Types of old kendo

[bushikan]

I have questions refering to types of old kendo and charateristics of them. I am an exponent of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu and thus and taught Shinken Shobu. I have heard of other stlyes of kendo from other koryu namely: Hokushin Itto Ryu, Kyoshin Meichi Ryu, Itto Seiden Muto Ryu (though the names of them currently escape me). I was wondering if anyone had any input on this, as I am currious to the differences between Shinken Shobu and other styles.

My Thanks

[John Seavitt]

I am an exponent of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu and thus and taught Shinken Shobu.

If you say so. Sounds very exciting. There must be a lot of injuries.

I have questions refering to types of old kendo and charateristics of them.

Since we're on a kendo (as in, ZNKR) website, let me ask for some clarification: are you asking about differences between various schools of koryu swordwork, or are you asking about differences between kendo (as in ZNKR) and various schools of koryu swordwork.

John

[ZealUK]

I believe he is asking about the koryu schools which used bogu and shinai for keiko. Shindo Munen Ryu call this 'shinken shobu kendo' apparently.

I think Jikishinkage Ryu started using bogu originally.

Jeff, you need to clarify what you write a bit more, its not very clear sometimes.

[rikoseishin]

Well finally joined. Man I feel like a noob. Eh well shikata ga nai.

Anyway I also think the questions is referring to those koryu den which have keiko that utilize bogu and shinai. The author of the post seems to wish to compare his style of ko kendo to other styles, mainly that of technique and training. Please correct me if I am wrong. And Alex I believe you are right in saying that Jikishinkage Ryu was the first to use bogu.

And yes Jeff you do need to work on your clarity. A good example would be the vid discussion on SA. You made good points they just require to much effort to pick out.

[bushikan]

My apologies, what I meant to ask was the differences between other some of the different styles of older kendo and the characteristics which make them unique.
I as mentioned before am an exponent of Shinken Shobu, an (side) art of Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu. To begin strikes are not done in the gendai kendo manner (aka flicking motion) rather the kihon from Shindo Munen Ryu is used thus the shinai is raised and flattened against the back prior to making a strike (awarkward as this may seem it creates a clear point of contact between the partners and allows a much stronger swing) and once the pratitioner understands the body mechanics of this the shinai is swung at blinding speed leaving effectivly no opening (if you can prefrom a cut that was at such speeds imagine the effect it would have on a normal kendo strike preformed even faster).
The main practice consist of partner drills between the head instructor (wearing bogu) and a student (not often wearing bogu). The practice begins with suburi and other kihon, after which the fun begins. Students line up and wait thier turn to face sensei. You bow 「お願いします」と言う (say onegashimasu) and then sensei calls out a command (note these commands are predetermined actions the student should take) and the student should preform arrordingly, otherwise sensei's shinai is going to make contact with some part of your skin. There are three result of preforming correctly: 1) he will ask you to repeat the command 2) make you "kiss a wall" as I like to say by pushing you after your final strike, at which time you either recover in time or your face makes contact with the wall 3) he strikes at you in which case alertness is key 4) calls out another command. This continues until sensei is satisfied and calls opon another student. This process continues for some time. Each time the difficulty of the situation increases sensei gives you other openings or strikes at you. The studnet must then either bypass or parry the strike into an imediate counter attack. Shinken Shobu allows the student to respond accordingly with lessons and techniqes used in Shindo Munen Ryu or from the kumitachi or heiho fro Shinmuto Ryu-Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu.
In all the practice creates a flowing engagement sometimes predicted or sporatic in nature (giving the student a clear understanding of the random element of sword combat thus the word "Shinken" 真剣 is used). Sparing is done scarsely as an engagement in Shinken Shobu end only when someone gives up (thus a match can last from minuets, to hours, to passing out from exaustion, or the occasional injury). Also tripping, tsuka and tsuba hitting, and checking are allowed (the most extreme I have heard is elbows and headbutts). Though I have yet to do sparing of any kind, which I am not dissappointed about, as when I am ready I'm sure sensei will arange it.
So I was wondering if someone could give detailed discription (similar to the one I gave) as to old styles of kendo like Taryu Jiai or Geken. So I may compare and contrast some of the differences between them and Shinken Shobu.

