Virginia Tech

[rainmaker]

From what I have gathered from various source, shoter was an 24 years old Asian who was looking for a girlfriend at the dorm with 2sets of 9mm hand gun. Killed two stiudents and move to the classroom and lock the door. And then he lined up the students and killed one by one.

Wimp, coward, chickin shit, #$%$ing bast@#$! And he is not worth to kill himself. Hope he burns in hell eternally but God will make his decision for us.

I really hope none of our kendokas hurt from this incident and I would like to give all my condolences for the victims of this terrible act.

[Washington]

2 9 mils? silly me.. I keep trying flowers.

[bullet08]

not sure what happened, but from what i heard, the campus security didn't response to first shooting. two hours and 30 more people later they showed up and the guy killed himself and others by that time. quicker response might have helped to lessen the body count.

it's sad when things like this happen. what kinda nut goes around shooting people like that?

pete

[Hisham]

it's sad when things like this happen. what kinda nut goes around shooting people like that?

pete

The kind of SOBs who don't have the value of life in there programing.

[tgsfg]

His teachers have even notified adminstrators that they believed he was extremely "disturbed" because of the grotesque things he would write (essays and scripts). The most disturbing thing, though, is the fact that he was laughing as he was shooting.

[Masahiro]

u know, i don't care if i get flamed for saying this but. ..i really hate how when something bad happens. We all tend to point the fingers and look at things from "one" dimension. take this guy for example, we look at him and say "wow, what a horrible act it was" and "he was crazy, wasn't he?!!!" but, you know who made him this way? US! I am sure at one time he was perfectly sane, and a happy child. So what turned an innoncent mind into a dangerous criminal? point the fingers back at yourselves. Can anyone of you say that you never laughed at anyone who you shouldn't have? or looked down on those who's less previllaged than you? or have been a jerk to someone who doesn't seem like he/she has many friends? I am NOT saying/implying/asserting that this Virginia Tech incident was right or was goign to happen sooner or later. I just want to point out that let's use this opportunity to be a little more tolerant of each other. Instead of reflecting on the reason behind this person's act, we say . .. "let's try gun control", I have many korean friends who are quite worried about howthe general public will react to them. Remember what 911 happened, people who are not even middle eastern (by nationality, or by color) were being beat up on the land of the free? U think Virginia tech is going think twice before they admit any more permanent resident (legal alien students)? You bet!!! but what does all that do? YEs, you can take the weapon away but if someone has the intention to kill in their heart, they will find other means. I don't think it's unfair to say that some professors in college/academia world deserve to be put in their place once in a while. Funny thing I guarantee the record of 33 dead will be out done by the next 4 years. Wanna know why? because that's all people focus on. with head lines like .."biggiest shooting in the history" some crazy psycho will remember this in the future and plan a more elaborate scheme. by me writing this, i know it wont do much but i just had to get that out of my system. sorry if i offended anyone.

[ben]

Well Bush is right to back the NRA and not call for greater gun control, because it obviously does nothing at all. Just compare the gun related homicides in Australia and the US. Oh. Well, anyway it's part of the US constitution. As the late, great Bill Hicks once said: "There is no connection between having a gun and killing someone with it, and not having a gun and not killing someone with it, and you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."

Still, the families of the dead might have found his support for the NRA just a tad, um... insensitive? Cruel and unusual even?

b

[Keith Hong]

Here is an article by the Korean media regarding the Virginia Tech tragedy that I found especially outrageous:
http://news.media.daum.net/society/others/200704/18/yonhap/v16427612.html
The gist of it is that as Virginia is such a Anglo-Saxon dominated racist state, the kid was probably discriminated against - hence the deep-seated rage and the act of violence.
Such complete bullsh*t! I used to live in Fairfax county! Of course it's not a perfect place, but is certainly not the home of white supremacy movment the article makes it out to be!
The f*ck-up was a deranged asshole - it's the assailant's fault. Don't try to place the blame outward.
Guns didn't make him do this - I honestly believe he would have killed people a tropical island with coconuts, being the screw up he was.
My grief and sympathy to those at VT - none of you deserved any of this.
Peace, time to grieve and heal...

[bullet08]

sure we can point finger at hundreds of different things and say that's why he turned out that way. but the bottom line is this guy was a nut case. how many times day you think you would like to punch soneone out and how many times a day do you actually punch someone out? this guy didn't just think he want to punch someone out, he actually bought a gun, file out the serial number and went on shooting rampaged. from the doctors who treated wounds from some of the victims who didn't die, this guy did a good job at trying to make sure that whoever he shot didn't get up again. multiple gun shot to each person, at least three per person. he went throught this rather well planned. this is a phycho who should have been locked up before something like this happened.

pete

[ben]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

b

[Hisham]

What's frustrating about this kind of cases, is that the SOB kills himself after doing his cowardly act. I feel for the families of the dead students.

Masahiro, the fact that he killed himself shows that he knew what he did which makes "the society is guilty" comment irrelevant, as Bullet08 said wanting to harm and acting upon it isn't the same, as human beings we all have negative thoughts sometimes for whatever reasons.
What i don't understand is how come nobody (knowing that people react differently when facing death, most would freeze i guess) tried to get to him, is there any account of anybody that tried to do so?

[bullet08]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

b

trust me, getting gun isn't all that hard.. even with background check and waiting period. besides, he got the gun in march, and he doesn't have any criminal background which means he would have had the gun in his hand by the time this happened even with background check and waiting period.

what bothers me is the response of the law enforcement agency around that campus. the first shooting was 2 hrs before the second shooting.. why wasn't the cops canvasing the campus for the shooter? and why wasn't the building rushed? what were they waiting for when there has been more than 100 shots fired by this nutcase?

one comment my wife made was 'why are all the police officers so fat in that campus?' of course, she was talking about campus cops and not the SWAT units.

pete

[Sparv]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

I totally agree. In France, the "classes prépas" are two years of very hard work, I was at an average of 65h a week. It lasts for at least two years, and it's not an exam at the end, but a competitive examination.

In some classes, the ambiance of "I'm alone against all the others" just drive people mad. There are suicides every years.

BUT NO SHOOTINGS.

That prove that gun control is efficient.

[Ignatz]

I wondered how long it would take until non-USA folks would turn this into a platform for their anti-US rants.

"Well I, for one, think that the U.S. gun laws are terrible, not like in my fine country".

Who cares what you think. Or if you think at all, which could be the subject of serious debate.

[Manuka]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

b

Virginia State Police web site

Firearms purchaser background check
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

What they are checking for
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

The only difference between Virginia and most other States is that Virginia uses modern technology to get the answer from online databases to give an instant approval or rejection like a credit card purchase, rather than perform a manual check taking weeks, or in some states months.

Please note that swords are also "arms" and therefore everyone should have a criminal background check before being allowed to purchase a sword.

Perhaps if the crazy had not been able to get a firearm he would have made a bomb like those in the middle-east on a daily basis, or sarin gas as in Japan.

Why not blame the abberant behavior on the person who committed rather than everything except that person.

[Kyung]

I heard about this. Apparently from what I've 'heard' (not from news), the girlfriend cheated on him and he went on a rampage. Killed people in class without discrimination before killing himself. I think he's a total nutcase. What brought him to that state who knows.
But my friend was unhappy about media focusing too much on the fact that he's Korean than the actual incident that happened. US media, you know.

