UH OH! Nito info available to the masses! Debate time.

[Phorest]

http://www.e-bogu.com/keprivnitswe.html

E-bogu has produced a complete Nito-ryu video with Matthew Raymond as the instructor.

What does this mean for people who were thinking about learning it before and were only limited in that they didn't have an instructor? Now people can just buy a video and learn Nito! *gasp* What is the world coming to?! :tongue:

I bet we have a whole bunch of new Nito Kenshi on our hands here int he US pretty soon. Or maybe I'm just over-reacting. I mean...I'm tempted to order it myself, and I'm not even shodan! :rambo:

What do you guys think?

[Hongsermeier]

I think it could be a good starting point. However, without a sensei there will still be many unanswered questions.

[alexpollijr]

You're over reacting.
The only problem I can see are people below shodan trying to pick up a stick in each hand because it 'looks cool'. Besides, Nito requires other atributes like physical strenght and endurance, and that alone will frustrate most people.

- Alexandre

[mingshi]

... people below shodan trying to pick up a stick in each hand because it 'looks cool'.

Same around here. It seems like everyone is moving to Jodan/Nito after the Worlds. I have no idea what they are thinking... :(

[Old Warrior]

"Nito requires other atributes like physical strength and endurance, and that alone will frustrate most people."

Call me Frustrated. We do bouting at the end of class. By then, my daito arm is just about worn out and I am having trouble stopping my cuts. Fortunately, we do suburi before we put on men so I get a couple of minutes to "rest" my arm before we start with yung yuk (kirakaeshi). It used to be that doing suburi was a matter of good form and aerobic conditioning. Doing it with one hand involves multiple amounts of strength and endurance. The arm gives out before the lungs and sloppiness sets in with fatigue. (PS - I already ordered the tape)

[Phorest]

Yeah thats the main problem I'd have with it. I'm skinny...my arms are WEAK. I think trying to lug around both shinai for a whole practice would just kill me.

[elfboy]

Monkey see, monkey do? Probably not in this case - I doubt that most would actually go out after watching this video and realistically expect to be able to master nito kendo. Still - a little taste of what the more advanced level kendo focuses on is harmless and $49.99 :silly:. Just out of curiosity, at what kyu/dan is nito-ryu fighting introduced, or does it vary from dojo to dojo. From what I know people at least 2-dan up have been doing it.

[alexpollijr]

'Elfboy'

As far as I know there's no set grade to be 'allowed' or 'introduced' to Nito or Jodan. I remember that Itokazu ( moocow ) once mentioned something about shodan in California. Sounds good to me.

- Alexandre

[Nishi]

Just out of curiosity, at what kyu/dan is nito-ryu fighting introduced, or does it vary from dojo to dojo. From what I know people at least 2-dan up have been doing it.

It dosnt matter what your rank is, if your sensei says so, then its usually good enough...

I have heard many times however that a good foundation in chudan is a better start before moving to different kamae.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm skinny...my arms are WEAK.
Oddly enough, nobody says that about Matthew...

[Phorest]

Thats what I mean. Matthew Raymond is built. I...am not. Hence, I probably won't be getting into nito anytime soon.

[Yamakura]

Nito-ryu Kendo is very rare even in Japan, I don't understand why people would like to explore this without understanding the fundamentals of Chudan no kamae. Toda Sensei, a very strong nito and Jodan player, explained that to perform nito ryu correctly you must understand the fundamentals of Chudan no kamae and Jodan no kamae. It isn't really a question of "rank", but rather a question of your understanding of Kendo.

[Nishi]

We do play about with nito and jodan at our dojo from time to time but more so for exposing the weakness of these kamaes in ji-geiko, as appossed to being shocked by them in shiai. I have had an interest in jodan latley for this very purpose.

If you've never fenced these kamae before, they can make very short work of you. One of my sensei says that "once you know your way through the nito player its not so difficult".... this video should shed some light on the nito techniques for us chudan fencers as well.

[hobbit]

That still won't stop some buying the video as a diy course - i knew a guy a few years back, who bought a sword and a book and thought he could become an iaido "expert" :nervous: that way. afaik, he's still out there somewhere . . .

