Is Zen a religion?

[Charlie]

Your thoughts?

[Berserker]

I say yes, but it does seem like more of a lifestyle than a religion...

But hell, what do I know... :smiley:

What do you think Charlie??

[Kenzan]

A Zen response to that question might be something like:

"To be or not to be is not the question-because you cannot have one without the other!"
:D

The word Religion comes from the Latin Religio which, one of the meanings is to "connect with" or "go back to", as in the "source".

The definition of the word is:
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

I am wondering though, is your question geared in reply to people who may have issue to the rituals associated with Kendo?
My answer to that would be:
Any religion, faith, or spiritual belief, which gets hung up on the metaphors of ritual, and places emphasis on the symbols of faith rather than message itself, is following the path of folly and missing the message all together.

So in effect, I object to the question itself on the grounds that the wonder, mystery and awe of the experience of just being alive transcends labels, icons, mythology, and thought patterns.

In other words, strip the names and nuances, and all that is left is a path that all of us walk, and though the color of the path described often differs,
The direction is always the same.

[Obukan_dude]

I've always thought of Zen as a lifestyle. However, I have only seen this type of behavior in the U.S., so I can't say if that's true for other countries.

[Kenzan]

I always thought Zen was the name of a low-carb rice cracker or exclusive organic bottled tea.
:D

[Bokushingu]

I believe zen is a multi-facet thing. I was told one facet of zen is the pursuit of no-mind. If that is the case all creatures use Zen in every day events. For instance we learn how to walk at 9 months to 1 year old--it's a conscious, repetitive effort. but by the time we are 2, it is no longer a conscious effort: we do it without even thinking about it. We have achieved Zen in that Action.
my conclusion is any type of training/study is a pursuit of Zen in that area...therefore, Zen Buddhism must be the repetitve training in the aspects of Buddhism...and if those that study buddhism view it as a religion than i would say zen buddhism is a religion. unfortunately, i don't know anything about Buddhism and only 1 aspect of zen: the no-mind aspect.

[MrBump]

What's a religion?

[enkorat]

"If I point my finger at the moon, is my finger the moon?"

[Kenzan]

I believe Zen is the sublime realization of the true reality; something I think other organisms have no trouble at all seeing naturally.
It appears that our minds, by creating endless thoughts, takes us away, and causes us to deny and reject, the very truths that from the beginning, are right in front of our faces.


~On the other hand, there is Zen to be found in the enjoyment of a really really hearty bacon-burp.:D

[Pugtm]

it is a religion because it does deal with the afterlife, therefore disqualifying it as a philosophy. Of course it all depends on your interpretation of the meaning of "Zen" "Buddism" "religion" and "philosophy".

[Halcyon]

Of course Zen is a religion. It is a well-established sect of Buddhism.

[Kenzan]

it is a religion because it does deal with the afterlife, .

How so?
Though I'm no Zen expert, (Now there's a deliciously ironic statement)
I've never read anything in Zen Buddhism which speaks of an afterlife, unless it was speaking metaphorically.

[Ignatz]

It seems to me that in order to be classified as a "religion" it must worship a "god". I don't see that as part of zen, in fact, it appears to be quite the opposite.

Another thing to consider is that the major religions (and I guess some of the minor ones) demand exclusivity. It appears that there is no reason why one cannot be a practicing Roman Catholic, even a priest, and still practice zen without there being a conflict. That being the case, I see no reason why it would conflict with one of the heathen religions. (Little joke folks, if you are offended, tough titties. You are too serious or very young)

Based upon the above, I say Not a Religion.

[Pugtm]

How so?
Though I'm no Zen expert, (Now there's a deliciously ironic statement)
I've never read anything in Zen Buddhism which speaks of an afterlife, unless it was speaking metaphorically.
no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

[Bokushingu]

no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

my wife is both buddhist and shinto and she was telling me that reincarnation is a shinto punishment for making a grave mistake in your life. and that you will keep coming back until you have corrected that mistake. She believes that this is her third life and that Buddhism will help her fix the grave mistake when she encounters it again in this life. Me i'm Christian so i can't begin to understand, but I fully support her.

[Ignatz]

no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

Here is a little Buddism 101 for you. You might want to have some idea about what you are talking about before you make such statements.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/reincarnation.htm

You will find that many of the "holy men" of the world dumb it down for dumb people and young people. At least the Buddhists admit it.

The biggest problem with being the Messiah is that most people are not interested in the Word, they just want the miracles.

[ZealUK]

I practice Soto-shu Zen Buddhism and regularly attend a temple. Zen Buddhism is a religion. The practice is underpinned by the four noble truths and the eightfold path. We chant the Makka Hannya Haramita Shingyo each time we finish zazen.

However Zen can be practiced by members of any religion. There are weekly talks about Christianity and Zen at the church in the city center, for example. There has to be some kind of moral structure underlining the practice of zen (zazen).

Perhaps the image of the reincarnation in Zen could be compared to dying continuously, every second of the day as we move into each subsequent present moment.