[Kyung]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

b

maybe now virginian college students will know better to arm themselves when going to school.
You're right. too easy to get guns. It's a pain to get a gun in NJ....then again what are you going to do with a pistol? Shoot cans outside? I think assault rifles are banned in NJ

[rainmaker]

Even though I disagree with he was a normal kid before, I have to agree with you that we all have some responsibility in a way. Don't blame Koreans, guns, systems or policy. I think it is time to think of your surrounding and say something nice to your friends....


I am sure at one time he was perfectly sane, and a happy child. So what turned an innoncent mind into a dangerous criminal? point the fingers back at yourselves. Can anyone of you say that you never laughed at anyone who you shouldn't have? or looked down on those who's less previllaged than you? or have been a jerk to someone who doesn't seem like he/she has many friends?

[Kyung]

Virginia State Police web site

Firearms purchaser background check
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

What they are checking for
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

The only difference between Virginia and most other States is that Virginia uses modern technology to get the answer from online databases to give an instant approval or rejection like a credit card purchase, rather than perform a manual check taking weeks, or in some states months.

Please note that swords are also "arms" and therefore everyone should have a criminal background check before being allowed to purchase a sword.

Perhaps if the crazy had not been able to get a firearm he would have made a bomb like those in the middle-east on a daily basis, or sarin gas as in Japan.

Why not blame the abberant behavior on the person who committed rather than everything except that person.

Well blame is so obvious. Next best thing we can do is what caused it and how it happened. There was the columbine which I think was worse than this, and history more or less repeated itself. If we can't keep track of who's sane and who's deranged, then least thing we can do is limit access to arms and information on how to make bombs

[Washington]

In some classes, the ambiance of "I'm alone against all the others" just drive people mad. There are suicides every years.
BUT NO SHOOTINGS.
That prove that gun control is efficient.

true, except for this one

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1626831.stm

or this one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1896108.stm

or this one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4134886.stm

or the other 11 pages the bbc quick search pulled up on france / shooting alone.. Gun control does not work.. if one of those kids had a gun and knew how to use it how many lives would have been saved?

[Manuka]

then again what are you going to do with a pistol? Shoot cans outside?

http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/programme/history_uk.asp?DiscCode=SH&sportCode=SH
Shooting has been contested at most of the Olympic Games. The sport first appeared in 1896.
Currently there are 3 pistol events for men and 2 for women.
In the USA most competitive events are organized by the NRA and listed in their quarterly magazine "Shooting Sports". In NJ there would be 1 -2 events every month, more indoor in the winter, more outdoor in the summer


You're right. too easy to get guns. It's a pain to get a gun in NJ.... In NJ it is pretty much the ame as Virginia, apply for background check. Difference is in NJ you wait about 6 months for them to process manually. 1 permit for rifles and shotguns which becomes invalid and you must re-apply if/when you change address. 1 permit for each handgun.


I think assault rifles are banned in NJ

Unless you are a registered member of a club that practices under the Department of Civilian Marksmanship program.

NJ Statutes
"f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;"

Actually in NJ everything is forbidden, then they have acres and acres of 'exceptions'

[Kyung]

http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/programme/history_uk.asp?DiscCode=SH&sportCode=SH
Shooting has been contested at most of the Olympic Games. The sport first appeared in 1896.
Currently there are 3 pistol events for men and 2 for women.
In the USA most competitive events are organized by the NRA and listed in their quarterly magazine "Shooting Sports". In NJ there would be 1 -2 events every month, more indoor in the winter, more outdoor in the summer

In NJ it is pretty much the ame as Virginia, apply for background check. Difference is in NJ you wait about 6 months for them to process manually. 1 permit for rifles and shotguns which becomes invalid and you must re-apply if/when you change address. 1 permit for each handgun.



Unless you are a registered member of a club that practices under the Department of Civilian Marksmanship program.

NJ Statutes
"f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;"

Actually in NJ everything is forbidden, then they have acres and acres of 'exceptions'

Never really looked into all the laws. I saw 'all firearms' need permits. Which I interpreted as including an airsoft and I found it pointless. Then I spoke to a police officer and he said airsoft was fine without permit. I don't know what NJ's doing but it's not very pleasant. It's too bad you have to own a gun to shoot at the range. Because I'm paranoid about carrying guns in the public even if consealed. I never know what to expect from NJ

[Ignatz]

If you are a U.S.citizen and think that guns should be banned, here is what you do. Get your state legislature to draft a constitutional amendment and put it to a vote. If the people in your state and 75% of the other states agree with you then you got yourself a ban.

Gee, that's not going to happen now, is it?

So you can then try to get your state legislature to institute what I call "weasel laws". Laws that have the effect of the constitutional amendment without having to go through all of the trouble of actually following the law yourself.

Nope, that's not going to work either, even the U.S. Courts follow the law.

My god, what is a simple minded, one issue person to do? Go live in some country where all they need to do to change fundamental rights is have some guy from the Ministry of Stupid Shit to make a decree.

[Manuka]

Kyung,

Gun, sword, no difference, you carry it in a case. Several hundred thousand people carry guns around NJ every hunting season.

and believe me, or check and see what is happening in the UK and Australia, when guns are banned two things will happen.
1. people will still get killed with guns - technically impossible as no one has them but it does happen. Maybe the Vatican's miracle Dept. can look into it.
2. all the media attention will now shift to ban something else - swords. Swords are also an easier target - much fewer voters.

[Kyung]

It's a fine line. On the one hand, the most efficient way of control would be to scan everybody for mental illness. Then that's subject to inconsistency and subjective diagnosis. And on a more practical side, US won't spend a dime on it. Healthcare system is treatment to treat, not treatment to prevent in US.
Then there's the issue with banning guns giving rise to dissent.
Then there's issue with censoring movies that glorify use of guns and mass killing. Freedom of speech.
Then there's the legislative issue which is tied to dissent part.
Then there's inconsistency of moral values of all variety.
What these factors add up to is that if we want freedom, we have to be willing to accept some side effects of it?
Recently, I am really in doubt as to politician's true objective.
I better stop before I lose my sanity

[Manuka]

If you are a U.S.citizen and think that guns should be banned, here is what you do. Get your state legislature to draft a constitutional amendment and put it to a vote. If the people in your state and 75% of the other states agree with you then you got yourself a ban.

Gee, that's not going to happen now, is it?

So you can then try to get your state legislature to institute what I call "weasel laws". Laws that have the effect of the constitutional amendment without having to go through all of the trouble of actually following the law yourself.

Nope, that's not going to work either, even the U.S. Courts follow the law.

My god, what is a simple minded, one issue person to do? Go live in some country where all they need to do to change fundamental rights is have some guy from the Ministry of Stupid Shit to make a decree.


Careful there Ignatz, the weasel community may object.

[Ignatz]

good thing guns are banned in Japan otherwise this would have happened more than two times.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070418a1.html

[Kyung]

Japanese Syndicates big issue there. I didn't know they had access to firearms. I heard they fight with kitchen knives or katanas but I guess times change

[KhawMengLee]

Wow, 33 people die a horrible death(yes, gunman included) and I thought this page would have at least a few condolences for the dead not a "my country is better than yours" free for all...

