Origins of nito ryu in modern kendo

[herb mowery]

Hello all;
I have just finishied watching kendo DVD's which i bought at tournament and Nito ryu disc was with the set of four -the questions i have after watching them are these,
1)Why is there no nito ryu kata in our kata?
2)Is there a difference in this version than the ryu-ha of old in terms of tech's and concepts?
3)Do you have to have a certian rank to practice it?
4)Why is it not very well accepted in kendo circle today i see very few actually doing it and know body know's who teaches it as a specialty.
5)Who is the highest ranked Nito ryu kendoka and where?
6)In judgeing nito kendoka should they have there own rules and if so what are they as to the rest of use in shiai.
7)Can you score with shoto or is it just a defensive weapon used only to parry which i have seen in most cases at tournaments,and if testing and your )uke-uchidachi)has nito how do you compencate for it to pass test.
hope to hear from you guys soon.
Herb

[Neil Gendzwill]

1)Why is there no nito ryu kata in our kata?
2)Is there a difference in this version than the ryu-ha of old in terms of tech's and concepts?
3)Do you have to have a certian rank to practice it?
4)Why is it not very well accepted in kendo circle today i see very few actually doing it and know body know's who teaches it as a specialty.
5)Who is the highest ranked Nito ryu kendoka and where?
6)In judgeing nito kendoka should they have there own rules and if so what are they as to the rest of use in shiai.
7)Can you score with shoto or is it just a defensive weapon used only to parry which i have seen in most cases at tournaments,and if testing and your )uke-uchidachi)has nito how do you compencate for it to pass test.
hope to hear from you guys soon.
Herb
1) Because kendo is based in the one-sword style. Even niten ichi ryu (Musashi's school) has mostly itto kata.
2) Yes. My feeling is that nito (not nito ryu) is very much a competition-oriented style. That's just my personal opinion.
3) No, but many people feel you should have a solid grounding in itto before beginning.
4) See 1) and 2).
5) I think there's a hachidan guy around, other people could probably quote a name or three. In Japan, of course. Highest ranked guy in North America is probably Kato-sensei in NYC.
6) Same rules, but since most shimpan don't have a lot of experience with it it is often misjudged.
7) a. By all accounts the shoto is impossible or extremely difficult to score with.
b. Do your best straight kendo, and try not to let the other guy screw you up too much.

[Black Knight]

1) 2) Yes. My feeling is that nito (not nito ryu) is very much a competition-oriented style. That's just my personal opinion.



Two questions, Neil:

1. Why not "nito-ryu"? That's what it's called in the AJKF English dictionary.

2. If nito-ryu is so competition-oriented, why don't nito players do better, by, for example, frequently winning individual championships? As you yourself have noted, it is not often judged well, and this is probably more to the disadvantage of the nito player.

Thanks,

Brian

[Neil Gendzwill]

Two questions, Neil:

1. Why not "nito-ryu"? That's what it's called in the AJKF English dictionary.

2. If nito-ryu is so competition-oriented, why don't nito players do better, by, for example, frequently winning individual championships? As you yourself have noted, it is not often judged well, and this is probably more to the disadvantage of the nito player.

1. Well, I bow to the ZNKR if that's their terminology. But it's not really a ryu, there's no lineage of people teaching it like regular koryu. We don't say we do "itto-ryu" kendo, we may say we have heritage there, but that's not what we're doing.
2. You answered your own question.

[Black Knight]

2. No, I haven't answered my own question. I have offered evidence to contradict your statement.

By saying that nito (or nito-ryu or those two-sword wierdos) is competition-oriented, you are implying that the purpose of the style is to win tournaments.

My argument is that nito doesn't win tournaments very often, and in fact it is probably harder to do well in a tournament due to inherent itto bias and shimpan unfamiliarity with what constitutes yuko-datotsu from a nito player.

So, I ask again, in what way is nito competition-oriented? Oriented to lose? :)

Let me make an alternative suggestions as to why people do nito:

-to try something different and interesting.
-just because it's fun or it "feels natural".
-nito has a somewhat more "free" spirit to it, such as allowing the player his or her choice of which hands to hold the daito and shoto in and which foot to put forward.