Why the question though? Does Zen really have anything to do with kendo?

[John Seavitt]

While it is the case that Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, are not diest - there's no "god" per se - that's hardly been a requirement for 'religion' historically. Similarly, there's lots of variations on 'afterlife' and 'salvation', but simply not having the Judeo-Christian-Islamic version hardly seems grounds to disqualify some faith or other.

Regardless, I'd certainly view all the Buddhist branches as religion, just like all those Jesus-followers.

John "have a bowl of tea!"

[Kenzan]

no its a buddist sect. Buddhism believes in reincarnation and nirvana...

I think many people have a misconception of those two words.
reincarnation and nirvana are not places (such as an afterlife)
They are states of being/mind.

[Kenzan]

my wife is both buddhist and shinto and she was telling me that reincarnation is a shinto punishment for making a grave mistake in your life. and that you will keep coming back until you have corrected that mistake. She believes that this is her third life and that Buddhism will help her fix the grave mistake when she encounters it again in this life. Me i'm Christian so i can't begin to understand, but I fully support her.

She does know that Shinto has no tenets, no doctrine, and no philosophy, right?

Of course, this doesn't stop my wife from making little straw effigies of people she hates and nailing them to trees in the local park...

[Charlie]

sorry, let me be clear - baby grabbing keyboard - came from bow thread; idea was advanced that zen was not a religion - my view is it is of course a religion but can also be practiced as a secular philosophy. it was suggested i start a new thread.

[Kenzan]

A Zen monk walks up to a Hot-Dog vendor and says:

"Make me one with everything"

The Zen monk walks away, and the vendor shouts after him:

"Here's your change!"

The Monk replies:

"Change comes from within."

:D

[Pugtm]

my wife is both buddhist and shinto and she was telling me that reincarnation is a shinto punishment for making a grave mistake in your life. and that you will keep coming back until you have corrected that mistake. She believes that this is her third life and that Buddhism will help her fix the grave mistake when she encounters it again in this life. Me i'm Christian so i can't begin to understand, but I fully support her.
well im no expert but it was taught to me that Buddha wasn't Shinto. he was in fact Hindu and basically had a split off religion.

[Pugtm]

Here's how it appears to be.
Most religions(the decent ones) allows one to take something from everything. so you can use parts of zen without the whole and adapt it to something else or create a philosophy.
So in effect you can take some of the concepts from zen(states of mind for example) and apply them(to kenjutsu for example even if you are Christian or atheist or whatever. but the whole of zen together is a religion

[Masahiro]

one is able to achieve enlightenment, (dharma) through zen, thus zen can be considered to be a form of religion.

[Bokushingu]

hmm i get confused when she explains it to me. she did say they were two different things and not the same. but when used togehter they make the person better. she eve told me that many japanese in old japan were either buddhist or shinto and there was alot of conflict about it.

I do have a question. Is Zen also a part of shintoism?

[Pugtm]

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it. Oh yeah the emperor is holy but besides that...

[Paikea]

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it. Oh yeah the emperor is holy but besides that...Pugtm, at first, I was kind of pulling for you, what with the whole "why do people hate me because I do kendo" thing. That's fading real fast, as you continue to proffer ignorant nonsense like this. Expand your horizons, understand the world around you and learn something you above most people should be acutely aware of - tolerance.

[Masahiro]

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it.

well, it's a little bit more complicated, and maybe profound then that.

"shin" means "god" (kami in japanese) and "to" is the way. it is a bit arbitrary but, assuming there are "divine" beings in all things. yes, each individual can choose to "pay respect" to nearly anything. I had an aunt that had quite a strange item that she regarded as divine on her shinto shrine. .. ..and we (me, or any of my japanese cousins) never questioned her devotion.

[xvikingx]

isn't Shinto a religion that's not really a religion? i mean basically it says to worship anything you want and thats about it....

Actually he is kind of right. A broad generalization but not too far off target.

[Pugtm]

well, it's a little bit more complicated, and maybe profound then that.

"shin" means "god" (kami in japanese) and "to" is the way. it is a bit arbitrary but, assuming there are "divine" beings in all things. yes, each individual can choose to "pay respect" to nearly anything. I had an aunt that had quite a strange item that she regarded as divine on her shinto shrine. .. ..and we (me, or any of my japanese cousins) never questioned her devotion.
1. yeah well, i was generalizing and realize that it is probably deeper than that.
2. Uh if shin means god then explain please shinken? and also if shin means god then what's kami mean?

[Masahiro]

2. Uh if shin means god then explain please shinken? and also if shin means god then what's kami mean?

well "shin" (神) in shinto is a different pronounciation for the same "神" that can also be pronounced as "Kami". the japanese, chinese, korean language all have this, because the 3 languages borrows heavily from chinese.

the "shin" in "shin-ken"(真剣, しんけん) means "real".