RIP to the victims.

[Kenzan]

Yeah, but maybe if it wasn't SO easy to get guns... In Virginia no background checks, no waiting period.

b

This issue isn't about gun control or racism, or mental illness, or jilted love, or bitter rage. It never ceases to amaze me how soon after these events occur that the topic swiftly turns to politics and psychology. It's as predictable as the interview with his neighbors will be, once they find out where he lived: "He was such a quiet, nice young man," They'll say. I say, Let's try and go a different,
less predictable direction this time, shall we?

The issue is really about 33 people who were mercilessly murdered.

Try as we might, we can only speculate as to *why* this person did what he did, but I am doubtful we ever will know for certain, ~and does it matter? Will we ever be able to make an "anti-killing spree" pill?

The other issue I see, and I also have my serious doubts, is; will we, no matter how hard we try, either through legislation, or analysis, paranoia and over reactive preparation, be able to fully prevent such a tragedy from happening again?

I agree somewhat with what Masahiro said about using this as an opportunity to reflect on being better to each other.
If anything, and perhaps what people choose not to face, is that these kinds of events can happen at any time any where, and there's 100% nothing one can do about it. It also serves to teach us that life is a precious thing, and could end for any of us at any time.

[Kyung]

Well people around him did notice some strange signs of him being mentally disturbed. But then a lot of people only look like they have that problem. I think I could be included in this category because I don't talk much around people I don't know, say like class rooms.

[Dervish]

Japanese Syndicates big issue there. I didn't know they had access to firearms. I heard they fight with kitchen knives or katanas but I guess times change

I figured the yakuza have both firearms and Katanas, but then again, I get all my world information from video games like Red Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Steel) :p (I don't even have a Nintendo Wii)


Well people around him did notice some strange signs of him being mentally disturbed. But then a lot of people only look like they have that problem. I think I could be included in this category because I don't talk much around people I don't know, say like class rooms.

I think a distinction is obviously made between being a shy, private person who will warm up to people once they get to know them better; and a mentally disturbed person who keeps to themselves, hates everyone, and is filled with a lot of frightening negative emotions like this crazy guy was.

[Kenzan]

I think a distinction is obviously made between being a shy, private person who will warm up to people once they get to know them better; and a mentally disturbed person who keeps to themselves, hates everyone, and is filled with a lot of frightening negative emotions like this crazy guy was.

Or, he could have been a totally sane guy or gal like any of us, and just decided he'd had enough of life, and decided to take others with him.
The key here is that people always assume that the person simply HAD to have been mentally ill or on drugs.
It's disconcerting for them to think otherwise.

[tgsfg]

Or, he could have been a totally sane guy or gal like any of us, and just decided he'd had enough of life, and decided to take others with him.
The key here is that people always assume that the person simply HAD to have been mentally ill or on drugs.
It's disconcerting for them to think otherwise.

He had an imaginary girlfriend named Jelly, and this Jelly called him Spanky. He took photos of his classmates and teachers during class with his camera phone. Was arrested for stalking and checked into a mental institute. He had a journal that had instructions to "mass destruction." Tried to burn down the dorm and allegedly sent bomb threats to the school. He scared people so much, that students assumed he was the shooter before it was announced. Maybe we're just assuming that he had some mental issues, but he obviously gave a lot of reasons for people to think that way. It could also be the media, but I wouldn't say that he was perfectly sane.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Or, he could have been a totally sane guy or gal like any of us, and just decided he'd had enough of life, and decided to take others with him.That last part is where the insanity thing comes from.

[Kenzan]

That last part is where the insanity thing comes from.

I suppose it largely depends on whether or not someone believes in the concept of temporary insanity or not, which I don't.
I see it as levels of impulse control based upon certain life events and influences.

[Ignatz]

Insanity is a legal word not a medical diagnosis. Historically the rule was, at the time of committing the act, the accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing or, if he did know it, that he did not know what he was doing was wrong.

It is even more complicated than that nowadays as are the possible verdicts and consequences.

Why do people do the things that they do? Was Ted Bundy "insane"? How about the guy in NYC that made soup out of his girlfriend and fed the homeless people? Charles Whitman? Charles Manson? William Cally? The National Guardsmen at Kent State? The Mississippi State Police 10 days later at Mississippi State? How about Hitler? Eichman? Iwane Matsui?

I had a teacher in college, Polish guy. Nazis put him in a concentration camp. He escaped and walked across Europe into the hands of the Russians who put him in a Gulag. He escaped again and walked back across Russian and Europe. His favorite saying was, "And the beat goes on."

[JSchmidt]

I wondered how long it would take until non-USA folks would turn this into a platform for their anti-US rants.

"Well I, for one, think that the U.S. gun laws are terrible, not like in my fine country".

Who cares what you think. Or if you think at all, which could be the subject of serious debate.


Ohh, touchy. While I agree that it's highly unlikely that introducing stricter gun-laws in the US would have any effect, maybe you really should take a good look at what kind of culture continously allow so many of it's citizens to get slaughtered by guns. You cannot deny that you have a problem with gun related homocides, even without the seemingly regular school shooting.

[Kenzan]

Ohh, touchy. While I agree that it's highly unlikely that introducing stricter gun-laws in the US would have any effect, maybe you really should take a good look at what kind of culture continously allow so many of it's citizens to get slaughtered by guns.

(Comic book Guy)
Um, Hellooooo? Could that sentence have been any more contemptuous?

[Ignatz]

I think this is neither the time nor the place to discuss U.S. culture or lack thereof. It serves no useful purpose.

[Kenzan]

Agreed.
I have a knack for forgetting myself..

[Maro]

I saw some extremely distasteful NRA Ads on another forum, using the Virginia Tech massacre as examples of why you should have a gun.

If they are genuine, that is simply despicable.

[Washington]

really? how so


..Gun control does not work.. if one of those kids had a gun and knew how to use it how many lives would have been saved?

[Kenzan]

See, here's how I see it:
Ok..so wave the magic wand and poof! Everyone's armed.
With what? Handguns? Ok..
So then people who are inclined to use violence will then switch to twin Uzis.
Ok..so then we allow everyone Uzis and Automatic weapons to carry around with them all the time...
Ok, so the shooters then switch to automatic grenade launchers...
Ok..so then we allow any and all weaponry to be carried at all times.
Then the predators will switch to home made nerve agents.
Ok..so now we all are sitting in class, armored and bristling with firepower, wearing our gas masks.
Then the killers decide to poison the food supply......
I guess you get the point.
The answer isn't "arm" everyone. That is a ridiculously unreasonable idea.
So is the idea of metal detectors at every turn, armed security guards swarming everywhere and retinal/DNA scanners at each door with a safe room in each facility.

I suppose that this is one of the prices for living in a free society.
If there's an answer that makes sense to these events, and if there is a way to reduce them reasonably, I'd sure like to know what it is.

[Ignatz]

. . .If there's an answer that makes sense to these events, and if there is a way to reduce them reasonably, I'd sure like to know what it is.

There is not. If anyone tells you there is, he/she is full of shit.*

*excepting, of course, the answer set forth above.

