38 standard vs. women's 39

[XiaoPhoenixGrl]

Sorry if this has been done before but is there a significant difference?

I know the FIK regulation for standard for women is 38, but I was given a women's 39 shinai as a gift, and since I'm still a newbie, I was wondering if there's a dramatic difference.

[Kent Enfield]

I know the FIK regulation for standard for women is 38Um, not quite right, but it's a common misconception.

The maximum length is based on age and not gender. The minimum weight is based on both age and gender. Thus adult women can use standard 39s (designed for adult men), standard 38s (designed for high school boys), or standard 37s (designed for junior high boys). Shorter than that (intended for grade school kids) and normal shinai are too light, and usually too thin as well, for adults of either gender. But anyone of either gender can use as short a shinai as they (and their instructor) want, as long as it meets the weight and tip-diameter requirements for their age and gender.

I can't comment on how different a standard (i.e. boys') 38 and a women's 39 would feel, being a large man who prefers a heftier feeling shinai anyway. I have held and done a few suburi with a women's 39. To me, it felt like I wasn't really holding anything, whereas a men's 39 that I cut down to a 37 to dabble in nito still felt substantial.

If the women's 39 is down near the minimum weight, it'll be lighter than the boys' 38 and weigh the same as a boys' 37. Being longer, it might feel slightly heavier.

[Alison2805]

Grrrr. :tired:


The maximum length is based on age and not gender. The minimum weight is based on both age and gender. Thus adult women can use standard 39s (designed for adult men), standard 38s (designed for high school boys), or standard 37s (designed for junior high boys). Shorter than that (intended for grade school kids) and normal shinai are too light, and usually too thin as well, for adults of either gender. But anyone of either gender can use as short a shinai as they (and their instructor) want, as long as it meets the weight and tip-diameter requirements for their age and gender.

39s are not designed for adult men. They are designed for adults. You can get a womens 39 which is slightly lighter, but 39s are for everyone. 38s are not designed for high school boys - they are designed for high school kids (not just boys) and women. 37 are also for high school kids. Adults wouldnt use a 37 for anything other than nito, Ive got one and its rediculously small.

A 38 and a womens 39 feel about the same, The regular 39 feels a bit heavier. You wouldnt use a 37 at all.

Heres the regulations:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kendo/shinai/

even though the "suggested size" for women is 38, you can use 38, womens 39 or 39, as long as it meets the minimum weight. They all feel slightly different.

As a side note, we have had a lot of problems here when we order 38s only to find that they are below the regulation weight. Something to watch out for.

[Kent Enfield]

Grrrr. :tired:
39s are not designed for adult men. They are designed for adults.No need to get upset.

Look at the website you yourself posted. See the different minimum weights based on gender. Now, what is the weight of a "standard" 39 shinai? Is 440 grams? Or is it 510 grams?

Yes, any one can use as heavy a shinai as they would like. If you want to swing around a 1000 gram shinai (and can find one), there's nothing in the rules stopping you. When I wrote "designed for men", I meant "designed meet the minimum weight standard for adult men". Maybe instead of that, I should have written, "designed to meet the minimum weight standard for adult men but still allowed to be used by women, as the minimum weights for women and girls are lower than those for men and boys of the same age group, thus any shinai that meets the minimum weight requirements for males will definitely exceed that for females in the same age group," but I thought that would be clear. Would you be less upset if I called the catagories "women's shinai" and "men's--and women can use them too--shinai"?

I guess it wasn't.

[Alison2805]

Would you be less upset if I called the catagories "women's shinai" and "men's--and women can use them too--shinai"?


You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults. Its just that women get the extra option of lighter ones (38s) if they want.


And a standard 39 is between 440 and 510 grams, or heavier. Thats pretty logical really.

[Martino]

Hehehe, looks like you gave Mark here a fright Alison.

Anyway back on topic,
Weights and lengths really only come into play when taking part in competitions (and possibly grading).

A larger shinai tends to take more psychical effort to swing. If a shinai is to heavy for a person they need to spend more strength/ effort controlling it and less on technique. This may induce bad habits. EG you use more right hand/arm to lift/stop the shinai, smaller cuts etc.

