What's your favourite waza? [Archive]

Confound

10th July 2002, 10:26 PM

I had a good laugh at my own expense looking at most of those waza. most of them are waza that aren't even taught at the level in my dojo! hilarious, but comforting at the same time.

it reminds me of how crappy i am (a fact i already know), but at the same time, it's comforting to know that there will always be people far above you, because it means you'll never be at a loss for good training.

c

alexpollijr

10th July 2002, 11:15 PM

Yoko men, yoko men, no matter the side
It's so spiritual

:p

amatsuda

11th July 2002, 04:57 AM

AI-GOTE-MEN
KAESHI DO (Inspired by Naoki Eiga Sensei after watching him at 11WKC)

reicheru

11th July 2002, 08:14 AM

there's nothing like a nice, clean shomen. nothing fancy or complicated, but so satisfying (to do, to watch, to hear) when done well.

mingshi

11th July 2002, 10:13 AM

Hahaha......there's something in the dark side worth considering:

Extra-strong tai-atari, esp against smaller opponent.
Secretly moving forward and forcing your opponent off the court boundaries.
Rolling off your opponent's shinai + killing him/her immediately.
Start cutting from Sonkyo immediately after "Hajime~!"
Attacking from behind/when your opponent turns.
"Accidentally" miss your cuts, landing on upper arm, under arm, thigh, shoulders, ears, etc. (including stepping on their toes)Tsuki, tsuki, tsuki -- Ni/San/Yon+ dan waza in a roll
Annoying kiai which resembles indecent vocabularies in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily Japanese).

*The above list is just a collection of strange tactic. I don't know if anybody would encourage these??

**My personal fav. is gyaku-do. It's unguarded for most of the time (blame the safety reason), and people hardly practice it. Very difficult to score because of the small target as well. Best attack +defence. Strong seme, strong center, and strong te-no-uchi which can make people jump!

Kendoka

11th July 2002, 11:00 AM

Suriage Men, if only I could !

ben

11th July 2002, 11:58 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mingshi
[B]Hahaha......there's something in the dark side worth considering:

Extra-strong tai-atari, esp against smaller opponent.
Secretly moving forward and forcing your opponent off the court boundaries.
Rolling off your opponent's shinai + killing him/her immediately.
Start cutting from Sonkyo immediately after "Hajime~!"
Attacking from behind/when your opponent turns.
"Accidentally" miss your cuts, landing on upper arm, under arm, thigh, shoulders, ears, etc. (including stepping on their toes)Tsuki, tsuki, tsuki -- Ni/San/Yon+ dan waza in a roll
Annoying kiai which resembles indecent vocabularies in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily Japanese).

Hahaha! Nice one Mingshi. But seriously, I've never once used ANY of these techniques.

Although... I have heard that tsuki aimed either at connecting with the (unprotected) throat, or from the side in order to induce a rather nasty neck twisting action, has been an accepted waza in some dojos in days gone by.

And if you lose your shinai, go straight in for koshinage or, from tsubazeriai, tomoenage!

b

KhawMengLee

11th July 2002, 12:35 PM

hmmnn....block opponent's strike, countering with a strong roundhouse kick to the knee, jabbing the shinai hilt into the opponent's face, then executing a men cut to the back of the neck thus, severing the head....ooo...wait...wrong martial art:D

well, actually I like tsuki (to let the opponent know I'm there) finishing with a strong shomen or do.

Annoying kiai which resembles indecent vocabularies in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily Japanese)

Heh, Mingshi, you should hear the obscenities spewing forth in cantonese...lucky the most don't understand it here in Australia.

stuff like Ma Hai, Tiu etc

or the hokkien fav

Kani ne!

shocking!

PS. I've heard of ppl fighting "dirty", eg stabbing the hilt of the shinai into the opponent's chest and it resulting in Ice hockey style brawls(gloves fly off and round come the punches). Can anyone confirm this?

Meng

inner_cent

11th July 2002, 03:37 PM

Old time favourate waza ?

Have to agree with Mingshi. Gyaku do.Seems most of people really un-aware of it. It actually managed to get me out an long Encho before. A good, surprising gyaku-do can stun/surprise someone enough for you to get a clean get away after the surprise attack. Problem, most judges do't give point for this type of Do, and sanshin, not quite sure what is the proper sanshin, for me, just hit and run, before they recover enough to realise my Men is totally exposed.

Another tactic, Do waza and suddenly your shinai either fly to somewhere, or accidentally stucked in opponent's body part, or just dropped on ground... Then quick run like hell around the opponent to confuse him, and quickly turn around and give him a BIG BEAR hug (and mumble that "Sure you wanna hit someone without a shinai ???!!!"). I'm sure you get some applaus arouns somewhere :)

olaf

14th July 2002, 12:56 AM

KhawMengLee: That's very funny about the Cantonese "kiai". There are some Chinese guys at my dojo who I suspect do the same thing. It's a pity my Mandarin fluency doesn't translate to much in the way of Cantonese comprehension...

