Holding Shinken vs holding Shinia

[ahmed61086]

Remember I said I would be asking a lot of stupid questions from now on, lol, well here I go.

Just recently I have asking around to see what the differences were between holding and cutting with Shinken and with holding and "cutting" with shinia. Now, I have heard many times on this board some conflicting things, but I am going to talk about some things that I heard out in my area. Some people say that in Kenjutsu, that the way you hold the shinken is totally different than the way you hold the shinia. Yet, I have had other qualified people tell me that you hold them allmost Identically when cutting. Some say that the hands must have a squared grip while cutting with katana, while I have heard others say that this way of holding the sword is incorrect for doing cutting and that the way we kendoists grip our shinia or boken, is quite right, in the context of Kenjutsu.

I have heard of an Iaido sensei say that, the cut in Iaido is Identical to the way you should cut in kendo. Also, in the book of 5 rings, the way Miyamoto explains to hold the sword seems mostly similar to how we grip our shinia.

I would like those who have experience in both Kendo and Kenjutsu, to give me there understanding on this matter. If thats Ok.

Cheers.

[Decado]

Remember I said I would be asking a lot of stupid questions from now on, lol, well here I go.

Just recently I have asking around to see what the differences were between holding and cutting with Shinken and with holding and "cutting" with shinia. Now, I have heard many times on this board some conflicting things, but I am going to talk about some things that I heard out in my area. Some people say that in Kenjutsu, that the way you hold the shinken is totally different than the way you hold the shinia. Yet, I have had other qualified people tell me that you hold them allmost Identically when cutting. Some say that the hands must have a squared grip while cutting with katana, while I have heard others say that this way of holding the sword is incorrect for doing cutting and that the way we kendoists grip our shinia or boken, is quite right, in the context of Kenjutsu.

I have heard of an Iaido sensei say that, the cut in Iaido is Identical to the way you should cut in kendo. Also, in the book of 5 rings, the way Miyamoto explains to hold the sword seems mostly similar to how we grip our shinia.

I would like those who have experience in both Kendo and Kenjutsu, to give me there understanding on this matter. If thats Ok.

Cheers.

From the perspective of someone who has been doing both disciplines (kenjutsu and iaido) for a short while I'm not sure I'd want to use a shinken for kenjutsu. Get it slightly wrong and you could end up with slicing someone in two or slicing someone's limbs off (and they can be difficult to sew back). As for iaido, only people who have been practising for 5 to 10 years or more use a shinken and then, even then from I can gather, not everyone feels the urge to do so.

I'm only a relative beginner in both disciplines so I would be grateful if someone more experienced could comment on what Ahmed has said.

[neko kenshi]

One quick thing: Your left hand with a sword is held higher up, maybe half an inch to an inch from the kashira (Just above the knot holding the kissaki on) as opposed to kendo where I believe you hold the very bottom. As for cuts: IMVHO your generic kendo strike and actually cutting are as different as night and day (I'm sure this isn't as true for more advanced people). The tenouchi and total feel/motion is quite different, you'll have to start an iaido class to really get a feel for cutting with an actual sword (where of course you'll use an iaito, not a shinken, or you may lose some fingers). Hope that helped a bit.

[Oroshi]

Short answer: it depends on the style. There are hundreds of koryu and each has their own way of doing things. I study MJER iaido, and the first thing I had to do when I had a go at HNIR kenjutsu was learn a different way of holding the sword. So it depends on which school you are studying: go with what your sensei tells you.

[ahmed61086]

One quick thing: Your left hand with a sword is held higher up, maybe half an inch to an inch from the kashira (Just above the knot holding the kissaki on) as opposed to kendo where I believe you hold the very bottom. As for cuts: IMVHO your generic kendo strike and actually cutting are as different as night and day (I'm sure this isn't as true for more advanced people). The tenouchi and total feel/motion is quite different, you'll have to start an iaido class to really get a feel for cutting with an actual sword (where of course you'll use an iaito, not a shinken, or you may lose some fingers). Hope that helped a bit.

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

[ahmed61086]

Short answer: it depends on the style. There are hundreds of koryu and each has their own way of doing things. I study MJER iaido, and the first thing I had to do when I had a go at HNIR kenjutsu was learn a different way of holding the sword. So it depends on which school you are studying: go with what your sensei tells you.


