History: May 4, 1970, four dead in Ohio

[Ignatz]

37 years ago when Mrs. Ignatz was a freshman at Kent State.

[Washington]

Just read about that today in the paper. Whatcha think of the recordings?

[Ignatz]

I have not heard the recording but I would not be surprised if there was an order to open fire.

Many people have no idea about the things that happened in those days.

[Makigai]

That was a sad day for the US. But unfortunately most of the US didn't know it, and still doesn't. I knew one of the guardsman in the 70's and he was having a rough time dealing with it. He was even suicidal at times. I never asked him but assumed he was one of the ones who opened fire.

[ScottUK]

Got a weblink?

[bullet08]

i heard about it, but don't know the detail. then again i was 3 when that happened and living in korea. that's the year when they took 7 tumors out of my neck without putting me under.. what fun.

pete

[bullet08]

Got a weblink?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

pete

[ScottUK]

These things happen when you get overzealous security forces, or maybe even someone who aims to get a response (see Bloody Sunday where the paras were drawn into a firefight that went out of control), but if they were ordered to fire on unarmed protesters? Scary...

[neko]

isn't there some phenomenom where armed people in a group will all start firing if one person starts to fire? i thought this is what happened at kent state. why else were so many shots fired? weren't the guardsmen inexperienced too?

[joekc6nlx]

The History Channel had an episode of "Our Generation" that had both former Guardsmen and Kent State students who were involved.

One of the things that was pointed out was that the Guard was unfamiliar with the campus. There were two contingents of Guard at opposite places on the green. When one contingent tried to move the students off the green, they inadvertently moved them into a dead-end from which they couldn't get out so they moved off toward the other contingent. After that, what happened is very hazy.

My biggest question of the whole incident (I was just getting ready to graduate from high school), was why the Guard had live ammunition, secondly, why were their weaons loaded, and third, who gave the order to fire on unarmed students?

One of those killed wasn't even involved. She was walking to class and a stray bullet struck her.

We may never know the truth since the Adjutant and the governor of Ohio are no longer "available for comment".

[Washington]

Many people have no idea about the things that happened in those days.

Bad wording. Meant I had just read about the recordings in the paper, already knew about the incident :)

Link to news story on them
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3103830

[Ignatz]

isn't there some phenomenom where armed people in a group will all start firing if one person starts to fire? i thought this is what happened at kent state. why else were so many shots fired? weren't the guardsmen inexperienced too?

One of the things they try to teach you in basic training is not to fire unless the order to fire is given. Unfortunately the training very rarely survives the first 30 seconds of engagement. You will often see the police do the same thing, even though they are supposedly trained in a paramilitary fashion. Look at what happened a week or so after kent State at Jackson State when the State police opened fire on the students. Hundreds of rounds fired.
Look and you will see many incidents of the police firing excessive numbers of rounds.

One of the defenses at Kent State was that somebody fired and, as you suggest, everyone started shooting.

There is a reel to reel tape recording of the incident that people now say there was an actual order to fire.

As Joe points out, why were these poorly trained Guardsmen carrying live ammo?

[Washington]

Why live ammo? Common.. you know those hippy types. Look at 'em sideways and they'll kill ya without thinking twice about it. Mad dogs.. all of em. Staring at all that tie dye for hours on end sends them into a foaming beserker frenzy.

[Ignatz]

. . .Staring at all that tie dye for hours on end sends them into a foaming beserker frenzy.
I see paisley and I just want to. . . .:scared:

Who was in the National Guard in 1970? (Besides George W?)
Mostly white boys who were evading the draft but didn't have the stones to admit it and go to prison. I guess that includes W.

Who were the leaders of the Ohio Guard?
Commander in Chief, James Allen Rhodes born 1909 never served a day in the military in WWII or Korean Conflict. (history has a habit of repeating itself, doesn't it?)
Quote:(referring to anti-war protestors at Kent State) "worse than the brownshirts and the communist element and also the nightriders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America."

ARRRRGGGHHHHHHHH.

I was hitch hiking home across the country and couldn't get out of Ohio so I took a bus and met the future Mrs. Ignatz.
Go figure.

[Washington]

I was hitch hiking home across the country and couldn't get out of Ohio so I took a bus and met the future Mrs. Ignatz.
Go figure.

That possibly qualifies as the only good thing I have heard about Greyhound... ever. Assuming your happily married that is :nervous:

[Makigai]

Military forces are a poor replacement for police. Poorly trained military forces are even worse. In the 60's and 70's it was a very cozy National Guard. What I mean by that is it was familiar.

Opinion Only - We still have not learned not to use the military as a police force.

[Kyung]

It's very eerie...reminds me of the incident in Korea when masses were shot and murdered by the korean military under the order of that bastard president. I forgot his name.

[joekc6nlx]

Having served in the military for 22 years, I can honestly tell you that we are NOT a police force. We were trained for warfare, not law enforcement.

The biggest mistake any government can make is to use its armed forces against its own citizens.

The only military branch that has law enforcement training is the Coast Guard. Whenever a U.S. Navy ship would stop a suspect vessel at sea, it carried a Coast Guard contingent for the express purpose of boarding, searching, and seizing. The Navy is not taught the niceties of search and seizure, since our main objective is to blow the target out of the water.

I'm pretty sure that within the military, there are units for law enforcement, such as the Military Police, the Armed Forces Police, and the equivalents in the Navy and Air Force. However, they are mostly concerned with internal affairs within the military, not law enforcement per se.

I heard once that James A. Rhodes was going into performing arts after his terms as governor. He was going to be a contortionist and his first major success was the night he made an "S" of himself.

The Adjutant of the Ohio National Guard was just as guilty as anyone else for issuing live ammunition.

Were you aware that in order for the military to use chemical agents such as tear gas, it requires an order from either the President, or the Secretary of Defense. There are a few other people authorized to make that order, and none of them are military. Police forces use tear gas regularly in the performance of their law enforcement duties.

[Seiza_Seizure]

This was how I learned about the tragic event in Ohio. I was not born then, but I fell in love with this song. Tragic moment, beautiful song.

Ohio

lyrics by Neil Young

--------

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are gunning us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are gunning us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.