[Alison2805]

I saw some extremely distasteful NRA Ads on another forum, using the Virginia Tech massacre as examples of why you should have a gun.

If they are genuine, that is simply despicable.

I agree. :(

[budocop]

Everyone is shocked by the VT shootings. It is a very sad incident. However, no one should be shocked. Do your research or talk to any local Police/SWAT officer. This type of incident has been coming for years and too many people have ignored the signs or just denied them. Law enforcement has done its best but more often than not their hands are tied by the same people they work for.

Once again I am not saying this isn't a tradgedy. I do believe it could have been avoided or at least stopped before it reached the level it did.

For further info refer to On Combat (Grossman) and Terror at Beslan (Giduch).

Also I heard this guy was cleared by Mental Health. What does that say about their competency. My experience working with them is that they are easily manipulated and generally more confused than the people they are supposed to be helping.

[budocop]

of course it would come up. gun contro is idiotic. maybe we should examine the tactics used by the Israelees instead. Arm and train our teachers. and no that doesnt mean arm everyone

[h2o]

of course it would come up. gun contro is idiotic. maybe we should examine the tactics used by the Israelees instead. Arm and train our teachers. and no that doesnt mean arm everyoneOr maybe you should take a look at the underlying causes leading up to this behaviour instead of "solving" the symptoms by introducing more violence?

All countries have suicidal maniacs, no denying that. Being a fairly small country, Sweden has also had it's fair share of mentally instable persons murdering people without any reason. Almost never with firearms though, but usually with knives and once a car on a narrow street.
I am happy with our strict gun laws since I believe killing 33 people will be a lot harder using a knife than it is with a gun. Whether or not banning guns in the US would help you, I don't really know. But the liberal gun laws are a big reason why I would never want to live there.

Also my greatest condolences to the victims families. Hopefully these shootings will have some positive feedback on your society and not the other way around.

[Sparv]

Just a small piece of information:

Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 22 times more likely to kill someone you know than they are to kill in self-defense. Kellermann, New England Journal of Medicine, 1997 (http://www.rileyhospital.org/document.jsp?locid=1439)

[budocop]

one could kill more than 33 with an IED if they really wanted to. I agree that we should look at the underlying cause, hence Grossman's studies. www.killology.com

[h2o]

one could kill more than 33 with an IED if they really wanted to.
Yes, or with a tank or nuclear device. Sadly, none of these are available on the swedish market. :confused2

[budocop]

Improvised Explosive Device

[Decado]

I wondered how long it would take until non-USA folks would turn this into a platform for their anti-US rants.

"Well I, for one, think that the U.S. gun laws are terrible, not like in my fine country".

Who cares what you think. Or if you think at all, which could be the subject of serious debate.

I hope this doesn't turn into an anti-US rant! This sort of thing happens everywhere. I still cry when I remember what happened at Dunblane in Scotland when a nutter broke into a junior school and shot dead sixteen children aged around five! I know people who live in Dunblane and you can't even start to understand what the parents went through.

This should not be about a country's gun laws but about what causes someone to flip like this. The gun is irrelevant here. Someone attacked children in a local nursery school a few years ago with a machete. If it hadn't been for the bravery of one of the adults several children would have been killed. A nutter will always find something to kill with. A gun may make it easier and cause more deaths but a country's gun laws will have little effect on that. We have totally banned hand guns since Dunblane here but we still have a high incidence of gun deaths. Apparently, it is easier than ever to get a gun here for the unlawful. A nutter will find a way of getting a weapon no matter what.

I realise that something like this is very difficult for people like us to come to terms with, much less understand. I was in the US when Columbine High happened and felt the shock. It was very easy to think "that's something that doesn't happen in the UK". But Dunblane and Hungerford had already happened by then. As had the shooting in Australia if I remember correctly.

Anyway, my rant over. Please, please, please don't turn this into an anti -other/not my country rant!

[JSchmidt]

really? how so

You don't think there's something inherently wrong if kids needs to carry guns to protect themselves whilst in school? What kind of society is that?.

[bullet08]

Yes, or with a tank or nuclear device. Sadly, none of these are available on the swedish market. :confused2

it's not that it's not on swedish market.. you are looking at wrong market. everything is for sale as far as weapon is concern since the end of cold war. i heard russian mafia's still making killings on weapons trade.

pete

[bullet08]

this idea of who is insane and not doesn't work either. back in school, i wasn't all that different from this kid. i hated life, i hated shcool, and i hated everything. tho, i did drink ton of beer and spent large amount of my time talking to people. tho most of the days were spent smoking in the library reading books and ignoring everyone. and i wasn't the only person who was like that. if we keep this insanity thing going, half of the kids in college will be marked insane and will be put into hand cuff. there is line between who hates life and everything, and who is willing to go shopping at guns r us and start shooting people. both might be depressed and crazy, but one is harmless nutcase, and other one is time bomb about to go off. how can anyone tell? it just takes little push to make one go over that line.. or not.

pete

[h2o]

it's not that it's not on swedish market.. you are looking at wrong market. everything is for sale as far as weapon is concern since the end of cold war. i heard russian mafia's still making killings on weapons trade.

Don't take me so literally. Of course most stuff are for sale or are otherwise obtainable if you are prepared to cross a few borders (geographically and ethically). I just don't think it is really relevant to the discussion if he could have killed more people by building custom explosives since I bet they are quite a bit harder to handle. I have never heard of any psychopathic killer executing people with explosives. Probably because it is much easier to pick up a knife or gun. Especially killing with a firearm is easy. That's why I have never really liked them.

[bullet08]

Don't take me so literally. Of course most stuff are for sale or are otherwise obtainable if you are prepared to cross a few borders (geographically and ethically). I just don't think it is really relevant to the discussion if he could have killed more people by building custom explosives since I bet they are quite a bit harder to handle. I have never heard of any psychopathic killer executing people with explosives. Probably because it is much easier to pick up a knife or gun. Especially killing with a firearm is easy. That's why I have never really liked them.

i heard before this incident, the last largest killing in US school was done with dynamite under a school building. and think of that other nutcase who blew up fed building some time ago.. van packed full of fertilizer.. if someone wants to kill.. they will find a way. it's just too easy to kill people.. innocent people.. unarmed people. it just takes some imagination and a location where there are large number of people packed into small space. and too much of this information is already out there for anyone who wants to do the crime.

pete

[h2o]

i heard before this incident, the last largest killing in US school was done with dynamite under a school building. and think of that other nutcase who blew up fed building some time ago.. van packed full of fertilizer.. if someone wants to kill.. they will find a way. it's just too easy to kill people.. innocent people.. unarmed people. it just takes some imagination and a location where there are large number of people packed into small space. and too much of this information is already out there for anyone who wants to do the crime.

pete
I just say that there is a difference between planning and executing a bombing (which involves buying explosives, placing them and firing them off) and going out shooting or knifing people. If you are 23 and depressed I think it is quite easier to just go out and shoot people in frustration than placing bombs.
I don't know about the school incident you talk about, but correct me if I am wrong when I recall that the Oklahoma bombing was a political bombing (terrorism) and not an act by a depressed suicidal teenager with mental issues.

