But let me say that I never saw anything sloppy in what Obata sensei did. Maybe in beginner or intermediate grades students, or when new material was being practiced, but then it's not the same thing and I think we can agree on that. But I agree, humans are prone to make mistakes, this is why there is no 10th dan in kendo, am I right?

And to end the debate about comercialisation, everyone has their way of promoting their class, it's their right. Where I practice, we are maybe a bit more conservative on demos. As for Bercy, it's a martial art show, everyone, from aikikai aikido to goju ryu karate was invited there to please the crowd. Obata sensei received good comments from Kyochi Inoue after the show for his performance.

And as for the wearing of kamishimo, I have seen this done in koryu, namely the Asayama Ichiden ryu soke. For the use of two swords (for what I understood), it's usualy a training method (like a suburito), as it can be done with a wakisashi too.

So the morale of this story, don't jump on conclusions too early.

[Masahiro]

sorry i don't understand, are you saying that you think its fake or its all the same?

not fake, just different stroke for different fokes.

[pgsmith]

Thank you for the explanation, if i'm not mistaken under the light of what you said, even some post Sengoku jidai koryu coud've been or are about theory and imitation more than battle-tested applications, or is it a mix of all the above?
I would have to say that it was probably a mix. The vast majority of the koryu sword arts teachings are for unarmored combat, sword duels if you will. This is true even in those arts codified before the end of the Sengoku Jidai. This is due to the fact that the sword was, according to the research of Professor Karl Friday, rarely used on the battlefield. I have gotten the feeling from my own reading and research that sword duels were not extremely common, although I have no actual numbers to provide backup for that thought.

Shu Ha Ri, the concept was discussed on this board, based on what i understood, how can one access the Ri stage in an art where you can't test on a live and resisting target?
It is not necessary to engage in combat in order to intimately understand the basic underpinnings and ideas of a combat system. I've only been at this for 12 years, but I can watch someone swing a sword and can tell whether their swing would actually cut, whether they are properly balanced for another movement, whether their sword is in a position to follow up, whether they've properly utilized their tanden or just their upper body (which would leave them vulnerable in short order). Give me another twenty or thirty years and I feel I would have enough knowledge to understand what would work and what wouldn't. If everyone had to go out and engage in a sword duel in order to learn, there would be far fewer schools listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. :)

[Hisham]

Thank you for sharing. I guess that the "Ri stage" isn't the same as in hand to hand combat then.

[Fred27]

While we are on Shinkendo and Obata Senseo topic, E-budo devoted an entire sub-forum for a forum-"interview" with Obata Sensei himself answering questions the forum-users posted. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=43 Might be worth looking into.

Dont forget to display threads "from the beginning" as the forum is now locked and no new posts have been posted since the year 2000.

[Jon Palombi]

Again no offence but that tameshigiri demo in Paris-Bercy with two shinkens...... I mean if it was a demo of Haedong gumdo it would be cool but done by someone who has such history of training in JSA, but who am i to judge i guess.

I agree. Some of his demos leave something to be desired. Don't get me wrong, I think he is an impressive man. He has perked my interest for over 20 years. (Since his days espousing batto-jutsu.) I've always been impressed with his cutting prowess. Yet, there seems to be some contradiction in the equation. You can't simaltaneously criticize the traditions and practices of others as not being authentic, while presenting some questionable behavior during publicity stunts. It always bothers me when someone dismisses the tradition of another as invalid. We can learn a great deal from them all. And yes, I realize he can kick my ass.

[Hisham]

I agree. Some of his demos leave something to be desired. Don't get me wrong, I think he is an impressive man. He has perked my interest for over 20 years. (Since his days espousing batto-jutsu.) I've always been impressed with his cutting prowess. Yet, there seems to be some contradiction in the equation. You can't simaltaneously criticize the traditions and practices of others as not being authentic, while presenting some questionable behavior during publicity stunts.

My feeling exactly.


It always bothers me when someone dismisses the tradition of another as invalid. We can learn a great deal from them all. And yes, I realize he can kick my ass.

Point taken.