Though I must say, Cantonese seems to be a very good language to use in altercations, fights and the like... rather appropriate for Kendo actually! Have you ever just watched two Cantonese speakers converse? You'd think they were trying to resolve (well, exacerbate, rather) some family vendetta.

alexpollijr

14th July 2002, 01:20 AM

Isn't cantonese that region of China where they speak something that remembers portuguese?

Jes' wondering

cklin

14th July 2002, 01:25 AM

You're thinking of Macau, which used to be a Portuguese colony. But they speak Cantonese there as well.

mingshi

14th July 2002, 03:29 AM

Canton is that southern province of mainland China, including the regions of Hong Kong and Macau. Cantonese is the native dialect spoken over there.

I haven't seriously fought against Cantonese... But I would say that, people who do not know the Japanese language(or not fluent) have the tendency to make up weird Kiai :eek:

a short list of weird Kiai which I've heard of (and therefore very much distracted) include:
"Saaaayuuuui~!"
"Glob Glob~!"
"Aaaaaaasss~!!"
"Uso Uso!!" (japanese of "lying")
etc.
But it's not up to me to complain...

olaf

14th July 2002, 03:50 AM

Well, in Cantonese or otherwise, I think the process of experimenting with kiai until you've developed your own "signature" kiai is quite an interesting one. It really doesn't matter if the person is fluent in Japanese...they go through the phases of

1. random grunts and shouts
2. imitating the kiai of prominent people in the dojo
3. developing/refining their own distinct kiai

Somewhere between the first phase and the second, people who know another language other than Japanese tend to resort to kiai involving words or phrases in that language. Sometimes these are genuinely random words that come naturally; other times, as in the case of the Cantonese guys someone spoke of earlier, it's just the fun of yelling and mocking someone else in a language they don't understand :)

KhawMengLee

14th July 2002, 04:59 AM

Though I must say, Cantonese seems to be a very good language to use in altercations, fights and the like... rather appropriate for Kendo actually! Have you ever just watched two Cantonese speakers converse? by Olaf

Well, they were probably from Hong Kong (no offence to any Honkies). The way Honkies speak cantonese is different from Malaysians. Sorta more boisterous...so yes it looks violent but no they are just talking...heh.

I was in Hong Kong with some mates and we were at this coffee shop checking out the waitress (really cute). We called her over to order some drinks and she was like "meeyasi?!?". It was like "what would you like?" but the tone sounded like "what the f*ck do you want?!" Yes, we were quite taken aback but after talking to her a bit, we found she was cool. Now her dad was a different story...

strange kiai?

hmnnn...one of the sensei's here in Malaysia makes this

Pok! Pok! noise by blowing bubbles like a fish (hard to describe) nevertheless it is quite funny and distracting...

I just go...Hoooaaaaaarrrrraaaa!

but once when I got hit on the elbow...Maa Chow H*i!

One of my chinese mate burst out laughing...oops

Meng

kendokamax

15th July 2002, 07:36 AM

My favorite waza is..........

Men uchi

I love the sound of the shinai hiting the men of my oponent.

dr_evil

15th July 2002, 04:04 PM

men kaeshi do for sure

durrell4

18th July 2002, 03:34 AM

I realy enjoy a good men strike just as someone is about to strike mne.

Given the number of "advanced beginners" I run into a simple nidan waza works wonders.

:D

Hongsermeier

18th July 2002, 04:03 AM

Tsuki-Men, Can't wait to be shodan so I can use it.

ben

18th July 2002, 08:19 AM

durrell4: Pardon my ignorance, but what's the "ii" in "ii-kote-men"?

b

alexpollijr

18th July 2002, 09:31 AM

Ben

Just a guess, but i think the "ii" means "II" or "2", which in turn could mean NIdan waza kote-men, which would aa quite orthodox choice eh? :D

ben

18th July 2002, 09:53 AM

Oh

I thought it meant "ii" as in "nice", e.g. "ii kote, desu ne!"

:P
b

durrell4

19th July 2002, 03:36 AM

sorry for the romage fo-paw, i-kote-men

opponent hits kote, you hit kote at the same time and then a finishing men. sorry :(

amatsuda

19th July 2002, 06:04 AM

It's Ai-Gote-Men...

Ai is the same character used for "Ai-uchi" Simultaneous hit/strike.

You can see an example of this waza by going to KN Kim Fan Site at http://kumdo.naweb.cc/profile/main.htm and click on video M13.

amatsuda

durrell4

19th July 2002, 07:06 AM

Ai not ii, never the less it is my favorite

Shinyaxyz

23rd July 2002, 07:05 AM

I was wondering if anybody from this thread knows how to do Kiriotoshi men.

Maybe because of my slow men, or weak center, my teacher always hit me with this kiriotoshi/uchiotoshi technique. I have no idea how to do against it. If I figure out the secret of this technique, I can use the same technique, I guess, "ai-kiriotoshi (?)"

Well, it's not my favorite, but I can only hit men. My kote is bad, my do is bad..... well, I practice to hit tsuki recently, though.

Oh, by the way, when I practice against Mr. Hirata from Saitama Police dept. at some university kendo club's summer camp in Japan, he hit me very good suriage-men, a couple of times. I though my shinai reached out his men, almost a inch away, he blocked, or slided-up my shinai with his shinai's shinogi, and hit my men clearly. I've never been hit suriage-men at such a last moment in my kendo history.