More things come into play here, like weigh and balance of a shinai, so it is not a cut and dry case.
One of the senior members of our club instructed on of our female members to train with a 37 shinai to build up speed. Once she was cutting faster she moved back to her longer shinai.

As a newbie it will not make much difference, and your sensei will be able to give you your best feedback.
My take is use the 39 for basics suburi (warm-ups) where you can more easily pay attention to what your doing. Then switch to the 38 when you start the waza (including the basics like men etc). When you switch over the 38 will most probably feel like a feather and faster, this is the sensation you want to maintain.

[Alison2805]

ah, well Ive now had my third coffee of the morning so Im less of a monster. :tongue:



One of the senior members of our club instructed on of our female members to train with a 37 shinai to build up speed. Once she was cutting faster she moved back to her longer shinai.

Now thats interesting! Ive always heard of people doing the opposite to get faster - using a heavier one then switching back.

[Kenshi]

You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults.

heh heh, chill out. i guess you wouldnt be happy shopping in japan for shinai.... cos you often see "for use by women" labels on the shinai racks. ive picked up a shinai and the guy in the shop has taken out of my hand saying "you dont want that, thats for women" before handing me a "man-shinai." i suspect the reverse would happen if a woman picked up a "man-shinai."

as for weight/length(/balance) - its simply down to preference. i dont think ive ever seen a female kenshi use a 39, and plenty of guys over here use lighter shinai or even 38s. most older guys use 38s i would say, and i know of a couple that use 37s as well.

anyway, unless you are competing regularly the weight doesnt even matter. fyi almost all shiai over here there is no shinai check... its all down to the honour system.

as for switching lengths/weights of shinai as a training tool --- its a good idea.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You dont get it, do you? THEY ARENT MENS. They are for all adults. Its just that women get the extra option of lighter ones (38s) if they want.You can gripe about it all you like, but most women don't use a standard 39.

And a standard 39 is between 440 and 510 grams, or heavier. Thats pretty logical really.No. A standard 39 meets the men's weight requirements. If they're lighter than 510, it's only by a little bit. A women's 39 is at or near 440 g.

[Alison2805]

You can gripe about it all you like, but most women don't use a standard 39.

Poodlspit. All the female kenshi I know do. Thats not a massive amount, but I dont think its as unusual as you think. You dont see online suppliers labelling shinai as Mens and Womens. Just standard and womens.

[Alison2805]

Having a look through some old threads it shows there is heaps of confusion on this. Mostly because people keep saying "thats a mens shinai" and "thats a womens shinai" and so on. Plus there were several women who were happy with 39s, and men who were happy with 38s.

Why cant everyone just go on what the regulations say? There is a suggested size for each sex, but you can use whatever feels fine for you, as long as it fits the regulations. Adding anything else to that just causes confusion.

[Martino]

Now thats interesting! Ive always heard of people doing the opposite to get faster - using a heavier one then switching back.

Idea behind it is been lighter you can swing it quicker and build up speed.
She had been trying to build her speed for a while but the heaver shinai was spoiling her technique.

Anyway I think a good portion of the women here in Canberra use 39 shinais. It depend on the available of 38. (An female numbers in our beginners courses)

Hehehehe
Go Alison,
I could elaborate but I am just going to sit back and enjoy.

[Alison2805]

Anyway I think a good portion of the women here in Canberra use 39 shinais. It depend on the available of 38. (An female numbers in our beginners courses)

Hehehehe
Go Alison,
I could elaborate but I am just going to sit back and enjoy.

Haha! You spectator you! :D

As an interesting point youve brought up Neil: do the females at your club CHOSE 38s after trying out both, or do they just get 38s because thats what they are expected to use? (trying to take the thread from Ali-rant to useful discussion, bear with me.)

[Kenshi]

Poodlspit. All the female kenshi I know do. Thats not a massive amount, but I dont think its as unusual as you think.