Ok, that makes sense. But I dont have a kenjutsu sensei yet, with time though, I hope to remedie that.

[Nakura]

Remember I said I would be asking a lot of stupid questions from now on, lol, well here I go.

Just recently I have asking around to see what the differences were between holding and cutting with Shinken and with holding and "cutting" with shinia. Now, I have heard many times on this board some conflicting things, but I am going to talk about some things that I heard out in my area. Some people say that in Kenjutsu, that the way you hold the shinken is totally different than the way you hold the shinia. Yet, I have had other qualified people tell me that you hold them allmost Identically when cutting. Some say that the hands must have a squared grip while cutting with katana, while I have heard others say that this way of holding the sword is incorrect for doing cutting and that the way we kendoists grip our shinia or boken, is quite right, in the context of Kenjutsu.

I have heard of an Iaido sensei say that, the cut in Iaido is Identical to the way you should cut in kendo. Also, in the book of 5 rings, the way Miyamoto explains to hold the sword seems mostly similar to how we grip our shinia.

I would like those who have experience in both Kendo and Kenjutsu, to give me there understanding on this matter. If thats Ok.

Cheers.

I'd already been been practicing kendo for 4 years when I started iai so, when I first held my iaito, I used the same grip as in kendo and I still do (ie thumb and index fingers making a 'v' shape pointing back at me). I've also heard a variety of thoughts on kendo vs iai grip but any other grip than a kendo one would feel odd to me, especially a 'square' grip. It's possibly just habit...

Just my two yen.

[Oroshi]

Just wondering: what exactly is a 'square grip'?

[dohrt]

I am a n00b in both kendo and iaido, but here are my thoughts on this topic...

Is the way of using a shinken (or iaito) versus the way of using a shinai the same? Depends on the style of kendo . . . some styles of kendo seem to emphasize striking and angles of "cutting" that are nothing like iai as I know it. Other types of kendo emphasize hand motions that are strikingly similar to iaido.

However, while the school I call home seems to strongly believe in the union of iaido and kendo, even within these teachings I find subtle differences. Yes, the fingers both make an upside-down "V" in gripping the sword. Yes, in both cases the pinky and ring fingers are the "gripping" fingers while the other fingers only tense up momentarily when cutting (part of tenouchi), but in kendo, the pinky covers up the tsuka-gashira, and based on the mechanics of the length of the tsuka on a shinai, your hands are relatively far apart. Conversely, on a shinken (or iaito) in our school (the ryu we study is Muso Shinden Ryu), the hands are only an inch or so apart, and the left hand pinky finger is resting on the top part of the knot in the tsuka-ito (don't know the name of this) just below the kashira. Also, in kendo, "cuts" still seem more "forward" and "pushing through" whereas in iaido, cuts are more "circular" and "pulling in". Also, in kendo, the stance of the feet is very close, whereas in iaido the stance of the feet is more spread out.

Nonetheless, even with these differences, I feel that the practice of kendo and iaido are two halves of the same coin, two wheels of the same cart (to borrow from old sayings). For example: tenouchi. If you develop strong tenouchi in one (iaido or kendo) you have it at your whim in the other. Both are shadows cast on a different part of the wall from the same original thing, and both therefore offer incomplete reflections of what was once a complete thing (though this in itself is quite arguable, but I digress). However, in today's society the complete budo (or whatever you want to call a fully martial lifestyle) is impractical, illegal, and impossible. Therefore, the only glimpses we can catch of the traditions that linger on in their continually reincarnated forms are through such pursuits as iaido, kendo, and ... maybe the third "thing" is tameshigiri (I don't consider this part of iaido, really - it's mainly a study in hasuji and other technical lines of what the blade does, though it is useful in helping iaidoka to see their own flaws in blade management, and it's also useful for kendoka in a similar way).

While cutting is a component of both iaido and kendo, the focus diverges towards different aspects of japanese swordsmanship, namely in self-awareness / kinesthetic qualities (iaido) and perhaps the communication and empathy one can have with an opponent (kendo). So I suppose I see three wheels to the same cart in cutting (tameshigiri), body control / awareness (iaido) and opponent management and interaction (kendo). Or maybe you could even say that tameshigiri is simply the human need to destroy and be effective at it (ever see the beauty in the shark?), iaido is just meditation (zen influence?) and kendo is just a sport (points !)

