Thread in E-budo.com regarding Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu

[Sidharta]

I am starting this thread in response to http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37147

That was started by Mr. Colin Watkin-Hyakutake, a know member of e-budo and kendoworld foruns. He did that after deleting two previous threads on e-budo about Gosho ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. In both threads, he wrote false information regarding Shihan Gosho Motoharu and other members of the ryu.

The original threads are available in http://www.geocities.com/sidhartabr/

This talk was over for me since he deleted the two threads. But in the last days, more false information about the ryu have been posted, some direct addressed to me. My account on that forum was blocked, leaving me no choice but to answer in this other board, that shares many members with e-budo.
I apologize for the members of KendoWorld, but what is right must be done. I can't allow lies about Shihan Gosho Motoharu, and other masters of the ryu been spread.

It's very shameful to see a person who others in these foruns admire and who identifies himself as international representative making those claims. Gosho Sensei was the person who taught Imai Massayuke, the 10th Soke and master of Mr. Watkin's teacher.

Gosho Sensei was a close disciple of Aoki Soke, and received Menkyo Kaiden both in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Sekiguchi Ryu. Also, Aoki Soke choose him as Soke daiken of Niten Ichi ryu, with the mission to teach and represent the ryu with Kiyonaga Tadanao, the 9th Soke.

When Imai soke started practicing the ryu, in 1975, it was Gosho Sensei who taught him, because Kiyonaga Soke was hurt in his leg. This wound caused his death months later, in 1976. 8 mounths after, the Kiyonaga family choosed Imai Massayuke to stay as 10th Soke while Kiyonaga Fumiya, the son of the soke, would be the 11th, and asked Gosho Sensei to support him.

At that time, Imai Soke's knowledge of the ryu's techniques were limited. In the following years, Gosho Sensei taught him the ryu's curriculum. They splintered their ways after 1988. Imai Soke wanted to be alone in charge of the ryu and Gosho sensei had responsibilities with the Sekiguchi Ryu and his own Kendo and Iaido groups. Imai Soke didn't received Menkyo Kaiden at this time and not after this.

After this, Imai Soke changed the katas of the ryu deeply. All techniques were modified. The result was very different of the niten ichi ryu taught by Aoki Soke. Senior members of the ryu, like Kiyonaga Fumiya Sensei and Nishioka Tiyomi knew the original katas. Mr. Iwami Toshio started after this time and had no contact with the ryu's original form.

Some years ago, Imai Soke changed his mind about what was stabilized years earlier, and decided to have three successors instead of one. That decision splintered the ryu. After Kiyonaga Sensei passed away, in 2004, the great majority of the members of the ryu decided not to follow mr. Iwami, but to preserve the original form of the Kata with Gosho sensei. Some of these members belongs to the ryu for decades, before Mr. Iwami started. THEY are the ryu.

To see a student of Mr. Iwami denying that Gosho Sensei was the teacher of Imai Soke and saying in public things like that Gosho Sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden, that he had no permission to have his Ha and that Aoki Soke gave "a lot of papers" is very shameful.

Also, the website (www.hyoho.com) has wrong information about when Imai Soke started practicing and who his teacher were. It says that Imai Soke started in 1956 with Aoki Soke and later in 1967 with Kiyonaga Soke. This information is completely wrong. He started in 1975, and his teacher was Gosho Sensei.

It's wrong to put the blame of this in Imai Soke, saying that "was provided by Nippon Budokan as an article and lecture given for them by Imai Soke in Japanese". If Imai Soke made a mistake in his lecture, a student displaying it in his website (even with the soke's authorization) is a terrible error. This
was pointed months ago, but the responsible for the site continue to display this information. If he was so concerned with "Japanese duty, protocol and obligation", he would not expose Imai Soke's memories.

Gosho Sensei was Imai Soke's teacher. Today, Gosho Sensei has his own line and preserves Aoki Soke's teachings. End of history. There is no need to attack Gosho Sensei. Doing this is stupid, because it put in doubt the legitimacy of Imai Soke and therefore, Mr. Iwami Toshio.

Sidharta Rezende

[Paikea]

Methinks this will be a tough sell in this particular forum, as Watkin sensei is very highly regarded. Who are YOU?

[Kaoru]

Sidharta,

Don't you even START!

You got banned over there because you stirred up trouble on purpose.

The threads were deleted because you were giving out incorrect information and were and are, trying very hard to discredit Hyaku-sensei.

You are not a representative of the Ryu anymore than your teacher is. So, please keep your mouth shut!

You have absolutely NO right to come over here just to argue some more about this and cause more stupid bickering on purpose.