I thought we usually use the kensen part of shinai crossing opponent's tsubamoto (the part nearby tsuba) to do suriage-technique. My teacher taught me so at least. But, what he did was totally against the way. Of course, he is a very good player, so it's not that difficult for him to hit me.... but still don't understand its process.

Any idea?

ben

23rd July 2002, 07:32 AM

Shinyaxyz: You must be holding centre a little for your sensei to need kiriotoshi. Maybe you express no seme against him. This is when it is most effective, when your opponent is "stalled" in a dead moment. Also if you sense they have a weak tenouchi it's very effective. Perhaps you need to attack more, not just physically but mentally.

As for such fast suriage-waza, hmmm... I wish I could understand as well. I think you should ask Hirata-sensei... :)

b

Shinyaxyz

23rd July 2002, 08:15 AM

So, the secret is seme, right?

Yeah, I'm now working on it. The best way of overcoming Kiriotoshi is seme in terms of physical and psychological. Well, both are difficult.

I read a book called "Hyakkai geiko" written by Mr. Chutaro Ogawa. It was really really good. In this book, he explained how to attack Mochida sensei. He said he tries to hit men "zakkuri (this is the way how he describe his technique)" as cut opponent's men into two, like hitting tsuki. My teacher told me the similar way.... Hit from top (uekara ute!!).

I know I shouldn't rely on thinking too much. First practice, then consider....

Also, as mentioned above, my tenouchi seems too weak. Well, this is also very difficult to practice too.

Actually, I try to hit men a little bit bigger than I used to do. We have to cut the men, right? With super small sashi-men, it's almost impossible to cut men. Do you think the size of striking matters in this case? If I strike smaller, is it gonna be more difficult for him to hit kiriotoshi against me?

One more question, what is the best timing of hitting these kiriotoshi? I want to know when he's trying to hit, if possible.

mingshi

23rd July 2002, 09:07 AM

Heyhey...
Kiriotoshi is different from Uchiotoshi.
In Kanji, Kiri=cut, Uchi=strike/hit, Otoshi=down/drop/fall.
And they're not just terms... They are used in different occations:
Kiriotoshi is the most important techique in Itto-ryu Kenjutsu. It involves in almost every kata in Itto-ryu.
The term Uchiotoshi is used to call that waza in Kendo.

Sorry to be so critical about the wordings.

ben

23rd July 2002, 09:27 AM

Mingshi, I know the etymology you mention but I think the "kiri-otoshi/uchi-otoshi" distinction is a bit precious. I have also heard it called "harai-otoshi". IMHO if thinking of it as "kiri" rather than "uchi" gives you a better feeling of how the technique should be done, then "kiri" it is.

As for Shinyaxyz's question, it's hard because I think you're talking about a high level of technique that is really above my own, but *in principle* it is better to attempt a slightly larger men sutemi-style, than to use sashi-men in anticipation of your opponent's attack. In the latter case, you are already being controlled by your opponent even before you attempt the waza.

*sigh* I wish I could read Japanese...

:)
b

ben

23rd July 2002, 09:27 AM

ben

23rd July 2002, 09:30 AM

oops! sorry for the double post. :0

b

ben

23rd July 2002, 10:06 AM

Shinya: thinking about your question, it seems you are talking about kiri-otoshi as oji-waza. My first reply was assuming you meant it as shikake-waza, which is when it is effective against an opponent who has "stalled" or who has weak seme. My mistake. I think kiri-otoshi as oji-waza is a very advanced technique. I could only achieve against someone much slower than me. In shiai I can only achieve harai-men as oji-waza, and even then my men-uchi is really too small and light to score effectively.

b

Shinyaxyz

24th July 2002, 03:08 AM

Ben and Mingshi>

Thank you very much for very usuful advices.

First of all, the meaning of Kiriotoshi and Uchiotoshi are different, I think. But, they are often mixed as the same technique in kendo.

I saw two eighth dan teachers are demonstrating Onoha Ittoryu Kata when I attended at summer camp in Japan. It was really really long and consisted of so many kiriotoshi techniques, but really amazing.

I heard Jikishinkage-ryu also has kata of kiriotoshi. They start practicing with bokuto, then Habiki, or swords w/o sharp edge (like iaito), then only for the highest, they use shinken or real swords (well, habiki is also real, though). This is from one of my teachers about the practice of his teachers. He said he was really scared with sweat in his hands when he was watching it.

I don't know how I should do, but from practice I found out it's really easy for him to do kiriotoshi if I hit small. But, if I hit too big, it is too slow. Well, eventually, we cannot cut with too small strike like sashi-men, right? The technique itself is called "Kiri = cut" otoshi.

I think there is a instance when we can hit do kiriotoshi as long as we can keep the center aginst seme.

How about the difference between kiriotoshi and suriage? These techniques are fundamentally different even though similar.