In the end, all are about the sword - how to avoid breaking it when it's used, how to responsibly deal with the power that comes from it, or in some ways just by avoiding chopping off parts of your own body, yet in other ways knowing when and when not to commit to using a sword. To me, they are all various roads that eventually lead to a very similar place, but what very different roads they are! If you have ever heard of the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant, think about it. Each blind man touched a different part of the elephant (side, tusk, trunk, knee, ear, tail) and disputed with the others another about what an elephant really was. Such is the way of the japanese sword, it seems.

Be aware, of course, that I've only been studying kendo and iaido for a very very short time, and have had VERY little exposure to tameshigiri (once formally and in person, to be exact). I'm also an incredible idealist deep within the cynical crusty armor I've built around my psyche which pragmatically and methodically guides me in this world. Not to mention, I'm too young (many scholars say true understanding happens at 40 or more) to really know a gosh-darn anyways. So I am probably very wrong on a great many things when it comes to these subjects.

Still, I thought I'd share yet another perspective on this whole set of concepts.

Time for more keiko !

[ZealUK]

As Oroshi stated before, it depends on the ryuha you study. Each has its own methods for specific reasons. For example Katori Shinto Ryu wrap the left hand's little finger round the end of the tsuka if I remember correctly. Of course tsuka size is not uniform so this had to be accounted for as well.

Shinai and mogito/shinken are completely different tools. The length, weight, size and shape of the tsuka, etc are all very different. Also you don't tend to wear kote holding a shinken.

Find a good teacher, do what he says, then think about it when you've spent enough time practicing.

Ahmed, are you in New Jersey? Have you seen this dojo...

http://www.shutokukan.org/index.html

[ren_kuroda]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.
As someone who did kendo and now does iai and cuts regularly (iai cutting as well) I can assure you that the use of a shinai to score a point in kendo and the use of a shinken in the test cutting of a target are more different than similar...but don't take my word for it. Find a dojo and start training.

Regards,

r e n

[h2o]

I've heard fairly advanced iaido people say "look at <kendo-nanadan>'s cuts, it is exactly how we do it". So as someone says, it seems to rely somewhat on level.

Personally, my kendo- and iaido cuts are very different, but then again: I am not high level ;)

[Kenshi]

I had a go at HNIR kenjutsu was learn a different way of holding the sword.

Or the "skinny stick."

Im going to modify another of Oroshis statments: "Short answer: it depends on the style" to "Short answer: it depends on the style, the person, the cut, the tool you use (sword, bokuto, chopsticks) and the situation."

ZealUK -> id recommend one to the other but not the other way round.

Ahmed -> instead of the "stupid questions" on the forum, get thee to a dojo. You already have beautiful kendo (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=257209&postcount=31) so theres nothing in your way. oh, and listen to Ren.

[Iai-Bob]

Surely in general iaido and kendo the grip should be very similar i.e. the "V" of your index finger and thumb alligned along the back of the tsuka.

I think the difference to me seem to be more about the "cut". In my experience kendoka use more of a strike than an actual cut. This may change as they progress and have more experience with tameshigiri and/or exposure to iai.

But that's not necessarily true for everyone...

[ahmed61086]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Im looking into a dojo around my area. The one ZealUK put up, Im going to check it out, and there is also a Dojo in NY NY, but I might have to just go to the one whihch is most convenient. We will see. I might start in a month or in a year, but I am definitly going to try and practice some type of JSA other than kendo. Its something that realy holds my interest.

Untill then, no more stupid questions. :nervous:

[ScottUK]

but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka.How odd - I have heard (and seen) the exact opposite. Kendoka do not cut like how an iaidoka would. Tameshigiri comes much easier to the iaidoka.

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.

[pgsmith]

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.
Thank you Scott! If this damned forum would let me, I'd give you reps for that statement!

[Charles Mahan]

I gave him one for you :)

[SheBear]

I would not recommend tameshigiri or flow drills with bokken with a kendo grip. I don't exactly know how much this differs from place to place, but everythign I have scene is as follows (courtesy of Cruise's sloppy technique):


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/RayneHart/th_untitled-1.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/RayneHart/untitled-1.jpg)

The guy on the right is holding his bokken correctly. The index finger and middle finger control the movement and offer some leeway for the sword so that not too much pressure is put on the hand when swords make contactin battle. The pinky and the finger next to it (whatever it's called!) are both tight to offer resistance and further control.
The left hand is right near the kashira, the two hands far apart so as to give good levarage for the movement of the sword. The left hand should be doing most, if not all, of the cutting - the right hand controls movement.