I am asking for this thread to be locked right away. Do not start a new one after it is. You caused trouble here on this issue a couple years ago here, and you need to just stop this nonsense.

One more peep and I imagine you'll be banned here, too. I for one, would be very happy if that happened! I'm sick of you going after Hyaku-sensei and the rest of the HNIR people.

Haven't you got anything else better to do?? Please, just go do whatever it is you do, and just leave them alone!

I'm letting Hyaku-sensei know about this thread.
(Since I already owe him a pm anyway.)

Kaoru

[Sidharta]

Lady,

My objective, here and there, was not cause trouble or try to discredit anyone. People asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. The answer provided by Mr. Colin had wrong and offensive information (such as saying that Gosho sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden).
This forum is open to everyone and is a reference in internet. I chose to discuss it here because it's a open forun and I have nothing to hide.
Why should I be banned and this thread locked? Because what I am telling trouble people who you like? All my statements are true. If you have doubt, why don't you ask Imai or Kiyonaga Sokes's families when he started practicing Niten ichi Ryu and who was his teacher? They all live in the same town that Gosho sensei.

As for the question by Mr. Hunter, I am Sidharta Rezende, I practice Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in Brazil with Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, student of Gosho Sensei wich was cited in the e-budo thread.

Sidharta Rezende

[Paikea]

As for the question by Mr. Hunter, I am Sidharta Rezende, I practice Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in Brazil with Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, student of Gosho Sensei wich was cited in the e-budo thread.Well...I'd say Watkin sensei has the credibility advantage here. No sale, I'm afraid.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Niten Institute is a controversial subject that has been discussed here before (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244&). I'll allow this thread to continue for a bit, so long as it remains civilised.

[Paikea]

Ah..Niten Institute... 'nuff said.

[Sidharta]

Mr. Gendzwill

Niten Institute was covered by Kendo Nippon last year. If after reading that anyone still has comments to do, this is not the right place.

I believe that the subject here is very different of the one discussed in the mentioned thread and I'd like to keep that subject. I agree that it would be good if it remains civilized.

Sidharta Rezende

[rottunpunk]

im not very knowledgable of who died when, so ill leave scott or colin to answer that one about folk from your ha training before imai sensei

the whole institution and patent thing is something even i am aware of vaguely.
do you have photos or a link to the club at all?
:p

[ZealUK]

Sidharta,

It seems you are making a lot of accusations, but you don't state any sources for your information. Did you get this information from Mr. Kishikawa, from Mr. Gosho?

There also seem to be some inconsistencies in what you write.

Wasn't Mr Kishikawa claiming to be a student of Imai soke not long ago? Aren't you now discrediting him after he has passed away?

This kind of discussion would not be well recieved in most koryu circles in Japan. Raising these kind of questions is taboo, especially in a public forum.

[ZealUK]

the whole institution and patent thing is something even i am aware of vaguely.

:p

Wasn't that patent issue in Argentina?

[rottunpunk]

probably, my jography is crap, along with my memory
:p

[Sidharta]

Mr. Bradshaw

The source was Gosho Sensei and other senseis of the ryu.
I know that this kind of discussion is not usual or appreciated. Please note that I don't like it either. I'd prefer to be doing more productive things.
But a serious accusation is to say that a 88 years respectable gentleman made himself a license. Worse if this person was your teacher's teacher.
Please tell me what inconsistencies you see and explain. English is not my primary language, as you certainly have noticed.

Sidharta Rezende

[Kingofmyrrh]

What's the point of this? You weren't there at the time, and neither were the members of this forum. There's no point whatsoever telling us this and no way of knowing who is "right"...

[Kaoru]

Lady,

My objective, here and there, was not cause trouble or try to discredit anyone. People asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.


Then why are you here again? You got banned and the threads deleted on e-budo because you didn't know when to stop. I feel that you do have an agenda, or, you'd leave this be.



The answer provided by Mr. Colin had wrong and offensive information (such as saying that Gosho sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden).


Can you even prove you are correct? You sure do talk alot, but you've never even provided legitimate and tangible
proof that anything is untrue. Hyaku-sensei wouldn't say something if it wasn't true.

I find it amazing that you still haven't figured out yet that Hyaku-sensei knows Imai-soke personally and is ALSO a very senior student of his-the most senior, if I remember right. And, Hyaku-sensei also knew the previous soke personally, as well.
So, you tell me how he could possibly lie when he knows both so personally. It's not possible. Hyaku-sensei wouldn't lie about anything having to do with the ryu, or anything else. That I know for sure.



This forum is open to everyone and is a reference in internet. I chose to discuss it here because it's a open forun and I have nothing to hide.