Also, I have another problem....... risho zuki, which is a tsuki against men. I think it's different from mukae-zuki which are performed by bad teachers. I think we are also required strong center and seme. Only a few times, I could successfully hit my teacher's men against this tsuki. It was only when I felt really getting center and "men ni noru," or, how to translate..... feeling like my body was covering over my teacher's men. I cannot do it conciously..... this is the difficult part. But, when is the timing of this technique? I also have no idea how he hits me tsuki over my men.

olaf

24th July 2002, 03:12 AM

Wow fellas - I'm really amazed at all the wonderful waza, tips, and strategies mentioned here... possible thought: are we getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

Once again, I don't mean to underestimate anyone's level of kendo here, but shouldn't this post be renamed to

"what's your favorite waza that you can actually do?!"

olaf

24th July 2002, 03:13 AM

As you can probably tell, I still have trouble hitting men correctly...

alexpollijr

24th July 2002, 03:33 AM

Oh, surely there are many waza that many of us can't apply correctly.

If you check the answers of most yudansha in this forum you'll see they frequently answered 'shomen' or 'men kaeshi do' as their favorites, and these two were by far the most popular and most sucessfull in this year's Brazilian Championship, maybe together with debana kote.

I myself can't do suriage waza at all with strenght enough to count as a valid point.

PS. Saw lots of gyaku do in the matches, and no one was taken as a valid point. Shinpam guys, go figure. I'm happy, because I can't seem to do gyaku do properly as well

:rolleyes:

Antonin

24th July 2002, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Oh, surely there are many waza that many of us can't apply correctly.

If you check the answers of most yudansha in this forum you'll see they frequently answered 'shomen' or 'men kaeshi do' as their favorites, :rolleyes:

Funny that, because if there were any hachidan in here, i have the feeling they would probably answer the same... in a way, a straight men is the "purest" technique possible. it is also the one i am trying to achieve, but, well, .... nobody's perfect, I suppose... bah... i can still cook a decent cassoulet, though , so not everything is lost :-)
A.

Shinyaxyz

24th July 2002, 10:16 AM

I agree with everyone.

But, I think curiosity is important for everything. That's why I asked everyone, even though it's far beyond my level.

But, my teacher's teacher's words were in my mind, actually.
Luckily I had a chance to talk to him when I got back to Japan this summer. He said the teachers in past used more variable techniques than today's kendo players do. Some of the old teachers still use "katate-" techniques, etc.

BTW, gyaku do is actually one of my favorite techniques as well as men. I think it's a problem a lot of judges cannot see correctly what kind of gyaku-do is ippon. Well, this is what my another teacher told me before, too.

inner_cent

24th July 2002, 11:21 AM

I have to agree to Antonin... Many time, i was bought by various different sensei, all came down with the same conclusion. Men hit is the most basic and effective hit. Once you have proficient in Men hit, hote, and Do hit more or less bevomes derive from there (with some alternation anyway).

I still prefer Men hit most of time. And sudden change of technic after so many Men hit, will tend to surprise your opponent, and put the word "caution" into their mind....

But then, hey, mind/spirit is more important than waza. Maybe our mind is strong enough, we can Zap them with our Psychi power !!!!! (haahaa !! Can't help it, too much Jedi thingy again)

samurai999

26th July 2002, 09:20 AM

Mine's one of these..

debana-kote (lure 'em in and pick'em off)

otoshi-men (omote or ura..)

Hiki-men (fake dou and pop a good one)

There's other cool ones I like to use, but these are my favorites...

I'm working on:

nuki/kaeshi dou (hard stuff)

Tim

stinkyKote

31st July 2002, 06:32 AM

I'd have to say debana kote- good for small short guys like me-
it's also the only one I really have much success with! -

I find it's a fairly easy point to get, the shinpan are often a little more forgiving on the force of the hit and the zanshin as long as you nail the timing - :D

also, after a whole bunch of missied kote, a fake kote followed by a men usually works pretty good-

Ares2907

4th August 2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by ben
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mingshi
[B]Hahaha......there's something in the dark side worth considering:

Extra-strong tai-atari, esp against smaller opponent.
Secretly moving forward and forcing your opponent off the court boundaries.
Rolling off your opponent's shinai + killing him/her immediately.
Start cutting from Sonkyo immediately after "Hajime~!"
Attacking from behind/when your opponent turns.
"Accidentally" miss your cuts, landing on upper arm, under arm, thigh, shoulders, ears, etc. (including stepping on their toes)Tsuki, tsuki, tsuki -- Ni/San/Yon+ dan waza in a roll
Annoying kiai which resembles indecent vocabularies in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily Japanese).

Hahaha! Nice one Mingshi. But seriously, I've never once used ANY of these techniques.

[snip]

Hmm, none of this stuff is likely to win friends in kendo. Anyone I've ever seen to this has been pretty much reviled from that point on. The thing is, the person you try and beat up on may not choose that time to get even with you, they may not at all, but there will probably be countless people watching who will. Even if it's as simple as not giving you those pointers about your kendo that you so obviously and desperately need. Letting you continue into some crappy habits would probably be a more satisfying form of revenge (if less immedate) than ripping of your men and headbutting you with their men-gane.

KhawMengLee

4th August 2002, 04:57 PM

Letting you continue into some crappy habits would probably be a more satisfying form of revenge (if less immedate) than ripping of your men and headbutting you with their men-gane.