I think what I want to say is that if you suddenly cross the mental border between depression and "I want to kill everyone", I think it is more probable that you grab a gun or knife and start going postal than sit down and make bombs that actually work.

[bullet08]

I just say that there is a difference between planning and executing a bombing (which involves buying explosives, placing them and firing them off) and going out shooting or knifing people. If you are 23 and depressed I think it is quite easier to just go out and shoot people in frustration than placing bombs.
I don't know about the school incident you talk about, but correct me if I am wrong when I recall that the Oklahoma bombing was a political bombing (terrorism) and not an act by a depressed suicidal teenager with mental issues.

I think what I want to say is that if you suddenly cross the mental border between depression and "I want to kill everyone", I think it is more probable that you grab a gun or knife and start going postal than sit down and make bombs that actually work.

i do agree with you.. if someone just went postal as in spur of the moment thing, yes gun is easier. knife even better. that makes thing much more personal and up close and might prove satisfactory for what ever mental fantasy they have. but this kid bought his gun a month before the incident. and he took video tape of himself and mailed it to NBC. i don't think it was last minute decision to go kill as many as he can before blowing his brains out.

anyway.. i'm just being pointless and wasting everyone's time. just feel crappy about this whole thing. i have no clue what pushed this kid over the line of being just a nutcase to being a mass murderer. as a parent of two young boys... things like this makes me wonder if i'm doing right things for my boys. no kendo or any violent activity for my boys until they reach 30.

pete

[Shazzanzzz]

Please don't call it a massacre, for some reason, i really take offense to that. Maybe I shouldn't. But i just really dislike the use of that word right now.
I think the words of Prof Giovanni sums up our feeling the best, all those damn politicians spoke before her served us no puropose in my opinion.


We are Virginia Tech.

We are sad today, and we will be sad for quite a while. We are not moving on, we are embracing our mourning.

We are Virginia Tech.

We are strong enough to stand tall tearlessly, we are brave enough to bend to cry, and we are sad enough to know that we must laugh again.

We are Virginia Tech.

We do not understand this tragedy. We know we did nothing to deserve it, but neither does a child in Africa dying of AIDS, neither do the invisible children walking the night away to avoid being captured by the rogue army, neither does the baby elephant watching his community being devastated for ivory, neither does the Mexican child looking for fresh water, neither does the Appalachian infant killed in the middle of the night in his crib in the home his father built with his own hands being run over by a boulder because the land was destabilized. No one deserves a tragedy.

We are Virginia Tech.

The Hokie Nation embraces our own and reaches out with open heart and hands to those who offer their hearts and minds. We are strong, and brave, and innocent, and unafraid. We are better than we think and not quite what we want to be. We are alive to the imaginations and the possibilities. We will continue to invent the future through our blood and tears and through all our sadness.

We are the Hokies.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We are Virginia Tech.

[Ignatz]

... things like this makes me wonder if i'm doing right things for my boys. no kendo or any violent activity for my boys until they reach 30.

pete
Not sure that is the answer either Pete. I think it is important to be a Dad, be there, be interested, be a role model, maybe work less and spend more quality time together (but, of course, know when to stay away while they are raging with hormones).
Raising kids is difficult, there is no operators manual and most of the pop psychology is junk. My kid is going on 34, no major felony convictions;) , isn't in prison, not addicted to drugs, graduated top of his class in college after getting kicked out of high school (apple doesn't fall too far from the tree:dead: ), good job. Whew.

[Manuka]

I have 2 in college, and 1 in high school.
I am terrified every time they are out driving on the road.

My condolences for the families concerned but also for all the other families who have lost loved ones this year, and especially for those where their loved one is left crippled and broken as a result of an auto accident.
Or the loved one was the principal earner of the family, who are now left in poverty, whose children will probably never get to college.

I used to have a highway commute to work, and every week I would see someone's mommy or daddy who was not coming home tonight, or any night.
I am also a first Aider and CPR, and have been the first responder on multiple occasions. Do we see any legislation to put goverors in cars? to limit the size of SUV's, to move heavy cargo from long distance trucks to trains? nope, not popular to talk about that.

[Kyung]

I have 2 in college, and 1 in high school.
I am terrified every time they are out driving on the road.

My condolences for the families concerned but also for all the other families who have lost loved ones this year, and especially for those where their loved one is left crippled and broken as a result of an auto accident.
Or the loved one was the principal earner of the family, who are now left in poverty, whose children will probably never get to college.

I used to have a highway commute to work, and every week I would see someone's mommy or daddy who was not coming home tonight, or any night.
I am also a first Aider and CPR, and have been the first responder on multiple occasions. Do we see any legislation to put goverors in cars? to limit the size of SUV's, to move heavy cargo from long distance trucks to trains? nope, not popular to talk about that.

I have a long commute right now and it's really amazing to see how people drive. I like to do up to 10 above the limit which I think is reasonable. And I like to keep a good distance from the car in front.
But people cant stand it. they need to do 20 above the limit and they have to fill the gap if someone's driving safely. And you're not doing 10 more than what they should be doing then they tailgate you like you're doing 30 below limit. I do not enjoy driving because I do not driving in among bad drivers. They let anyone get a license. The driving exam is done in 1 day, maybe not more than 20 minutes. It's a wonder there aren't more accidents on the road

[Sparv]

I have a long commute right now and it's really amazing to see how people drive. I like to do up to 10 above the limit

10 km/h or 10 mph ? (10 mph= 16.09 km/h)

[kartoffelngeist]

I have a long commute right now and it's really amazing to see how people drive. I like to do up to 10 above the limit which I think is reasonable. And I like to keep a good distance from the car in front.
But people cant stand it. they need to do 20 above the limit and they have to fill the gap if someone's driving safely. And you're not doing 10 more than what they should be doing then they tailgate you like you're doing 30 below limit. I do not enjoy driving because I do not driving in among bad drivers. They let anyone get a license. The driving exam is done in 1 day, maybe not more than 20 minutes. It's a wonder there aren't more accidents on the road

Do you realise what you're saying? It's ok for you to break the law, but not other people, because you're deciding what's reasonable despite being illegal.
That's a bit like saying, when I rob banks, I like to take no more than £5000, which I think is reasonable.

Sorry, little pet annoyance of mine...

[Paikea]

i have no clue what pushed this kid over the line of being just a nutcase to being a mass murderer. as a parent of two young boys... things like this makes me wonder if i'm doing right things for my boys. no kendo or any violent activity for my boys until they reach 30.
Pete, kendo isn't violence - among other things, it's teaching your kids to understand and control the violent part that exists in all of us.

Is it just me, or do the videos of this guy look very much like he's spent too much time in front of Grand Theft Auto games and Fast and Furious movies? To me, the problem isn't so much the availability of guns as it is the desensitization of kids to violence.

Jakob, I've always respected what you have to say, but isn't there something inherently wrong if kids needs to carry bombs onto trains to kill themselves and take as many of their own innocent citizens with them as possible? What kind of society is that?

Ignatz is right, this "my country is better..." stuff is just crap.

[ScottUK]

Bloody hell. I have only just heard about this - no English-language news coverage over here.

My thoughts go out to the families of those involved.

[Decado]

Bloody hell. I have only just heard about this - no English-language news coverage over here.