Yes, it's an open forum. However, it isn't for your personal use, to try to go after a well-respected sensei or ryu. Nor is it available for you to use it in order for you to continue a discussion from another forum just because you got banned and your threads deleted there and now you are upset about it.

You already had your say about this in the thread Neil-sensei provided above. So, in my view, I consider this subject a done deal and quite finished here, as well. I think others might agree.



Why should I be banned and this thread locked?


Why should the thread be locked? Because you don't know when to stop and all you do is go after ryu members and make claims you can't(won't?) prove.

I never said you should be banned, if you'll read my post again. I said:



I imagine you'll be banned here, too.


But, I notice the only thing you ever post about, is this subject, and complain. So, why shouldn't you be banned? It's an honest question.



Because what I am telling trouble people who you like? All my statements are true.


If they are so true why have you never provided legitimate and tangible evidence when asked?



If you have doubt, why don't you ask Imai or Kiyonaga Sokes's families when he started practicing Niten ichi Ryu and who was his teacher? They all live in the same town that Gosho sensei.


Hyaku-sensei knows the real answer unlike you. He knows Imai-soke personally! He already explained it on e-budo. You refused to listen. As usual.

Thing is, I have a feeling you won't stop until you win. So, this discussion will ultimately go nowhere, making this thread unproductive and useless.

I know for a fact that he's sick of this whole thing. Just go away and do what you do and stop this nonsense please.

Kaoru

[ZealUK]

Mr. Bradshaw

The source was Gosho Sensei and other senseis of the ryu.
I know that this kind of discussion is not usual or appreciated. Please note that I don't like it either. I'd prefer to be doing more productive things.
But a serious accusation is to say that a 88 years respectable gentleman made himself a license. Worse if this person was your teacher's teacher.
Please tell me what inconsistencies you see and explain. English is not my primary language, as you certainly have noticed.

Sidharta Rezende

The inconsistency I refer to is that you state that Imai soke started learning in 1975, then was made daijyudai soke sometime in 1976? Why on earth would he be made inheritor of a school after only one year?

Kingofmyrrh is right of course. This discussion has no relevance at all for most people on this board and only serves to diminish the reputations of the parties involved.

[Andoru]

*grabs popcorn*

I call 5 pages!

[Hyaku]

Your teacher Kishikawa "was" a distant student of Imai Soke who came on holiday visits/practices to Japan. At that time photographs and information were on your web site stating your teacher was the representative for the "Whole of South America"!. It also said if you remember (perhaps there are still threads around to prove it), that Kishikawa had a "Menkyo Kaiden" from Imai Soke. At that particular time you tried to discredit me by saying that I was not even a member of the ryu and some drivel about me having to apologize? (Threads on here to show this).

As time has passed by Imai Soke passed away handing on the ryu to his chosen successor. That point I wont even bother discussing. The whole of Japan Budo Circles are well aware of that and your posts on this forum or anywhere else will not change that!

Well before this your Japanese representative Kiyonaga had left the ryu to practice independantly. He even called me to arrange to meet me in of all places a 'motoway car park' to discuss me leaving Soke and going with him.

Then he died leaving you 'leaderless' You then had contact with an old and senior student of the ryu. When I say say senior I mean one of the oldest. You might be aware that there are 'other old senior members of the ryu in japan that have also done many national demonstrations but of course with their understanding of Musashi's Mu, do NOT make wild claims.

You first claimed Gosho was a "Shihan". A title we dont use. Now he has a Ha? The only recognized HA is the Noda Ha. You should be aware of the fact that after Aoki Soke died the Sekiguchiryu went their separate ways. Yamada Sensei of Sekiguchi ryu says that the only person he heard of getting a Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR was Yonehara Sensei. The only people he gave Menkyo Kaiden in Sekiguchi Ryu to was Kamegai Sensei and Yonehara Sensei. Kamegai Sensei gave Yamada Sensei his Menkyo Kaiden.

Your objective is simple. You were left leaderless and now seek credibilty through the internet to try and give Kishikawas bogus Menkyo credence.

A few points

1. I have every right to delete your posts. Contrary to what you tried to say before by trying to discredit me I am a menkyo of the recognized ryu.

2. The server for Hyoho.com has recently been hacked. Do you anything about this? Who on earth would want to hack it?


3. I am wondering exactly how much Gosho Sensei knows about the posts you are making. I would guess very little as he does not 'log on' like rest of us. Perhaps a phone call to him might be in order.