[nysamurai]

I voted "Sorta", which is currently running dead last in the voting. I believe that Zen is, in its way, a religion. It has priests and temples, rites and rituals and its own form of "worship". However, we in the west struggle some with eastern thought generally. As such I also see zen as a philosophy, a way of living life, which for me is somewhat different than a "life style". I have explored it a bit over time, especially as it relates to martial art, and I can say without fear of contridiction that I mostly don't understand it at all!!! Still, it's the journey, isn't it, and not the destination.

[Ignatz]

Pugtm, at first, I was kind of pulling for you, what with the whole "why do people hate me because I do kendo" thing. That's fading real fast, as you continue to proffer ignorant nonsense like this. Expand your horizons, understand the world around you and learn something you above most people should be acutely aware of - tolerance.

I was trying not to hurt his feelings while saving his soul.
In the off chance he has one.:D

[nysamurai]

You are a gem, Ig!!!!

[Gessho]

"If I point my finger at the moon, is my finger the moon?"

"If I stick my foot in your a...?"

:silly:

[Nakura]

Condiering my degree title is "Study of Religions" and I've taken a course in Buddhism and Zen Buddhism being a branch of said creed, I'd have to say yes. If not, I'll tell my uni :-D

[mugen no junin]

kendo is a religion?

[bullet08]

kendo is a religion?

sure seems like some people think it is..

pete

[JCM]

Condiering my degree title is "Study of Religions" and I've taken a course in Buddhism and Zen Buddhism being a branch of said creed, I'd have to say yes. If not, I'll tell my uni :-D


Don't believe everything they tell you at uni, a lot of teaching staff has never had any real direct experience outside academic (yes, I know, some do). Is painfully clear when you graduate and enter the real world

[Fonsz]

sure seems like some people think it is..

pete
Bite your tongue oh Evil one! You have mentioned the unmentionable! Go forth and leave us..............:rolleyes:

[bullet08]

Bite your tongue oh Evil one! You have mentioned the unmentionable! Go forth and leave us..............:rolleyes:

i'm taking all the beer with me!

pete

[Ignatz]

It is 18 degrees F. and snowing where I am right now.

Is god punishing me?

[Fonsz]

i'm taking all the beer with me!

pete
That's allright my religion forbids me to indulge in alcohol.......:ditsy:

[Fonsz]

It is 18 degrees F. and snowing where I am right now.

Is god punishing me?
If you're in Alaska then I suppose God is having a regular day. If you're however in Florida or the Bahama's then it's best to get down on your knees and pray. Hard, so that we can hear you.:cheeky:

[Kenzan]

While all of you guys are spinning your wheels deciding what constitutes a religion and what is not, I'll be living in my field of Nirvana down at the 7-11 squirting more cheese onto my Nachos, whilst realizing that most us are way too much in our egos, suffer from thinking entirely too much, and oh yeah, it's all moot anyway because none of us really exist.

So enjoy your nachos while you can, (And sneak some free chili onto that bad boy when Habib ain't lookin.')
:D

[Gessho]

1. yeah well, i was generalizing and realize that it is probably deeper than that.
2. Uh if shin means god then explain please shinken? and also if shin means god then what's kami mean?

Pugtm "When you have no choice, mobilize the spirit of tolerance and not annoying people..."

[Paikea]

It is 18 degrees F. and snowing where I am right now.

Is god punishing me?We're looking at a high of 76 degrees here in sunny Portland today. So, yes, aparrently you have pissed off the Almighty (again).

[Ignatz]

He is still pissed because I quit Messiah school.

[MikeW]

The way I see it Zen itself is not a religion... t is used by some religious sects but in and of itself is not religion. You can practice Zen and not be religious in other words.

[Obulco]

As I see it, it is a form of Buddhism and thus a religion. What is correct, though, it is that there are practices within Zen that can be practiced by people from other faiths. My mother in law is Japanese and Catholic. She has good friends who practice Zen and occasionally joins them for meditation. She is also genuinely interested in the metaphysical aspects of it. To be honest, despite all that it is said about religion as force of discord among people, there are also many out there that study and practice it partly as a way to understand what common we have with others.

[Pugtm]

Pugtm "When you have no choice, mobilize the spirit of tolerance and not annoying people..."
you know i was actually interested in those answers because i am trying to learn the japanese language. Seriously why is everyone so suspicious nowadays.

[Oroshi]

you know i was actually interested in those answers because i am trying to learn the japanese language. Seriously why is everyone so suspicious nowadays.

Japanese has a huge amount of homophones. There are more than 40 characters - maybe many more - pronounced 'shin,' each with a different meaning.

The 'shin' in shinken is 真, meaning 'real.' The 'shin' meaning 'god' is 神. Neither of these characters is pronounced 'shin' when written their own - only in some compound words. 神 is usually pronounced 'kami' when alone or in certain compounds. 神 also has several other pronunciations.

There are many different words pronounced 'kami' as well.

[Oroshi]

P.S. It all depends on your definition of a 'religion.'

[Nakura]

Don't believe everything they tell you at uni, a lot of teaching staff has never had any real direct experience outside academic (yes, I know, some do). Is painfully clear when you graduate and enter the real world

Most of my lecturers love to regale us with stories that happened to them when they were out in the "real world" so what they tell us is often accompanied by such a tale...