I know more than you. In fact, I got beaten up by a v.famous kenshis 5dan wife yesterday... she was on the 38 choo-choo train. Had she been on the 39 train she would have sacrificied some of her speed and I maybe wouldnt have lost as badly as I did.

The only woman I can say for sure used a 39 was an, erm, hefty/strong/tall gal. That was outside Japan.

I dont care what you use, but its just generally true that ladies tend not to use the heavier chunky shinai. If regulations had allowed me to use a 38 in the EKCs and WKC I took part in I would have gladly used them for v.obvious purposes..... the least of which not being cost.

As for regulations (2nd time I will say this) -- who cares about them if you are not an active competitor?

[s.j.]

I think you’re over-reacting a bit on the “39 aren’t men’s that’s gender bias etc. etc.” stance. The vast majority of standard 39 users are guys so such a designation is pretty reasonable. I get that your core intention is to eliminate gender bias on this point, but really by making this a big PC debate you’re shooting yourself in the foot because the term isn’t as implicitly gender biased as it is user descriptive.

Most of the women in my area use 38… and a lot of them would honestly have difficulty dealing with a standard (men’s) 39 shinai. The only reason I use a 39 as a 5’4” female is because that’s what I was given to start with and just happen to have enough muscle mass to keep using one effectively. That and I’m too lazy to learn how to get used to a 38.:ermm: I use a 39 carbon for drills and a women’s 39 for general keiko & shiai. (Aoi’s is very nice) The big downside to women's 39 it that they’re thinner & not as hard wearing due to the weight savings. Most of the girls at my club buy the standard 39 we sell to beginners, then change over to 38 permanently when they start shopping around and realize they can use something smaller/lighter. lol

[Martino]

I know more than you. In fact, I got beaten up by a v.famous kenshis 5dan wife yesterday...

Good for you and who cares.
Now travel to Western Australia and see why the women use 39 Shinai.
The simple answer you will most probably find is it is all the girls have access to at the local martial arts store (who wants to jump on the internet ever time they want to buy a shinai).

I find it amusing that someone can go "GRRR emote" and get a woo calm down response.
Respond with a single line "I like to be politicly correct/ gender neutral" and get a paragraph rebuttal from a couple of people.
Finally close the topic thread with a person experience comment and get told they are an idiot

And for the record most of the women who do kendo in Australia are taller and strong than your average Asian bird.

Anyway back to watching how people can/'t handle other having a different view / interpretation of the world around them.

[Alison2805]

I dont care about the gender bias, I was just concerned about how confusing it can be to be told that certain sizes are specificly for men or boys.

Its like saying that standard golf clubs are designed for men. Its misleading. Theyre designed for golfers. But you can still get special ones for women.

This leads to ideas such as "its regulation that I have to use a 38" which has popped up a few times in threads.


Anyway, you coming to the Nationals Martino? We should have a beer. Or several. :silly:

[Kenshi]

Good for you and who cares.

I do obviously!!! But your right in that it doesnt really help illustrate the point. Too much info.


And for the record most of the women who do kendo in Australia are taller and strong than your average Asian bird.

Good to know... this is todays new knowledge.

[JSchmidt]

Poodlspit. All the female kenshi I know do.

Which is opposite of my experience and seemingly most people outside Australia.

[XiaoPhoenixGrl]

O_O Wow I totally didn't mean to start a war between genders. I really didn't know! X_X

I do actively compete, but the last tournament I was in, I was 17, so I used the lightest my sabunim allowed me, to achieve optimum speed. He gave me a women's 39 as a B-day present, but I was wondering which I should purchase for backups. I'm since looking for a new dojo, due to relocation, so I can't easily ask him for advice.

All the info everyone gave was really helpful though. Thanks!

[lucy]

Which is opposite of my experience and seemingly most people outside Australia.

I don't know many other women in kendo, but in our dojo everyone uses 39 shinai.
I don't mind, in comparison to my iaito a shinai is pretty weightless anyway... :) And why use a shorter shinai if one doesn't have a problem with a longer one?
I'm quite tall, so I guess it would seem strange if I used a 38.

