How do you (seitei) guys do Seigan?

[Fred27]

(This should have been named "My Seitei-Jodo ignorance") :tongue:

Anyways, I went through a ZNKR Jodo movie (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5359625860913697857&q=jodo)made by the ZNKR. I noticed that they do Seigan in a different way. Of course that there are differences between Seitei and SMR isn't a suprise, but I could have sworn I've seen Seigan being done the SMR-way in Seitei as well.

Instead of the top-strike to the head like in SMR, the Seitei finishes by striking the sugietsu in this movie. Seigan is shown at around 38.55 into the clip.

[Kim Taylor]

That's Furukawa and Arai sensei doing the demo (and Namitome sensei's daughter at the beginning I've been told). How seigan is done in seitei is as you see it in the video, finishing with a strike to suigetsu (like SMR does it) and not a strike to the top of the head (like SMR does it). In fact that's absolutely identical to how we do it since Furukawa and Arai sensei are two of the alternating sets of instructors that come visit us ;-)

Don't worry, it's not hard to keep that kind of difference separate in your head, you won't have a problem if you move to a ZNKR dojo.

BTW a small word about these tapes. The sensei were told "go to such and such at such and such at time... oh and take your equipment" but weren't told what it was about. When they got there they were told they were doing the instructional tape and then simply did it. No warning, no discussions, just go get filmed. In other words, no big deal, watch and learn but don't expect that these things were micromanaged by some overseeing committee or digitally corrected to some approved standard. (I sometimes get the feeling folks think that's how these things go).

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

How seigan is done in seitei is as you see it in the video, finishing with a strike to suigetsu (like SMR does it) and not a strike to the top of the head (like SMR does it). In fact that's absolutely identical to how we do it since Furukawa and Arai sensei are two of the alternating sets of instructors that come visit us ;-)

Kim Taylor

I'm guessing you pasted one "(like SMR does it)" too many there. :)

Yeh I was actually thinking about the hazards of going from SMR to a Seitei-dojo and doing Seigan. Unless you can easily switch to seitei-mode the uchidachi will have a solid headache....or be forced to use a helmet. :laugh:

Thx for the reply. Oh by the way, along the same theme as "My Seitei-jodo ignorance", but is Furukawa Shunya sensei affiliated with any SMR-organisation in Japan? I know very little of seitei and the higher uppers so I wouldn't mind learning more :)

[Kim Taylor]

Both "like SMR does it" were deliberate Fred. The strike to suigetsu in seitei is done just like it's done in koryu.

As for mistaking which kata you are doing, that's not a seitei vs koryu thing, that's a kata vs kata thing. That's a "walk downtown and then forget what you wanted to buy and which shop you're going to" thing.

Much too much is made of the "difference" between "seitei and koryu" I've never ever been told to do one kata "differently" than another, whether in seitei or in koryu or between the both of them, and I've not-been-told that by quite a large number of kendo federation instructors. (Not one sensei has ever said "seitei is different than koryu" except when commenting on the physical movements).

Furukawa sensei, Arai sensei and Namitome sensei, along with Shiiya sensei, Kurogo sensei and Shinohara sensei who also come visit us are all menkyo kaiden in SMR. These are the visitors that I know are Menkyo, it really isn't talked about, or perhaps I just don't bother to ask. Namitome and Shinohara are from Fukuoka and the others are from Tokyo. We've also been visited by many other sensei and they all have something of great value to teach so I listen to them all closely and try to learn.

Back to the difference between seitei and koryu, I did a video a few days ago where I tried to think up the MJER koryu version for each seitei iai kata and did them next to each other. Never tried it before but it was interesting, I'll try to get that video up at http://sdksupplies.com/cat_video_download.html in the next day or so, so you can see the "differences" between the iaido seitei and koryu. I don't see differences and I don't get confused between them, the core is the same, the outward appearance is of course different but that's irrelevent really, just like it's not meaningful which sword school you practice, MJER, MSR, Hoki ryu, Tamiya ryu, Mugai ryu to name a few that I've tried over the years. I found nothing "different" in any of them except for surface appearance. Even if the movements of Hoki ryu seemed to be made of of every "mistake" you could make in MJER. Internally it made sense, at the core it was the same, only superficially was it different than MJER and it certainly wasn't "wrong".

Of course you'll see me get confused in a couple of places in those videos since I'm old and generally am not thinking at all when I do kata, so when a thought does wander in I blow a movement or two. Which just means I'm still working on one of the core commandments of any Japanese martial art yes? But the mistakes aren't being made because I'm switching from seitei to koryu or from the style of one sensei to another... mistakes made that way are made because one doesn't have enough years in to reliably separate one movement from another, as I've said elsewhere, the standard error of a beginner's movement is quite often larger than the difference between seitei and koryu, or between two diffent lines of koryu or indeed between two different koryu.