4. To change the subject partly I wondered, would you like to tell us about the business you belong to making money out of Kendo? Isnt ZNKR a member of Nippon Budokan and follows the Budo Charter. One of the first rules of that Charter is that no money should be made from Budo! The fact of matter is getting internet credibility is a necesary part of you making more money from "Selling Budo"

Watkin HNIR Menkyo



Lady,

My objective, here and there, was not cause trouble or try to discredit anyone. People asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. The answer provided by Mr. Colin had wrong and offensive information (such as saying that Gosho sensei gave himself a Menkyo Kaiden).
This forum is open to everyone and is a reference in internet. I chose to discuss it here because it's a open forun and I have nothing to hide.
Why should I be banned and this thread locked? Because what I am telling trouble people who you like? All my statements are true. If you have doubt, why don't you ask Imai or Kiyonaga Sokes's families when he started practicing Niten ichi Ryu and who was his teacher? They all live in the same town that Gosho sensei.

As for the question by Mr. Hunter, I am Sidharta Rezende, I practice Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in Brazil with Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, student of Gosho Sensei wich was cited in the e-budo thread.

Sidharta Rezende

[Fred27]

*grabs popcorn*

I call 5 pages!

I'd say Sidartha will bless us with maybe 5 more of his ususal informative posts before he tucks tail and runs (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91061&postcount=31) like he did 5 years ago on E-budo after his
"No HNIR sensei has ever heard of Colin"-post (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90554&postcount=21). Maybe we'll see a pretty little farewell speech this time too.

[Sparv]

*grabs popcorn*

Give me some please! I have the beers, but I forgot the popcorn.
But the links to older threads are killing all the suspense.

[Sidharta]

Mr. Colin

You can be sure that Gosho Sensei is aware of what is been discussed here. Please don't try to make it seems that I am the one who started this.

In 05/11, Mr. Anthony Smith asked about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu in e-budo.com. You replied:


in a word NO. Not just anyone can go around forming their own Ha (family line) without permission from Soke. This person has actually issued his own Menkyo Kaiden! He now seems to thing as the eldest surviving member of a previous Soke has the god given right to superiority. Thing is he was just a student before and was never recognized as such.

Gosho Sensei was told about what was being said. His son speaks English, and is also aware of what is being said.
The time when people could write anything they wanted in english knowing that the senseis could not understand is over, Colin.

The fact that Gosho Sensei received Menkyo kaiden in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Sekiguchi Ryu in Showa 30 (1955) was widely divulged by Kendo Nippon in his profile in the years 1982, 1992, 1993 and 1994. In 1961, Aoki soke designated him as Soke Daiken. Here are facts.

Now, are you going to deny that despite of what is written in your site, Imai Soke started practicing in 1975 and that it was Gosho Sensei who taught him since the beginning? Are you going to deny that Imai Soke didn't received Menkyo Kaiden?
Please answer these questions.


You first claimed Gosho was a "Shihan". A title we dont use. Now he has a Ha?
You don''t use, but it was used at Aoki Soke's time.
I think you really miss the point. Gosho Sensei don't need Mr. Iwami's authorization to have his Ha. He is a senior disciple of the eight soke and was the master responsible for teaching Iwami's teacher! It's Mr. Iwami who should have interest in learning with Gosho Sensei, since his Menkyo Kaiden was given by a person who didn't had one.


Yamada Sensei of Sekiguchi ryu says that the only person he heard of getting a Menkyo Kaiden in HNIR was Yonehara Sensei. The only people he gave Menkyo Kaiden in Sekiguchi Ryu to was Kamegai Sensei and Yonehara Sensei. Kamegai Sensei gave Yamada Sensei his Menkyo Kaiden.
Please, don't involve more people in this. Are you sure you want to involve Yonehara Sensei? Why don't you ask him first what he thinks of Gosho Sensei? Ask also Yonehara Sensei's opinion about the way the ryu's techniques have been demonstrated by Mr. Iwami's group.
And your statement is not correct. Kiyonaga Tadanao, also received Menkyo Kaiden by Aoki Soke.

If you want to change the subject and ask questions regarding Instituto Niten, feel free to open another thread.


At that particular time you tried to discredit me by saying that I was not even a member of the ryu and some drivel about me having to apologize? (Threads on here to show this).
Colin, you and I know what happened. I was avoiding this subject because I have no personal problem with you and people would think that I want to descredit you, wich I am not. In 2002, you were writing in e-budo as you do today, citing yourself as a senior member. When you first said that Sensei Jorge Kishikawa had no written authorization by Imai Soke, Kishikawa Sensei called Imai Soke, Kiyonaga sensei and also Mr. Iwami. None of them knew a Hyakutake Colin or had authorized anyone to post information regarding the ryu in internet forum.
After you presented your full name, they knew who was Mr. Watkins. But Kiyonaga Sensei and the others masters from Usa (including Imai Soke) didn't understood why whould him say these things, since he was only a occasional practitioner.
According to then, you were in contact with the ryu for only 5 years at that time, practicing only occasionally. That was confirmed by Miyamoto Sensei, Colin, who asked to you stop telling lies and respect Gosho Sensei (his words).
I'd really like to avoid make it seems personal, because I have no problem with you. I only won't allow more wrong information about the ryu be spread in the internet, above all if it concerns Gosho Sensei and Kishikawa Sensei.