Just my limited experience. :wink:

[Neil Gendzwill]

As an interesting point youve brought up Neil: do the females at your club CHOSE 38s after trying out both, or do they just get 38s because thats what they are expected to use? (trying to take the thread from Ali-rant to useful discussion, bear with me.)We recommend 38s to them, so that's what they use. The few who have tried 39s haven't liked them.

Its like saying that standard golf clubs are designed for men. Its misleading. Theyre designed for golfers. But you can still get special ones for women.It's a good analogy. Women's golf clubs are a little shorter with a softer shaft. Women's skis tend to also be a little shorter and softer. The design is for people who, on average, are smaller and weaker than men. If you are stronger and larger than the average woman, then maybe you can successfully use men's clubs, men's skis or men's shinai. But it doesn't change the targetted user for the design.

Women especially tend to have weaker upper bodies than men. That extra 3 cm and 70 g between a 38 and 39 is a big difference. Also the size of the tsuka is for smaller hands.

[JByrd]

My wife tried the women's 39 shinai but it didn't seem to work for her because she is small (about 5' 2''). To get proper grip and control hasuji, a person with shorter arms must have a shorter tsuka. If you put a short handle on a long shinai it will be unbalanced.

A lot of the standard 38 shinai are weight-wise closer to the male high school standard of 480+ g. An adult woman could shave 40 g (almost 10%) off that and still be legal for shiai.

[Hisham]

I don't know many other women in kendo, but in our dojo everyone uses 39 shinai.
I don't mind, in comparison to my iaito a shinai is pretty weightless anyway... :) And why use a shorter shinai if one doesn't have a problem with a longer one?
I'm quite tall, so I guess it would seem strange if I used a 38.

Just my limited experience. :wink:

I guess that the "Helga" genome somehow spread to Australia then :silly:


FYI: Helga: Big Blonde Woman from the mountains

[ahmed61086]

Why cant some people accept that Women are Women, and Men are Men and we have differenent needs.

Men have men Shinai, and women have womens shinia. Kids have Kids shinia, and Adults have adult shinia.

I wear mens shoes, and I know that women can wear them, but they are still mens shoes.



BTW, I know Im stupid for entering this argument, and I personally think the argument is stupid. So that makes me 2*stupid. :ko: :confused: .......yeh.

[lucy]

FYI: Helga: Big Blonde Woman from the mountains

Impossible! My mother's name is Helga, and she's small and has brown hair!! But she's pretty strong. :wink: :silly:

[Hisham]

Didn't tell you that the Helgas can hide there true form and as you have confirmed they can't hide there strength. :glasses:











Man i've got too much scifi and fantasy BS in my head...

[Smakfull]

As a side note, we have had a lot of problems here when we order 38s only to find that they are below the regulation weight. Something to watch out for.Being a newbie, I'm wondering: can't you make them heavier by soaking them in water? You'll need to do that anyway, don't you? I'm just guessing, but they could be lighter because of water loss during transport, right?

Am I out of my depth here? I've never done something like this myself (although I always soak my shinai some when they arrive, but I guess most people do that), so I wouldn't know.

[The Limp]

Talk 'bout flames, uh?...

Well, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION (please, this is only an opinion) and as far as I know (and I state that I have limited knowledge of the subject) I believe the different sizes of shinai got to do ALSO with your arm length. If I remember correctly, if you put the tip of the tsuka in the inner part of your elbow, the tsuba should be at hand's height (I'm not good with terms, I know)

Let's say that it's generally accepted (true or not) that women tend to be shorter and that their muscular mass is lower once compared to men. So, having said that, i THINK it's pretty accurate to presume that they should need a shorter and lighter shinai to better use their waza; the balance of the shinai is really important in this cases.

I would also like to say that, this is just a "rule" or "standard". It's obvious (at least for me) that different persons have different needs. Maybe a short skinny guy would love to use a 38; some big muscular woman would need a heavy 39. But regulations exist, I presume, in order to achieve a better competition; it's not among it's purposes to give directions to perform better to men and women.

