Shiai Revision

[Nishi]

Hi there, again...
Theres been a rise in the shiai training in my dojo latley due to September taikai just around the corner.

One of the lessons we have gone over this month is YUKO DATOTSU or valid strikes. I have always been taught that a valid cut must be unimpeded, that is to say, the shinai must be free of obstacle on its flight path to the target. But looking at the guidlines....

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike)

Does "accurate" mean "unimpeded" here?

[mingshi]

Hi David,

I thought "accurate" means cutting on datotsu-bui (target areas)?

Also check the rules below Article 12.

Datotsu in the following cases shall not be valid:
1. Aiuchi; or
2. When Datotsu is made, the opponent is checking the attacker by touching the latter's upper front body with the tip of the former's Shinai in high spirits and in the right posture.

[Nishi]

Hi Jenny, article 12.2 shows an example of the attackers body being impeded by the defenders shinai, and 12.1 is obviously a draw (ai-uchi) with no point being awarded to either player.

I have seen many shinpan not award the point when a cut hits the defenders shiani (while attempting to block) and also hits the target accuratley. Ive never thought twice about this due to being taught this way myself, but as usual, the guidlines look open to interpitation(sp?).

Im curious if this half block, or lazy parry you see some do in shiai is a point spoiler. In my opinion it is, but as i said the guidlines dont appear to support me on this...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Case by case. If you both cut men and your cut deflects his cut along the way to landing solidly, then your cut is valid. More than valid, good job keeping centre I say. If you cut and he blocks and your cut cleanly blasts through his block and hits strongly, then again your cut is valid. However if he blocks and slows your cut down so that your contact is light, you probably won't get a point even though you might have if the block wasn't there. Also everything else has to be there and often people's zanshin is screwed up by the block.

The other way of impeding the cut which is to stop the opponent with mune-tsuki or similar motion is also case by case. If you cut men and your opponent stops you with tsuki but is late (his shinai contacts after your shinai), then no point. If his contact is same time or earlier then generally no point for you even if his tsuki is not very strong. However if his tsuki is not strong, slipping to the side and your men is very strong you may get the point as the judges may see a very strong attack overcoming a very weak defence.

[Nishi]

That clears things up a bit, but its always vague until you see what is being awarded on the day as well. There seems to be a trend in the way shinpan judge, and there is usually a collective difference from taikai to taikai. I think its important to watch the first few bouts, not so much for the kendo, but more so for the shinpan and how they are scoring.

I almost always keep away from DO (see:shiai do thread), due to it hardly ever being scored. I think its important to watch the judging trends, as well as knowing what the guidlines are asking for.

[Nishi]

From IKF regulations again...

.....Generally the right forearm,
the left forearm can also be a valid point during
CHUDAN-NO-KAMAE (left hand forward holding the sword);
JODAN-NO KAMAE
(a KAMAE where the SHINAI is held over the head);
WAKI-KAMAE (a KAMAE
where the SHINAI is held downward by the right foot);
NITO-NO-KAMAE (KAMAE using two SHINAI); AGE-KOTE
(where the KOTE is held above the pit of the
stomach, except when executing DATOTSU); and KAMAE
variations from CHUDAN. The top of the hand is not
a valid DATOTSU.
c. DO (torso). The left and right sides of the DO.
d. TSUKI (throat). The TSUKI-TARE (throat flap on the
MEN) and the breast section of the DO when JODAN-NO KAMAE
and NITO-NO-KAMAE are used.

First, im not sure what age-kote is, i may just have been taught a different name, or no name at all.

Second, i thought we did away with Mune-Tsuki? But section (d) refers to it as legal when fencing against those in jodan or nito, ive always attacked the tsuki-tare.

Input...!!!

[JSchmidt]

Second, i thought we did away with Mune-Tsuki? But section (d) refers to it as legal when fencing against those in jodan or nito, ive always attacked the tsuki-tare.

Input...!!!

All the IKF regulations I've found online are the old ones, before they removed mune-tsuki.

Jakob

[emitbrownne]

i thought we did away with Mune-Tsuki? But section (d) refers to it as legal when fencing against those in jodan or nito, ive always attacked the tsuki-tare.

Why was this Tsuki abandonned as a legitimate target?
Especially when it is a safer form of tsuki, than attacking the throat?? :?

[JSchmidt]

Why was this Tsuki abandonned as a legitimate target?
Especially when it is a safer form of tsuki, than attacking the throat?? :?

Because it was deemed too easy to hit and many people stopped fighting from jodan.
As for the safety issue, I've tried several times having a shinai slide up from the mune and under the tsuki-dare.
IMO, a missed tsuki doesnt hurt any more than a missed do cut that hits above the do...you just have to suck it up :D

Jakob

[Nishi]

Because it was deemed too easy to hit and many people stopped fighting from jodan.
Jakob

:shocked: Really??

I Cant see that being the case with nito though as the still hold centre with the shoto, mune-tsuki would still be challenging to hit, and easily parried by the shoto, but I can see the advantage here against jodan...

So we had to change the rules for you guys hu? :silly:
(says the guy whos been trying jodan this month...lol!)

[Flashman]

Because it was deemed too easy to hit and many people stopped fighting from jodan.
As for the safety issue, I've tried several times having a shinai slide up from the mune and under the tsuki-dare.
IMO, a missed tsuki doesnt hurt any more than a missed do cut that hits above the do...you just have to suck it up :D

Jakob

Sometimes you can't "suck it up" from a tsuki injury.

See, Masui. 1992 Apr;41(4):673-6. Related Articles, Links
[A case of pneumomediastinum caused by closed tracheal injury during the game of Kendo (Japanese fencing)]

[Article in Japanese]

Komatsu H, Enzan K, Mitsuhata H, Hasegawa J, Matsumoto S, Suzuki M, Nishihira S.

Department of Anesthesiology, Akita University Hospital.

A patient was injured accidentally on his neck during the game of Kendo (Japanese fencing). After his neck injury, he continued to play Kendo because there was no symptom at that time. Starting 10 minutes after the injury, swelling as well as pain on the neck and dyspnea developed gradually. After the admission to the emergency room, computed tomography revealed pneumomediastinum. Nasal endotracheal intubation was performed gently under fiberscopy. Dyspnea and pneumomediastinum improved gradually during the 6 days after the admission. A patient who has received a closed injury on his neck without immediate symptoms or signs must be observed closely because the absence of symptoms or signs does not guarantee the absence of the injury of the trachea.

PMID: 1578627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[JSchmidt]

Sometimes you can't "suck it up" from a tsuki injury.


Yups..injuries happens...but I bet you that you will see at least 10 torn achilles tendons for every minor neck injury.
Should we stop moving just because of that?

Jakob

[Nishi]

First, im not sure what age-kote is, i may just have been taught a different name, or no name at all.

Anyone have an answer for this "AGE-KOTE" buisness???

[Nishi]

Okay the British open is out of the way, i think we had 55 kenshi competing for
- under 16's - Womens- Mens ikkyu to sandan - Mens Yondan and above-
- Kata competition-

Just wondering what the U.K. contingent thought about the overall event? My usual issues with "shiai do" i posted on the "shiai do thread". Other than some dodgy judging in certain areas, the judging was a better standard overall than usual (IMO).

Did anybody else like that perfect men-cut in the mens yondan final!

Congrats to GMason (and kata partner) for bagging the Kata division.. 1st place!
(do shin ken yu kai 2 years in a row!)