Sorry long explanation, but I hope this provides a good example into Shinken Shobu, and example of charateristics from one cas list or compara/contrast to.

my thanks

Ps. Alex you were right Jikishinkage Ryu was one of the first styles to pioneer the use of bogu.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You realize that "shinken shobu" means a match with real swords, do you not? Nobody does that anymore. Whatever you are doing is not shinken shobu.

[Kapplow]

I've done shinken shobu once...

It was against a Whataburger triple stack with cheese combo upsized with a root beer. Needless to say I'm still here...

[bushikan]

You realize that "shinken shobu" means a match with real swords, do you not? Nobody does that anymore. Whatever you are doing is not shinken shobu.
I know what shinken shobu means, but its not what the name implies. Shinken Shobu was the name of the kendo style learned/taught by Negishi Shingoro, Nakayama Hakudo, and Zendo. It currently survives and is taught by the current headmaster of the Yushinkan Dojo (10th soke of Shindo Munen Ryu) Ogawa Takeshi Sensei. I believe prior to me joining one of the members of this forum visited the Yushinkan and saw a demonstration of sorts (also conversing with Ogawa Sensei).

This post was made a few months prior to me joining the Yushinkan
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8806

Hope this helps

[John Seavitt]

I know what shinken shobu means ...

Shrug ... it is clear, as Neil pointed out, historically that "shinken shobu" was often used to specificly refer to engagements with live blades; not necessarily lethal duels but certainly with a siginificant risk of injury. I've certainly seen the more recent Shindo Munen-ryu practitioners refer to the training you described as "shinken shobu", at least on the web, but I'd be curious if that's a formal nomenclature actually dating back to before, say, world war two or so. I don't know, just wondering ... but I've heard it a lot more from enthusiastic teenagers wandering around on the internet than actual senior instructors in koryu arts.

Regardless, there are other koryu that do more-or-less what you describe, wear protective dogu that permits (at least) junior practitioners to practice either particular waza or entire kata on senior practitioners in a manner where they're hitting the relevant target area with meaningfull speed and force. However, it's not anything I'd call "kendo" per se, since a couple of schools just wear kote, at least one wears men and kote, and some wear bogu per an earlier post in this thread. Still, of the koryu with protective dogu, the ones I can think of (obviously limited) appear to use it to practice waza more than a more "kendo"-esque "free" sparring. Obviously the existance of this sort of work in (many) koryu provids a basis for modern kendo. Still, I don't think of it a being much different than tameshigiri or iai - a portion of a larger curriculum of swordwork.

All the usual disclaimers apply, remarks based on my exposure (and level of exposure).

John

[Kenzan]

I as mentioned before am an exponent of Shinken Shobu

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
:D

[Obukan_dude]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kenzan again.

Inconceivable!!!

[ZealUK]

You realize that "shinken shobu" means a match with real swords, do you not? Nobody does that anymore. Whatever you are doing is not shinken shobu.

Shinken shobu also means 'to do something seriously' in modern Japanese.

[bushikan]

I've certainly seen the more recent Shindo Munen-ryu practitioners refer to the training you described as "shinken shobu", at least on the web
Other practitioners of Shindo Munen Ryu who speak english? Currently (and unfortunatly) I am the only foriener in Shindo Munen Ryu, and there are only two members who speak decent english in the orginization (and none of them post). Where did you get this info from?

puzzeled

[Winter67uk]

Shinken shobu also means 'to do something seriously' in modern Japanese.

Lovely little moment for some discourse on the development of idiomatic language. A little bit of linguistic theory, some examples from related activities in other cultures...

...but this is a kendo forum.

Bushikan may be "doing somthing serious" but the expression "shinken shobu" used in this context has a clear and precise meaning.

[ZealUK]

Lovely little moment for some discourse on the development of idiomatic language. A little bit of linguistic theory, some examples from related activities in other cultures...

...but this is a kendo forum.

Bushikan may be "doing somthing serious" but the expression "shinken shobu" used in this context has a clear and precise meaning.

The expression in the way that he used it related to the practice of Shindo Munen Ryu. If they call it 'shinken shobu' then that's what they call it. Whether that's the actual name assigned to the practice or just something said in their dojo I don't know.

He says he's practicing Shindo Munen Ryu with Ogawa sensei, so perhaps he is using the correct terminology.