[swrdply400mrela]

I was eating dinner with my sensei and another one of our senior members about two days ago in a Fatburger. On the TV's in there, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was playing on Fox. While we were eating, the scene where the two girls duke it out in an armory came up. At one point Michelle Yeoh picks up a spear and starts going at it. At this point my sensei comments, "We would have a problem with if we fought against the spear with our long swords." Of course I had to ask him what he meant. He said we'd have to use a short sword if we were to fight against a spear as well as in enclosed spaces with/without obstacles, such as the restaurant.

Then I asked him how a one handed spear could defend against a spear, which would carry much more momentum. Well, he then said, "I wish we knew someone experienced with the spear because I would like to show you." :shocked:

It was this way I found out that there was even a style for a short sword. Personally, the attraction to a short, one handed sword was touched on by my sensei: it seems to have more of an application to a real life fight with being in obstacles, and finding an object of that length would be more realistic. But then again, I haven't been in a fight since the 6th grade.

[moocow65]

hey yamakura... that's probably one of the most intelligent comments i ever read on this forum.. probably because that's exactly the way i feel hahah. forget about what rank you are. i started nito when i was ni-dan, and am planning on being san-dan for life. it's all about how much you understand kendo. i can't stress this enough.. i've said this in other threads and i'll say it in this one: YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND SEME!!! and just as important would be that you have to be physically capable of holding two shinai. i was able to teach myself nito with help from some sensei, but that was only because i had enough knowledge of seigan and jodan to apply it to nito. if i had a video that would have helped alot too. well, i did have a video of toda sensei in a tournament. so my advice for all you future nito people out there: buying the video would be a pretty good idea, but don't immediately start practicing nito. practice the basics and ONLY the basics at home, build your arm strength, and practice SEME with SEIGAN at the dojo. until you've fairly mastered these three aspects, don't even think about doing keiko using nito. again, it's not about rank or how long you've been doing kendo, it's how well you understand kendo. oh yeah, one more thing. once you go nito you can never return to seigan. well, you can go back and forth between the two kamae if you don't mind sucking at both kamae for the rest of your life.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So you don't use chudan at all anymore? I know Matthew has to use it a fair bit as he's one of the instructors at U of T.

[xvikingx]

Back to the subject of the video... Personally I don't see the problem. No sensei is going to let a beginner with a video practice nito (at least I certainly hope not). And besides, it is good business for the shop. Can't condemn this product because some Musashi wanna be's may buy this video. I think we should feel lucky that such material is available to us in English. I really admire E-bogu for really being its own shop and not just a retailer for Japanese/Korean goods. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

[Phorest]

Yes...I have say that E-bogu is doing a really good job for themselves by putting out their own products gearred towwards US/English speaking kendoka. I think we are lucky to have such a great resource.

And...if I had 50 bucks I guarantee you I'd be ordering that video right now! But...I'm just a poor daigaku-sei. :(

[xvikingx]

And...if I had 50 bucks I guarantee you I'd be ordering that video right now! But...I'm just a poor daigaku-sei. :(

ha ha ha... I hear that. :ko:

[JSchmidt]

I ordered it, despite having no plans of doing nito (Well, no immediate plans, anyway), but mainly out of curiosity, as I got very limited exposure to it.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

There is a limited amount of the Master's time any one person can expect in class. I always have a bunch of questions that go unasked.
I figure I should do what I'm told and eventually I'll get around to learning all I need to know. The tape covers everything from distance, to the role of the shoto in every cut - clearly and simply. There is even a discussion on zanshin for nito players. Also, the point is made, over and over, that if something feels right and it is in keeping within the principles of good Kendo - go for it. Raymond Sensei says that you can do nito with the daito in either hand and you can lead with either foot. His footwork is beautiful to watch and scarey in its consistency. His control over the shinai is machine-like.

The tape covers every basic point that you can imagine. I had no idea that one could actually control the shinai well enough to do kote men, but Raymond Sensei makes it look easy. The importance of proper distance and what that distance should be was patiently explained. With the shoto in the lead hand I have a tendancy to move forward until the shoto is almost touching the opponents shinai. But, it was carefully explained that you should maintain the same distance as if you were in chudan (which is back another 6" to a foot).