Heh Heh Heh...welcome to Kendo aka. Japanese Ice Hockey.

Heh...I got a bruised knuckle(yes, from fighting) and today in training I kept getting hit there. Arrgghhh...I was like, "The KOTE!!! Go for the KOTE!!!!"

Meng

David J

5th August 2002, 01:26 AM

Meng - what you doing fighting?

Ares2907 - I must admit that I felt dismayed when I read that email too... I'm assuming that it was intended mainly for comedy value rather than it being anything people really did....or was it? Do any of you guys fight this way?

<rei>

Dave

KhawMengLee

5th August 2002, 01:03 PM

David J: Long story, basically a buddy was arguing with this other bloke at my Girlfriend's part and I stepped in to cool things off. They both walked away and everything was cool. Later I heard the "other" bloke saying "look the nosey Asian motherf*cker!" I got pretty pissed off so I walked up to him and asked him to watch his mouth.

He then said, "or what c*nt?"

So I headbutted him, kneed him in the groin and punched his face. It worked out really well because he was taller than me so he was the right height for the hits.

The punch was the one that didn't connect properly. So my knuckle felt screwed.

Ah, well.

Meng

Confound

5th August 2002, 04:41 PM

With a temper like that, meng, you need to study more kendou. No woman is worth a fight, I don't care who is saying what or why. As for the racism, hmm.. I have to admit, that would tempt me to punch him, since I hear similar comments (only about gaijin) often enough. I haven't hurt anyone yet, though I've been severely tempted.

c

KhawMengLee

5th August 2002, 06:33 PM

With a temper like that, meng, you need to study more kendou. No woman is worth a fight, I don't care who is saying what or why.

You misunderstand. It wasn't over a girl. It was my girlfriend's and her housemates housewarming. The perp. was arguing with a friend of mine. Basically he (the jerk) was being disrespectful but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just tried to calm the situation down.

But he decided not to take a hint so well, I guess I lost my temper but...

I think he was on his own there, his friends understood he was being a jerk. Which was probably why they didn't lift a finger to help him when he was thrown out.

Ah...I kinda hated it because it was someone else's problem but now I am involved.

Peace(well...erm)

Meng

KENSHIN

6th August 2002, 01:04 AM

my fav would have to be the Hiten-Mitsurugi-Ryu-Kuzu-Ryu-Sen waza...quite hard hard at first but very effective....:D :D

of course i am just joking, mine would have to be kote-men waza, quick and effective... :D A complete difference in comparison to my wonderous Hiten-Mitsurugi-Ryu-Kuzu-Ryu-Sen waza

KENSHIN

6th August 2002, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

You misunderstand. It wasn't over a girl. It was my girlfriend's and her housemates housewarming. The perp. was arguing with a friend of mine. Basically he (the jerk) was being disrespectful but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just tried to calm the situation down.

But he decided not to take a hint so well, I guess I lost my temper but...

I think he was on his own there, his friends understood he was being a jerk. Which was probably why they didn't lift a finger to help him when he was thrown out.

Ah...I kinda hated it because it was someone else's problem but now I am involved.

Peace(well...erm)

Meng

Be warned Meng this behaviour you describe is the path to the dark side.

KhawMengLee

6th August 2002, 01:27 AM

Be warned Meng this behaviour you describe is the path to the dark side.

Path to the dark side?

What...Yorkshire?

heh

Meng

samurai999

6th August 2002, 01:32 AM

Re: Ares2907

Most of the things meng was mentioning isn't really dark side stuff. Some of it is good strategy.

For example, using the ring to your advantage. If you have the guy step out, it is that guys fault for being there in the first place. You should always know to keep an eye out for where you are based on the "X" mark in the center..

Attacking from behind when opponent turns around is another. If the guy turns around too slow, then you stand right there in his face ready to strike. If he blocks it, kudos!!.. If he doesn't, well it is his fault for not being ready...

My $0.02,

Tim

stakenaka

6th August 2002, 05:39 AM

Hmm... doesn't seem too dark. You showed some restraint, and did not create the dillema (i.e., the "Or what' comment from the other party more or less dictated that outcome would not be a diplomatic one.).

However, the punch to the face was a little over the top, since you could have done some serious damage with the ring.
Next time, go for the belly. Not as effective, but considering that you immobilized him with the first two hits, two or three hits should make sure that he stays that way. Or a leg sweep. Or pushing him into a wall. The possibilities are endless. :)

That is zanshin (which you displayed): making sure you make a good attack and that the opponent is disabled and unable to attack you.

KhawMengLee

6th August 2002, 06:11 AM

However, the punch to the face was a little over the top, since you could have done some serious damage with the ring.

Hey, how did you know I wear rings?

Well, I kinda went for the punch because I wanted to make sure he was really gonna stay down. A few of my mates box and do Muay Thai and I've seen fighters take huge amounts of punishment and still stand. Even a kick in the balls might not work, actually would probably make them madder. A lot of people throw a punch, connect well, and think that's it. But in real life, it takes a bit more to put someone down.

The proper finish (from Muay Thai)would have been an elbow instead of a punch but that would be too dangerous. Once again, its bad karma to fight and my bruised knuckle is the payback.