[Nakura]

P.S. It all depends on your definition of a 'religion.'

Oh dear....here we go again...

[Pugtm]

Japanese has a huge amount of homophones. There are more than 40 characters - maybe many more - pronounced 'shin,' each with a different meaning.

The 'shin' in shinken is 真, meaning 'real.' The 'shin' meaning 'god' is 神. Neither of these characters is pronounced 'shin' when written their own - only in some compound words. 神 is usually pronounced 'kami' when alone or in certain compounds. 神 also has several other pronunciations.

There are many different words pronounced 'kami' as well.
Thanks alot.

[Pugtm]

P.S. It all depends on your definition of a 'religion.'
Of course it still means different things to different people and also it plays a different role in everyone's lives. so to define it is somewhat difficult. But we can try.

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 7.religions, Archaic. religious rites. 8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

[Oroshi]

Of course it still means different things to different people and also it plays a different role in everyone's lives. so to define it is somewhat difficult. But we can try.

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 7.religions, Archaic. religious rites. 8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

I'm so sorry everybody.

[Oroshi]

I'll rephrase my answer: it's not necessarily a religion per se, but it is religious.

The 'depends on your definition' statement was based on something my lecturer in Japanese religious studies likes to say.

Anyway, no further opening of worm-cans from me. I get enough discussion of this in class.

[Nakura]

Anyway, no further opening of worm-cans from me. I get enough discussion of this in class.

So do I...thanks Oroshi. But, according to one of the definitions we covered in one of my very first lecture, after having asked and not really answered similar questions that came up earlier in this thread, in response to the title of the thread, I'd have to say yes.

The definition itself was given by Ninian Smart of religion as a world-view (ie "a system of belief which, through symbols and actions, mobilise[s] the feelings and wills of human beings" (Smart, 1983, cited in Smith p.281)) and, considering the recurring theme when dealing with any kind of Buddhism, including Zen, of 'way of life' (ie people often consider it more a way of life than a religion), this way of life must be mobilised by a system of belief.

Phew! I need to go lie down! If you spot a mistake in there, bear in mind I'm writing this at 4:37am...owww...my poor skull (still waiting for the brain in the post)

[Oroshi]

I pretty much agree with that definition (although of course it is pretty broad, and with that wording could potentially include political ideology).

In one definition, Zen describes a way of thinking/exercises that aim to pacify and unify the mind and reach a deep religious understanding. It is a core ideology and religious practice of Zen Buddhism (and other sects of Buddhism) and therefore forms a fundamental part of the religion - hence my definition of it as 'religious' but not necessarily a religion in itself.

[Charlie]

i guess the 64k question is to what extent zen and/or shinto influences/is involved in kendo - which brings us right back to the bow thread. i think most agree kendo is secular but has been influenced by these religious/cultural/philosophical forces.

[kurisu]

The other question is, can our kendo improve if we practice Zen Buddhism? There are a few well known swordsmen of the past who believe the 2 go hand in hand. Yamaoka Tesshu and Yagyu Munenori are 2 shining examples of this. Takuan Soho’s influence on this is also seen in his writings to Yagyu Munenori.

[ZealUK]

I guess the thing with Zen is that it isn't something you can 'get' by reading about it. Modern Christianity doesn't require people to go to church on a regular basis as far as I am aware, simply having a belief and in some cases attending various religious ceremonies seems to be enough to guaruntee salvation in some people's eyes.

The difference with Zen is that the transmission of wisdom is done 一心伝心 (from one mind to another), acquired through the guidance of your teacher, and achieved through practice. Other sects of buddhism believe that enlightenment is impossible in the current lifetime, and as an example simply give thanks to Amida Butsu for his assistance in saving humanity.

The relationship between Shinto and Buddhism is really complicated. Bodhisattvas and shinto deities have become mixed together, sometimes its hard to tell where each came from.

Kendo's reigi is entirely neo-Confucian in origin in my opinion. In fact 神道 Shinto　仏教 Buddhism (all sects)　儒教　Confucianism are sometimes referred to as 三才 sansai or 'three powers' (this also refers to 天 heaven　地 earth　人 man), and seem to have a joint influence over any kind of art from Tokugawa Japan.

[milova]

Hey Charlie sensei!

Zen- definately a religion. It's a part of Buddhism, from the Dyana (meditation) school in India it because Ch'an in China- it's got patriarchs (bodhidharma, mahakashyapa, hui neng, etc), it's got doctrines, scriptures, sects inside of itself (Renzai/lingi, soto/caodon)- it has established roles for lay people and a monastic community- it's as much of a religion as any religion in Asia.

The fact that Zen has been introduced to the west as more of an idea and not a religion was because of _who_ and _how_ it was introduced- I forget the guy's name but one of the prominent people to bring it to the west made himself out to be some sort of expert in the arena and he wasn't even a monk not to mention anyone of great authority in the Buddhist community. This combined witht he fact that it was introduced to the west during a period when the west had a habit of exoticising Asia/ Asian culture (not that this has let up significantly even till today) gave us this impression that Zen is some vague philosophy- it's definately a religion, people believe in it, it has an established role as funeral providing religious tradition in Japan, it would be more natural to question the role of the traditional American priest at funerals or executions as part of a religion or not.