After 8 months of doing nito I have a small sense of what its about and the tape substantially increased my understanding of what I have been doing. Most of all it set the bar for good nito Kendo and I could see how poor my own technique is in comparison. As Moocow said in his post the most important first step is to become strong enough to wield the shinai with crisp form for a sustained period. I'm trying, but these heat packs on my elbows are evidence that I need to watch the tape a few more times and get back to practice.

[KATSUJIN]

oooh....i like it....i may buy the tape too
i mean seriously, this is a good thing for people who dont understand japanese.....and not tat I am going train in nito-ryu...( i doubt i will have the chance since my chudan needs so much work..and i like chudan :D) but it would be interesting to learn something new.....

[KhawMengLee]

Hey Moocow just got this book Musashi No Ken! Its all in japanese so I'm getting a sempai to translate it. But wont be starting nito for at least a year, maybe learn some basics from one of the sensei here who practices it(if he is willing to teach).

http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10616

At the moment I'm building up arm strenght for katate waza from chudan.
Having to also adjust maai and seme doing this...

Ah, well, got 3 years to the next WKC...maybe we meet each other in the shiaijo both in nito eh?

[Yamakura]

moocow, thank you for understanding, I saw a bit of your match on TV, it was very beautifull Kendo. Please keep training the way you do, you will no doubt be a very great Kendoka.

Yamakura

[Ariga]

Back to the subject of the video... Personally I don't see the problem. No sensei is going to let a beginner with a video practice nito (at least I certainly hope not). And besides, it is good business for the shop. Can't condemn this product because some Musashi wanna be's may buy this video. I think we should feel lucky that such material is available to us in English. I really admire E-bogu for really being its own shop and not just a retailer for Japanese/Korean goods. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

Thank you for your valuable coments. Yes, we are always trying very hard to improve the Kendo community. This KP4 is also a result of many of our customer's requests. So many of our customers asked us if there is a good Nitoryu instruction material, so I asked my team mate Matthew to help me making this video. He is one of the best in Nitoryu player I know, and without his help (flying all the way to California from Toronto, and spending hours filming and editing the video) the making of this video would not have been possible. Also, I would like to thank Koby Shimada, our video director, for his long nights in producing this video. (Taro Ariga CEO e-bogu.com Inc.)

[Hyaku]

Back to the subject of the video... Personally I don't see the problem. No sensei is going to let a beginner with a video practice nito (at least I certainly hope not). And besides, it is good business for the shop. Can't condemn this product because some Musashi wanna be's may buy this video. I think we should feel lucky that such material is available to us in English. I really admire E-bogu for really being its own shop and not just a retailer for Japanese/Korean goods. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

The problem lies with the fact that someone would be duped into buying this thinking it actually has any connection with Niten Ichiryu.

It is indeed fortunate the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu spend most of their time concerned with practice and study and are not really concerned with any cowboy activities. Otherwise I can see a few court cases arise over what is a clear case of misrepresentation.

Hyaku

[Hongsermeier]

"The problem lies with the fact that someone would be duped into buying this thinking it actually has any connection with Niten Ichiryu. "

I don't think that will happen. I have been to their store on many occasion and the staff is very good about answering all your questions and explaning things to the customers. I have other tapes from them and look forward to buying more. :cross_eye

[xvikingx]

The problem lies with the fact that someone would be duped into buying this thinking it actually has any connection with Niten Ichiryu.

It is indeed fortunate the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu spend most of their time concerned with practice and study and are not really concerned with any cowboy activities. Otherwise I can see a few court cases arise over what is a clear case of misrepresentation.

Hyaku

I don't think someone confusing a nito kendo instruction video for a niten ichi-ryu kenjutsu video could hardly be called misrepresention. I would say it's a clear case of a fool and his/her money. "Duped"?! In what way does e-bogu try to "dupe" someone into thinking that video is about niten ichiryu. I am also not quite sure what the whole "cowboy activities" thing is abouit either. :ermm:

[Ginsbork]

swrdply400mrela,
It sounds like you might be interested in Jukendo and Tankendo. You can read more about at http://www.koryubooks.com/library/mskoss12.html by Skoss Sensei, 5th Dan in Jukendo. This might as close as we can get to the short-spear in the USA.