So don't worry about clocking your partner if you move to a kendo federation dojo and do seitei, you're no more likely to do it in seitei than you are while doing koryu... or less likely either ;-)

Kim.

[Fred27]

Wow...I think I may have accidentally turned this convo into something much different than what I intended it to be :).

I sincerely hope I havent given you the impression that I find something negative in Seitei or the Senseis. If I have given you that impression than that was definetly not my intention. I simply preferr SMR because it is a very extensive system and I feel (after 2 ½ months) that SMR is the right ryu for me. :)

The reason I was surprised at the "Seigan is done with suigetsu-strike in SMR"-comment is that I've seen both Shimizu Sensei and Pascal doing (in his book) the top-strike version and I was simply curious. Maybe Pascal has changed it since then I dont know. I was at the Geneva camp this year but I cant remember the chudan embu. I'm still 2 kata away from Seigan at my own dojo. :glasses:

On the issue of "is there a difference between Seitei and SMR" all I can say is I personally see a difference between seitei and SMR. Just like I see a difference between what Pascal Krieger Sensei teaches and what Phil Relnick Sensei teaches. Subtle, yet still there. I'm talking movements, ma-ai, grip and so on. So "different" is a point of view I guess and the choice of words is up to the individual and his interpretation of the words. So I interpret "different" in subtler ways than "radically different" like other people choose to intrepret it. Seitei and Koryu are not identical since not even koryu and koryu are identical (Fukuoka and Tokyo). Thats my view on the matter. As for better or worse I hold no such views. To me Jo is Jo.

You interact with Menkyos from Fukuoka? Very nice! I have no real image of the Fukuoka-Jo except what I read on forums here and there. I guess my heart (and my connections) lies in Tokyo-Jo :)

I havent noticed yer clip section before. I'm gonna download it now so apologies if I overextend yer bandwidth for this month (hehe).

Very interesting replies you have given me. I thank you :)

Both "like SMR does it" were deliberate Fred. The strike to suigetsu in seitei is done just like it's done in koryu.

As for mistaking which kata you are doing, that's not a seitei vs koryu thing, that's a kata vs kata thing. That's a "walk downtown and then forget what you wanted to buy and which shop you're going to" thing.

Much too much is made of the "difference" between "seitei and koryu" I've never ever been told to do one kata "differently" than another, whether in seitei or in koryu or between the both of them, and I've not-been-told that by quite a large number of kendo federation instructors. (Not one sensei has ever said "seitei is different than koryu" except when commenting on the physical movements).

Furukawa sensei, Arai sensei and Namitome sensei, along with Shiiya sensei, Kurogo sensei and Shinohara sensei who also come visit us are all menkyo kaiden in SMR. These are the visitors that I know are Menkyo, it really isn't talked about, or perhaps I just don't bother to ask. Namitome and Shinohara are from Fukuoka and the others are from Tokyo. We've also been visited by many other sensei and they all have something of great value to teach so I listen to them all closely and try to learn.

Back to the difference between seitei and koryu, I did a video a few days ago where I tried to think up the MJER koryu version for each seitei iai kata and did them next to each other. Never tried it before but it was interesting, I'll try to get that video up at http://sdksupplies.com/cat_video_download.html in the next day or so, so you can see the "differences" between the iaido seitei and koryu. I don't see differences and I don't get confused between them, the core is the same, the outward appearance is of course different but that's irrelevent really, just like it's not meaningful which sword school you practice, MJER, MSR, Hoki ryu, Tamiya ryu, Mugai ryu to name a few that I've tried over the years. I found nothing "different" in any of them except for surface appearance. Even if the movements of Hoki ryu seemed to be made of of every "mistake" you could make in MJER. Internally it made sense, at the core it was the same, only superficially was it different than MJER and it certainly wasn't "wrong".

Of course you'll see me get confused in a couple of places in those videos since I'm old and generally am not thinking at all when I do kata, so when a thought does wander in I blow a movement or two. Which just means I'm still working on one of the core commandments of any Japanese martial art yes? But the mistakes aren't being made because I'm switching from seitei to koryu or from the style of one sensei to another... mistakes made that way are made because one doesn't have enough years in to reliably separate one movement from another, as I've said elsewhere, the standard error of a beginner's movement is quite often larger than the difference between seitei and koryu, or between two diffent lines of koryu or indeed between two different koryu.

So don't worry about clocking your partner if you move to a kendo federation dojo and do seitei, you're no more likely to do it in seitei than you are while doing koryu... or less likely either ;-)

Kim.

[Kim Taylor]

Not implying anything Fred, just doing my usual thinking through talking. I have read some of your posts lately and understand your position, and realize you may be moving to a kendo federation dojo with the need to do seitei. This is why I'm discussing this with you, normally I would not comment.

I also need to clarify a bit more carefully, when I say that seigan is done with the suigetsu strike "as is done in SMR" I mean the suigetsu strike is done exactly as it is done in SMR not that SMR seigan is done as it is done in seitei. I hope that is clear... there is a difference in seitei seigan and SMR seigan in that the final strike is to different targets. There is no difference in how you do a suigetsu strike like that in seitei and in SMR.

On the rest, yes, there are differences in koryu lines, I can attest to that since I've practiced with so many different lines but not one of the teachers ever said anything that contradicted another, just "I/we do it this way" when I was doing it "that way". No value judgements at all, and the differences are not treated as important, just another way to do it.

In fact I've even heard "hey that's a good way of doing it". In my experience there is no "fetish of difference" if I can say that without offending. "Signature moves" are not something that my instructors think about... in my experience... and I absolutely discourage them in my students.

"Style" and "signature moves" are best left for yet another discussion before I wander too far.

When I say "no difference" I'm talking about the core, your mind, not what it looks like outside. How can I say this, different body shape/paint and maybe even dashboard layout on the same engine and frame in two cars. Not the same body with two different engines and drive trains. I'm talking about the core of practice, not what it looks like.

I can't seem to make that point. Poor communication skills on my side I suppose.

Hmm, just went back and saw that you've been practicing 2.5 months... I probably shouldn't be talking about "sameness" at all, you need to concentrate on differences right now, and a very strict mimicing of your sensei. In other words Fred, nice guy that you are, and curious, and I applaud that, you should not be looking at other sensei at all. Look, think, feel and breathe what your sensei is doing and only what he's doing. Shu shu shu shu. Ignore all comparisons, slavishly copy what you're shown and leave the rest for evening discussions over beer when you're old and grey. You'll get to Ha and Ri soon enough.

I mean that in a kindly old man way, you've got lots of time for this discussion in a few years but it's not doing you any good right now. Go practice instead, (and I need to go do the same).

I forbid you to look at the video I just uploaded! ;-)

Cheers
Kim.

[Fred27]

I also need to clarify a bit more carefully, when I say that seigan is done with the suigetsu strike "as is done in SMR" I mean the suigetsu strike is done exactly as it is done in SMR not that SMR seigan is done as it is done in seitei. I hope that is clear... there is a difference in seitei seigan and SMR seigan in that the final strike is to different targets. There is no difference in how you do a suigetsu strike like that in seitei and in SMR.

Ah! Gotcha. Yes that makes sense now. :)


Not implying anything Fred, just doing my usual
thinking through talking. I have read some of your posts lately and understand your position, and realize you may be moving to a kendo federation dojo with the need to do seitei. This is why I'm discussing this with you, normally I would not comment.


Yes from the looks of it I might end up in a location with Seitei. I'm a person who preferrs to do some research before entering a new situation. :cool2:

On the rest, yes, there are differences in koryu lines, I can attest to that since I've practiced with so many different lines but not one of the teachers ever said anything that contradicted another, just "I/we do it this way" when I was doing it "that way". No value judgements at all, and the differences are not treated as important, just another way to do it.

In fact I've even heard "hey that's a good way of doing it". In my experience there is no "fetish of difference" if I can say that without offending. "Signature moves" are not something that my instructors think about... in my experience... and I absolutely discourage them in my students.

"Style" and "signature moves" are best left for yet another discussion before I wander too far.


When I say "no difference" I'm talking about the core, your mind, not what it looks like outside. How can I say this, different body shape/paint and maybe even dashboard layout on the same engine and frame in two cars. Not the same body with two different engines and drive trains. I'm talking about the core of practice, not what it looks like.


Agreed in full.

I can't seem to make that point. Poor communication skills on my side I suppose.


Meh! I understand. It's been difficult enough to explain to new students a bit of the deeper aspects of Jodo, that its not simply wacking people with a stick as it may appear. But to do it on a forum is even more difficult.

Hmm, just went back and saw that you've been practicing 2.5 months...

Oh that was my bad. I've been practicing for 2 ½ years. I'm at Yokgiri Dome right now and hitting Ran-ai in August. Will be sweet beyond words...then I prolly will get post-Ran-ai depression once Kage kicks in.


I probably shouldn't be talking about "sameness" at all, you need to concentrate on differences right now, and a very strict mimicing of your sensei. In other words Fred, nice guy that you are, and curious, and I applaud that, you should not be looking at other sensei at all. Look, think, feel and breathe what your sensei is doing and only what he's doing. Shu shu shu shu. Ignore all comparisons, slavishly copy what you're shown and leave the rest for evening discussions over beer when you're old and grey. You'll get to Ha and Ri soon enough.

I mean that in a kindly old man way, you've got lots of time for this discussion in a few years but it's not doing you any good right now. Go practice instead, (and I need to go do the same).

I forbid you to look at the video I just uploaded! ;-)

Cheers
Kim.

Heh! Yeh I think I can apreciate this attitude now: that one should shut up and train and not "worry" too much about other peoples way of doing things.

The interest that i have in SMR is a bit two-fold: The student in me absorb everything that my Sensei (and his Sensei) teaches me and I dont worry about how Kaminoda Sensei does it eventhough there are examples of how he does it. The Historian in me (amateur but still) is disgustingly curious & interested & absorbed by SMR-history, the different Jo-traditions, the many different Koryu-traditions and of course Japanese history in general. This is an general addiction as I'm immensely interested in reading about world-history and writing about as well. I prolly shouldnt be making this judgement on my own, but I feel that as of yet my interest in the finer details of SMR or Koryu has not interferred with my progress in my training. If my Sensei thought it did he would tell me straight up. (And no, my sense of security in my training does not mean I believe i'm a fully learned Jodoka or something, far from it.) :P. I am focused on SMR and I would not want to trade it for anythign else, even another koryu...and I have had ample opportunity to do so here and now where I train. I of course realise the pitfalls and I am wary of them. I'm carefully walking across the field riddled with the corpses of good intentions.

Oh...and about not watching those vids?...too late. Good show by teh way :tongue:

All the best
/Fredrik

[Kim Taylor]

Well of course I'm supposed to say that at 2.5 years you're just a baby but really, how hard are the martial arts to learn (at least the dance moves) and you can achieve a PhD at a pretty slow pace in about 7 years. That same time period would get you to about 3.75dan in the Canadian kendo federation at max warp, another 5 years away from instructor level.

Sort of weird when you think about it really, unless you count years of doing the same thing over and over as a requirement for some sort of learning... I mean how many years does it take to learn 50 tiny kata?

Which is why I think it's so common for folks at 3-5 years to start collecting variations and later to start wanting to learn 4-5 different koryu.

And later still comes the contraction and concentration that should have been there all along. ;-)

Now I'm really leaving... I'm going out the door to practice!

Kim.

[dgilliespie]

Of course there is the ever so slight difference in Hissage of using a different weapon.

[Pugtm]

someone want to translate what Seigan means?

[dgilliespie]

someone want to translate what Seigan means?
Sei Gan 清眼 Pure, eye
Read more hee http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/jodochart.htm

[Oroshi]

Sei Gan 清眼 Pure, eye
Read more hee http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/jodochart.htm

This is different to the standard spelling of seigan, and adds another layer of meaning to it.

Seigan in swordwork is usually spelled 正眼, meaning to aim the kissaki at the opponent's eye. It can be used to refer to chudan no kamae.

EDIT: By the way, I love some of those kata names!

[Nakura]

Seigan in swordwork is usually spelled 正眼, meaning to aim the kissaki at the opponent's eye. It can be used to refer to chudan no kamae.

This is the spelling and meaning for Seitei Seigan since, just before the first strike, the jo is pointed at uchi-dachi's eyes.

[Aden]

Kreiger Sensei translated 清眼 as 'right to the eye' but since the ZNKR modified the kata, using 正眼 for seitei seigan seems a very good thing to me.

Proves what an unobservant person I am, of my core references Kreiger uses one seigan and ZNKR jodo nyumon uses the other and I never noticed.

Hmm - guilty pleasure of learning my budo from the internet....

Aden

[Fred27]

If it makes you feel any better I cant identify kanji to save my life. :bored: Not yet anyways.

[Aden]

And inspired by this - its not only seigan with multiple readings - in the omote ichirei seems to have 2. Kreiger Sensei uses 一礼 (single bow) in his book, while
http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/jodochart.htm has 一禮 (one point) and I can find both online if I search for 一礼神道夢想流 or 一禮神道夢想流....

Having finally been taught the last of omote (hmm so much to remember and practice) at gasshuku last week I was making some notes on my return to Australia, looked at my references and wondered if choice of kanji in this case relates to some particular learning point or does it reflect line of instruction.

Aden
University of Wollongong Kendo Club
http://www.uow.edu.au/~aden

[Oroshi]

And inspired by this - its not only seigan with multiple readings - in the omote ichirei seems to have 2. Kreiger Sensei uses 一礼 (single bow) in his book, while
http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/jodochart.htm has 一禮 (one point) and I can find both online if I search for 一礼神道夢想流 or 一禮神道夢想流....
禮 is the non-simplified version of 礼 - in the same way, different branches of MJER will spell the name of the ryuha either 無双直伝英信流 (simplified) or 無雙直傳英信流 (non-simplified).

[Aden]

Thanks very much for the information. That explains why I had to eliminate lots of Taiwanese and Hong Kong based pages from the non simplified search which had nothing to do with Jodo....

Aden