Actually the guy that took the Sunday training had a great waza. He first started with a shomen cut, to which I blocked. He then went for my raised kote, then hidari men, then kote again, then shomen. Bugger, he was so fast and I of course played right into it. High block (exposing kote), then moved to protect kote (and got hit by the hidari men) went to block men (got hit in the kote again), then went back to kote block and got nailed by the shomen...sigh

It was a great speed combo though...I liked it!

Meng

stakenaka

6th August 2002, 06:33 AM

You (or someone) mentioned it in one of the previous posts.
Makes sense. The elbow could have cause some serious damage.

JSchmidt

6th August 2002, 07:12 AM

Assualt isnt cool. It's stupid. To brag about it is even worse.

Confound

6th August 2002, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

You misunderstand.
Meng

I definately did misunderstand, Meng, and from the sounds of it, you were in the right. Hopefully that knuckle gets better soon.

c

KhawMengLee

6th August 2002, 03:34 PM

Assualt isnt cool. It's stupid. To brag about it is even worse.

True.

I think my "explaining" has moved into the realms of bragging.
Sorry:(

Meng

Confound

6th August 2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Assualt isnt cool. It's stupid. To brag about it is even worse.

That's my fault. I misunderstood the situation, and Meng was defending himself by explaining it to me. He wasn't bragging, just trying to explain a situation. I also agree that assault isn't cool, but from the sounds of things, the other fellow was a loser who really wasn't going to let anyone resolve the problem quietly or easily.

c

KENSHIN

7th August 2002, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Confound

That's my fault.
c

When is it never...:D :D :D

Confound

7th August 2002, 06:25 AM

I have broad shoulders. I'll take reponsbility for the irresponsible..
c

Steve

8th August 2002, 06:20 AM

I'll say my favorite waza has to be Tsuki. Not that I'm really good at it, i've only managed to get a good hit with it (both katate and morote) as many times as i have fingers or so.

Why do i like it? Tsuki (according to some sensei, and i happen to agree with this) forms the basis of all your other attacks. You need strong chudan, and a good control of centre to execute it.

Its also both an offensive and defensive waza simultaneously.

But, don't lose sight of Kendo fundamentals; Men is the most IMPORTANT. here's a bit of daily philosophy to help back me up.

"Begin with Men, End with Men." -unknown kendoka?

"A golden rule is never to use more complex movements than are necessary to achieve the desired result. To hit a worthy opponent with a complex movement is satisfying and shows ones mastery of technique; to hit the same opponent by a simple movement is a sign of greatness."
- Bruce Lee

David J

15th August 2002, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Steve

"A golden rule is never to use more complex movements than are necessary to achieve the desired result. To hit a worthy opponent with a complex movement is satisfying and shows ones mastery of technique; to hit the same opponent by a simple movement is a sign of greatness."
- Bruce Lee

Maybe, but which one is nicer to watch? :D

<rei>

Dave

James

15th August 2002, 08:05 AM

The simple one obviously, as long as you shake your head slowly from side to side afterwards and go 'ooowaaaayyyyeeee"

tetsuoxb

15th August 2002, 09:23 AM

Re: hitting someone from sankyo after hajime (from the previous page)

I dont view that as dark side _at all_. Shimpan says hajime, it means start.... start from sonkyo. I follow their instructions, and I dont think I need to give my opponent time to count the pleats in my hakama while I stand up and give him the clear shot I was going to take. Sliding with suriashi as you get up from sonkyo and hitting someone with men, AFTER hajime, seems completely legit to me. Ippon shobu.

alexpollijr

15th August 2002, 10:48 AM

I think you got it wrong. Ming was initially talking about stepping forward from sonkyo, not standing up and then attacking.

This 'jumpy' first strike works again less experienced fighters, i've found out. Against the kote principally. Anyone with two or three years of kendo experience will either brush you off or employ a simple oji against the 'sudden strike'.

KATSUJIN

4th December 2002, 04:18 PM

debana kote
debana men( ura )

Matthew Lagden

4th December 2002, 06:39 PM

Debana Kote - it has that wonderful 'fuck you' feeling - "aha you think you are fast but you are not!"

and in reverse i always feel really humbled when someone does it to me (which is much much much more common.....)

kendowalker

4th December 2002, 10:44 PM

Men kaeshi do !

KATSUJIN

5th December 2002, 11:21 AM

don't mind me..but i want ask ur opinion in one observation.....
sometimes, certain senseis and students are known to have said that a kote point is a 'cheap point'......because it is so near and so called easy to get....

wat do u think of this comment?

Hagakure

5th December 2002, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by KATSUJIN
don't mind me..but i want ask ur opinion in one observation.....
sometimes, certain senseis and students are known to have said that a kote point is a 'cheap point'......because it is so near and so called easy to get....

wat do u think of this comment?

Did this come from someone just beaten by kote? :)

Fact is, kote is closer. Cheap? I think not. Doing it with proper form and zanshin is far from easy, and doing it without criticism from your sensei is even harder (for begginers anyway.) You will always come accross people who just bang around without form, but there way is alway going to be cheap. If you do it the proper way, it certainly is fair, and anyone who objects is being a spoiled sport.