Sidharta Rezende

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't know if y'all bothered to read Fredrik's link there, but it's to a 2002 post where Sidharta claims that Imai-sensei hasn't heard of Colin.

Here's a link (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9456) to a post from Kim Taylor announcing that Imai-sensei would attend the Guelph seminar in 2003, and here's another link (http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_watkin_1003.html) to a report from Colin on the seminar, complete with pictures of Imai-sensei at Niagra Falls.

Sidharta, give it up. Your teacher is a fraud.

[Big One]

I just wonder, is this conflict a result of separation within the ryu? I am just thinking about what happen just like Catholic and Protestant ryu:rolleyes: .

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, if you take Sidharta's point of view it is. Other people have stated the opinion that Niten Institute is making all of this up.

[Sidharta]

Gendzwill,

In February 2002, when those posts were made, Imai Soke, Kiyonaga Sensei and even Mr. Iwami Toshio said that there were none authorized to give informations about the ryu in the internet and they didn't recognized the name Hyakutake-Colin.
In the next days, after giving his full name, they figured who was he. Kiyonaga Sensei informed us that he had connection with the ryu for less than 5 years of noncontinuous training. All he had learned untill that was sassen (first kata).
Imais soke said that he was a sensei of other school that eventually shows up and practice a little.
In May of that year, Kishikawa Sensei and Wenzel Bohm went to Japan. Colin were called to resolve the question. In the presence of Kiyonaga Sensei, Mr.. Iwami and two other student of the ryu, Imai soke asked to him to apologize to Kishikawa Sensei for the misunderstandings. Instead of doing what was asked, he came with excuses and did not apologized as he should have done. It caused a great embarrassment between the presents, maybe with exception of Mr. Iwami. Now Colin denies that it happened.

Maybe Mr. Colin can tell us when exactly he started practicing, for declaring himself a senior student in 2002. According to the senseis that knew him at that time, it was 1998.

It's no surprise for me that a year later he went to Canada with Imai Soke and Mr. Iwami, since he is a native english speaker and student of Iwami. But to call yourself a senior student when all you learned was sassen is, in my opinion, exaggeration.

Sidharta Rezende

[Kenzan]

This thread makes my brain hurt.
Can anyone please summarize just what in the heck this is all about?

[Kenzan]

Please forgive my ignorance, but in what way (if any) does HyoHo Niten Ichiryu relate to Kendo?
I read the link Neil posted, and it mentions Yagyu and Musashi as sort of referrers.
??????

[Sidharta]

The inconsistency I refer to is that you state that Imai soke started learning in 1975, then was made daijyudai soke sometime in 1976? Why on earth would he be made inheritor of a school after only one year?

Kingofmyrrh is right of course. This discussion has no relevance at all for most people on this board and only serves to diminish the reputations of the parties involved.

Mr. Bradshaw

There were none else.

Kiyonaga soke died suddenly. There were no designated successor at that time.
Gosho Sensei suggested to the Kiyonaga family that Kiyonaga Fumiya, the son of the Soke, could be the soke. But 8 months passed without a decision.

Gosho sensei told that Imai asked him why he doesn't stayed as soke, and that he answered that Aoki Soke already made him Shihan and Soke Daiken of the 9th generation, and that it would be wrong stay as the 10th Soke. The right was a student of the 9th generation be the Soke.

After eight months, Kiyonaga Tadatoro, the brother of the soke, asked Gosho Sensei to teach Imai Massayuke, who would stay as 10th Soke. Kiyonaga Fumiya was going to be the 11th.

In the ceremony held a little later, to officially inaugurate the 10th generation, It was Kiyonaga Fumiya who gave the bokuto to Imai Massayuke. It was then said that one day, Imai Soke would give it back to Kiyonaga Sensei.

Sidharta Rezende

[Neil Gendzwill]

Colin's been in Japan since the early 90s, learning first Kage-Ryu and then HNIR. I can find references in TIN (the Iaido Journal) of him translating for Imai-sensei from 1995. I can also find references of Sidharta beating his sad drum for at least the last half-decade. This thread is closed.