Now, where this comes into play with Kendo is the whole Renzai sect of Zen's having extremely close ties to the samurai class in Japan during the Tokugawa period and even earlier- however, as if to witness to the fact that it is a religion, if one reads Tsunetomo's Hagakure he says that you can't do both at the same time- better to be a faithful and loyal retainer to your master when you are young and when you are older enter the monastary with full commitment- just as Tsunetomo himself did.

long story short- its sooo a religion.

[Charlie]

Great post, milova! I think you're thinking of D.T. Suzuki, who helped promote this western notion of Zen before, during and after WW II (and someone whose writing I quite admire even though there are these problems).

[michaelm]

Great post, milova! I think you're thinking of D.T. Suzuki, who helped promote this western notion of Zen before, during and after WW II (and someone whose writing I quite admire even though there are these problems).
[Aside] My Jodo Shinshu (Pure Land Sect Buddhism) friends always like to point out that even D.T. Suzuki converted to Jodo Shinshu before his death.

[Dharmabum]

www.dictionary.com - religion
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
www.dictionary.com - philosophy
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.

As such I would say that Zen Buddhism is both a religion and a philosophy. Some have said that it can not count as a religion because they see it more as a way of life, I don't see the difference.
And, I think, Hagakure is a horrible example of the samurai ideal: Tsunetomo was a fool and his book was a pitiful attempt to give justification to his life. If you want a book that delves more accurately, and more intelligently, into the samurai way of thinking read Budoshoshinshu.
But the whole question seems somewhat irrelevant.
Question: What is Zen?
Answer: Zen is everything, and Zen is nothing.

[Kendoka_Han]

Zen is a philosophy.

Christianity in its purity is a relationship.

[Kendoka_Han]

As such I would say that Zen Buddhism is both a religion and a philosophy. Some have said that it can not count as a religion because they see it more as a way of life, I don't see the difference.
And, I think, Hagakure is a horrible example of the samurai ideal: Tsunetomo was a fool and his book was a pitiful attempt to give justification to his life. If you want a book that delves more accurately, and more intelligently, into the samurai way of thinking read Budoshoshinshu.
But the whole question seems somewhat irrelevant.
Question: What is Zen?
Answer: Zen is everything, and Zen is nothing.

But as of my opinion, Zen is just a philosophy created by an inferior mind, in comparison to the Lord God and his word.

[ZealUK]

Zen is a philosophy.

Christianity in its purity is a relationship.

WELL THANKS FOR SORTING THAT OUT! :rolleyes:

[Kendoka_Han]

WELL THANKS FOR SORTING THAT OUT! :rolleyes:

No worries :rolleyes:

[ben]

Ker-PLONK!

b

[ben]

The other question is, can our kendo improve if we practice Zen Buddhism? There are a few well known swordsmen of the past who believe the 2 go hand in hand. Yamaoka Tesshu and Yagyu Munenori are 2 shining examples of this. Takuan Soho’s influence on this is also seen in his writings to Yagyu Munenori.

Otake sensei of TSKSR spoke about how he thought Zen would have taken up too much time for the average bushi. He is of the opinion that Shingon Mikkyo was more widely used and helpful. Whether Zen or another school of Buddhism, my belief is that bushi practiced these to help themselves understand/reconcile/prepare themselves for death, which was part-and-parcel of their trade. We don't have the deal with death as a direct consequence of our kendo training or our livelihoods (unless you are a soldier perhaps), but we do obviously have to face death at some stage. For me this is how Zen is useful for my life, not just for kendo.

The further I go, the more difficult it is to separate kendo and Zen from my ordinary life anyway, so perhaps it's all moot.

Zen is quite properly a religion when practiced as the Japanese practice it. But because Zen and Buddhism and general are not proscriptive religions, no-one's going to come down on you for taking from it what you need and leaving the rest. Zen is not a take-it-or-leave-it, my-way-or-the-highway kind of proposition like the Abrahamic religions. Hence many people treat Zen as just a philosophy, or a New Age meditation discipline. Or they use the aura of the name to sell cosmetics, software, whatever.

b

[Ignatz]

. . .Zen is not a take-it-or-leave-it, my-way-or-the-highway kind of proposition like the Abrahamic religions. . . .b

Moses was up on the mountain for several days negotiating with the burning bush while the Isrealites nervously waited.

Finally he cme down and said "I've got good news and bad news. The good news is I got him down to ten. The bad news is adultry is still in.'

[Alison2805]

But as of my opinion, Zen is just a philosophy created by an inferior mind, in comparison to the Lord God and his word.

But as of my opinion, there is nothing quite as revolting as a fanatic.

[Kendoka_Han]

But as of my opinion, there is nothing quite as revolting as a fanatic.

Indeed it is your opinion.