My thoughts go out to the families of those involved.

I'm with Scott here. It was a real shock when we heard the news here and still continues to shock as the facts and the video the guy did come out.

[Decado]

Ignatz is right, this "my country is better..." stuff is just crap.

I couldn't agree more. Anyone who says things like that at a time like this hasn't really thought it through.

[Paikea]

Is it just me, or do the videos of this guy look very much like he's spent too much time in front of Grand Theft Auto games and Fast and Furious movies? Looks like it was Oldboy (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261563,00.html).

[Ignatz]

Looks like it was Oldboy (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261563,00.html).

My son gave me a copy of that. Bizarre.

[Thunder]

My heart goes out to the families and loved ones of the lost, it truly is a massive loss and will forever be etched into America.

This morning 200 civilians died from a car bombs in Iraq, as an American we tend to forget that the pain we feel today about VT has unequalled parallels in other parts of the world.

Maybe this will wake America up-- Maybe we can finally "feel" some of the pain that others humans have been going through for four years under our watch.

I don't intend to twist this post away from VT-- but their are parallels to be drawn in the respect to the Suffering and infliction of violence.

I think its a betrayal to the victims to show a single photo or video from this madman. I wish our media would come up with a "gentleman's agreement" that if this type of event were to ever happen again, that absolutely no air-time, ink or video be displayed that was directly connected to the madman. Let the police, FBI and psychologists have at it...but it should not be public material.

If anything this "madman media packet" will just encourage the next psycho to out do him with a bigger event...more media coverage. Our mass media should be ashamed.

[Kenzan]

Maybe this will wake America up-- Maybe we can finally "feel" some of the pain that others humans have been going through for four years under our watch.


Could you clarify what you mean by this statement please?

[Washington]

You don't think there's something inherently wrong if kids needs to carry guns to protect themselves whilst in school? What kind of society is that?.

Sure there is something wrong with it, didn't say there isn't, and that is pretty messed up. But that is the society I live in. I think on the few times I myself have been a victim of violent crime and yaknow what? I didn't have a firearm on me at the time. Coincidence? I think not.

You'll get more jail time here for spanking your kid after he set fire to the cat for the third time this week than you will for shooting someone.

Not sure what the big deal is. We used to take our guns to school and we checked them into the office before school and got them back after school and we never shot anyone we'll admit to.

[Bokushingu]

the fact that he put a question mark for his name says that he was lost a long time ago...maybe around the middle school years.

[Thunder]

Could you clarify what you mean by this statement please?

I know my statement was going to rustle feathers-- but a human life is a human life, we all have parents, children, bothers and sisters ---

It is my opinion that Americans ignore the hurt and pain of other countries-- Darfur, Iraq etc...we don't connect ourselves to their pain...but when an event like Columbine and Conifer, and VT happens we react in a national way.

We seem to only concern ourselves with injustice when it occurs on our soil, but not in other countries. 60-100 thousand people have died in a Genocide in Darfur....

The public doesn't react to the death tolls in Iraq that top the VT massacre almost on a daily basis....Imagine if VT happened everyday for the past 4 years....that is Iraq.

There is an inequity in the world... Where is the outrage? Where are the candlelight vigils for those innocent lives? A life here is not more important than a death anywhere else, yet that is the impression the world is left with. That americans value their life above all others.

[KhawMengLee]

I know my statement was going to rustle feathers-- but a human life is a human life, we all have parents, children, bothers and sisters ---

It is my opinion that Americans ignore the hurt and pain of other countries-- Darfur, Iraq etc...we don't connect ourselves to their pain...but when an event like Columbine and Conifer, and VT happens we react in a national way.

We seem to only concern ourselves with injustice when it occurs on our soil, but not in other countries. 60-100 thousand people have died in a Genocide in Darfur....

The public doesn't react to the death tolls in Iraq that top the VT massacre almost on a daily basis....Imagine if VT happened everyday for the past 4 years....that is Iraq.

There is an inequity in the world... Where is the outrage? Where are the candlelight vigils for those innocent lives? A life here is not more important than a death anywhere else, yet that is the impression the world is left with. That americans value their life above all others.


1 death is a tragedy. 1 million deaths is a statistic.

I don't think people can or want to fathom such a number unless they are forced to. eg. V.Tech

[Thunder]

1 death is a tragedy. 1 million deaths is a statistic.

Isn't that a quote from Stalin?

[Washington]

I think it's " a million deaths is a statistic, one man's death is a tragedy " but close enough

[KhawMengLee]

Isn't that a quote from Stalin?

Naw, do I look like a pinko bloody commie?;)

[The great I AM]

There is an inequity in the world... Where is the outrage? Where are the candlelight vigils for those innocent lives? A life here is not more important than a death anywhere else, yet that is the impression the world is left with. That americans value their life above all others.Dude, you've got to remember that grief is always more real when its closer to home.

If someone you know dies, you would be more saddened and struck by it than if someone I know dies and I told you. Sure you would offer condolences, but I think that would be about it. So in the same note, the american people may express regret and condolence for Iraq or darfur or whatever, but its not home, and therefore not as personal.

[bullet08]

I know my statement was going to rustle feathers-- but a human life is a human life, we all have parents, children, bothers and sisters ---

It is my opinion that Americans ignore the hurt and pain of other countries-- Darfur, Iraq etc...we don't connect ourselves to their pain...but when an event like Columbine and Conifer, and VT happens we react in a national way.

We seem to only concern ourselves with injustice when it occurs on our soil, but not in other countries. 60-100 thousand people have died in a Genocide in Darfur....

The public doesn't react to the death tolls in Iraq that top the VT massacre almost on a daily basis....Imagine if VT happened everyday for the past 4 years....that is Iraq.

There is an inequity in the world... Where is the outrage? Where are the candlelight vigils for those innocent lives? A life here is not more important than a death anywhere else, yet that is the impression the world is left with. That americans value their life above all others.

let me guess, you go around hugging trees at night?

pete

[KhawMengLee]

let me guess, you go around hugging trees at night?

pete

Pete, I know you'd hug this one:

http://www.ghoststudy.com/new9/paranormal00z23.jpg

[Thunder]

let me guess, you go around hugging trees at night?

pete

Funny...when you bring up the fact there are genocides around the world that America is ignoring, but America sparks a national outrage when 32 people die....someone tries to label you as a hippie.

And no...I don't hug trees at night....only during the day.
I would rather hug a tree than an oil well.

[rainmaker]

Well, I guess in order to prevent VT massacre, we probably have to

1) gun control
2) early warning sign of craziness
3) immigration policy
4) school safety policy

We can argue forever but not getting any answer out of them. We will probably argue and debate for awhile and get tired of such argument and forget about it. We will move on. Even though we don't want to, we will forget this until new craziness happens again. Until then, just give your loved one a big hug. Tell them how much you love them and spend some time to understand them. I think that is a lesson I have learned from VT.

[KhawMengLee]

Its easy to sit here now and say how awful the USA is because of its gun laws, violent TV, Death Games(doom or quake or Halo), satanic muzak(damned elevator music) etc. etc. I am in particular awe at how some people seem to be sitting on a rather high moral horse saying how 'shocked' they are at the 'what kind of society?' the USA has.