A waza that continues to interest me is kote-nuki-kote. I haven't had much luck with it, but when done effectively it's really a sight. My sempai do it in sparing amounts, but I still would like to get better at it.

In keiko I work on Tobikomi-do, and I have had much luck with it. Although in a recent tournamert I participated in, I rarely saw the shimpan award it, which surprized me a bit.

Men-suriage-men works well for me, on the rare occasion I manage to pull it off.

But plain sho-men is the original, and still the best.

kendokamax

5th December 2002, 01:11 PM

men uchi is my favorite technique :)
when I can get a men without caring a bit about my own safety, thats when Im the most happy about my kendo. I look for a small oportunity then I go all for it. no better feeling.

For some reason suriage men is a technique I use a lot during shiai and keiko, but I never think about doing it, it comes naturaly...it's weird , cuz I have to think before doing other oji waza like kaeshi techniques or debana techniques. I hope these techniques come natural with time..

AlexM

5th December 2002, 01:18 PM

Kote sucks. That's as eloquently as I could put it. It's the cheapest, weakest, ugliest move in all of kendo. It should be banned I say, banned! Cut off my wrist and I'll still find a way to lop your head off (or rather, split it in two), but who gets the point? The guy who gave me a superficial cut on the knuckles, that's who. Hate kote. A dodgy hit it shall always be.

And yes, I do nothing but lose on kote. Ban kote now!

KATSUJIN

5th December 2002, 01:30 PM

???? wat...u lost only on kote point?????

Nishi

8th December 2002, 04:06 AM

Men uchi, is the golden cut for me. When everything goes quite and you press through your opponents kamae like a fish through the water, and your met with no resistance at all....then.....click....
Ki ken tai no ichi....and you go flying past. At least thats how i imagine it will feel....!!

saki_wooah

8th December 2002, 09:13 AM

I like kote... I mean nice ones! And also hiki-kote. They're very fast and needs little movements (from the shinai).

bukowski

9th December 2002, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by mingshi
Hahaha......there's something in the dark side worth considering:

Extra-strong tai-atari, esp against smaller opponent.
Secretly moving forward and forcing your opponent off the court boundaries.
Rolling off your opponent's shinai + killing him/her immediately.
Start cutting from Sonkyo immediately after "Hajime~!"
Attacking from behind/when your opponent turns.
"Accidentally" miss your cuts, landing on upper arm, under arm, thigh, shoulders, ears, etc. (including stepping on their toes)Tsuki, tsuki, tsuki -- Ni/San/Yon+ dan waza in a roll
Annoying kiai which resembles indecent vocabularies in a foreign language (i.e. not necessarily Japanese).

*The above list is just a collection of strange tactic. I don't know if anybody would encourage these??

**My personal fav. is gyaku-do. It's unguarded for most of the time (blame the safety reason), and people hardly practice it. Very difficult to score because of the small target as well. Best attack +defence. Strong seme, strong center, and strong te-no-uchi which can make people jump!

While I am used to humor on forums, humor on a Kendo forum is much harder to decipher. I shall assume that you were joking about most of these things, as they are entirely innopropriate behavior for a Kenshi. (I shall not even bring up the damage resulting to your distancing if you rely on stepping on their toes.)

scbang

17th December 2002, 05:28 AM

Nothing beats the feeling of Kote-Nuki-Men.

SC

munenmuso

17th December 2002, 10:52 AM

Men-uchi is the coup-de-grace.

I also like the technique where your opponent hits you in the men then you block it with your shinai then continuesly hit him in the left side of his do in single motion then you go through your right. What do we call that?It's so fast and difficult to execute since your opponent at the same time is lounging forward, it's difficult to establish distance to effectively hit his do after blocking his men-uchi.Blocking an unexpected men is difficult itself then unconciously hitting his do as a reflex shot is harder.

JSchmidt

17th December 2002, 11:19 AM

^^^^
Kaeshi-do

munenmuso

17th December 2002, 11:26 AM

Thanks Jakob...

I did it once agains't a 4dan and scored. Then I can't do it anymore effectively. It's so difficult I was only lucky that time.

kendokamax

17th December 2002, 02:08 PM

well nuki do- is harder

Tato

17th December 2002, 07:58 PM

Still on the dark side waza subject.

Here you will find a litte review of dark waza. Sorry it's in Spanish, but I think that most of the readers will understand. ;)

http://kenwakai.org/uchimap.jpg

Rei

scbang

18th December 2002, 02:23 PM

Can't read Spanish Tato but hidari Men is illegal?

scbang

18th December 2002, 02:31 PM

Re: hitting someone from sankyo after hajime (from the previous page)

This is the reason we sit people far apart at Sonkyo - Modern Shiai - NYC

Tato

19th December 2002, 12:47 AM

Errr, some translation.

Of course, hidari men is legal.

In the picture there is a yellow line for what our webmaster called "mimi uchi"... men that lands on your hears. (Usually performed by a beginner, hmmm, errr, that means by people like me)

And the red one is for what he called "uragiri ushiro men uchi"...
men from your back. Not very legal....

;)

I would be pleased to translate more. Questions?