If your relating the word of the Lord as "mere fiction, by fanatics", well then i hope you reconsider.

[ZealUK]

Otake sensei of TSKSR spoke about how he thought Zen would have taken up too much time for the average bushi. He is of the opinion that Shingon Mikkyo was more widely used and helpful. Whether Zen or another school of Buddhism, my belief is that bushi practiced these to help themselves understand/reconcile/prepare themselves for death, which was part-and-parcel of their trade.

One of my sempai is a buddhist monk, I asked him about this and he said pretty much the same thing. We have to remember than in Japan one doesn't necessarily have to be exclusively attached to a single religion, or even a sect of a particular religion. I imagine there was a great deal of mixing and matching going on where bushi would simply find the method that worked for them best. Perhaps try out a bit of zen, try some shingon practices and see.

[Alison2805]

Zen- definately a religion. It's a part of Buddhism, from the Dyana (meditation) school in India it because Ch'an in China- it's got patriarchs (bodhidharma, mahakashyapa, hui neng, etc), it's got doctrines, scriptures, sects inside of itself (Renzai/lingi, soto/caodon)- it has established roles for lay people and a monastic community- it's as much of a religion as any religion in Asia.

The fact that Zen has been introduced to the west as more of an idea and not a religion was because of _who_ and _how_ it was introduced- I forget the guy's name but one of the prominent people to bring it to the west made himself out to be some sort of expert in the arena and he wasn't even a monk not to mention anyone of great authority in the Buddhist community. This combined witht he fact that it was introduced to the west during a period when the west had a habit of exoticising Asia/ Asian culture (not that this has let up significantly even till today) gave us this impression that Zen is some vague philosophy- it's definately a religion, people believe in it, it has an established role as funeral providing religious tradition in Japan, it would be more natural to question the role of the traditional American priest at funerals or executions as part of a religion or not.

Now, where this comes into play with Kendo is the whole Renzai sect of Zen's having extremely close ties to the samurai class in Japan during the Tokugawa period and even earlier- however, as if to witness to the fact that it is a religion, if one reads Tsunetomo's Hagakure he says that you can't do both at the same time- better to be a faithful and loyal retainer to your master when you are young and when you are older enter the monastary with full commitment- just as Tsunetomo himself did.

long story short- its sooo a religion.

Ive learned someting today! Thanks Milova. :D

[webjunkie401]

Indeed it is your opinion.

If your relating the word of the Lord as "mere fiction, by fanatics", well then i hope you reconsider.

She wasn't calling the word of God fiction, she was calling you a fanatic because you were insulting with your 'inferior minds' post. Obviously it isn't an insult if you have faith in the christian God, but if you don't (or even if you do) you came off really insulting.

[Kendoka_Han]

She wasn't calling the word of God fiction, she was calling you a fanatic because you were insulting with your 'inferior minds' post. Obviously it isn't an insult if you have faith in the christian God, but if you don't (or even if you do) you came off really insulting.

I hate to say this but its fact, we are minds that have yet to really live life to the full. Your sounding a bit arrogant, because what i was saying wasnt insulting.

Zen is just a philosophy created by a sinful human being. Albeit if its good enough for you, then fine, but the word of the Lord God is alot more wise in living life than just listening to a fellow person.

Who knows, that person creating Zen could either be inspired by himself, Satan or the Lord God.

But what i do know is that he didnt have the word or spirit of the Lord through him, so i guess its the other 2.

[Alison2805]

Webjumkie was entirely correct. I find YOU to be an offensive little asshat, not your religion.

[webjunkie401]

I hate to say this but its fact, we are minds that have yet to really live life to the full. Your sounding a bit arrogant, because what i was saying wasnt insulting.

Zen is just a philosophy created by a sinful human being. Albeit if its good enough for you, then fine, but the word of the Lord God is alot more wise in living life than just listening to a fellow person.

Who knows, that person creating Zen could either be inspired by himself, Satan or the Lord God.

But what i do know is that he didnt have the word or spirit of the Lord through him, so i guess its the other 2.

You are missing my point. You don't think you were insulting for the reasons you just stated. But in a thread about zen being a religion or not, you went further and brought up christianity being a relationship. If this were a forum of just christians, or if this was the flames section I wouldn't care, but I find it offensive when people immediately jump to putting down other's beliefs philosophies. Zen may not be your cup of tea (it's not mine either) but that doesn't mean you need to say it was created by someone with an inferior mind.

As for saying I'm being arrogant, seems you're being quite holier than thou with your online religious attitudes. No one ever saved a soul by insulting their faith (no matter what Jack Chick says).

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I´m christian too, and I find your post to be deeply insulting, you can feel or think of human intelect as an "inferior" thing, but the fact of coming to this place where people has different beliefs calling other´s visions as inferiors is deeply insulting, even for you, assuming that you came to believe, what you defend now, due to your intelect not because LORD GOD divinely told you to believe.