I think anyone who gets into nito because they want to win competitions is fooling themselves...obviously folks like Matthew Raymond are highly competitive, but I think they are the exception rather than the rule.

[Halcyon]

2. If nito-ryu is so competition-oriented, why don't nito players do better, by, for example, frequently winning individual championships?
I think it's also an issue of brute numbers. There aren't that many nito players around.

[Neil Gendzwill]

People get into nito for a variety of reasons. But to me, it's competition oriented because the two swords give a competitive advantage (attack and defence simultaneously) and also because it's even less cutting-oriented than itto kendo.

As to why it fails in competition, as Paul points out there's not that many players out there. Also it requires a high level of ability and also a physical strength and dexterity that most don't have. A lot of people who try nito aren't all that good at it.

People who are good at it, like Raymond and Itokazu, have quite a lot of success however it seems to me like they face an uphill battle with the judges at times.

[Oroshi]

1. Well, I bow to the ZNKR if that's their terminology. But it's not really a ryu, there's no lineage of people teaching it like regular koryu. We don't say we do "itto-ryu" kendo, we may say we have heritage there, but that's not what we're doing.
Not to derail the thread, but 'ryu' in Japanese doesn't always refer to a ryuha. It can simply mean 'style,' so you can have such words as アメリカ流 (Amerika-ryu) to mean 'American style.' In the case of kendo I think nito-ryu might just mean 'two sword style.' :)

[JSchmidt]

In the case of kendo I think nito-ryu might just mean 'two sword style.' :)

That's what I keep hearing..

[shred_lord]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Oroshi again.Just for being sickeningly informative! :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

I buy that, but I still don't like it because it leads to confusion between nito kendo and HNIR.

[Old Warrior]

People get into nito for a variety of reasons. But to me, it's competition oriented because the two swords give a competitive advantage (attack and defence simultaneously) and also because it's even less cutting-oriented than itto kendo

I disagree with both these thesis. As you pointed out, most judges have no idea how to score nito and therefore it is always an uphill battle. I am by no means "highly skilled", but I have gone to competitions and not been awarded a single point and last month I won 6 bouts in a row (finishing 2nd in the > 40). I hardly think that my kendo underwent some kind of epiphany.

Historically, swords have been used with one hand. Sometimes with shields and sometimes with daggers. I believe there less clubbing when the sword is in one hand and more cutting motion, not less. This is particularly true because there is less force than can be generated by one hand than two and it is considerably more difficult to maintain proper striking form with one hand.

[michaelm]

6)In judgeing nito kendoka should they have there own rules and if so what are they as to the rest of use in shiai.


In a tournament last year, I remember a bout being stopped for quite some time due to shimpan discussion about the relative position of the shoto and daito while in tsubazeriai. The nito player, who held the shoto in his right hand, would keep his shoto held above the daito while in tsubazeriai. I think they were thinking there was an unfair trapping advantage.

Can anyone clarify what the official rules say?

[Black Knight]

I'm pretty sure the rules don't say a damned thing about it.

However, if you watch the ebogu nito-ryu video, M. Raymond shows that "trapping" thing and a big X appears on the screen with a really annoying buzzing sound. This has conditioned me never to do it, for fear of hearing the buzzer again. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I disagree with both these thesis.You disagree that being able to simultaneously attack and defend is an advantage?

[euclid]

I'm pretty sure the rules don't say a damned thing about it.

However, if you watch the ebogu nito-ryu video, M. Raymond shows that "trapping" thing and a big X appears on the screen with a really annoying buzzing sound. This has conditioned me never to do it, for fear of hearing the buzzer again. :)


Raymond sensei was kind enough to come to our clubs first seminar this year and man....he doesn't NEED to trap! Not only is the guy huge....he's sooo fast!

Off topic I know...but man, I have a lot of respect for him. I'm a fairly big strong guy myself and seeing him do keiko up close and personal inspired me to make use of my advantages. Not that I really HAVE yet...but I'm working on it.

=P


Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[Old Warrior]

You disagree that being able to simultaneously attack and defend is an advantage?