[Kendoka_Han]

LOL

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067812/

[Kenzan]

LOL

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067812/


Why do you insist on posting your "training aids?"

Put down the Manga, get your finger out of your nose and your hand off your throttle, and GET THEE TO A DOJO,
You insufferable poster-boy for Colon cleansing!
:dead:

[Hisham]

He just likes the attention, even if he gets abused in the process. Remember that Eurythmics song:"Some of them want to be abused."

[bushikan]

He just likes the attention, even if he gets abused in the process. Remember that Eurythmics song:"Some of them want to be abused."

Im not doing this for the attention I was just currious to other old styles of kendo that go along with other arts. I know Hokushin Itto Ryu has thier own and Kyoshin Meichi Ryu as well, i was currious as to if anyone had any infomation on them, being this is a kendo forum, but I seem to be proven wrong. I posted that discription not to brag but to give information first before I recived it, and to little effect it seems.

Sorry for the headache

[rikoseishin]

If I may I would like to restart thsi discussion because I to am also curious as to the different approaches to koryu kendo. However, I would like to go back to this and leave the current issue of a particular ryu's terminology which I feel is irrelevant to the practice of such. Hopefully there are a few members who do some form of koryu kendo that might shed some light on this. I will ask, merely to get the thread going, what are certain target areas in different styles? I assume they would be as that of a blade, and not just the four form modern kendo.

[rikoseishin]

Hey Jeff, nice timing I was trying to get it going again. But of course oyu have to jump in right ahead of me.......lol.

[bushikan]

Hey Jeff, nice timing I was trying to get it going again. But of course oyu have to jump in right ahead of me.......lol.

Sen Sen no Sen

[Alison2805]

Im not doing this for the attention I was just currious to other old styles of kendo that go along with other arts. I know Hokushin Itto Ryu has thier own and Kyoshin Meichi Ryu as well, i was currious as to if anyone had any infomation on them, being this is a kendo forum, but I seem to be proven wrong. I posted that discription not to brag but to give information first before I recived it, and to little effect it seems.

Sorry for the headache

He wasnt refering to you :)

[Hisham]

Thank you Alison for clarifying to whom the comment was for. I thought it was clear but i guess somehow it wasn't.

[TWR]

thats enough shinken shobu for me
http://www.kendowawa.fora.pl/viewtopic.php?t=92

[KenShi_JoB]

In Itto Shoden Muto Ryu, they practice using very short shinai, no more than 3 shaku 2 sun. They do not use katate-waza (one handed technique) nor do-waza (strike to the body), but they can trust not only at neck but also chest and stomach. They can use leg sweeping, and other means of violent kumiuchi techniques.

They practice seigan tachigiri, which is to engage in 200 matches per day(have to win with men strike) continuously for many days.

However, nowaday they do not practice as severe as in Yamaoka Tesshu time. As I had seen, they practice mainly kata and engage in shinaigeiko in the same manner as modern-kendo, but use short shinai and emphasize on big sutemi strike. Most of the practitioner are also modern kendoka. one of their diseased soke was the president of ZNKR.

I heard that they do the tachigiri once a year, 200 win-by-men matches, but not violence like the past anymore. No more (or rarely) elbowing, tripping like the past, they even teach children now.

Nakanishi-ha itto ryu, kuruma ryu and many other ryu that used to practice uchikomigeiko (shinai kendo), most of them that I've seen are just retain their kata or kumitachi and practice ZNKR kendo (not all practitioner do both though). Hokushin Itto ryu at Genbukan in Tokyo, they practice shinaigeiko in the same manner as modern kendo now, but not join ZNKR.

However, I am not practitioner of any of these ryu, so if above information may be not totally accurate. I try to be as accurate as possible. My opinion is that majority of these ryu are just retain their kata and practice modern kendo.

[Mike Molloy]

I would be very interested to hear more about Muto Ryu.
Has anybody trained under Izaki Takehiro-sensei in Tokyo?

[Kenshi]

However, I am not practitioner of any of these ryu, so if above information may be not totally accurate. I try to be as accurate as possible. My opinion is that majority of these ryu are just retain their kata and practice modern kendo.

If you could clarify your sources that would help. The last thing we want to do is spread 2nd hand information.

In the itto-ryu that I am familiar with there is no special type of kendo that goes along with it.

[KenShi_JoB]

If you could clarify your sources that would help. The last thing we want to do is spread 2nd hand information.