I started out with a 38 shinai, and I'm a man. It wasn't by choice: it was the only thing available to buy here. I do not regret a single hour I spent with it, as I believe it helped me to better grasp the concept of maai. Also I learnt to fight in a closer distance (I'm really tall and it's difficult)

Now I use a 39. It has better balance for me as my arms are long, and I must confess that my waza has improved over since I used the old 38. In the end, everything is about US doing de BEST kendo we can.

I hope I don't start a flame here :S

[BluishHue]

[QUOTE=JByrd;248749]To get proper grip and control hasuji, a person with shorter arms must have a shorter tsuka. If you put a short handle on a long shinai it will be unbalanced.QUOTE]

Thank you Mr. Byrd> this is something i have been interested of late.

I personally used a 39 'standard' for about 2 years. I am of medium height for women of my ancestory (~5'5) and am smack dab in the middle height of the other females in my dojo. However, as my kendo has improved (very slowly) more higher ranking persons have taken more of an interest in my practice. I have been told by more than one sensai and by higher ranking sempai that my shinai tsuka was 'too long'. So I tried to use the 38 as it has a shorter tsuka... HOWEVER, when measuring the tsuka length to the length of my forearm and attempting more proper grip, it was still too long.
(no, i don't think i look like i have some crazy deformity with really short arms given my height...grin).
I then had to make the tsuba leather shorter with several attempts (one was very misguided and made my sensai shake his head and smile ruefully) on several shinai of various sizes. I think I am closer to the best grip for me. I felt as if the shorter tsuka on the 39 was okey, but my sensai requested I try the 38 for a while as well.
In my dojo, most everyone starts with a 39 unless they are obviously very small in height (teens or shorter persons). After newbies decide they are here to stay, and buy their own shinai, they and the sensai's decide what equipment is best for them. As far as I know, buying a 'womens' shinai is not something that is stressed... i don't even think anyone has a 'womans' but will ask around.

[Smakfull]

As far as I know, buying a 'womens' shinai is not something that is stressed... i don't even think anyone has a 'womans' but will ask around.
No one at my dojo even knew that a light weight 39 existed. Small women were recommended 38 and larger women used heavy 39:s, sometimes adviced to shorten the tsukagawa. Well, the 39:s weren't adviced anything, but you know what I mean.

I didn't know the balance could be screwed up if I tampered with the tsukagawa, but it seems obvious now that someone mentioned it. I shortened mine some days ago and haven't tried it yet, so I'll see if i messed up on that one.

[JByrd]

A lot of the standard 38 shinai are weight-wise closer to the male high school standard of 480+ g. An adult woman could shave 40 g (almost 10%) off that and still be legal for shiai.

Yipes! I can't believe how poorly I phrased that. What I meant to say was "An adult woman could use a shinai 40g (almost 10%) lighter, and still be legal for shiai."

With my stupid choice of words, I unintentionally made it sound like I was advocating actually taking a tool and shaving weight off a shinai. I know perfectly well that would be a VERY BAD IDEA, and under no circumstances should anybody do such a thing. Unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing, removing a significant amount of material could compromise the structural integrity of the shinai, possibly resulting in catastrophic failure.

Anyway, it doesn't seem to affect the balance too much to put one size smaller tsuka on a shinai (e.g., a 37 tsuka on a 38 shinai). If you put a 37 tsuka on a 39 shinai it starts to feel too tip heavy to me, even for a dobari. It also looks strange to see the fattest part of the shinai so far from the right hand.

[Smakfull]

Anyway, it doesn't seem to affect the balance too much to put one size smaller tsuka on a shinai (e.g., a 37 tsuka on a 38 shinai).
No, I gave that a thought after I wrote here, and I made the same conclusion. Especially in my case, where I've positioned my hands at the same place unrelated to where the tsuba is.