Mr Cruise has what I call the meat grip. This is what i see and do in kendo, and it's fine for shinai. As`a matter of fact, anything else would be impeded by the kote. Because the righ hand is in such a position, flow drills or sparring could do damage to the hand, or at least make it very sore. Same goes for tameshigiri. This is not the type of grip you should use in iai, especially if you're doing it in conjunction with weapons work with bokken.

My grounds? Watching and reading alot and practicing Kendo, Musoshinden Iai and weapons.

[SangWoooKim]

Come by the dojo, and you'll see the difference.

[ahmed61086]

Echoing all the above: love your new sword - have intimate moments with it if you are that way inclined - but don't practice with it until someone shows you how.

Hehe, you dont want to know! (j/k, j/k)






Come by the dojo, and you'll see the difference.


Soon, hopefully.

[babayaga]

Untill then, no more stupid questions. :nervous:

No, no, no. Keep asking stupid questions. It keeps you from doing stupid actions.

-Beth

[ScottUK]

At least stupid questions suggests a thought process. Maybe the YouTube brigade could benefit from a bit of that...

I heard 'beautiful kendo' mentioned - how's your practice going, Ahmed?

[ahmed61086]

At least stupid questions suggests a thought process. Maybe the YouTube brigade could benefit from a bit of that...

I heard 'beautiful kendo' mentioned - how's your practice going, Ahmed?

Pretty good. Im getting some good feedback.

I just need to get situated with my new job so I can get to the Dojo more often. I think I can pull it off.

[neko kenshi]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

Huh, that surprises me. Maybe it has to do with the level of the practitioners? Has anyone else seen this sort of a comparison (Aside from those who have already reported on it).

[Manuka]

Im not saying you are wrong, or that Iaidoka dont know how to cut, but someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka. This is just one thing that I have been told about that shows that the kendo cut is similar to a real cut used in tameshigiri. And Like I said, there was a high ranking Iaido sensei that said that the two cuts are the same, or atleast should be the same in mechanics.

I would be intrested in more information about that test.

I have trouble with the credibility as Iai is all about the follow through of the cut whereas kendo the tenouchi is immediate upon contact. A Men does not follow through to the navel as in Iai.

This would have the kendoka automatically applying the brakes as soon as the ha met the target, or trying to ovrride all that training for the cut through.
My Iai Sensei had us perform cuts on lightly held newspaper sheets to demontrate correct cut versus tearing the paper.

[chidokan]

I think that test would be interesting to analyse... did they use 'skinny' mats, what levels/grades were present, did they all use the same sword... As an observation, I have seen a (female) godan iaidoka fail to cut mats, yet an ungraded aikidoka (6' guy) went straight through first cut on being shown/told what to do. This suggests he may have powered through in contrast to the lady, but was not the case. He just used the hip when I told him to. Note when the lady did it only three of us cut first time, about another 20 or so needed two or three attempts, and there was a mix of both kendo and iai people. So aybe the sword was a bit blunt...
I do not consider tameshigiri to be a good test of swordsmanship, although it can be a good test of skill. By that I mean the target doesnt move, you can take your time, measure distance etc. For the USA test I reckon the kendoka would use a kote strike, which would be ideal for cutting thin mats. Six mats plus and the results would change....

Kote ruin any chance I have of applying correct hand shape to a tsuka, but I guess unless I buy those flat sided shinai and the moulded type kote. Both iai and kendo like large circular cuts, but you cannot apply tenouchi for a long time in kendo, and in fact I think I have ended up applying it above my head and stop it before it hits the target. Otherwise the poor guy opposite would be going home with a headache and I would end up with broken shinai... So the only vertical cut I would say is identical is the kote strike. 'Do' I would count as a good iai cut also, but not 'men'.

[Bucho]

someone told me recently, that there was a test where they took Iaidok and Kendoka, and had then all try tameshigiri, and the kendoka had a much easier time cutting than the Iaidoka.