As a side note, I´d recommend you Kendoka_Han to find a church and ask for theology, it may really help you to undestand and see life with more reason and less "wild passion" about things in general. It may be dissapointing for you to undestand that God is not a Super-Life-Being with a Super-Overhuman-Intellect, at least in christian religion.

As far as the Zen question, It is a sect of buddhism so it´s a religion, it may be a philosophy and a psicologic system as well, but that doesn´t mean it isn´t a religion.

[Kendoka_Han]

I am my own boss where religion is concerned. I am in no way insinuating an insult, you can claim my christian views as stupid or incorrect, but i would not be insulted if you did.

So whats the reason of you or anyone being insulted by my claim of Zen being a philosophy and it has been created over time by an inferior mind?

We are ALL inferior minds when in comparison to God. Even I will say I am an inferior mind.

[Kendoka_Han]

;252113']
As a side note, I´d recommend you Kendoka_Han to find a church and ask for theology, it may really help you to undestand and see life with more reason and less "wild passion" about things in general. It may be dissapointing for you to undestand that God is not a Super-Life-Being with a Super-Overhuman-Intellect, at least in christian religion.

If your a christian, what is your understanding of God and Jesus Christ?

What type of christian are you anyways?

[webjunkie401]

I am my own boss where religion is concerned. I am in no way insinuating an insult, you can claim my christian views as stupid or incorrect, but i would not be insulted if you did.

So whats the reason of you or anyone being insulted by my claim of Zen being a philosophy and it has been created over time by an inferior mind?

We are ALL inferior minds when in comparison to God. Even I will say I am an inferior mind.

Okay, I just have to ask. If you are an inferior mind when compared to God, how are you your own boss where religion is concerned... wouldn't God be your boss?

I'm not insulted by you saying zen is a philosophy, it's when you decide to state it not as your own opinion or belief, but as fact. For a moment try to stand in someone else's shoes and reread your comments. Or switch the comments around, that christianity was just a bunch of drivel written up by an inferior mind.

So as to sort of try to make up for thread drift, I'm going to vote sorta. Partially because I can't make up my mind, but also because it seems (at least to me) that whether or not you consider it a religion depends on how you see zen impacting your life.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Christianism was not created by God either, it was created also by "inferior minds".

Apostolic-Roman (don´t know how to say it in english)

If you want to discuss personal beliefs let´s do it through PM. however, have you ever heard of the trinity or something like it?

..answer me through PM please. Sorry for misleading the thread.

[Kendoka_Han]

Okay, I just have to ask. If you are an inferior mind when compared to God, how are you your own boss where religion is concerned... wouldn't God be your boss?

I am my own boss in serving a God i believe in. My belief in a God is not going to be changed by others views, as i know God and Christ are true, due to prophecy and everyday life.


I'm not insulted by you saying zen is a philosophy, it's when you decide to state it not as your own opinion or belief, but as fact.

I did not state Zen to be a philosophical fact, i meant that its fact that we are sinful inferior minds in comparison to the Lord. Zen in my opinion is a philosophy, not a factual philosophy as you dont want to claim.


For a moment try to stand in someone else's shoes and reread your comments. Or switch the comments around, that christianity was just a bunch of drivel written up by an inferior mind.

I would not be offended, as thats someones opinion. I might argue the point in why Christianity is true, and i will go to a point that will be enough for most people to understand, then i will stop.

[Kendoka_Han]

;252119']Christianism was not created by God either, it was created also by "inferior minds".

No, christianity was created through Jesus Christ, and through Gods spirit within the saints and prophets of the bible, that then came about the bible, and the belief system of christianity.

It wasnt just some random junkie suddenly having a ravaging idea and then writing the bible, and founding a religion....


Apostolic-Roman (don´t know how to say it in english)

If you want to discuss personal beliefs let´s do it through PM. however, have you ever heard of the trinity or something like it?

..answer me through PM please. Sorry for misleading the thread.

Fine by me :)

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Actually it comes to be, independent of the inspirational part, a way to understand and explain a plain belief, that´s what afterwads could be called as christianism and the different ways that it has. so it was made by and inferior mind anyway, or it was built and shaped on inferior ways since what we know nowadays comes from the church and this is a human thing anyway.

[Kenzan]

If you want to find "God," I am of the belief that you first need to get past the metaphors, past the imagery which exists in ALL faiths. In this sense, all faiths are true for their times. That is the purpose of myth and of faith,-to provide a context for concepts and thoughts which are beyond human expression.

I have found that when one attempts to walk the path, the images and expectations of divinity and all metaphors that point the way to it, is the is the last barrier that needs to be overcome.

In other words, instead of reading religious text in the context of Stereo instructions, think about the metaphors which they contain, what they mean, and what they are trying to convey, then move past them.
It is when we take these texts literally that is the heart of the human spiritual problems. As long as you continue to live in the world of the metaphor, you are merely looking at the reflection of the moon in the water, and will never gaze upon the moon itself.

On judgment;
-Where you look outward to find answers, the path inevitably always leads back to yourself.

[webjunkie401]

I did not state Zen to be a philosophical fact, i meant that its fact that we are sinful inferior minds in comparison to the Lord. Zen in my opinion is a philosophy, not a factual philosophy as you dont want to claim.