If no one knows how or is unwilling to score what you do, it's no advantage at all. I simulatneously blocked high with the shoto and a hit left do, more than twice (last month) and could not get a point to save my life. The daito made that solid sound, I stepped back with pretty fair posture and nobody even flinched with a flag. I personally believe that whatever advantage you think the two swords gives you is offset by the fact that most shimpan have no idea how to score. The fact that Messrs Raymond and Itokazu have done so well is a credit to their overwhelming skill.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That was my point, though. The kamae has it's advantages in shiai, no denying it. That's why I think of it as being competition-oriented, despite the other issues. It's the dual-factor of it being difficult to execute well and that it's often misjudged that keep it from being more dominant.

I agree that people who elect to use the kamae aren't necessarily doing so because of a desire for a competitive advantage.

[Old Warrior]

That was my point, though. The kamae has it's advantages in shiai, no denying it. That's why I think of it as being competition-oriented, despite the other issues. It's the dual-factor of it being difficult to execute well and that it's often misjudged that keep it from being more dominant.

I agree that people who elect to use the kamae aren't necessarily doing so because of a desire for a competitive advantage.

Expressed that way - I agree. I had no thought that I would ever appear in a competition when I began my nito journey. I just accepted that my Sabumnin thought it would be best for me to learn.

[herb mowery]

Hey guys ;
If ZNKR would get behind this Mr. Raymond and other would have a better playing field and other at judging tables would also have a better uderstanding of what is going on we to had to stop a match to figure out what to call on a several strikes between KOO from Cleveland and another guy whom was doing nito -i think this was one of the guys that was testing that way to for his third dan rank again if i where playing as normal and a guy testing with me was doing nito how would he be judged with a diiferent kamae and a constant defence all my strikes or for that matter anybody else's would be parried and form would be lost making me look bad for not have good striking and correct technique, this inturn would mine i failed i say this because my fellow kendoka from our class failed his test -his uchidachi was nito player,i like nito i just haven't read or seen that much about it till now and it still seems very secretive even amoung us here.and as far as kata is cocerned why not they have to learn all the single sword kata as we do so why not put together a nito kata as part of our kata list and make things interesting for all kendoka around world.-paul it would be cool to work this kind of kata out -could you stop and think how much time we would have to put into this kata if it ever would come about.

[Ignatz]

Wow, that's a sentence.:grin:

[euclid]

Hey guys ;
If ZNKR would get behind this Mr. Raymond and other would have a better playing field and other at judging tables would also have a better uderstanding of what is going on we to had to stop a match to figure out what to call on a several strikes between KOO from Cleveland and another guy whom was doing nito -i think this was one of the guys that was testing that way to for his third dan rank again if i where playing as normal and a guy testing with me was doing nito how would he be judged with a diiferent kamae and a constant defence all my strikes or for that matter anybody else's would be parried and form would be lost making me look bad for not have good striking and correct technique, this inturn would mine i failed i say this because my fellow kendoka from our class failed his test -his uchidachi was nito player,i like nito i just haven't read or seen that much about it till now and it still seems very secretive even amoung us here.and as far as kata is cocerned why not they have to learn all the single sword kata as we do so why not put together a nito kata as part of our kata list and make things interesting for all kendoka around world.-paul it would be cool to work this kind of kata out -could you stop and think how much time we would have to put into this kata if it ever would come about.

The fundamental problem is that there just aren't that many high ranking Nito sensei. Just learning a kata or two from someone who has no background in nito is somewhat counterproductive.

[Ignatz]

I took the liberty of editing Mr. Mowery's post, if I got it wrong, sorry:

Hey guys ;
If ZNKR would get behind Mr. Raymond and others, there would be a better playing field and shinpan would also have a better uderstanding of what is going on.

W e to had to stop a match to figure out what to call on several strikes between KOO from Cleveland and another guy whom was doing nito.

I think this was one of the guys that was testing that way to for his third dan rank.

If I where playing/testing itto and a guy testing with me was doing nito, how would he be judged with a diferent kamae and a constant defence toall my strikes? For that matter most attacks would be parried and form would be lost making me look bad for not having good striking and correct technique. This in turn would cause me to fail.

I say this because my fellow kendoka from our class failed his test -his uchidachi was nito player.

I like nito. I just haven't read or seen that much about it till now and it still seems very secretive even among us here.

As far as kata is conerned as they have to learn all the single sword kata as we do, why not put together a nito kata as part of our kata list and make things interesting for all kendoka around world?