Rei

hamish

19th December 2002, 02:01 PM

I loved it, especially 'tamago uchi' !

Hamish

mingshi

19th December 2002, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by bukowski
While I am used to humor on forums, humor on a Kendo forum is much harder to decipher.

Guess I'm just very bad at joking :tired:

Should try Tamago-tsuki sometimes :eek:

Tato

19th December 2002, 07:51 PM

Please, don't...

Kent Enfield

21st December 2002, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by mingshi
Should try Tamago-tsuki sometimes :eek: I've seen it happen once. A relative beginner went for kote, his aite did that nuki-waza in which you let go with the right hand. The beginner over-cut, as beginers often do. Unfortunately he pressed through keeping on the center like he was supposed to. :eek:

don_lubo

17th January 2003, 04:11 PM

kaeshi-do

Steve

18th January 2003, 02:21 AM

mmmmm, "tamago-tsuki". I been hit by that a couple of times. As well as "tamago - Do" The latter ending my practice early for the evening...ouch!

The most evil "waza" i've experienced was a knee to the groin (ON PURPOSE!!) while in Tsubazeriai, followed by a hiki-men on the back of the head as i was crumpling.

As a side note, this wonderful technique was created and performed by a 16 year old female kendoka in our club.

aru-ma

18th January 2003, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by Steve
The most evil "waza" i've experienced was a knee to the groin (ON PURPOSE!!) while in Tsubazeriai, followed by a hiki-men on the back of the head as i was crumpling.

As a side note, this wonderful technique was created and performed by a 16 year old female kendoka in our club.

:eek: that sounds nastier than tamago-tsuki, and on purpose? what did you do to deserve that?:confused:

Favorite waza: Kote-do

chidokan

20th January 2003, 05:59 AM

you obviously said women have no place in martial arts classes...:D ....for some reason they get upset about this.

kote, kote, men, followed by do as they reel under my superb attacking skills:D

Tim Hamilton

Steve

21st January 2003, 03:54 AM

Well, from whati could understand from her explanation after the fact was that she was frustrated that she couldn't hit me out of Tsubazeriai without me hitting her first.

She has a bit of a temper.....

chidokan

21st January 2003, 04:15 AM

tell her just to stamp her feet and do a good kiai next time...it wont hurt you as much...

Tim Hamilton

Paburo

21st January 2003, 05:15 AM

due to the great success my uchimap had i just translated it to english for better understanding.

http://kenwakai.org/img/uchimap_eng.jpg

to the girls out there willing to try tamago uchi on us innocent males, have in mind you women have your own weak spots. be aware of 'machigai dou uchi', or dou hit that fails the armour and lands on the rib/'chest'.

woooosh *paff. no woman no cry.

KATSUJIN

21st January 2003, 07:32 PM

well....getting kneed in the groin is bad...i got tsuki on my groin a few times already....until i cant take it.....sometimes people see me walk after training and they know wat happened.....sigh....my friends r so dangerous.....

nukido

28th January 2003, 03:42 PM

my name says it all!!

Dwayne P.

9th February 2003, 03:30 AM

I have a couple favorites:

Harai-Men (omote/ura)
Uchiotoshi-Tsuki (omote)
Men-Suriage-Men (ura)
Katsugi-Kote
Men-Nuki-Do

Stoldark

14th February 2003, 01:32 AM

my fave waza? Just simply Tobi komi men.

KATSUJIN

18th February 2003, 09:38 PM

stoldark??? benny...is that u???

kenshinkan

24th September 2003, 06:17 AM

i figured a nice one out wich works a lot of the time:
kote nuki men kaeshi do

you let the other one make nuki men and you come back with the kaeshi (or nuki) do. If you're really in the mood, maybe tsuki :D

Also favorite: kote keashi men
debana kote

dislike: nuki do

Alicia

24th September 2003, 05:59 PM

Nothing beats the feeling of Kote-Nuki-Men.

SC
hear hear
its relatively easy once you get the hang of the timing and just feels perfect because there is no nasty knocking of the shinais at any stage. only problem is if you are a bit slow you can get a very nasty knock on the knuckles (i hav a lump now) but all that does is makes you faster next time and also improves your kendo by not allowing you to use your right arm overly (as the hand is paralysed from the pain)

eKenshi

1st October 2003, 09:35 PM

i like to wait for my aite to move first then(while maintaining a good kiai)i counter him with nukiwazas.But practically i only manage to did it once..the sempai at my dojo seems to lack patience.THEY HAMMER YOU DOWN!BLACK HAWK DOWN!

Gen'ei

30th December 2003, 06:08 AM

My waza is well the first tecnique learned in my Familys style,
Zan Ryu Atemi now thats something worth training for, one stroke swiftly and accurately now thats damage to the vital points.

canadasword

2nd March 2004, 06:02 AM

Have to agree with Mingshi. Gyaku do.Seems most of people really un-aware of it. Yes...good waza.

Problem, most judges do't give point for this type of DoYes...but who cares? The look on opponent's face is worth it!

just hit and run, before they recover enough to realise my Men is totally exposed. No, no, no... Finish him off.

Any do-strike is good.:cheerful: