Kanji for kaeshi-waza

[h2o]

Since I study japanese I try to decipher as much kendo vocabulary as possible as part of me learning the language.

But kaeshi-waza have me confused. I assume that kaeshi comes from a verb pronounced kaesu, but I can find （at least) three which all seem to fit the description of kaeshi-waza in some way. So, which one is it, or is my assumption of it being based on "kaesu" wrong?

Here are the three I am considering:
帰す - to send back
返す - to return something
反す - to change

[Oroshi]

It's the second one.

[h2o]

It's the second one.
Damend, then my guess was wrong :)
Do you have any source that I could check against?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I just googled kaeshi kanji kendo and found some examples. Oroshi has the right one. The meaning makes sense, too.

[Oroshi]

http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~tsukuken/bokuto.html

This page says it takes its information from ZNKR materials.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

As I know it, kaeshi means to give something back... you can think of the 2nd kodachi kendo kata in which to kendo you do a kaeshi, but in iaido it would be called different, also, I´ve heard that tsuriage waza could also be considered a form of kaeshi... that makes sense too if you think of men-kaeshi/tsuriage-do. Just a thought.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In judo, all the counter-techniques are called kaeshi-waza. In kendo, the general term is oji-waza, and kaeshi-waza is a subset.

[Oroshi]

And the oji in oji-waza is 応じ, meaning 'response.' :)

[Mr.Tvola]

;255885']you can think of the 2nd kodachi kendo kata in which to kendo you do a kaeshi, but in iaido it would be called different,.

AFAIK the waza is called ukenagashi both in kendo (kodachi forms 1 and 2 )and iaido (seiteigata 3).

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

AFAIK the waza is called ukenagashi both in kendo (kodachi forms 1 and 2 )and iaido (seiteigata 3).

I asked that in the last seminar, I had heard it called both ways, so I was in doubt, the sensei explained that in iaido this movement was described as ukenagashi, but in kendo ukenagashi is not used, so it´s just called kaeshi. not meaning that it isn´t ukenagashi, the point is how is it called, just that.

[yoda-waza]

The nuances of meaning in Japanese kanji are not always made distinct when interpreted into English. In English, ukenagasu can be described as to ward off, parry or fend off, but that description easily applies to any of the oji-waza techniques whereas in Japanese oji-waza techniques are distinguished by more specific terms recognizable by their meaning in kanji. I would guess that Japanese terms for kendo techniques are as varied as Inuit terms for snow. It's beyond the scope of English to accurately translate in one or two words.

I can't read much kanji. It sucks to be illiterate.

[Kingofmyrrh]

The nuances of meaning in Japanese kanji are not always made distinct when interpreted into English. In English, ukenagasu can be described as to ward off, parry or fend off, but that description easily applies to any of the oji-waza techniques whereas in Japanese oji-waza techniques are distinguished by more specific terms recognizable by their meaning in kanji. I would guess that Japanese terms for kendo techniques are as varied as Inuit terms for snow. It's beyond the scope of English to accurately translate in one or two words.

I can't read much kanji. It sucks to be illiterate.

There's nothing about Japanese that makes this so - to the regular Japanese person these terms are just as vague. It's merely that a shared vocabulary has been built up among kendo practitioners. It's just like the way that to a football fan the term "cross" can only mean one type of pass, although from the word itself one could imagine many different types of movement. Kendo vocabulary has shifted a touch - if you check prewar texts they use terms slightly differently.

[yoda-waza]

Well, I have no reason to dispute that. I often I ask my Japanese wife for interpretation of kendo terminology and she is often stymied by the esoteric vocabulary, however, the pictographic nature of kanji helps her steer me toward the intent of the meaning. The English alphabet does not share that benefit.

[yoda-waza]

Edit:
Here's an example of what I mean. For some time I wondered what "kamae otoku" (this is how I always saw it spelled in Engish text) meant in Japanese, although I clearly knew what it was in kendo. My Japanese wife could not understand what I was saying until she saw it written in kanji whereupon she corrected the English spelling to "kamae-o toku" and explained what it meant for kamae in terms of the verb "tokasu". While that verb had various English interpretations, the kanji for "melt" or "dissolve" was the one that best fit the dissipation or relaxation of your kamae in kendo kata. Kanji was the vehicle for that understanding for a "regular Japanese person" with no kendo experience and, through her explanation, for an English-only person like me as well.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Edit:
Here's an example of what I mean. For some time I wondered what "kamae otoku" (this is how I always saw it spelled in Engish text) meant in Japanese, although I clearly knew what it was in kendo. My Japanese wife could not understand what I was saying until she saw it written in kanji whereupon she corrected the English spelling to "kamae-o toku" and explained what it meant for kamae in terms of the verb "tokasu". While that verb had various English interpretations, the kanji for "melt" or "dissolve" was the one that best fit the dissipation or relaxation of your kamae in kendo kata. Kanji was the vehicle for that understanding for a "regular Japanese person" with no kendo experience and, through her explanation, for an English-only person like me as well.


That is a very valid point. However, because I am having a slow day at work, I feel compelled to point out that this function is not required for the roman alphabet because, at least for the very few languages I knew, there are a limited number of homophones. On the other hand, there are zillions of homophones in Japanese, which means that kanji have to be used to distinguish between them. This seems to be one of the reasons why the Japanese language is unable to cast off the ill-suited kanji system in the same way that the Koreans have successfully done (needless to say there are many other reasons as well).

[Mr.Tvola]

;256142']I asked that in the last seminar, I had heard it called both ways, so I was in doubt, the sensei explained that in iaido this movement was described as ukenagashi, but in kendo ukenagashi is not used, so it´s just called kaeshi. not meaning that it isn´t ukenagashi, the point is how is it called, just that.

Well, my kendo kata manual says "ukenagashi" :-)