-paul it would be cool to work this kind of kata out -could you stop and think how much time we would have to put into this kata if it ever would come about?

[AlexM]

The 8th dan nito player Neil referred to earlier is probably Toda-sensei from Tokyo Police.

Nito is a massive problem at times:

A) Its ugly when performed by most players.
B) How can you get a clean ippon in a nito vs. nito match? It's not a question of knowing how to judge, it's a question of seeing four shinai flying around. The chances for a clean hit are lousy. Even in an itto vs. nito match there's still a great deal of sound, fury and clanging signifying nothing.

I was told that for a katate strike to be scored it has to basically have the same impact as a morote strike: You can't just let the shinai drop on the guy's men (that's an exaggeration but you get the point). Most people can't manage that kind of impact. After all, we can't start judging nito players by a lower standard than itto ones.

I would like to know what the shimpan are supposed to "know more" about when judging nito (besides the tsubazeriai rule regarding shoto in front of daito... or the reverse, I can never remember). What are they missing in terms of experience?

[Neil Gendzwill]

my fellow kendoka from our class failed his test -his uchidachi was nito player.You get keiko against two different people. The judges will evaluate whether he was OK based on both matches. In my mind it's really no different to running up against someone who is well above the grade standard.


I would like to know what the shimpan are supposed to "know more" about when judging nito (besides the tsubazeriai rule regarding shoto in front of daito... or the reverse, I can never remember). What are they missing in terms of experience?Aside from rule variations, I reckon it's understanding how points are generated out of that kamae. In the same fashion as it being difficult to judge a match that is higher level than you can play yourself, it's difficult to understand and see the points that happen out of a kamae you don't understand or haven't even seen very much. And similar to judges tending to discredit waza they don't like or don't use, maybe some of the nito waza also get some prejudice.

This is all just speculation on my part. If Moocow was still hanging around here he could shed some light on this.

[AlexM]

What Neil said

I see what you mean. But at the same time is there that much more difficulty judging people who do jodan? Or really lousy chudan? (ok, you may have a point)

After all, you smack the guy on the kote or men and voilà! Ippon. The last comment is tongue in cheek but sometimes it comes down to actually being able to do that and many people who do nito just can't do it properly. This is either because they only use only one hand (strength issue), or the coordination isn't there (timing issue), or they can't create an opening as easily despite having a shoto (seme issue).

As for scoring dou with nito... Dou barely gets scored in chudan so good luck trying to score it one handed.

[Neil Gendzwill]

They don't like doh much from jodan, either. But yeah, the kewl factor of nito pulls in a lot of people who aren't ready for it or not well-suited to it.

I think judging jodan is a little easier as there isn't the second shinai to confuzzle things.

[ScottUK]

I have informal practices with nito as I have, er, quite an interest in nito waza. :)

What have I discovered? It is difficult, frustrating, tiring, clumsy, complicated etc. It's a lot of fun, but for me it ain't kendo (yet). Maybe in a few years' time I will have a go of taking it seriously. Itto kendo is plenty for now.

[Kingofmyrrh]

The 8th dan nito player Neil referred to earlier is probably Toda-sensei from Tokyo Police.

Toda sensei ain't no copper! He is Mr. Shacho.

[Kenshi]

Its ugly when performed by most players.

This is the biggest problem with nito. Most people are just highly unskilled. Id say that most people in Japan are not good at it as well... but at least there are places and people they can go and learn it properly.


What have I discovered? It is difficult, frustrating, tiring, clumsy, complicated etc. It's a lot of fun, but for me it ain't kendo (yet). Maybe in a few years' time I will have a go of taking it seriously. Itto kendo is plenty for now.

Scotts attitute is the best --- but many people arent as honest as Scott...it seems many people just trying "going nito" all of a sudden. I think youd be better spending your time doing kendo with a single shinai, then moving to jodan then - after a number of years have elapsed - giving it the nito.

As for it being competition oriented - I agree that it tends to be an advantage against people who little experience in attacking nito/jodan, but you never see any nito guy win anything over here. If they are used in teams its generally in the Chuken postition because they know that they can easily get a draw.