I'd also be interested in hearing more about this, I'm mostly inclined to think it's a kumdo urban legend.

[Peter West]

I don't do tameshi giri as such often. However in 1989 (when I was a mere 5th Dan) I tested my sword on some tree branches, starting on harmless 1/2 inch diameter and working up as my confidence grew. The last cut left some scuff marks on the blade and removed a tiny piece of the cutting edge. That branch was nearly 3 inches diameter and cut at 45° .

The possible problem with iaidoka doing tameshi giri for the first time is not so much poor cutting technique per se than fear of damaging the blade.

[ScottUK]

I'd also be interested in hearing more about this, I'm mostly inclined to think it's a kumdo urban legend.I agree. My experience is the absolute opposite to this. While kendoka will learn to do decent tameshigiri just as fast as an iaidoka, the natural cutting action in iai is more suited to tameshigiri than kendo waza.

[chidokan]

If you think about it, it iis down to the shape of the cut done by people. In order to cut the sword needs to slice forward/backwards as well as down. f you consider how kendoka cut, they are going forward whilst cutting down, so get a little slice movement included. Seitei iai emphasises this 'forward slice', so the iaidoka who solely practises seitei would cut better than the kendoka. I compared this cut with my style of koryu 'backwards slice', and found that backwards cut cut more deeply. Cuts were made vertically into a three mat roll. I am going to examine this further when my seitei buddy is over from Oshita sensei's dojo in March by getting him to cut the mat in seitei and koryu style to see if that data confirms this observation. I need to think on this further to try and understand the implications of movement and body balance etc. If anyone else can try this out I would be interested in hearing what happened.....

[ScottUK]

Hmmm, I'd be interested to hear more on this. Its kinda contradictory to what I have been taught.

[chidokan]

try it out and see what you think. I always compare it to cutting a joint of beef...If you press the knife down vertically, it doesn't work (obviously...:laugh:) Push the knife and it slices, pull and it also slices. However with a sword, because you are using more body muscles, have a think on this. Is it easier to pull something towards you, or push it away, if you can't put your body weight behind it? Like, say, a big tree trunk saw. Time to bring in the muscle structure experts...
I have always been taught to place the blade then pull the blade towards me, but would be interested in the more senior guys on here having a play with a few mats to see what they think...

[Kim Taylor]

Seitei iai uses a forward slice Tim? I must have missed that lesson somewhere along the line, I cut on the draw in all the various arts I do. The only time I've thought about cutting on a forward cut was when I was considering very aggressive kendo cuts with a huge jump forward but I don't think that works either, I'd have to be moving forward faster than I can cut down and I don't think my left achilles could accelerate my weight that fast.

Kim Taylor

[Peter West]

If you think about it, it iis down to the shape of the cut done by people. In order to cut the sword needs to slice forward/backwards as well as down. f you consider how kendoka cut, they are going forward whilst cutting down, so get a little slice movement included. Seitei iai emphasises this 'forward slice', so the iaidoka who solely practises seitei would cut better than the kendoka. I compared this cut with my style of koryu 'backwards slice', and found that backwards cut cut more deeply. Cuts were made vertically into a three mat roll. I am going to examine this further when my seitei buddy is over from Oshita sensei's dojo in March by getting him to cut the mat in seitei and koryu style to see if that data confirms this observation. I need to think on this further to try and understand the implications of movement and body balance etc. If anyone else can try this out I would be interested in hearing what happened.....

Like Scott and Kim I don't think this is altogether correct. While there are certain boundaries that are acceptable in Seitei, the cut is fundamentally the same as koryu. That is to say the cutting action is the same, shape of arc is the same, te-no-uchi is the same. My Jikiden (and therefore, being from the same lineage, Scott and Kim's, presumably,) cuts, like seitei, travel through 180° from kaburi to kime, whereas some older style, such as Iwata Sensei's Tosa style (and therefore, presumably, yours) travel through 180° from kaburi to the point of contact with the target. However, once your sword has begun its cutting motion and has raised from kaburi to horizontal, from that point your cuts and mine are the same shape.
Other ko-ryu, other lineages within jiken too, may be different, nevertheless, those styles of cutting are acceptable in Seitei providing kaburi is restricted to slightly above horizontal and the cut ends at the prescribed height for the kata..