But unless you can claim that there is NO violent murders/crime in your country, its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The difference between a psycho in say, Australia and the USA is opportunity...whether one person or thirty die its still a death. Its still life that is being destroyed. What kind of argument is it to say "Oh, the murderer in my country isn't so bad, he only managed to kill one person! Look at the USA he killed 30!" I mean, try saying that to the victim's family, "Look I know its tragic but at least with our strict gun laws he only killed one person with that knife."

All this talk about gun control, immigration, psychological testing etc is only trying to contain the problem. It is not solving or preventing the problem from happening.

Take away all the guns and you still have the psychos.

The key here is stopping what makes these people into nutjobs. Things like sexual, psychological abuse or bullying etc or poverty etc

I may not know the answer but I know just banning guns is definately not the solution.

[Paikea]

So in the same note, the american people may express regret and condolence for Iraq or darfur or whatever, but its not home, and therefore not as personal.That, and exactly what should we do? Intervene? Send in the Marines to keep the peace? Dump millions of dollars into a corrupt situation in the naive hope that some of it might make it to the people who need it?

Been there, done that. Saw the guys who died trying get dragged through the dirt on TV. Next?

[Sparv]

I mean, try saying that to the victim's family, "Look I know its tragic but at least with our strict gun laws he only killed one person with that knife."

And then say to the twenty nine others: "with a light gun legislation (it was known that the guy was crazy more than a year before) he wouldn't have killed your son/brother/friend/etc"

Not a definitive solution but a painless mesure.
The knives are banned on airplanes. Why not making gun possession a little harder?

[Ignatz]

Please put your opinions about the US laws on a different thread.

[KhawMengLee]

Why not making gun possession a little harder?

Because I don't think that will solve the killings. Sure it will drop the body count but will it stop it completely?

Look at Switzerland, one of the highest gun counts per capita but relatively low gun crime. It shows that its not the guns that are the problem but rather the human element.

I'm not hot on the idea of having easy access to firearms but I feel that in cases like this people blame guns like a proverbial boogeyman and fail to see the true cause of the shootings.

[h2o]

Look at Switzerland, one of the highest gun counts per capita but relatively low gun crime. It shows that its not the guns that are the problem but rather the human element.From what I read on Wikipedia, carrying a gun for self defence is not permitted and gun laws are still a lot harder than in the US. But sure, number of guns per person and number of gun crimes are of course not directly linked since there are obviously a lot of people who own guns for hunting and such. I think what is more interesting is how many people own a gun to protect themselves.


I'm not hot on the idea of having easy access to firearms but I feel that in cases like this people blame guns like a proverbial boogeyman and fail to see the true cause of the shootings.I don't think anyone has proposed that it is a universal solution. But it might be a good way to reduce the damage when it happens.

By the way, which other countries except the US allow people to carry handguns for protection?

[Sparv]

In some american schools, all the cooking is arachid-free, in case of allergic reactions. People have trouble in airports for leaving their bags for two minutes (like when they go to toilets). Sean Bell (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/sean_bell/index.html) is killed after cops shot 50 bullets at him.
From my point of view (which is far away from the event), it looks like if the USA where totally mad about over-security.

Then there is 33 people getting killed by only one person, and many people defend the laws about gun carrying.

I just do not understand. Does somebody has a clue ?

[Ignatz]

. . .Does somebody has a clue ?

Obviously not you.

[KhawMengLee]

People have trouble in airports for leaving their bags for two minutes (like when they go to toilets).

You'll get the same reaction at Heathrow today. Why? Because of the trouble they used to have with the IRA. That was decades ago but the scars are still there.

911 was less than 6 years ago...

[Sparv]

Obviously not you.

:mad: That's why I ask. It is really a question. Might you help me to fill the cultural gap?

KhawMengLee I should have said that it is often justified IMO. It is sometime a little too much, but what interrested me is the contrast between the reactions to the events.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Could we please nip the gun control "debate" in the bud? It's like abortion - nobody is going to convince anybody else, it will all end up just being a lot of cyber-yelling.

[Kyung]

Do you realise what you're saying? It's ok for you to break the law, but not other people, because you're deciding what's reasonable despite being illegal.
That's a bit like saying, when I rob banks, I like to take no more than £5000, which I think is reasonable.

Sorry, little pet annoyance of mine...

Yeah I realize that. I am still breaking the law, but I still believe on the degree of offense. There is a difference in being caught at driving 10 above limit and driving at 30 above limit. And I based my judgement on this.
If you would look at the other speedhungry driver in my perspective, it's their perogative if they want to drive way over the speed limit. I wouldn't care as long as they don't tail gate me or cut my safety distance. Safety distance isn't a big issue though unless if the space isn't really tight. But tailgating me to pressure me to go faster because of his selfish needs is something I am not very fond of. And as far as I'm concerned, I am already doing above speedlimit and breaking the lawwww and I am not obligated to go any faster if I don't want to and I don't see the point in going to other lanes because like I said, I am already going above the limit. There's no Autobahn here
That in turn is my pet peeve


And for Sparv, i meant miles per hour.

[Lone Kitten]

Could we please nip the gun control "debate" in the bud? It's like abortion - nobody is going to convince anybody else, it will all end up just being a lot of cyber-yelling.

[snip gun control related crap - I wasn't kidding - Neil]

My heart goes out to all those at Virginia Tech - prayers are with you.

[Kyung]

All this talk about gun control reminds me of the Family Guy episode of 'Right to Bear Arms' where founding fathers were actually referring to the animal Bear's Arms. lol
Honestly Sparv, I don't know. Guns are something some people support and some people don't. It maybe argued that guns don't kill people but people who hold the gun do. Like Neil said it comes down to just barks from both sides.
And America is obsessed about cleanliness. Asceptic environment and sanitizers. I think it maybe getting a bit out of control. Some even think the high number of people who have allergies is due to the isolated environment in which babies are born.

[Lone Kitten]

And America is obsessed about cleanliness. Asceptic environment and sanitizers. I think it maybe getting a bit out of control. Some even think the high number of people who have allergies is due to the isolated environment in which babies are born.

not just the US, the Uk and a heck of a lot of europe now! When I was a kid i fell out of trees, sliced myself up on a number of sharp objects, fell down stairs, was beaten up by my siblings, scraped my knees and generally got hurt, dirty and exposed to germs. My young cousin does all this at home, because my uncle is a sensible man who thinks that it'll do him no harm, but at his nursery school he's put into such a sanitised environment that i'm sure it's doing him harm. When kids aren't allowed teddy bears because they can spread germs things are VERY wrong!

[Ignatz]

Here is a lesson that I have learned over the past 20 years of practicing law:

You have an individual who has a position (let's call it "gun control"). This person firmly believes in the intellectual and moral superiority of his position. He says: "Golly gee,I just don't understand your position", when in fact he does, he simply disagreees. His tactic is to get an answer his question so that he can sit back and "plink" away at the other fellow's arguments. He thinks that not only is his argument intellectually superior but, because he is convinced that the other guy is stupid, he personally is intellectually superior in fact.

Here is where it goes wrong. The "Golly gee I don't understand" thing is false. Well, maybe not false, but he believes it to be false and knowingly presents it as the truth.