In the itto-ryu that I am familiar with there is no special type of kendo that goes along with it.


I watched them practice and discussed with them. Luckily, many of them have website, only in Japanese though.

Itto Shoden Muto Ryu
-About their uchikomi geiko, from their branch dojo website
http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~mutoryu/page1/main.htm
-Honbu Dojo website
http://www.mutoryu.jp/

Hokushin Itto Ryu
http://www.hokushin-ittoryu.com/
Not much detail, just state that they have shinai kenjutsu. I think there is a video from quest show how they practice


Nakanishi-ha Itto Ryu and Kurama Ryu, I don't think they have website. But in Japan, you can easily find books about them.

To say the Itto ryu you know don't have special shinai geiko is too broad. There are many Itto Ryu out there. Nakanishi-ha Itto Ryu and Hokushin Itto Ryu were well known for there shinai geiko in the past.

[KenShi_JoB]

If you could clarify your sources that would help. The last thing we want to do is spread 2nd hand information.

In the itto-ryu that I am familiar with there is no special type of kendo that goes along with it.

Since you are in Osaka, I supposed the Itto Ryu you familiar with is Ono-ha Itto Ryu. They were known to be traditionalist, do not practice shinai geiko in the past.

[Kenshi]

I watched them practice and discussed with them.

You didnt mention that.

To say the Itto ryu you know don't have special shinai geiko is too broad.

Deliberatly so.

[akumalkenshi]

even in contemporary kendo there are many subtle variations of technique.

My teacher learned in his early years back in Japan. hi's techinique remains as what he learned.

when visiting instructors come by, upcurrent in shiai techniques witness our technique, in confidence they tell me that it is outdated.

I dont mind, with my age I have no chance in excelling at shiai anyway. but i do heed advise and try to keep a flexible mind and incorporate their teachings in my practice.

[Hyaku]

Im not doing this for the attention I was just currious to other old styles of kendo that go along with other arts. I know Hokushin Itto Ryu has thier own and Kyoshin Meichi Ryu as well, i was currious as to if anyone had any infomation on them, being this is a kendo forum, but I seem to be proven wrong. I posted that discription not to brag but to give information first before I recived it, and to little effect it seems.

Sorry for the headache

You keep quoting the fact that you are "Only in a Kendo forum". But some of us do practice koryu as well. Although I would not go as far as using the word 'exponent' of anything.

I can assure you if you were to practice with some of the Japanese veterans in an older style dojo or with the police, you would find kendo far from being sportlike. Rather than describing a slapping movement my old sensei always describes cutting with a shinai as "with a feeling of going down through suigetsu. Its the fact that we go well through with footwork that takes away a lot of the impact.

You say you are not bragging but the thing is we should all try and keep a bit of humility and not be too critical of what others do. As I said a lot of us try to do our best in modern and old budo.

[bushikan]

You keep quoting the fact that you are "Only in a Kendo forum". But some of us do practice koryu as well.

I admit my last post was rather short and misguied. And while I feel regretful for making those comments towards Hisham, I made those comments they exist as a result of my ignorance. I offer no appologies, being that the post and the post surrounding it explain the error of judgement that I have made. And however people may view me as a result (most likely negitively) is more than fully warrented. I offer no excuse, nor will I in the future towards those who view me negitivly, as a result of that action.



Although I would not go as far as using the word 'exponent' of anything.
I used the word exponent as a way to say that I am still very much a beginner in Shindo Munen Ryu and Budo in general.


I can assure you if you were to practice with some of the Japanese veterans in an older style dojo or with the police, you would find kendo far from being sportlike. Rather than describing a slapping movement my old sensei always describes cutting with a shinai as "with a feeling of going down through suigetsu. Its the fact that we go well through with footwork that takes away a lot of the impact.

I was not trying to bash kendo, in anyway. The Yushinkan, Negishi Shingoro, and Nakayama Hakudo all supported the vision of the ZNKR, and I do as well. I actually plan sometime in the future (with Ogawa sensei's permission) to join a kendo dojo in Tokyo and practice. In fact one of my sempai(s) teaches kendo in one of the polices precients (though I am unsure as to which one). I hope to one day be good enough to practice with them.


You say you are not bragging but the thing is we should all try and keep a bit of humility and not be too critical of what others do..