[Hyaku]

I don't think someone confusing a nito kendo instruction video for a niten ichi-ryu kenjutsu video could hardly be called misrepresention. I would say it's a clear case of a fool and his/her money. "Duped"?! In what way does e-bogu try to "dupe" someone into thinking that video is about niten ichiryu. I am also not quite sure what the whole "cowboy activities" thing is abouit either. :ermm:

If there is no misreprentation why mention Musashi anyway? Is there some similary here between the way its done?

Hyaku

[Ginsbork]

I found another link on Nito Kendo at http://kendo.amsg.free.fr/nito.htm, written by Tetsuji Sensei. If you are unable to read French, you can use http://babelfish.altavista.com/ to translate most of it.

Whether you choose itto or nito, progress, making it as beautiful as the flat surface of a lake at dawn before the wind rises to wake the water.

[xvikingx]

If there is no misreprentation why mention Musashi anyway? Is there some similary here between the way its done?

Hyaku

Don't ask me, I don't work for them. I would suggest directing your inquiries towards e-bogu. I am sure they have an e-mail address, phone number, and/or snail-mail address where they can be reached. Since you seemed to be so concerned about this matter, maybe you could help them clear up the confusion. :ermm:

[Nanbanjin]

http://www.e-bogu.com/keprivnitswe.html

E-bogu has produced a complete Nito-ryu video with Matthew Raymond as the instructor.

What does this mean for people who were thinking about learning it before and were only limited in that they didn't have an instructor? Now people can just buy a video and learn Nito! *gasp* What is the world coming to?! :tongue:

I bet we have a whole bunch of new Nito Kenshi on our hands here int he US pretty soon. Or maybe I'm just over-reacting. I mean...I'm tempted to order it myself, and I'm not even shodan! :rambo:

What do you guys think?

The following Japanese link gives excellent information on ni-toh.
http://www6.vc-net.ne.jp/%7Eisiyosi/

Even though the page is in Japanese, please have a play with the links.
In partucular,
Ni-toh waza video files
http://www6.vc-net.ne.jp/%7Eisiyosi/waza.htm

Kamae photos
http://www6.vc-net.ne.jp/%7Eisiyosi/kamaekata.htm

How to make a kodachi (photos)
http://www6.vc-net.ne.jp/%7Eisiyosi/kamaekata.htm

[midnightdawn]

If I had the money, I would just buy the video to have a better understanding of how nito works. Even though it is rare, there is always the chance that you could end up fighting someone that uses nito. Just a greater knowledge of it would prove helpful, if you have never had the opportunity to practice against anyone in nito.

Also, I would love to see a fight where both people use nito. I've only seen ones where only one person does.

[Inouye02]

I have video of Moocow and mrikuiku doing nito against opponents using nito also ...

[mystic_kendoka]

do u have a link for it?

[Hai_hai]

Look, nito videos are great but if you really want to be good at it, just contact me for personal lessons. HAI.... YAAAAA!

[Inouye02]

when i find a way to download it , i'll put it in

[ALI G]

Look, nito videos are great but if you really want to be good at it, just contact me for personal lessons. HAI.... YAAAAA!

For Lezzonz.....Youz can contaktz himz at 1-800-IQUIT-KENDO

Or e-mailz at: internetzkendozmaster@ialreadyzquitzkendozbutimtal kingzoutzmyazz.com

[moocow65]

Thanks Nabanjin for the links. I lost those links a long time ago, and couldn't find that website anymore. It's a really good site. Hmm... maybe I should start a webpage that shows all the techniques and strategies of the 5 main nito kamae that I made-up/borrowed.

[Nanbanjin]

Thanks Nabanjin for the links. I lost those links a long time ago, and couldn't find that website anymore. It's a really good site. Hmm... maybe I should start a webpage that shows all the techniques and strategies of the 5 main nito kamae that I made-up/borrowed.
No worries. Good luck with your website!