So much for the moral superiority of the position.

Since his "intellectual superiority" is premised both upon the "moral rightiousness" of his argument and upon the abject stupidity of the other guy, we can see that neither he nor his argument have any intellectual superiority whatsoever.

From the Book of Ignatz Chapter 21 Verse 12
And I say unto you, if you don't open your mouth you will not have to worry about taking the bait.

[Dervish]

As I said in the other Virginia Tech thread, my thoughts and prayers go to the victims, their families, and the grieving survivors.

Perhaps a new thread should be made just for discussing the gun control issues.

In the meantime, consider that a new theory is being discussed; dry cleaning chemicals that Cho was possibly exposed to;

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=24680

Whatever theory of influence we have, I think psychology is a science in relative infancy, so perhaps it cannot properly diagnose even close to all the major problems of people.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Perhaps a new thread should be made just for discussing the gun control issues.No. There are plenty of other venues for that.

[kendokamax]

No. There are plenty of other venues for that.

Why not? What's wrong with debating problems like that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why not? What's wrong with debating problems like that.There's never any debate. There's a lot of yelling, and a lot of statistics thrown here and there, and neither side convinces the other.

[Paikea]

[snip gun control related crap - I wasn't kidding - Neil]Nicely done.

[Washington]

So then we are left with the 2 hour delay and just a crappy email sent out as warning by campus police that from the look of it would have a hard time walking from one end of campus to the other let alone secure an area of it argument to rant about.

That one hasn't generated much responce even though it's been brought up more than once.

A sweeping wave of policy change across the country as one more excuse to jack up the cost of tuition? Like it isn't hard enough to bring your shinai to class as it is.

How about, "WTF is up with 33 candles in memory crap?" 32 victims and 1 physco killer = 33 candles at a memorial? Not 32 candles for 32 victims. 33 All across this sorry country in which everyone is a victim and we should feel sorry about EVERYTHING. And of course.. no candles for those simply wounded by said physco. See for yourself. I heard about it on the radio but had to look it up and see it to believe it.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Virginia+%2233+candles%22&btnG=Google+Search

[Ignatz]

Cops went after the first girl's boyfriend. Not completely unreasonable because we find that generally you will not be murdered by a stranger. Boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife business, partners, friends etc. are much more likely to kill you than a stranger in a random act of violence.

I recall being in the 77th Precint in Brooklyn watching the OJ trial while we were waiting to get fillers for a line-up. They asked one of the cops "When you went to OJ's house, in your mind, was he a suspect?"
The cop says "No".
Everyone in the room starts yelling at the TV, "LIAR".
The husband is ALWAYS a suspect.

Hindsight is great but here you have a 2700 acre campus, what do you do? Declare martial law? Lock down the campus? Bring in the National Guard? (in my day that would have been just as dsngerous)

Any response would have taken two hours. Do we want to increase the size of the campus police? Give them guns? Bunch of guys that couldn't get jobs as real cops (who by the way, generally couldn't get jobs as bag boys in the Piggly Wiggly)

What we have here is the News (TV and Papers) milking the story to keep people watching and reading so that they can sell more ads.

Just saw the first mention of the killer's family. How would you like to work hard all of your life raising your kids and putting them through school so one of them can become a mass murderer?

[kartoffelngeist]

How about, "WTF is up with 33 candles in memory crap?" 32 victims and 1 physco killer = 33 candles at a memorial? Not 32 candles for 32 victims. 33 All across this sorry country in which everyone is a victim and we should feel sorry about EVERYTHING. And of course.. no candles for those simply wounded by said physco. See for yourself. I heard about it on the radio but had to look it up and see it to believe it.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Virginia+%2233+candles%22&btnG=Google+Search

He was a deeply hurt individual who tragically took his own life. He killed other people too, which I obviously wouldn't condone, but I don't believe we can claim the moral superiority to say one person's life is worth more than another's. This counts for the millions of people who die every week of starvation and the like too...

[Lone Kitten]

Nicely done.

Fine, I was just giving my take on things being a brit. I agree that it's not the place to discuss it.

I think, to be honest, everyone (not just here but generally worldwide) should stop dissecting it and let everyone involved grieve and heal in their own way.

[Ignatz]

There's never any debate. There's a lot of yelling, and a lot of statistics thrown here and there, and neither side convinces the other.

Or as Charles Bukowski said, it's like trying to screw a cat in the a$$.

[Sparv]

Sorry for the nearly out-subject post.


...

I am not one of the guys you described here. I asked the same question I asked here:

...
[snip gun talk - Neil]

By the way, I totally agree with your opinion about the police reaction. Irrationnal behaviour is not predictable by nature.

[Paikea]

Fine, I was just giving my take on things being a brit. I agree that it's not the place to discuss it.

I think, to be honest, everyone (not just here but generally worldwide) should stop dissecting it and let everyone involved grieve and heal in their own way.I meant that Neil is being kind (and consistent) in the method used to enforce the topic.

[Manuka]

Most Martial Arts training, including Kendo consists of replacing instinctive reaction with non-instinctive learned responses.

I received military training and the methods were the same, replace instinct with specific learned responses.

According to the news article below (and other articles) the killer took 9 minutes and 170 shots to murder his 30 fellow students in the final scene.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/042607dnnatvatech.24eb404.html

How long is a classroom 30ft ? 10 yards.
Most humans can run 22ft/sec (4 minute mile) for a few yards.
If the students had responded by rushing the gunman how many would he have been able to shoot in the 1.5 seconds it took to reach him?
Perhaps 2, maybe 4.
For comparison US competition shooting has 'rapid fire' shooting 5 shots in 10 seconds, Olympic rapid fire is 5 shots in 4 seconds but only with a anatomically fitted gun shooting .22 short and years of practice.

On the Long Island subway on Dec 7, 1993 it only took 2 passengers to subdue Colin Ferguson. They only rushed him when he stopped to reload.

The instinctive thing is to try and get away.
Probably the correct action would be to throw whatever you had in hand to try and cause an instinctive reaction in him to avoid the thrown object as he was rushed.
Not so good for the 2 or 3 shot, but chances are his aim will be poorer, far fewer will be injured and/or killed, and even those who are shot will have immediate medical attention giving perhaps some chance of survival.

Children are taught what to do in case of fire (stop, drop, and roll) and to prepare a fire escape plan from their house, crawl to stay low, met at neighbors, etc.
Perhaps this could be introduced to classes taught to high schoolers and above such as: ROTC, Hunter safety, and public self-defence classes.

What do others think?

[Hisham]

What i don't understand is how come nobody (knowing that people react differently when facing death, most would freeze i guess) tried to get to him, is there any account of anybody that tried to do so?

I'm quoting myself because i was wondering about the same thing you explained, IMHO your idea would be great, but how would that program be implemented and at what age? I mean training your instincts takes time.

[Washington]

Your born with a survival instinct, you don't learn it. You unlearn it.

[Kenzan]

Perhaps this could be introduced to classes taught to high schoolers and above such as: ROTC, Hunter safety, and public self-defence classes.

What do others think?
[snip gun stuff]

[Manuka]

[snip gun stuff]

[Neil Gendzwill]

And that's a wrap for this thread, I think.