Again I offer no excuse.


As I said a lot of us try to do our best in modern and old budo.

I have no problem with gendai or koryu, as long as practitioners stay true to thier style teachings, and remain honest about what they do.

example:
I often post in regards to a video made by Roger Wehrhahn (6th dan, Sanshinkai) who published a video claiming to teach the authentic Shindo Munen Ryu Iai: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=24685&cat=366&page=1

And if he published such a video claiming such I imagine his students believe the same. And to dispite the email I have sent him regarding such issue; he has not answered, nor changed his claim.

Sorry I did not mean to change subject.

regards

[Kim Taylor]

I have no problem with gendai or koryu, as long as practitioners stay true to thier style teachings, and remain honest about what they do.

example:
I often post in regards to a video made by Roger Wehrhahn (6th dan, Sanshinkai) who published a video claiming to teach the authentic Shindo Munen Ryu Iai: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...cat=366&page=1

And if he published such a video claiming such I imagine his students believe the same. And to dispite the email I have sent him regarding such issue; he has not answered, nor changed his claim.

You do indeed post often on that Jeff, but frankly, I fail to see why. I also learned the Shindo Munen Ryu from Mitsuzuka sensei. I never, once I saw your Shindo Munen Ryu school demonstrated, confused the techniques or the dojo one with the other. Same name, different schools, no shock, no sense of outrage and/or betrayal on my part, just the realization that the video I saw of your SMR will do me no good in my own practice of the SMR I learned.

I doubt very much that Roger claims that what he's doing is "authentic" while what you're doing is "not authentic" or any such thing. He'll say "it's what I learned under the name I learned it" and that's the end of it. He's true to his teachings and honest about what he does, yes?

If it's that important to you, than the way to show that one is not the other is simply to show that one is not the other and be done. What other value is there in belabouring the issue. Showing being much more efficient than saying obviously.

Kim Taylor

[bushikan]

I doubt very much that Roger claims that what he's doing is "authentic" while what you're doing is "not authentic" or any such thing. He'll say "it's what I learned under the name I learned it" and that's the end of it. He's true to his teachings and honest about what he does, yes?

The dvd clearly states though the spelling is wrong, that his version was founded by Fukui Hyoemon Yoshihara, and that is my issue. Mitsuzuka
Takeshi never learned Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu, thus he never learned the iai. If Mr. Wehrhahn was just to say that Shindo Munen Ryu Iaido was a style developed out of Mitsuzaka's experience I would have no quarrel. Instead of doing so, he published a dvd claiming connection to the main line of Shindo Munen Ryu. If you need more evidence simple refer to Keshi Ryu: nihonmae which was taken from Shindo Munen Ryu's: Shoden Tachi Iai: Nanhonmae. And that no such form exists in Mitsuzuka's version.


If it's that important to you, than the way to show that one is not the other is simply to show that one is not the other and be done. What other value is there in belabouring the issue. Showing being much more efficient than saying obviously.

It is important to me, tradition and authenticity is very important to me (as I'm sure being a student Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu it is to you as well). Koryu is tradition in itself remember: people died to learn these traditions, many died as a result of these traditions (being used against them), and people died using these traditions. I have the absolute respect for any tradition: for these reasons, and I believe they should be passed along with as they were meant to be and in the most meticulous manner possible. And to construe such a simple truth such as legitimacy, is a slap in the face of those people who delicate their lives to these traditions.

I agree, that a demonstration would easily prove the difference immediately, my recommendation is to watch the Nihon no Kobudo video and the difference in approach will be easily be understood. But you right debating such a issue over a forum is fruitless, so unless a person inquires to/or claims a connection to Fukui Hyoemon's Shindo Munen Ryu online/publically I will not bring up this subject again, as it has proven counter productive.

(there no intended disrespect towards you Mr. Taylor nor Mr. Watkins from my last post. You both have nothing but my absolute respect)


Regards

[Aden]

It was a handy co-incidence, this thread was going just as someone said SMR iai (google-fu identifying it as Mitsuzuka version brought back from the USA) was available in my state - if I hadn't read this recently I may not have twigged that is was not a misspelling of MSR iai.

As the web is often the most accessible source of information it is important for people to post when they believe there is misinformation so that there is dispute relating to claims can be picked up.

Aden