Also - and I dont mind stepping on toes here (said it before) - is that I dont think many people on this forum have experienced watching or fencing truly skillful nito people.

Saying all this, I think if you want to be a well-rounded kenshi, then you definetly have to delve into jodan at sometime, and probably even wet your lips with some nito too... at some point.

[xvikingx]

Does anyone here have any clue about the origins? I always assumed it was a modern tag on, until I saw grainy old footage of some guy (George help me out with a name here) doing nito with what looked like two full-length shinai in the “Showa-no-kendo” DVD.
Also how do nito players test? If they do test with nito do those disadvantages that were mentioned earlier affect grading as well? Inquiring minds want to know.

[AlexM]

Toda sensei ain't no copper! He is Mr. Shacho.

I will say 20 Hail Toda's in order to atone.

[Kenshi]

Does anyone here have any clue about the origins?

I will do some research...

But I have assumed there was always people doing it from the start of shinai kendo. There are so many ryuhas out there with nito in their curriculum that I cant imagine it wouldnt have turned up. Also, nito lends its self much better to shinai than it does real swords. Anyway, the musashikai book or the website might be a good start.


Also how do nito players test?

Ive seen people test in jodan, but not in nito (though ive heard about it). Even if the panel is highly experience in normal kendo, does that give them the ability to judge jodan or nito? Also, unless your opponent is experienced at fighting that type of opponent, you are basically reducing his chance of passing.

[xvikingx]

I didn’t realize they had a book…. I’m not terribly interested in nito but the origins have got my attention. New project perhaps?

[Kenshi]

I didn’t realize they had a book…. I’m not terribly interested in nito but the origins have got my attention. New project perhaps?

They have 2 books. One you can get in almost any book shop over here. btw, the website has some good info, including stuff about gradings.

I could go to Musashikai keikokai over here if I want to... but im generally too busy. I should go for a peek I guess.

btw, I think they want to establish a branch in at least the states.

[xvikingx]

Thanks. I will check out their site.

[emitbrownne]

Ive seen people test in jodan, but not in nito (though ive heard about it). Even if the panel is highly experience in normal kendo, does that give them the ability to judge jodan or nito? Also, unless your opponent is experienced at fighting that type of opponent, you are basically reducing his chance of passing.

Just to chip in:- The same can be said of regular practice. When I first started Nito, I was on a selfish path. I was out for my training and getting as much from Nito as possible.

Now I consider who I practice with. If I fence a confident Kendoka I will ask if they will train with me in nito, this gives me the practice and them the exposure.

If they are not confident then generally I switch back to a single sword and use my regular chudan kendo.

I dont want to ruin other peoples practice by my selfish approach to training. That said I think people need to go through the scrappy, and messy phase in the same way they did when they started itto, they just need to consider who and when they fence.

[lucy]

I took the liberty of editing Mr. Mowery's post, if I got it wrong, sorry:

Thanks for that, Ignatz. Helped the second-language speakers a lot. :wink: My teacher would have killed me for such a sentence. :D

[Kenshi]

Just to chip in...

Nice post.

[sainueng]

Also how do nito players test? If they do test with nito do those disadvantages that were mentioned earlier affect grading as well? Inquiring minds want to know.

If I remember correctly, in the National Geographic documentary about the hachidan test, didn't one of the subjects have to test against a nito? Although at that level I suppose technical ability is not as much of a concern. I don't think I can really tell or describe what they're looking for in that test. :p

[JSchmidt]

I see what you mean. But at the same time is there that much more difficulty judging people who do jodan?

In my experience, you have to hit more solidly from jodan. I have also seen this mentioned in shimpan guidelines. In the UK, I've had problems getting my morote-kote scored.

[xvikingx]

For cross reference purposes only. (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6365&highlight=Matthew+Raymond) This thread had some talk about ugly and not-so ugly nito play.

[Hyaku]

I know the word ryu does have other meanings apart from school/line/style

The thing is certain kendo groups would have you beleive that what they actually do IS handed down from Musashi.

Sorry to open up what was previously a can of worms.

[Kenshi]

Sorry to open up what was previously a can of worms.

No problemo. Nobody wants to open that can of worms, we are just talking about kendo here, the rest doesnt matter.

Sazae-san on tv, so im off.