Anyway, what I was about to write here is that I shortened my tsukagawa on my 440g shinai with 2 cm, and I have never ever had such a wonderfull fighting experience. I didn't know it could make such a difference just to have a tsuba to "lean on". And it looks right too, no more grumbles from my sensei now :D

[lucy]

Just a little update, my female senpai used her light 39 for the first time last night at practise and she was very happy with it. But she also thinks that it most probably isn't as durable as a regular 39, especially during kirikaeshi it felt "weak", she said.
Best used for shinsa and taikai. :)

I will buy one of them for sure. :D

[lcox]

I would be interested to hear from very experienced women whether they find that longer shinai are helpful in shiai matches?

I'm 5'4" and started with a women's 38, and later switched to a women's 39 for the extra length (though I did have to shorten the leather, the tsuba...something?). I can't tell if the extra length has helped me or not however. I might start warming up with a standard 39 to increase strength, though I tend to like the lighter weight.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I can't tell if the extra length has helped me or not however.If you can't tell, probably not.

[lcox]

If you can't tell, probably not.

Well, more likely I'm just not good enough yet to judge. I'm interested in the long-term view - in other words, with practice, will I attain better performance with a 38 or a 39?

[ShinKenshi]

Well, more likely I'm just not good enough yet to judge. I'm interested in the long-term view - in other words, with practice, will I attain better performance with a 38 or a 39?At this point, based on your level, any noticeable change in performance will largely be due to your overall skill improving and not a direct result from using different shinai. If you rely on your shinai to give you an edge over your opponent instead of your technique, you'll get beat out in the long run. Use what's appropriate for your size and let your skill do the talking. If you have doubts, speak with your Sensei about this as he/she can actually see what fits your size and body mechanics.

[turboyoshi]

Well, more likely I'm just not good enough yet to judge. I'm interested in the long-term view - in other words, with practice, will I attain better performance with a 38 or a 39?

I think what Neil is hinting at is that if you're not good enough to notice the differences between different shinai, then those differences aren't important enough to affect your kendo. As your skill improves, and you become more aware of subtle differences, you will naturally gravitate towards using a shinai that feels correct for you. Therefore, regardless of what anyone else advises, what works for you will be something you have to discover for yourself.

[Raindrop]

I agree with those who say you need to figure it out yourself. I switched to women's 39s last year and I felt like it improved my kendo cause it gave me more reach... but really all it did was bridge the distance I wasn't making by myself, but should have. Now that I'm starting to finally get my hips to move forward I actually feel more comfortable with the 38s. I don't need the extra distance from the 39, and I feel like I have more control with the shorter shinai.

Use both during training and try to get the feel for what is better. Even if you can't figure it out right away, at least you're going to get used to both lengths and at a later stage you can still make a decision.

[MikeW]

I would be interested to hear from very experienced women whether they find that longer shinai are helpful in shiai matches?

I'm 5'4" and started with a women's 38, and later switched to a women's 39 for the extra length (though I did have to shorten the leather, the tsuba...something?). I can't tell if the extra length has helped me or not however. I might start warming up with a standard 39 to increase strength, though I tend to like the lighter weight.

I dunno if this is the L. Cox I know or not but I'm assuming it is...lol. If so you should try talking to Ryoko Barr sensei when you have a chance. I don't know which shinai she prefers but I'm sure she would give you her take on the matter. If you've not met her before I can introduce you if you are going to go to the SEUSKF taikai in the Fall.

[lcox]

Hi Mike! Yep it's me. I'd be happy to get introduced to her, we'll definitely be at the SEUSKF taikai in the Fall.

Raindrop: thanks for your thoughts, that's an interesting point about moving from the hips. The control issue is (at least i assume from my limited knowledge) an problem of strength that would change in the long run.

[Groundpro1]

I used to use 38 men, but never felt comfortable with it.. Not for the length, but for the weight.. It seemed a bit heavy. It was ok to practice but when it came to sparring, I was never happy with it since I couldn't attack as fast I wanted to.. I found myself using so much of force on my shoulder that slowed me down and end up getting hit while I'm getting ready to attack.. Then I got 39" women, and I could immediately feel the lighter weight and my speed seemed to get better. Also, notice that it gives me a longer range of attack.. I was told every shinai is different and I just need to find what works for me.. I am planning to order 38"women and see if there's any difference..