I didn't mean that you stated it as a philosophical fact. I've been trying to talk about your language. You gave your opinion, fine and dandy, but you espoused it in an insulting way. Think about where you are (an internet forum populated by people from many different backgrounds and faiths) and why saying that a faith or philosophy they may follow was created by a mind inferior to a God they may not believe in could be insulting. This isn't the flames section.


I would not be offended, as thats someones opinion. I might argue the point in why Christianity is true, and i will go to a point that will be enough for most people to understand, then i will stop.Great for you, you have tougher skin than some of us. The fact still remains that you were being insulting whether you meant to or not.

To a point most people will understand?

Last thing I'll say, I never claimed zen was a factual philosophy or really anything else. No I'm going to bed, because it's past 1 AM.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

If you want to find "God," I am of the belief that you first need to get past the metaphors, past the imagery which exists in ALL faiths. In this sense, all faiths are true for their times. That is the purpose of myth and of faith,-to provide a context for concepts and thoughts which are beyond human expression.

I have found that when one attempts to walk the path, the images and expectations of divinity and all metaphors that point the way to it, is the is the last barrier that needs to be overcome.

In other words, instead of reading religious text in the context of Stereo instructions, think about the metaphors which they contain, what they mean, and what they are trying to convey, then move past them.
It is when we take these texts literally that is the heart of the human spiritual problems. As long as you continue to live in the world of the metaphor, you are merely looking at the reflection of the moon in the water, and will never gaze upon the moon itself.

On judgment;
-Where you look outward to find answers, the path inevitably always leads back to yourself.


I agree, that´s why I emphasize my point in theology, it gives a clearer view of the reason and essence of things, understanding. then you leave behind those out of context comments like "the only way is Lord jesus´s way". I´m done about this too.

[yoda-waza]

Now that everyone has gone to sleep I ponder:
I don't practice Zen but it seems to inspire introspection.
I don't practice Christianity but it seems to incite argument.
My inferior mind, awed by the mystery of life's purpose, certainly feels more at peace in introspection but superior minds are not satified with that I guess. I'm still trying to figure out religion....

[Kendoka_Han]

;252122']Actually it comes to be, independent of the inspirational part, a way to understand and explain a plain belief, that´s what afterwads could be called as christianism and the different ways that it has. so it was made by and inferior mind anyway, or it was built and shaped on inferior ways since what we know nowadays comes from the church and this is a human thing anyway.

Exactly, thats why the catholic ways are the most ridiculous ways ever.

Lutheran Christianity is the way to go, due to the understanding and devotion to the lords word properly, and is not based by human laws.

[Kendoka_Han]

To a point most people will understand?

Yes because some people, will literally not agree with the bible at all. And i dont hate them for it, thats their decision.

[ben]

I've got no idea what he just said as he's on my ignore list. Please, no-one quote him as then I will have to read his posts.

The silence is blissful. I highly recommend it.

b

[lucy]

I've got no idea what he just said as he's on my ignore list. Please, no-one quote him as then I will have to read his posts.

The silence is blissful. I highly recommend it.

b

Yep, same here. Very relaxing. :)

[kartoffelngeist]

I think it's quite sad that the thread has got to this level, I sense it being closed if it carries on like this...

I had written a huge long post about philosophy of religion, but I don't think it would help.
I do enjoy a good theological argument though, so feel free to pm.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I´ve just opened the Ignore List. Brilliant Idea.

[Paikea]

...out of bounds religious intolerance...
Uttered by a confessed pathological liar. Bye bye, loser.

[ahmed61086]

........................

[Kenzan]

Most people, even christians, would say Paul was the man who created the belief system of christianity, through what Paul thought was taught by Jesus.

Some people would even say that Christianity and other Middle-Eastern faiths have their origins in Greek, Babylonian, and Sumerian myths.
I have to ask myself the question of, as noble as traditions as they can be, does it really matter from where or from whom these writings came from?

I also ask myself, Which is of real importance, the teacher and his books, or the lessons being taught? Then of this, I ask, which is also more important: The lessons which are taught, or the path itself for which the lessons are trying to aid the user in navigating?

lastly, at what point do we take all that we have learned on the path of the journey, and cease to be led by others who have pointed the way for us, and then begin leading ourselves?

[Obukan_dude]

Some people would even say that Christianity and other Middle-Eastern faiths have their origins in Greek, Babylonian, and Sumerian myths.
I have to ask myself the question of, as noble as traditions as they can be, does it really matter from where or from whom these writings came from?

I also ask myself, Which is of real importance, the teacher and his books, or the lessons being taught? Then of this, I ask, which is also more important: The lessons which are taught, or the path itself for which the lessons are trying to aid the user in navigating?

lastly, at what point do we take all that we have learned on the path of the journey, and cease to be led by others who have pointed the way for us, and then begin leading ourselves?

Well said, er, typed. ;)
And I would like to throw out a plea that this thread be locked, please.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Wish granted.